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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 29225 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: June 30, 2010, 04:23:28 PM »


Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.


Hopefully solid data will emerge from the almost 500 case files which the Police removed from the Catholic Church in Belgium.  These are new complaints gathered over the last two months after the resignation in late April of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe for long term sexual abuse.  One may wonder if this slew of complaints of the last two months is all of them or is there more to come.

Btw,  this thread is concerned with the abuse claims sweeping the Church in Europe.   What information is there of the major European countries, France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, also Poland, Croatia, Malta, etc.?  Are investigations underway?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 04:24:58 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #316 on: June 30, 2010, 04:33:48 PM »


Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.


Hopefully solid data will emerge from the almost 500 case files which the Police removed from the Catholic Church in Belgium.  These are new complaints gathered over the last two months after the resignation in late April of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe for long term sexual abuse.  One may wonder if this slew of complaints of the last two months is all of them or is there more to come.

Btw,  this thread is concerned with the abuse claims sweeping the Church in Europe.   What information is there of the major European countries, France, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, also Poland, Croatia, Malta, etc.?  Are investigations underway?

Fair and Balanced:  These are NEW cases concerning past abuse.  New in the sense that a CHURCH sponsored group had been actually encouraging these people, who had been too frightened to come foreward before, to do so now.  Somebody knew what the group was doing and jumped the gun, so to speak.

I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.

Mary
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« Reply #317 on: June 30, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »


Fair and Balanced:  These are NEW cases concerning past abuse.

Possibly, but you have no idea of knowing the timing of these 475 crimes revealed during May and June.  You are simply asserting without solid foundation that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Many may well be but you cannot say that some of them are not recent crimes.


Hard Facts:

The sex-abuse Commission has been in existence for over 10 years.

From 2000 to 2008 it was headed by Godelieve Halsberghe.

During her 8 year tenure only 30 complaints were received.

In the last two months since the April resignation of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe the Commission has received a flood of complaints - 475.



"Godelieve Halsberghe, said in an interview with a Flemish newspaper, Het Nieuwsblad, that she had gone to the authorities after receiving a call from a man who did not identify himself and warned her in French to “watch out” for herself and to secure the documents she held on about 30 cases she had handled during her tenure at the commission, from 2000 to 2008.

"Ms. Halsberghe, now a retired magistrate, has long been critical of the church’s efforts in Belgium to confront its past. Alarmed by the phone call, she took the documents in her keeping to the authorities and warned them that the church might be hiding others."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29brussels.html

It was this action by Godelieve Halsberghe, the former head of the sex-abuse Commission, which caused the Police raids. 


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« Reply #318 on: June 30, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »


I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.


Search warrants are issued by magistrates who must be convinced by the Police application that there are sufficient grounds to issue them.
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« Reply #319 on: June 30, 2010, 05:23:33 PM »


I think the authorities made a rather huge error in judgment, and I hope they will be sued for what they did.


Search warrants are issued by magistrates who must be convinced by the Police application that there are sufficient grounds to issue them.


Nonsense.  That phone call is not evidence but suspicion and innuendo.  And that is ALL they had.  That kind of raid is like the ATF raids in this country where they go racing into a home, scare the dickens out of everyone, kill a few, and come back out and a week later say "Ooops" because they got the wrong house.  The raid was over-kill...in other words.

And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

M.
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« Reply #320 on: June 30, 2010, 05:33:54 PM »


And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.
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« Reply #321 on: June 30, 2010, 06:55:30 PM »

Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.


Correct, I believe that they are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure. There is a possibility in my mind it could cure it or remove someone's attention from it if their defect is not strong, just like in the alternate people in prison do bad sexual things because of a lack of healthy relationship.

But this is beyond my reasoning. My reasoning is that the requirement of celibacy itself acts as a filter. When you give someone the absolute choice to have a family or to be a priest, a healthy-sexually person who wants a healthy sexual relationship will have a have a hard time, whereas a person who does not have normal sexuality will say "oh well, giving up marriage means little to me".

In other words, whether or not the lack of marriage encourages abuse, the fact that it is a requirement turns it into a choice that works as a filter when people are making their choices to go into the priesthood or not.

Per person, a person with normal sexuality and wants to keep open the option of having a family may be less likely to join a forced-celibate priesthood than one who doesn't have normal sexuality and for whom the choice is meaningless.


Of course, the Catholic church should not just allow married priests for a practical need to lower abuse rates, it should also consider doctrinal reasons like the healthy model of having a Batushka and Matushka for a church family.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 07:01:00 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #322 on: June 30, 2010, 11:17:59 PM »

Well, I suppose you Orthodox better start opening up all of your monasteries and episcopal καθέδρες to married men ASAP, so you don't "filter" out "healthy" people among your monks and bishops.

