OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 07:43:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 29548 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #270 on: June 28, 2010, 08:27:37 PM »

 Grin...
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #271 on: June 28, 2010, 08:33:30 PM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary
Logged

Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,644



WWW
« Reply #272 on: June 28, 2010, 08:38:07 PM »

Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Six at present: Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Sotomeyer.  I don't know how strong their practices are, just that at one time or another, they were attached to the Catholic Church.
Scalia is a practicing Catholic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalia#Faith
But what does their personal religious affiliation have to do with anything? As judges thier duty is to put aside personal feelings and adjudicate based on the law and the Constitution.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 08:48:38 PM by Tallitot » Logged

Proverbs 22:7
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #273 on: June 28, 2010, 09:03:38 PM »

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

What a silly question. You can't answer it without losing.

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh !!!!!!!

You can't answer:
"NO, I DO NOT CONSIDER PREVENTING ABUSE OF CHILDREN A DANGER TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH"   without losing?

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?? !!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 09:04:55 PM by rakovsky » Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #274 on: June 28, 2010, 09:13:28 PM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely thats all......... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #275 on: June 28, 2010, 10:26:34 PM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely thats all......... Grin

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #276 on: June 29, 2010, 12:02:29 AM »

The National Catholic Reporter has some interesting things to say about the raids in Belgium.

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/belgium-perfect-storm-sex-abuse-crisis
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #277 on: June 29, 2010, 12:19:15 AM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... Grin

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... Grin
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #278 on: June 29, 2010, 12:43:49 AM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... Grin

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... Grin
My understanding is that we tried to force clerical celibacy upon you at Nicæa. Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women. I personally think that it would be great to relax the celibacy discipline, but clerical continence has been practiced in the West since before Nicæa I and celibacy was always encouraged.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #279 on: June 29, 2010, 12:58:24 AM »

Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women.

Wet,

Please see my explanation at post 267. First, adult women are better able to protect themselves. But second, the celibacy rule acts as a filter, such that people with healthy sexuality with strong attraction to adult women would have a hard time choosing celibate priesthood when they can also serve God as lay people. The issue is not the marriage stops abuse or that celibacy itself forces it, but that the celibacy requirement acts as a kind of filter against people with strong healthy attractions and desires to have families. Orthodox model is to have a batushka and matushka for their church family in parallel with a real family. Supposedly this model was considered healthier.

From Catholic apologetics, the coloquial explanation I got was that being a priest is hard work and they want people who will dedicate them to the church as a bride instead of to a physical bride. Maybe we Orthodox are lazy sompared to busy Western work ethics, but Orthodox way seems good to me.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 12:59:59 AM by rakovsky » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #280 on: June 29, 2010, 01:16:47 AM »

Grin...

Do you confess this mockery that you do against your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you think that you are given extra grace for your behavior?

Mary

All it means is, I'm following this tread closely that's all......... Grin

I'll accept that and for your sake hope that it is all that you mean.

Mary
Thank You !For My spiritual Wellfare.....

All The Talk Of Unity, Between East  and West , Vatican  can't Have Any Hidden Skeletons In it's Closet,everything must ,should be brought out into the light of day...Hopfully By the Grace Of God Before Unity is achived ,The western Church [Rome]Allows It's clergy A choice celebacy or marrage... Grin

You are welcome! For your spiritual welfare...I actually and sincerely do think about such things.  I cannot read your heart of course, so I am happy that you took me seriously and replied in kind trusting that my concern is real.

I don't know that a choice between a married or a single priestly will happen in the Latin rite, Stash.  I don't believe that there will be a choice, any more than Orthodoxy would ever give up her tradition of married priests.   I don't know if I am right in my estimations with any absolute certitude, but I do know with much greater certitude that there will be much stricter guidelines upheld in seminaries for generations to come.

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #281 on: June 29, 2010, 02:04:13 AM »

Why the raids on the Catholic bishops and offices took place

Warning About Church’s Abuse Documents Led Belgian Police to Raid Its Offices
By DOREEN CARVAJAL
Published: June 28, 2010

MECHELEN, Belgium — Four days after a series of police raids of Catholic institutions in Belgium that drew sharp criticism from the pope, the reason for the unusually aggressive operation has emerged: a formal accusation that the church was hiding information on sexual abuse lodged by the former president of an internal church commission handling such cases.

