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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 29375 times) Average Rating: 0
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stanley123
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« Reply #225 on: June 13, 2010, 11:05:47 PM »


The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.
That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.
But on the other hand, what is the situation with married Orthodox priests?  On average, would they have many children? I know that some do, but others do not.
In any case, as long as Muslim families are large and Christian families are small, we can expect the situation as described in the paragraph above to continue and even worsen. 
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« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2010, 03:35:45 AM »


The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.

I agree with both of you. The Muslims are outbreeding us! Only orthodox Catholic men become priests these days. These potential wonderful fathers who would raise many orthodox Catholic children are eliminated from the breeding pool. Even though priestly celibacy has its benefits, has a strong and apostolic tradition in the West, to save us from the Muslims it would make sense to me to relax the requirement, either temporarily or permanently.

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).

Unfortunately, the more orthodox a Catholic Christian is these days, the more likely they are to support continuing priestly celibacy. I'm about as orthodox as they come (albeit unpious and sinful), and I'm one of the view who supports opening up the priesthood to married men. Most of the others who would agree with me also support homosexual marriage and women's ordination - positions I find reprehensible.
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« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2010, 03:59:35 AM »


One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).


I didn't think Latin Rite (your church?) parishes allowed married clergy?
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« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2010, 04:39:29 AM »


One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).


I didn't think Latin Rite (your church?) parishes allowed married clergy?
Married men may be ordained in the Latin Rite if they are ministers of another Christian denomination who convert. The priest whose family attends my parish was formerly an Episcopalian pastor. I know for sure that married former Anglican and Lutheran priests may be ordained, but I believe that former Presbyterian and Methodist elders can be also
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2010, 05:20:33 AM »

This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.
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« Reply #230 on: June 14, 2010, 10:02:25 AM »

in every case Vatican is gaving a permission so prabably ex catholic who became a priest in other denomination won't take such permission. It's not like evey ex-pastor, presbyter or elder can become a priest  if only he converted to CC. It's not automatically
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« Reply #231 on: June 14, 2010, 02:30:41 PM »

This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.

What christianos said. Now, if the said Catholic left the church when he was relatively young, got married and became a priest in the Episcopal church, then returned to the church relatively older - I suspect that something like that might result in permission for him to be ordained, but if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #232 on: June 14, 2010, 02:55:13 PM »


The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.

I agree with both of you. The Muslims are outbreeding us! Only orthodox Catholic men become priests these days. These potential wonderful fathers who would raise many orthodox Catholic children are eliminated from the breeding pool. Even though priestly celibacy has its benefits, has a strong and apostolic tradition in the West, to save us from the Muslims it would make sense to me to relax the requirement, either temporarily or permanently.

One of the priests at my parish has six children - he has been so open to life that he has had sadly leave my parish and enter the military as a chaplain. He was in Iraq - I don't know where he has been assigned now. His wife and children still attend my parish (he is an Episcopalian convert).

Unfortunately, the more orthodox a Catholic Christian is these days, the more likely they are to support continuing priestly celibacy. I'm about as orthodox as they come (albeit unpious and sinful), and I'm one of the view who supports opening up the priesthood to married men. Most of the others who would agree with me also support homosexual marriage and women's ordination - positions I find reprehensible.
I know this priest as well and I agree that he is an amazing man, and a devout minister of the Lord.
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« Reply #233 on: June 14, 2010, 02:55:14 PM »

This is news to me! What if they were Catholic, became Episcopalean, married, and then made "the journey home?" This hypo reminds me of the method Copts use to divorce in Egypt- convert to Islam, divorce, and return back.

What christianos said. Now, if the said Catholic left the church when he was relatively young, got married and became a priest in the Episcopal church, then returned to the church relatively older - I suspect that something like that might result in permission for him to be ordained, but if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.

And it is also a case by case issue.
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« Reply #234 on: June 14, 2010, 03:46:17 PM »

Quote
if it was clear that the candidate was using that to sidestep the celibacy rule, he would certainly be disallowed.