Perhaps you should open them to women, too, since females are less likely to be abusers.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 11:18:49 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #323 on: July 01, 2010, 12:09:28 AM »

Well, I suppose you Orthodox better start opening up all of your monasteries and episcopal καθέδρες to married men ASAP, so you don't "filter" out "healthy" people among your monks and bishops.

Perhaps you should open them to women, too, since females are less likely to be abusers.
Ah yes, I was going to get to that.

First of all, if monasteries would for any reason have more people with problems then it would not create much abuse because monks do not have contact with kids as much as priests.
Second, as you mentioned, this does not apply to nuns.

Third and most important, a BIG difference between the monkhood and priesthood is that monks have decided on their own to isolate themselves from the world. That is why they don't get married. They have isolated themselves in general. If monks were allowed to get married it would not be a monastery. In other words, people go into the monastery for the reason that they want to live alone away from the world and that reason in turn means that they would not want to have families. Do you see the difference?
Someone who wants to be a monk will not have trouble with the choice of giving up a family because the person who wants to be a monk is one that wants to be alone.

For someone who wants to become a priest and work in the community, this is not the case. They are a social person and their desire to be a priest comes out of a desire to serve others and NOT to be alone. Then the Catholic Church comes along and sets on them a tough requirement to give up any chance of marrying. Many people who want to be in the world as priests with normal sexuality will find this a huge obstacle and it acts as a filter.

That is why it is ok to have monasteries for people who want to live apart from the world, and it is good to have a model of a church among the world with a Batushka and Matushka where they have a family just like their parish is a family.


However, I think Peter the Aleut made a good point about doctrine. It isn't enough for me to say that priests should be allowed to marry to avoid a filter. There should be a doctrinal explanation too.
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« Reply #324 on: July 01, 2010, 12:39:42 AM »

Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.


Correct, I believe that they are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure. There is a possibility in my mind it could cure it or remove someone's attention from it if their defect is not strong, just like in the alternate people in prison do bad sexual things because of a lack of healthy relationship.

But this is beyond my reasoning. My reasoning is that the requirement of celibacy itself acts as a filter. When you give someone the absolute choice to have a family or to be a priest, a healthy-sexually person who wants a healthy sexual relationship will have a have a hard time, whereas a person who does not have normal sexuality will say "oh well, giving up marriage means little to me".

In other words, whether or not the lack of marriage encourages abuse, the fact that it is a requirement turns it into a choice that works as a filter when people are making their choices to go into the priesthood or not.

Per person, a person with normal sexuality and wants to keep open the option of having a family may be less likely to join a forced-celibate priesthood than one who doesn't have normal sexuality and for whom the choice is meaningless.


Of course, the Catholic church should not just allow married priests for a practical need to lower abuse rates, it should also consider doctrinal reasons like the healthy model of having a Batushka and Matushka for a church family.
Okay, I think I see where you're going with this argument.  Of those men of the Latin Rite who have healthy sexual desires and choose not to pursue the monastic life, many will be torn between priesthood and marriage.  Some will choose the priesthood over marriage, and some will choose marriage over the priesthood.  This filters out many men with healthy sex drives who would otherwise be excellent priests (and would find marriage to be no such obstacle to ordination in the Orthodox Church).

Those men with unhealthy sexual desires for children or adolescents, OTOH, will not be torn between marriage and priesthood.  Since they can fulfill their perverted lusts without being married, they'll see no need for marriage.  Such men will then not have a desire for marriage acting as a hindrance to keep them from pursuing ordination.  As such, it stands to (your) reason that one should see in the Roman Church a higher percentage of priests who are child abusers than in the Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure yet that I can agree with this reasoning, but I at least understand it (I think).
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« Reply #325 on: July 01, 2010, 02:40:38 AM »

Yeah that's it.
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« Reply #326 on: July 01, 2010, 02:47:04 AM »


And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.

I am not just spinning, Father.  The head of the group that was trying to identify victims indicated that many of the people, represented by the files that were taken, had been those who were most afraid to come forward.  The indication in his comments is that these are old cases that are just now coming forward to talk about their experiences.  So I am following his lead from some of his comments in the articles that I've been reading over the past couple of days.

When evidence comes out that refutes my understanding of this particular issue then you can criticize my faulty understandings.

Mary
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« Reply #327 on: July 01, 2010, 04:15:57 AM »


And there is to date, no evidence that any of the most recent complaints are brand new cases in real time now.  So I'd wait for that if I were you.