The declaration to the police set off four raids in which the authorities seized hundreds of case files from the commission’s current leader, detained a group of bishops for more than nine hours and disturbed the tomb of a cardinal where construction work had recently been done. Investigators drilled into the tomb and lowered a camera, but found only the remains.

Investigators are now analyzing more than two truckloads of seized documents, many related to 475 complaints lodged with the sex-abuse commission after the resignation in April of a popular bishop who admitted that, early in his career, he had molested a boy.


Go to
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/europe/29brussels.html?hpw


Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #282 on: June 29, 2010, 02:15:34 AM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #283 on: June 29, 2010, 03:29:32 AM »

Supreme Court Allows Vatican Sex Abuse Case to Go Forward

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/majority-catholic-supreme_n_627846.html

WASHINGTON (AP)-- The Supreme Court won't stop a lawsuit that accuses the Vatican of conspiring with U.S. church officials to transfer a priest from city to city despite repeated accusations that the clergyman sexually abused young people.


The high court Monday refused to hear an appeal from the Vatican, a decision that allows the lawsuit to move forward. No one has ever successfully sued the Vatican over sex abuse by clergy.

The imagination boggles at the thought of the Pope being arraigned or required tro give a deposition by a US court.  All that we inconsequential small fry can do in this unfolding of unimaginable events is pull up and chair and watch ...


Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #284 on: June 29, 2010, 04:02:24 AM »

Belgian church mulls legal action after paedophilia raids

(AFP)BRUSSELS — A Catholic archdiocese could sue the Belgian state over police raids on church property carried out as part of a paedophilia investigation, a lawyer said Saturday, amid Vatican indignation.

Fernand Keuleneer, lawyer for the Mechelen-Brussels archdiocese, said he had his "doubts" over whether the authorities' actions on Thursday were legal.

His comments came as the Vatican returned to the attack over the police raids on Thursday against a background of fresh claims of child abuse by members of the clergy.


Go to
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g3KsUmyjv-YfoQWmb1Aqky_1wAAg
Logged
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,644



WWW
« Reply #285 on: June 29, 2010, 07:30:57 AM »



The imagination boggles at the thought of the Pope being arraigned or required tro give a deposition by a US court.  All that we inconsequential small fry can do in this unfolding of unimaginable events is pull up and chair and watch

Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #286 on: June 29, 2010, 08:11:44 AM »

Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

An article which raises questions about the "fictive statehood" of the Vatican:

Unholy immunity: pope's claim to be head of state may help with legal defense in abuse lawsuits, but it raises troubling church-state questions.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Unholy+immunity%3A+pope's+claim+to+be+head+of+state+may+help+with+legal...-a0227298622

"The Catholic Church isn't truly a sovereign nation" and that "to allow it to play one on the international stage perverts the meaning of statehood."

"A long history of diplomatic maneuvering has so far provided the church with the trappings of a state, enabling it to shield the pope and its leaders from the pedophilia scandal."

Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #287 on: June 29, 2010, 10:26:36 AM »

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

What a silly question. You can't answer it without losing.

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh !!!!!!!

You can't answer:
"NO, I DO NOT CONSIDER PREVENTING ABUSE OF CHILDREN A DANGER TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH"   without losing?

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh?? !!!!!!!!
Another silly question. What do you think my answer would be? Why are even bothering to ask such a silly question?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #288 on: June 29, 2010, 10:31:44 AM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope. You are just being disrespectful. No one is asking you to like Pope Benedict. No one is asking you to agree with him. But for the sake of the Catholics in this room, don't call him "Bennie". A little Chrisitian Charity on your part would be appreciated.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #289 on: June 29, 2010, 10:32:08 AM »

Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

An article which raises questions about the "fictive statehood" of the Vatican:

Unholy immunity: pope's claim to be head of state may help with legal defense in abuse lawsuits, but it raises troubling church-state questions.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Unholy+immunity%3A+pope's+claim+to+be+head+of+state+may+help+with+legal...-a0227298622

"The Catholic Church isn't truly a sovereign nation" and that "to allow it to play one on the international stage perverts the meaning of statehood."