Then why does the Coptic church not excommunicate those who convert to Islam (technically speaking apostasize) to sidestep its marriage rules? (this question may apply more to Orientals)
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« Reply #235 on: June 15, 2010, 03:42:05 AM »

becouse in Egypt there is no civil marriage. It's like in Lebanon, if you want to marry with someone from other denomination you have to go to Cyprus and then back to Lebanon, or like in Malta becouse there divorces are forbidden. Simply those Malteses who want to  break their relationship go to England and when they back the divorce is recognized by maltese authorities.
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« Reply #236 on: June 15, 2010, 04:16:54 AM »

That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
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« Reply #237 on: June 15, 2010, 04:50:23 AM »

That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
I understand His Holiness's reasoning, and I empathize with much of it. Luckily, however, as this is a matter of Church discipline and not of faith or morals, I am able to respectfully disagree. Smiley

I do especially understand his point that it makes it all the more poignant to the world that the Catholic Church rejects the modern ideas about sexuality, most of which are much, much more dangerous to the salvation of men than the mandated celibacy of clerics in Western Christianity.
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"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
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« Reply #238 on: June 15, 2010, 04:41:48 PM »

That is an interesting thought, Father Ambrose.
It's not a bad idea really.
 I would say that it is an excellent idea for Catholic priests to show the way and set the example for the parish of having a large family of say 10 or 11 children, as some Muslim families do.

The Pope does not agree with us!

The Pope "Rethinks" Clerical Celibacy. In Order to Reinforce It

It is the sign, he says, that God exists and that one allows himself to be seized by passion for him. This makes it a great scandal, and the desire is to eliminate it. The complete transcript of Benedict XVI's latest statement on this issue. And of a surprising preview of it, from 2006.

ROME, June 15, 2010 – Benedict XVI has reached out to those who were expecting a "rethinking" of the rule of celibacy for the Latin clergy. But in his own way.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343736?eng=y
This is primarily a disciplinary issue.
BTW, what is the score for married Orthodox priests with reference to the size of their families on average?
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« Reply #239 on: June 15, 2010, 07:49:45 PM »


BTW, what is the score for married Orthodox priests with reference to the size of their families on average?


Just had a quick think about the priests in this country and the answer is 5.
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« Reply #240 on: June 15, 2010, 08:28:07 PM »

I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.
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« Reply #241 on: June 15, 2010, 08:53:15 PM »

I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.

Maybe living in a south pacific paradise inclines a man to produce children?    A few months ago it was discovered that there is a low level of zinc in our food intake and it is causing low fertility for men's sperm.  Guess what is now the most popular dietary supplement?!   laugh
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stanley123
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« Reply #242 on: June 15, 2010, 09:55:39 PM »

I know some priests with small families. Actually not too many come to mind with 5, but you may be right.
Well, 5 is great, but my guess is that Orthodox priests have some catching up to do, at least with the Muslim families in our neighborhood who have 6 or more children.
Anyway, I still like your suggestion about Catholic priests getting married. It seems only right that all Catholic priests and bishops should get married and have large families of 10 children or so to set a good example to the Catholic families of their parish who are content with only two children.
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« Reply #243 on: June 15, 2010, 09:58:30 PM »

What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?
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« Reply #244 on: June 15, 2010, 10:11:46 PM »

What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?

Basically, it defies naturalist computationalism. We need to compute our families naturally based on nature. I hope I don't have to explain this. However, I could point you to another thread on this................. Um... maybe better just to PM me.
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« Reply #245 on: June 16, 2010, 12:56:26 AM »

What exactly is wrong with a family being "content with only two children"?
Are your reading this in the context of post #190 (May 16, 2010)? The allegation in that post was that Muslims are taking over Europe. My contention is that this will obviously occur since the Christian birth rate in Europe today is quite a bit lower than the Muslim birth rate. Add to that the high abortion rate in some Christian countries and you have the inevitable higher rate of increase of the Muslim population in Europe today.
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« Reply #246 on: June 16, 2010, 01:22:46 AM »

Are your reading this in the context of post #190 (May 16, 2010)? The allegation in that post was that Muslims are taking over Europe. My contention is that this will obviously occur since the Christian birth rate in Europe today is quite a bit lower than the Muslim birth rate. Add to that the high abortion rate in some Christian countries and you have the inevitable higher rate of increase of the Muslim population in Europe today.
Yes, I am reading it in context of that post.  It is just besides this need to outbreed Muslims, I don't see why a Priest/Bishop having a brood of children is such a positive example. 