It was not me but you who introduced the matter of the timing of these crimes and you made out that they are "NEW cases concerning past abuse."  Since you have no way of knowing that (it has not been revealed; the Police have had the files only for a week) you are just putting a spin on things.    I see that the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone tried his own spin, claiming that the 9 detained bishops had had no food nor drink for 9 hours.   That false statement backfired on him when the Belgian Minister of Justice denied it. No apology from the Cardinal for the disinformation, the matter just lapsed.

I am not just spinning, Father.  The head of the group that was trying to identify victims indicated that many of the people, represented by the files that were taken, had been those who were most afraid to come forward.  The indication in his comments is that these are old cases that are just now coming forward to talk about their experiences.  So I am following his lead from some of his comments in the articles that I've been reading over the past couple of days.

When evidence comes out that refutes my understanding of this particular issue then you can criticize my faulty understandings.

Mary

Sorry, but you have gone from the nebulous "the indication of his comments" to your statement that your understanding stands without refutation and cannot be criticised.   Is that logical?
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« Reply #328 on: July 01, 2010, 05:31:10 AM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?



You don't need any "solid evidence" for your refutation- it's enough to say that she understand things wrong!

Forgive me everybody if I am going ballistic, it is just funny.  Cheesy       Be good. We all friends here.
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« Reply #329 on: July 01, 2010, 05:48:59 AM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
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« Reply #330 on: July 01, 2010, 07:09:59 AM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

Oh! My God ,It's a Epidemic a Disease Thats Infected the Catholic Church World wide...Why Is Holy Orthodox Or Part Of It ,desperatly seeking to Unite with them...I'm Against Any Unity till they Get there House In order, and Major reforms and allow Married clerics... Grin
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« Reply #331 on: July 01, 2010, 07:30:23 AM »


OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?

A website which mitigates against Mary's repeated statement that these are "old" crimes and simply newly reported.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium

This site shows that the abuse was continuing in the 1990s and the 2000s.  One would like to think it was to a lesser extent but we have no hard facts about that.

In the case of the Belgium entry on the website we note that it has not yet been updated to include any data from the 475 abuse cases which have been reported in the last two months since late April (the time of the resignation of Bishop Roger Vangheluwe.)  It is this data which the Belgian Police removed from the Catholic Church last Thursday, two and a half truckloads of files.  So it will take a while to process such an amount of material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium
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« Reply #332 on: July 01, 2010, 10:47:31 AM »

Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest on the EO side about these issues? An 8-page thread is a bit much, don't you think?
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« Reply #333 on: July 01, 2010, 11:05:02 AM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
You know its dishonest to say that she is defending Catholic crimes against children. She outright condems those crimes and you know it.
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« Reply #334 on: July 01, 2010, 11:05:02 AM »

I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.
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« Reply #335 on: July 01, 2010, 12:04:13 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.

Thank you for you consideration.

Mary
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« Reply #336 on: July 01, 2010, 12:04:13 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders
You know its dishonest to say that she is defending Catholic crimes against children. She outright condems those crimes and you know it.

It's nothing more than an excuse to have a fight where there is no fight.

Mary
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« Reply #337 on: July 01, 2010, 05:10:58 PM »

Just out of curiosity, why is there so much interest on the EO side about these issues? An 8-page thread is a bit much, don't you think?

The thread has been running for three and a half months.  That averages 3 posts a day.   It has sprung back into life over this past week because of the Belgian raids last Thursday.
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« Reply #338 on: July 01, 2010, 05:13:15 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.
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« Reply #339 on: July 01, 2010, 06:05:39 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary
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« Reply #340 on: July 01, 2010, 09:40:17 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary

What evidence do you have to support your claim that all we have are new reports of old crimes?  What evidence do you have that the abuse has ceased?

Evidence on the various sites I have referenced would suggest that is a rather myopic view.
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« Reply #341 on: July 01, 2010, 09:56:27 PM »

I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

I don't find encouraging western priests to be celibate as strongly objectionable in light of Western spiritual customs that started in 500 AD with all due respect, but I am glad that our church doesn't have it.

I know that a good number of Catholic priests are ok.
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« Reply #342 on: July 01, 2010, 10:07:12 PM »

I just don't understan this entire thread. I am not sure what any of it has to do with a celibate priesthood. Rather than throw out 1500 years of spiritual practices in the west, why not just be sure to select healthy men for the priesthood? Seems to make a great deal more sense.

Sure, you could encourage men to follow the spiritual practice of celibacy or monasticism, but you can throw it out as a forced requirement, since you can have a Spiritual Father and Mother for your church family.