"A long history of diplomatic maneuvering has so far provided the church with the trappings of a state, enabling it to shield the pope and its leaders from the pedophilia scandal."



It's correct that the Catholic Church is not a sovereign nation, but the Vatican is a sovereign nation. And, it just so happens that th head of the Vatican nation-state is Pope Benedict XVI.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #290 on: June 29, 2010, 10:46:57 AM »

You know what... Let the U.S. government try and depose the Pope. Let's see what happens. I bet it won't end well for the U.S. government and it will end in a particularly ugly fashion for which ever political party is in power at the time.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #291 on: June 29, 2010, 11:04:58 AM »

Belgium trumps Vatican on chuch abuse probes

By ROBERT WIELAARD (AP) – 19 hours ago

BRUSSELS — Belgium insisted Monday in a dispute with the Vatican over credibility that Belgian law enforcement authorities — not the potentially biased Catholic Church — will investigate sexual abuse cases involving clergy.

Go to
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gI5tWYlvPP5P0wkYeyn3thMVdP6wD9GKFTS00
Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #292 on: June 29, 2010, 11:56:27 AM »

The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

none at all you are correct!
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,890



« Reply #293 on: June 29, 2010, 12:04:30 PM »

Respectfully, the cause of the sex abuse scandals has nothing to do with clerical celibacy. If it did, the ones being abused would be adult women.

Wet,

Please see my explanation at post 267. First, adult women are better able to protect themselves. But second, the celibacy rule acts as a filter, such that people with healthy sexuality with strong attraction to adult women would have a hard time choosing celibate priesthood when they can also serve God as lay people. The issue is not the marriage stops abuse or that celibacy itself forces it, but that the celibacy requirement acts as a kind of filter against people with strong healthy attractions and desires to have families. Orthodox model is to have a batushka and matushka for their church family in parallel with a real family. Supposedly this model was considered healthier.

From Catholic apologetics, the coloquial explanation I got was that being a priest is hard work and they want people who will dedicate them to the church as a bride instead of to a physical bride. Maybe we Orthodox are lazy sompared to busy Western work ethics, but Orthodox way seems good to me.

Interestingly though, we Orthodox are more than happy to adopt the Roman Catholic utilitarian argument when it comes to bishops.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #294 on: June 29, 2010, 12:10:23 PM »

The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 12:12:54 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #295 on: June 29, 2010, 12:20:12 PM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #296 on: June 29, 2010, 01:22:25 PM »

The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

none at all you are correct!
I often am. Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #297 on: June 29, 2010, 01:22:26 PM »

The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.



Thank you for kind words concerning our Pope Fr. Ambrose.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #298 on: June 29, 2010, 01:22:26 PM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?

Honestly, I respected him with all the Hitler youth stuff because I understood his situation as a child. I wrote a paper on Pope Pius during WW2 fully defending him. I am fully capable of offering a Pope respect at times when even a lot of people can't, even though I am not required to do so. Religiously, I find it nearly impossible to respect him since he dropped the title Patriarch of the West.

 That said, even if he converted to Orthodox, I would struggle to respect an individual that wouldn't at the very least show respect to the Christian faith by stepping down for such accusations. Maybe Cardinal Ratzinger didn't have anything to do with a cover up in the 80s (but maybe he did) but whether you like it or not, the fact that he wanted to go after that Mexican priest in 1999 and was told to halt by the late Pope John Paul and conceded to that is a double blow to the Papacy and the Christian spirit. In 2004 Pope John Paul honored that same priest, where was Ratzinger? at the very least he should have protested and stepped down. Instead, that shows he is either not too bright or that his perception of the Christian faith is skewed, to say the least. Only after did he go all out on the priest and it was only this year that Rome issued a guilty statement about him. I'm sorry to say such things about your head of church but I'm confident I have the facts straight and the truth hurts. If you feel I have something wrong feel free to correct me, but too many sex scandals wrapped around the current and previous Pope for my liking.
Source?
Elaborate?
BTW, its not the job of the head of the CDF to pursue sexual abuse casess.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #299 on: June 29, 2010, 03:21:57 PM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,291


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #300 on: June 29, 2010, 03:36:05 PM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #301 on: June 29, 2010, 04:53:51 PM »

 Grin...