Integration into Western society is incredibly important and something we must focus on, especially amongst their youth.  Many larger families, from my experiences, have been from more recent migrants and isolated familes, while more Westernised Muslim families will have your standard 1 - 3 children.
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« Reply #247 on: June 19, 2010, 01:11:38 AM »

General Abuse

My Take: Why I can't accept the pope's latest apology

Author: David Clohessy

Date Published: 6/14/2010

Publication: CNN Belief Blog


Editor's Note: David Clohessy is executive director of the U.S.-based international support group SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
___________________________________________________

Let's be brutally honest: all of us want the Catholic Church's ongoing clergy sex abuse and cover-up crisis to end. Like the BP Gulf oil catastrophe or the never-ending Middle East conflict, it's tragic, wearing and seemingly intractable.

In fact, we're all so desperate to see some light-any light-at the end of this awful tunnel that often we look for, cling to, and exaggerate even a hint of progress. It's a dangerous place to be, because such despondency tempts us to seize on "false idols" and apparent glimmers of hope that, sadly, are illusory.

Such is the case with Pope Benedict XVI's apology on Friday.

Maybe, as some commentators claim, he was clearer than in his earlier brief comments on the crisis. Maybe, as a few Rome news correspondents suggest, there's something significant about the pope's location and timing, speaking from his balcony before thousands of priests.

But whether he says more words, clearer words, or even sadder words is fundamentally irrelevant. Words don't protect kids. Actions protect kids. A victim from our group in Virginia says it best: "No child on the planet is safer today because of what the pope said last week."

Hours after the pope's brief and vague abuse remarks, I found myself almost debating over the phone with a young reporter from a major U.S. new outlet. He seemed genuinely incredulous that I wasn't enthusiastic about Benedict's apology about the scandal.

He finally sputtered, "But this is such a grand gesture-an apology straight from the pope himself, right in St. Peter's Square!"

"You nailed it," I replied. "It is a grand gesture. And gestures-large or small-protect no one and change nothing."

Searching for any analogy that might help him better understand what's at stake, I propose that I passively watch while a criminal struggles with a child who can't swim and eventually throws the youngster into a swirling river. "Say I first whisper an apology, then apologize in a conversational tone, and finally shout `I'm so sorry' at the top of my lungs. None of that stops the child from drowning."

When it comes to the safety of children, only actions matter.

And in this crisis, decisive action is clearly possible. The pope is a monarch. He rules the worldwide church. It's not a complex, messy democracy in which delicate negotiations and balancing acts and compromises are inevitable.

The pope could issue a decree tomorrow mandating that each of the world's roughly 2,800 dioceses post on their websites the names of all proven, admitted, and credibly accused child-molesting clerics in their diocese. Bishops who don't comply would be ousted.

On most issues, talk is the pope's only weapon. He can't issue orders to combat world hunger, the AIDS epidemic, economic inequity or global warming.

With predatory priests and complicit bishops, however, he's got real power. That's what makes his refusal to act so inexcusable. Benedict really could, almost instantly, make children safer. He's been a Vatican bureaucrat for decades and the pope for five years. He has had ample time to deter future crimes and cover-ups by publicly punishing and removing those who commit, ignore or conceal child sexual abuse.

Thankfully, however, there are proven solutions that don't rely strictly on the church hierarchy. Let's face it: real reform of private institutions often comes only through outside pressure. No entity can effectively police itself, least of all an ancient, rigid, secretive, all-male monarchy with a widely-documented track record with predatory employees and complicit supervisors.

Here is what government officials can and should do:

-First, launch independent, thorough investigations into the extent of cover-ups of clergy sexual abuse in each Catholic entity-dioceses, schools and religious orders. That's what the Irish government has done. Only when a crisis is understood can it then be effectively addressed.

-Second, aggressively and creatively use existing laws to criminally pursue child molesting clerics and their complicit colleagues and managers.

-Third, eliminate or reform predator-friendly laws, including statutes of limitations, that give child sex offenders and their enablers incentive to destroy evidence, threaten witnesses, intimidate victims, fabricate alibis and flee the country.