The practice itself should not be a forced requirement simply because it is a nice custom, any more than requiring women to wear veils should be. I see more sense in requiring women to wear veils since it says it in the New Testament, while we know that marriages existed among Wetsern church leaders in the early church. So I disagree with it as a forced requirement. I mean it's your church you can do what you want. It just seems to me that Orthodox/ Eastern Catholic model is better for several reasons.

We are Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. We don't need to follow the spiritual practices of your church.
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« Reply #343 on: July 01, 2010, 11:09:15 PM »

OK, his comments indicate something, and until you have solid evidence to refute her understanding of the indication, you cannot criticize that understanding.

She understands things one way and you can't disagree with her interpretation of his suggestion unless you have SOLID PROOF?


Mary's "defence" of Roman Catholic crimes against children seems to be partially based on the claim that they all took place in the distant past. Apparently this mitigates the offence.   It would seem that she is asking us to accept that sexual abusers ceased to exist among the Roman Catholic clergy in the last decade or two.

This is not the case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_by_members_of_Roman_Catholic_orders

This presents my position quite falsely.


If it does, then I apologise but it is certainly the message which I personally pick up from your postings.

Apparently your "vision" in this case is profoundly inaccurate.

Mary

What evidence do you have to support your claim that all we have are new reports of old crimes?  What evidence do you have that the abuse has ceased?

Evidence on the various sites I have referenced would suggest that is a rather myopic view.

Where is your evidence that those dossiers are all new cases?   Of course there's been one or two new cases that have been reported over the passed few years but those cases have been immediately dealt with and the priests removed.  The incidence of new cases is markedly low and no where near the reported averages in the secular world...no where near.  So unless you have data that says otherwise I will stick with what I've seen reported.

I am always open to new data but not continuing innuendo and speculation....

Mary
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« Reply #344 on: July 02, 2010, 10:07:41 AM »

It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 
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« Reply #345 on: July 02, 2010, 10:20:12 AM »


Where is your evidence that those dossiers are all new cases? 
Mary


I'd like to see where I said that.  The fact is I have never said that all these cases are new cases.

But, some cases are indeed new ones - just look at the references I have given in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Belgium  Some of the Belgium crimes have taken place within the last few years, up to 2008.   And I suspect that the as yet unknown data in the 475 case files removed from the Catholics by the Police will certainly contain further allegations of recent sex crimes against children and adolescents.
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« Reply #346 on: July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM »

It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 

Thank you Shultz.  Follows a small portion of the reason that these cases touch my life so personally and why I may take a rather strange looking position sometimes:

Some-sharp-lawyer-body for the Vatican needs to wake the heck up and start combating this mess with data from the secular world.  If the Vatican's diplomatic immunity can be breached then EVERY political and civil body in this country should be open for suit.

I would sue the local police and the local country judiciary for mishandling a case of attempted rape back in 1974.  I was hounded, subjected to a lie detector test, badgered daily with interviews and finally reprimanded openly in a courtroom. 

The judge mocked and lectured me against the very behavior on my part that saved me, the very behavior that was, unbeknown to me, being taught in classes where women learned how to behave in rape cases to save their lives.  I was given this reprimand for my behaviors in front of the man who tried to rape me at knifepoint, who sat there while he and his lawyer snickered...

And the kicker folks is that they came to ME to file charges in the beginning because this man was a serial rapist who had just raped a 70 year old woman who died of a heart attack on account.

The fellow who tried to rape me was released on a plea bargain, and I had to leave the place where I lived and find other accommodations away from my home till he was finally sentenced for mail fraud and returned to prison on a parole violation.

I got no help from the county to do this and was homeless for a year in the transition.  The police woman who had worked to convince me to go public with the incidence came to my house and cried.  I never saw her again.

THAT is how the secular world dealt with sexual abuse in the past century and still to a great extent does so now!!

I live in a town that has been a traditional local dumping ground for sexual predators who have been released from prison.  One of them stalked my mother's house for three years after my father died till I took actions that scared him away.  Actions that could have landed me in a jail cell for trying to protect my own mother because our laws essentially make it impossible to PREVENT crime.

I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.

This case against the Vatican is an indictment against every enlightened nation in the world and SOMEBODY needs to make that case. It is a pathological world which allows that but will stand in unholy judgment of the Church.
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« Reply #347 on: July 02, 2010, 02:56:50 PM »

It could be a bit of both: old incidents (as in abuse happening 20 years ago) being reported recently (in the past few years) and nothing coming of it.