Austrian Catholics ramp up quest for church reform- Link
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28459.0.html

Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #302 on: June 29, 2010, 05:09:48 PM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 05:10:28 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #303 on: June 29, 2010, 06:24:13 PM »


Joseph Ratzinger won't be arraigned or deposed by a US court. He's immune as a head of state.

While it does seem unlikely that he will be arraigned in the US, but then so did the actions of Belgium last Thursday seem unthinkable until they actually took place.

There are exceptions to the jurisdictional immunity of a foreign state.   The legal argument in the US will centre on whether the American bishops are employees of the Pope.  Since he is the person who hires them and fires them a case can be made that they are.


§ 1605. General exceptions to the jurisdictional immunity of a foreign state
(a) A foreign state shall not be immune from the jurisdiction of courts of the United States or of the States in any case—

(5) in which money damages are sought against a foreign state for personal injury or death, or damage to or loss of property, occurring in the United States and caused by the tortious act or omission of that foreign state or of any official or employee of that foreign state while acting within the scope of his office or employment...


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/usc_sec_28_00001605----000-.html
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #304 on: June 29, 2010, 08:52:15 PM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #305 on: June 30, 2010, 12:29:40 AM »

Quote
Pope criticises 'deplorable' Belgian Church raid

By Ljubomir Milasin (AFP)

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday accused Belgian police of "deplorable methods" in raiding a bishops' meeting as part of a paedophilia probe, as Brussels said the Vatican was over-reacting......

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWzlH8kMkrKsPBAVI2KhNhR9cRlA

What is in fact "deplorable" is the ineffective way that the Roman Catholic Church has handled its child rape crisis.   The civil powers in various countries have generously allowed the Catholic authorities to handle much of the process but now that this is seen as ineffective, it is high time for the Police and the judiciary to exercise the powers entrusted to them by law and cut through the smokescreens and the stonewalling and go after the child rapists.

About 75% of the cases involve children under the age of 15. This is a Wikipedia figure so it may not be fully accurate.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

So, let the Church go about its own business in its dioceses and parishes and let the State go about its business of pursuing criminals.

If the State did in fact carry its full legal responsibilities to pursue these criminals, then Pope Benedict would not find himself in the invidious position he does right now.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 12:46:19 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #306 on: June 30, 2010, 01:10:07 AM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary

Are you saying that the picture that emerges about the Pope from the available material isn't clear?




Such is life.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #307 on: June 30, 2010, 02:57:20 AM »

The problem is that there are no sex scandals wrapped around this Pope

I remember when he was elected and a few groups on the internet were offering large sums of money for any dirt on this Pope.   As far as I know, none was found.  Squeaky clean.

As Popes go, he is a good one and it is unfortunate that his pontificate has become mired in the sex scandals.



Thank you for kind words concerning our Pope Fr. Ambrose.

It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #308 on: June 30, 2010, 03:05:47 AM »

It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #309 on: June 30, 2010, 03:26:58 AM »

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.

I really don't think that celibate priests are the problem.  (I have a problem myself with the Latin insistence that a vocation to the priesthood *must* go hand in hand with a vocation to celibacy but that's another question.)

If we look at the American statistics, it is only 4% of the celibate Catholic priesthood which is in trouble.  That leaves 96% of the celibate priesthood which is not acting wickedly. 

Statistics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #310 on: June 30, 2010, 03:36:35 AM »

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.

I really don't think that celibate priests are the problem.  (I have a problem myself with the Latin insistence that a vocation to the priesthood *must* go hand in hand with a vocation to celibacy but that's another question.)

If we look at the American statistics, it is only 4% of the celibate Catholic priesthood which is in trouble.  That leaves 96% of the celibate priesthood which is not acting wickedly. 