Apologies and forgiveness, as SNAP's founder Barbara Blaine often says, are appropriate after, not during, a crisis. At this point, such pleas are at best well-meaning but inappropriate distractions from "job one"-protecting the vulnerable. With that task, sadly, the pope has barely begun. So secular authorities need to step in.

And when most predators are ousted and most enablers are disciplined, then the task of healing the wounded and understanding the crisis and devising longer-term remedies can begin. That's when real light, not illusory light, will appear at the end of this tragic tunnel. We owe it to children-those being molested today and those who will be molested tomorrow-to help create and hold out for that light.
___________________________________________________

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Clohessy.


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« Reply #248 on: June 19, 2010, 10:48:08 PM »

General Abuse

My Take: Why I can't accept the pope's latest apology

Author: David Clohessy

Date Published: 6/14/2010

Publication: CNN Belief Blog


Editor's Note: David Clohessy is executive director of the U.S.-based international support group SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.
___________________________________________________

Let's be brutally honest: all of us want the Catholic Church's ongoing clergy sex abuse and cover-up crisis to end. Like the BP Gulf oil catastrophe or the never-ending Middle East conflict, it's tragic, wearing and seemingly intractable.

In fact, we're all so desperate to see some light-any light-at the end of this awful tunnel that often we look for, cling to, and exaggerate even a hint of progress. It's a dangerous place to be, because such despondency tempts us to seize on "false idols" and apparent glimmers of hope that, sadly, are illusory.

Such is the case with Pope Benedict XVI's apology on Friday.

Maybe, as some commentators claim, he was clearer than in his earlier brief comments on the crisis. Maybe, as a few Rome news correspondents suggest, there's something significant about the pope's location and timing, speaking from his balcony before thousands of priests.

But whether he says more words, clearer words, or even sadder words is fundamentally irrelevant. Words don't protect kids. Actions protect kids. A victim from our group in Virginia says it best: "No child on the planet is safer today because of what the pope said last week."

Hours after the pope's brief and vague abuse remarks, I found myself almost debating over the phone with a young reporter from a major U.S. new outlet. He seemed genuinely incredulous that I wasn't enthusiastic about Benedict's apology about the scandal.

He finally sputtered, "But this is such a grand gesture-an apology straight from the pope himself, right in St. Peter's Square!"

"You nailed it," I replied. "It is a grand gesture. And gestures-large or small-protect no one and change nothing."

Searching for any analogy that might help him better understand what's at stake, I propose that I passively watch while a criminal struggles with a child who can't swim and eventually throws the youngster into a swirling river. "Say I first whisper an apology, then apologize in a conversational tone, and finally shout `I'm so sorry' at the top of my lungs. None of that stops the child from drowning."

When it comes to the safety of children, only actions matter.

And in this crisis, decisive action is clearly possible. The pope is a monarch. He rules the worldwide church. It's not a complex, messy democracy in which delicate negotiations and balancing acts and compromises are inevitable.

The pope could issue a decree tomorrow mandating that each of the world's roughly 2,800 dioceses post on their websites the names of all proven, admitted, and credibly accused child-molesting clerics in their diocese. Bishops who don't comply would be ousted.

On most issues, talk is the pope's only weapon. He can't issue orders to combat world hunger, the AIDS epidemic, economic inequity or global warming.

With predatory priests and complicit bishops, however, he's got real power. That's what makes his refusal to act so inexcusable. Benedict really could, almost instantly, make children safer. He's been a Vatican bureaucrat for decades and the pope for five years. He has had ample time to deter future crimes and cover-ups by publicly punishing and removing those who commit, ignore or conceal child sexual abuse.

Thankfully, however, there are proven solutions that don't rely strictly on the church hierarchy. Let's face it: real reform of private institutions often comes only through outside pressure. No entity can effectively police itself, least of all an ancient, rigid, secretive, all-male monarchy with a widely-documented track record with predatory employees and complicit supervisors.

Here is what government officials can and should do:

-First, launch independent, thorough investigations into the extent of cover-ups of clergy sexual abuse in each Catholic entity-dioceses, schools and religious orders. That's what the Irish government has done. Only when a crisis is understood can it then be effectively addressed.