There is probably more subtlety at play here but, in the end, without any other evidence, what the Belgian police found is mere speculation, period.  Until there's more information presented to us, I would think that such speculation should be beneath devout Christians.  We should merely be praying for all involved, especially the victims of clerical abuse. 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Smiley
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« Reply #348 on: July 02, 2010, 08:33:42 PM »

New York Times rips Pope, says he could have stopped abuse scandal in 1990s

Go to
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=6830&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29
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« Reply #349 on: July 02, 2010, 08:40:11 PM »

Seven Days That Shook the Vatican

The past week has been pretty eventful. John Allen gives a listing of some of the more important happenings: the Belgium police raids, the US Supreme Court decision, the European Court of Human Rights, etc.


http://ncronline.org/blogs/seven-days-shook-vatican
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« Reply #350 on: July 02, 2010, 08:52:12 PM »

Without its immunity, can the Vatican survive?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/belief/2010/jul/01/without-immunity-can-vatican-survive

A US supreme court decision could have serious implications for the Holy See, historically protected by its sovereignty

This week the US supreme court issued a decision against the Vatican the importance of which has been compared by one lawyer to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

That may sound like an exaggeration, but the court's decision that the Vatican does not have legal immunity in a claim of sexual abuse by a Catholic priest could have far-reaching ramifications for the church.

The case, John V Doe v Holy See, has been filed by a plaintiff (using a pseudonym) who claims to have been sexually abused on several occasions in the mid-1960s by a Roman Catholic priest called Andrew Ronan . The claim was filed back in 2002, and thanks to the court's decision last week, it can finally proceed against the Vatican – allegedly liable because it acted as the priest's employer.

Jeffrey Lena, the US-based lawyer who is defending the Vatican, has argued that the Holy See should not be regarded as an employer of priests because it does not pay them any salary, or benefits, and does not exercise a day-to-day control on their activity.

But the real issue in the case has been immunity. The Vatican attempted to invoke the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) of 1976, under which foreign states cannot be sued. The supreme court refused to allow this.

The decision last week was, coincidentally, delivered on the same muggy summer's day in which Rome and the Vatican celebrate the feast of Saints Peter and Paul, patrons of Rome.

The religious holiday sees the city shut down and attracts a flood of tourists in St Peter's Basilica, one of the strongest symbols of the terrain power of the Vatican. Many who visit the city learn of the time when, on 20 September 1870, the Pope has lost his temporal power as the Italian army breached the Aurelian Walls at Porta Pia to conquer Rome.

Despite its turbulent history, the political and economic influence of the Vatican has never ended. Avvenire, the Italian bishops' newspaper, predictably describes the supreme court rejection of the immunity claim as "a non-decision". But in reality it is a decision, and a controversial one with the potential to shake the Vatican's foundations and have far-reaching financial and reputational consequences.

In the legal community, the debate on immunity rages on. Most Italian commentators tend to agree that the Vatican is a sovereign entity as it has a marked territory, with Latin as the official language, an independent legal system and its own police body, facts which tend towards giving it the same immunity as states. One of Italy's most famous lawyers, Franzo Grande Stevens, has published an open letter in the newspaper La Stampa saying that the Vatican clearly has an immunity.

But there are others who argue that it is not a member of the United Nations (it has a permanent observer status) and that religious leaders do not usually enjoy an immunity status.

The US supreme court decision paves the way for other suits to be filed against priests accused of paedophilia, which will in turn involve the Vatican. Jeff Anderson, the lawyer representing the claimant, is already understood to have more cases against the Holy See in the pipeline. The combination of potentially thousands of victims in numerous jurisdictions, and the economic incentive for lawyers seek-out cases (particularly in America where so-called "ambulance-chasing" is rife), could result in enough cases to have devastating implications for the church.

The Vatican's response so far has been to deny liability, and last week it said it would prove it can't be held responsible for the priest's actions. But how the law will deal with such strong political, religious and economic powers challenging what is in legal terms an uncertain and evolving area, remains to be seen.
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« Reply #351 on: July 02, 2010, 09:21:08 PM »


I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.
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« Reply #352 on: July 03, 2010, 01:39:17 AM »


I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.

That is precisely the point Father.  We are talking about Catholics being abused by Catholics and part of the healing process for us is the purification of memory as part of the process of forgiveness.   St. Symeon the New Theologian calls us not only to complete forgiveness but also to complete love of our enemies.  Calls us to imagine their faces and look upon the with deepest love...the love of Christ.

That public road that I took taught me that the idea of protecting the victim is foreign to secular law.  It should not be foreign to the Church.  It was and that is the real shame but the secular world hasn't a darn shred of moral high ground to stand upon.

To add a bit to my story I will tell you that the attack that I sustained as an adult that came not only from the sexual predator but from the judicial and social systems as well was NOTHING when compared to the memories of a situation that preceded it when I was a child.  As a child I was tampered with by one who was and is beloved to me. 