Statistics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Sure, but then you can say how much more goes on then the 4%? Then compare the number with other churches and I imagine it's less. This could just be my perception from eg. THE MAGDELENE SISTERS. My belief is that Orthodox model with a Batushka and Matushka caring for the church family and raising kids of their own and having a healthy relationship together is the best standard relationship model for the church, which shows no disrespect to monk-priests who choose to be celibate and enter the church.

Of course, you and POKROV raise a point that it is not the only factor in whether abuse happens- there must be important safeguards. I'm not sure what they can be, except warning people about the danger and the need to report it.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #311 on: June 30, 2010, 04:07:54 AM »

It's really sad that his prodigious talents are being deflected into the sex scandals.    He has so much to contribute to the reforming of the Catholic liturgy and to the ecumenical dialogue with our own Churches.   But he is old and his energies will not last forever and in the meantime his energy is being consumed by the need to address the scandals.   

Agreed. Nonetheless, it is possible that the sex scandals bother God more than problems in the liturgy, and addressing them properly by allowing married priests would be a worthy accomplishment.
But, in this context, to say "properly" requires that you establish the connection between an unmarried priesthood and sexual abuse of children.  I don't think you've done that yet.

I can think of many reasons why the Roman church should allow for a married priesthood as the Orthodox Church does, but the recent child sex abuse scandals don't count as one of those reasons.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,580



WWW
« Reply #312 on: June 30, 2010, 04:33:12 AM »

Peter and IrishHermit,

I would prefer to think that sex abuse in the Catholic church was extremely low and never tolerated, and that it was no higher than in any other mainstream church.

Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from? It seems to me that the filter system of forcing people with healthy sexuality to make a choice of raising a family or joining the clergy- while others do not have this choice- is a significant explanation. I understand I have not statistically proved that it is the explanation, it just seems like a good one to me. Not sure how I can explain it better, it is just an argument from logic.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.


Further, I would agree with you, if you say so, that the decision to allow married clergy should not just be based on "the most obvious means necessary" to prevent abuse. Rather there should be use of the doctrinal justifications you mentioned for allowing clergy to marry. Perhaps stronger safeguards could be used that would prevent abuse while maintaining the celibacy requirement. Nevertheless, doctrinal justifications combined with practical needs seem to encourage allowing married clergy.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 04:41:12 AM by rakovsky » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,726


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #313 on: June 30, 2010, 05:05:10 AM »

Maybe I am persuaded by media and popular perceptions, but where would a popular perception about abuse in particular come from?
The masses are often flat wrong and can often be deceived, so I would advise you to not trust popular perception.

I reject that the Catholic Church wants kids to be abused, so it seems to me an unintentional result of this filter system.

To recap, I would prefer for the scandal to be extremely low and no higher than in other mainstream churches. If it is real, then the most likely cause to me seems the filter system, rather than any desire by the church to hurt kids.
Only if you fall prey to the logical fallacy of seeing only two possible explanations for what you think you see.  If you go back through my comments on this matter, I think you'll see that I've already posited at least one other possible explanation, that pedophilia and ephebophilia (unnatural sexual attraction to teenagers) are psychological disorders that marriage cannot cure.  Though you acknowledged that this may be so, it seems that you're still not giving a place for it in your reasoning.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 05:28:10 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #314 on: June 30, 2010, 11:06:27 AM »

I did read some suggestions about his involvement in abuse of children (perhaps not sexual) from his time as a manager of a school in Germany.

Suggestions. wow. Solid stuff.

It was something on the level of the person running the school was abusing kids and he was ok with it.

There is also criticism about how he knew of a cardinal in Mexico abusing kids and didn't complain when the then-pope accepted the abuse when [Cardinal?] Ratzinger took issue with it. However, Ratzinger recently I think took action against the cardinal. People complain that he should have gone public, opposed the then-pope openly. Personally I think this shows Cardinal Ratzinger in a partially good light, since his acceptance of the abuse came from the Catholic Church's system of blind fealty to the Pope, rather than from personal approval of abuse.

I know silk worms who can't spin that well!!!

Mary

Are you saying that the picture that emerges about the Pope from the available material isn't clear?




Such is life.

Correct!  I am saying the "data" is lacking and spin is paramount.

EM
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.193 seconds with 72 queries.