So I understand many of these youth and children in the Church who were sexually harmed by their pastors.  A priest is most often beloved by his parish community and the children look to him for many things...love and protection being not the least of those expectations.

I did not stop loving the person who took advantage of my youth.  In fact it took me years to grasp the fact that I had done nothing wrong.

So it is a complex thing that we are dealing with in all of this and I can tell you from my automatic reactions to the shrill screaming of the press that they are doing NOTHING of any use or good for the victims.

All of the shrieking is like nails on a chalkboard to me.  I don't want their God-foresaking advocacy because their advocacy is making me sick internally because I am called not only to forgive and forget but to love unconditionally those who seek to do me harm.

There is NOTHING in the secular world that is prepared to help me heal.  Nothing at all.

So I sit by choking on my silence watching people try to destroy the one avenue that I have for healing.

You may eat your pop-corn and watch. 

I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

Mary
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« Reply #353 on: July 03, 2010, 07:26:36 PM »


I suffered for the past thirty years with chronic panic and anxiety as a result of the trauma of that rape case and NOBODY offered me a thin dime for my troubles or for my treatment.


Dear Mary,  I am horrified to read of the experiences you have endured.  I know how long the road is for a woman to recover from rape or attempted rape and find peace again.  Your own experiences raise to the level of great charity your own charitable approach to the priests who have been engaging in child rape.
I read that the Archdiocese of NY has a comic book out warning children about this problem.
What do you think of this approach? See the book here:
http://www.adnyfiles.org/English.pdf
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« Reply #354 on: July 03, 2010, 07:43:17 PM »



I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

I was never sexually abused at school by any priest or brother but I have friends who were.  I have never taken any delight in their suffering, neither in the early years when they spoke about it privately nor in more recent years when they have had to suffer again when it has become public and involved court cases.

If I delight in anything it is the destruction of the culture of secrecy because once that is thoroughly ripped away and demolished the chances of any repetition of institutionalised sexual abuse in parishes and schools becomes far less likely.  Let the tree be pruned as severely as need be so that it may grow back in a healthy state. The suffering of the victim children demands no less.
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« Reply #355 on: July 03, 2010, 10:24:40 PM »



I have a very different seat in this theatre from the one that you occupy, sometimes seemingly with great delight!!...and in your delight you make me sick...quite literally.

I was never sexually abused at school by any priest or brother but I have friends who were.  I have never taken any delight in their suffering, neither in the early years when they spoke about it privately nor in more recent years when they have had to suffer again when it has become public and involved court cases.

If I delight in anything it is the destruction of the culture of secrecy because once that is thoroughly ripped away and demolished the chances of any repetition of institutionalised sexual abuse in parishes and schools becomes far less likely.  Let the tree be pruned as severely as need be so that it may grow back in a healthy state. The suffering of the victim children demands no less.

Take no delight in the pruning and you'll be much closer to where I stand.  Understand that it is necessary but never delightful, and you will be better able to truly help and understand the victims in the most Christ-like way, in the way of the ascetic fathers, in the way of faith.  That is what is important.  This is not our home.  The salvation of a soul, be it the victim soul or the predator soul,  is more important that the restoration of good feelings here on earth. 

To not love the abuser as a child of God, and I mean love them as God loves them, unconditionally and without hesitation is to send the worst kind of message to the abused ones.

One of the things that I learned the hard way in life is that my past may explain some of my sinful behaviors but they NEVER excused them.  The only real horror in any of this is that there may have been souls lost in the process.

I am sick of the unctuous yapping of the secular press who has no real concern or understanding of what real healing constitutes.

Also know that there are many accusations that are false.  That is another horror in all of this.

Mary

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« Reply #356 on: July 04, 2010, 04:27:53 PM »

 Grin  ....Dioceses oust abusers they had pledged to monitor

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100704/ap_on_re/us_rel_priests_and_penance;_ylt=ApoL49x1VqIgFHE8ajAFOU.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTN1dDZidXZiBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNzA0L3VzX3JlbF9wcmllc3RzX2FuZF9wZW5hbmNlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDOQRwb3MDNgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2Rpb2Nlc2Vzb3VzdA--


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EmailPrint..By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer Rachel Zoll, Ap Religion Writer – 2 hrs 41 mins ago
NEW YORK – At the peak of the Roman Catholic clergy sex abuse crisis, the discipline plan American bishops adopted prompted dioceses to remove nearly all accused clergy from the priesthood.

Some of the men, however, were considered too old or sick to be kicked out. Instead, bishops barred those clerics from functioning as priests and promised to keep watch over them in supervisory programs that would keep the men far from children.

But interviews with canon lawyers, church child protection officials and experts who advise them found that, eight years after the plan was approved, few of those diocesan programs exist. Church leaders are more likely to oust a cleric from the priesthood than monitor him.

Church leaders viewed the tracking programs as critical to protecting children while still showing mercy for accused clergy who did not have the means to survive on their own.

Most people who said they were abused as children did not come forward until decades after the priests' alleged offenses. The men had never been prosecuted in a civil court, let alone a church tribunal. Vatican officials whose approval was needed to enact the 2002 American plan were especially concerned about clergy due process rights and pressed bishops on the issue.

When the American policy was finalized, an exception had been carved out for the infirm men. They would be ordered to live a life of "prayer and penance" under diocesan watch.

Dioceses quickly realized, though, that they had few resources for the complex task of monitoring abusive priests, and that by caring for the clergy, they might be opening themselves to additional liability. American dioceses have already paid more than $2.7 billion in settlements and other abuse-related costs since 1950, according to surveys by the bishops.

Tossing accused clerics out of the priesthood altogether became the more common approach.

"In many instances, it's a decision based on whether there is the probability of being able to provide the monitoring that's necessary," said Sister Sharon Euart, a canon lawyer who advises bishops and religious orders. If they can't, they may be more likely to begin the process of removing them from the priesthood, she said.

No one knows exactly how many accused clergy have been removed from the priesthood in the last several years, how many are living under church supervision or the specifics of how dioceses are tracking the men under their watch. Annual child safety audits for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops do not include a check of priest-monitoring programs.

A separate 2007 survey for the bishops found only a small number of dioceses operated residences where abusive clergy were supervised, according to Mary Jane Doerr of the bishops' Secretariat for Child and Youth Protection.

Monica Applewhite, a consultant who conducts abuse-prevention training and helps develop policies and monitoring programs for dioceses and religious orders, estimates just a few hundred accused clergy are now under supervision around the country.

"Some dioceses really have laicized everybody," she said.

David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, said it should be no surprise that dioceses are struggling with the issue. The church is tackling a problem that broader society has yet to solve: how to keep sex offenders in check.

The accused priests are an especially difficult case. The men are under no obligation — legal or otherwise — to accept the bishops' terms. Some accused clergy leave the priesthood rather than live under the restrictions.

"There's no other organization that has this large of a community of people against whom there have been accusations where there has never been any adjudication," said Finkelhor, who researches child sex abuse and has advised the Archdiocese of Boston.

The situation in dioceses contrasts starkly to the approach in men's religious orders such as the Jesuits, Dominicans and Friars, who generally live in contained communities and mostly operate independently of bishops.

When the U.S. religious orders adapted the bishops' 2002 discipline plan, the groups added detailed guidelines on supervision of priests barred from public church work.

The religious orders had a built-in advantage. Their clergy already lived together and had taken vows of obedience to their superiors when they joined the orders.

Diocesan priests are more independent. They generally live alone in parish rectories spread across a state, some with parochial grade schools attached or nearby.

Dioceses also have found they do not have the housing, resources or experience to properly supervise accused abusers. Church-run treatment facilities take in some of the clergy, with dioceses covering the costs.

Bishop Blase Cupich of the Diocese of Rapid City, S.D., said he sent a local accused priest to a treatment center in another region where the clergyman could be closely monitored and receive counseling. The rural Rapid City diocese covers an area the size of Pennsylvania.

"We did not have the capacity to monitor" the priest, who has since died, said Cupich, head of the bishops' national child-protection committee. "I know some smaller dioceses have used facilities like that."

Applewhite, a social worker, said most clergy who have been barred from church work but have accepted oversight from a dioceses or religious order would be considered low-risk by criminal justice standards, since most are elderly with offenses dating back decades.

The Archdiocese of Chicago is one of the few dioceses with a fully developed monitoring program. It was created in 2008 after a child safety review that was prompted by a mishandled abuse claim against a parish priest, the Rev. Daniel McCormack. He later pleaded guilty.

Eleven clergy are in the program, generally ranging in age from their 60s to 80s, but are not all housed together, according to Jan Slattery, the archdiocese child protection director.

Each has an individual safety plan based on his history, including mandatory participation in 12-step programs, managed by a counselor with a background in investigations. The archdiocese notifies local law enforcement about the men's presence in their area, while the clerics names are posted on the archdiocese website.

The archdiocese did lose one clergyman from the program after he consistently violated protocols, she said. He opted to leave the priesthood.

"They all understand what the consequences are," Slattery said.

Advocates for victims have questioned whether dioceses should even be in the business of supervising the men, considering bishops' poor track record on reining in predators. The U.S. bishops' toughened discipline plan and the millions of dollars they've spent on abuse prevention in dioceses, has restored some public trust. Yet, the molestation crisis now erupting in European churches continues to undermine confidence in how Catholic leaders deal with abuse.

In the United States, however, the church appears to be the only option, since no other institution would take responsibility for child molesters who have never been convicted.

"Once you throw them out," said Monsignor Stephen Rossetti, former director of the Saint Luke Institute, a Catholic mental health center in Maryland, "you have no leverage."
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« Reply #357 on: July 04, 2010, 05:28:15 PM »

Australian priest jailed for 'sadistic' child abuse   


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100702/wl_asia_afp/australiacrimesexchildreligionpriest

Fri Jul 2, 7:38 am ET
SYDNEY (AFP) – An Australian Catholic priest was sentenced Friday to almost 20 years in jail for child sex attacks which the judge said were sadistic and went unpunished for many years.

John Sidney Denham, 67, was sentenced to 19 years and 10 months after pleading guilty to a range of charges, including multiple counts of indecent assault against boys aged five to 16.

Judge Helen Syme told a Sydney court that many of Denham's 25 victims were left terrified by the attacks they endured at schools in Sydney and elsewhere in New South Wales between 1968 and 1986.

"The indecent assaults involved multiple children, often significant planning, were frequently sadistic and overall persistent, objectively serious, criminal courses of conduct," Syme said, according to Australian news agency AAP.

"The offender's actions contributed to a culture of fear and depravity, especially at the school, which allowed these disturbing offences to occur and then remain unpunished for years."

The public gallery applauded the sentence, of which Denham must serve a minimum of 13 years and 10 months.

Denham had said in court on Thursday that he was still trying to work out why he had abused the boys.

"All I can say is, I am so sorry," he said. "I see myself as a mere scumbag paedophile who took advantage of a situation and used my power to abuse young people."

But Syme said she was not convinced that the priest, who has been in custody since 2008, was genuinely remorseful.

Outside court, the mother of one of the victims said Denham's actions had "ruined families" and should have been acted on by Catholic Church sooner.

"It's disgusting, the hierarchy in the Catholic Church. I can't believe it," she told reporters. "I can't believe I sent my children to a school like that."

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elijahmaria
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« Reply #358 on: July 04, 2010, 06:55:35 PM »

Presuming that at some point these systematic attacks on young people in the Catholic Church will diminish down to a trickle of cases that are caught and dealt with immediately, I'd like to hear from some of the participants in this forum to see if they think that the secular world is better able to deal with these men.  It's not as though they are going to go away.  They will simply go away from the Catholic Church.

Also what do you suppose can be done to aid those who have been falsely accused and who have left the priesthood broken and bowed for no reason?   The number of false accusations is much greater than some might guess, but it is NEVER mentioned in the press.

Mary


Australian priest jailed for 'sadistic' child abuse   


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100702/wl_asia_afp/australiacrimesexchildreligionpriest

Fri Jul 2, 7:38 am ET
SYDNEY (AFP) – An Australian Catholic priest was sentenced Friday to almost 20 years in jail for child sex attacks which the judge said were sadistic and went unpunished for many years.

John Sidney Denham, 67, was sentenced to 19 years and 10 months after pleading guilty to a range of charges, including multiple counts of indecent assault against boys aged five to 16.

Judge Helen Syme told a Sydney court that many of Denham's 25 victims were left terrified by the attacks they endured at schools in Sydney and elsewhere in New South Wales between 1968 and 1986.

"The indecent assaults involved multiple children, often significant planning, were frequently sadistic and overall persistent, objectively serious, criminal courses of conduct," Syme said, according to Australian news agency AAP.

"The offender's actions contributed to a culture of fear and depravity, especially at the school, which allowed these disturbing offences to occur and then remain unpunished for years."

The public gallery applauded the sentence, of which Denham must serve a minimum of 13 years and 10 months.

Denham had said in court on Thursday that he was still trying to work out why he had abused the boys.

"All I can say is, I am so sorry," he said. "I see myself as a mere scumbag paedophile who took advantage of a situation and used my power to abuse young people."

But Syme said she was not convinced that the priest, who has been in custody since 2008, was genuinely remorseful.

Outside court, the mother of one of the victims said Denham's actions had "ruined families" and should have been acted on by Catholic Church sooner.

"It's disgusting, the hierarchy in the Catholic Church. I can't believe it," she told reporters. "I can't believe I sent my children to a school like that."


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« Reply #359 on: July 04, 2010, 07:06:38 PM »

Yes, I think the secular world is better able to deal with these offenders. The secular world can sentence them to prison where they won't be able to victimize any more small children. The Church can't do that, and olny seeks to cover up thier crimes.
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