-Second, aggressively and creatively use existing laws to criminally pursue child molesting clerics and their complicit colleagues and managers.

-Third, eliminate or reform predator-friendly laws, including statutes of limitations, that give child sex offenders and their enablers incentive to destroy evidence, threaten witnesses, intimidate victims, fabricate alibis and flee the country.

Apologies and forgiveness, as SNAP's founder Barbara Blaine often says, are appropriate after, not during, a crisis. At this point, such pleas are at best well-meaning but inappropriate distractions from "job one"-protecting the vulnerable. With that task, sadly, the pope has barely begun. So secular authorities need to step in.

And when most predators are ousted and most enablers are disciplined, then the task of healing the wounded and understanding the crisis and devising longer-term remedies can begin. That's when real light, not illusory light, will appear at the end of this tragic tunnel. We owe it to children-those being molested today and those who will be molested tomorrow-to help create and hold out for that light.
___________________________________________________

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Clohessy.




This is a bit of the sound and fury since all the author suggests has been being done already yet!!

He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.  It is now an appropriate time for the Holy Father to express all that he has expressed publicly.

It still has to be repeated that the overall instances of abuse in the Catholic Church at their worst are still no more than other public institutions that deal with children and NOTHING out-paces the family itself when it comes to abuse of children.

Loss of perspective is a deadly condition, and leads to excessive backlash and stupid errors of judgment that can do more harm than the original injustice.  That applies, across the boards, to all self appointed judges and witnesses.

Mary
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« Reply #249 on: June 28, 2010, 07:08:21 AM »



Oh my!  The Belgian Police have held the entire episcopate of the Belgian Catholic Church under restraint for 9 hours and removed computers and masses of internal church documentation on sexual abuse.    The Pope is livid!
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« Reply #250 on: June 28, 2010, 08:14:53 AM »



Oh my!  The Belgian Police have held the entire episcopate of the Belgian Catholic Church under restraint for 9 hours and removed computers and masses of internal church documentation on sexual abuse.    The Pope is livid!
He should remember what the kitty said.
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« Reply #251 on: June 28, 2010, 11:20:55 AM »

Pope criticises 'deplorable' Belgian Church raid

By Ljubomir Milasin (AFP)

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday accused Belgian police of "deplorable methods" in raiding a bishops' meeting as part of a paedophilia probe, as Brussels said the Vatican was over-reacting......

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jWzlH8kMkrKsPBAVI2KhNhR9cRlA
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« Reply #252 on: June 28, 2010, 11:25:21 AM »


Vatican lawyers fight attempt to interrogate Pope Benedict

By John L. Allen, Jr.

On the same day that Belgian police raided church offices to seize documents in a sex abuse probe, the Vatican found itself in the courts of another country, this time the United States, trying to fend off attempts to interrogate the pope and other senior Vatican officials in another case involving clerical sexual abuse.

Vatican attorneys filed a brief on Thursday in U.S. District Court in Kentucky in the case of O’Bryan v. Holy See, opposing requests from lawyers representing three sex abuse victims for depositions of four figures at the very top of the church’s power structure:

• Pope Benedict XVI
• Italian Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican’s Secretary of State
• American Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
• Italian Archbishop Pietro Sambi, the Vatican’s nuncio, or ambassador, in the United States

Read more:   http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/06/27/vatican-lawyer-fight-attempt-to-interrogate-benedict/

http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/06/27/vatican-lawyer-fight-attempt-to-interrogate-benedict/#ixzz0sA5RYZHz


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« Reply #253 on: June 28, 2010, 11:39:35 AM »


He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.

I am not sure if you have made the right judgement call.

There is the crisis in Europe which seems to be in its incipient stages and far from over.

There is the crisis in the US which to judge by the information now appearing is also far from over, especially with the several attempts to indict or depose the Pope and senior cardinals in the American courts.
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« Reply #254 on: June 28, 2010, 12:31:58 PM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?
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« Reply #255 on: June 28, 2010, 12:36:42 PM »


He makes it sound as though the "crisis" is on-going.   It is not.  Finding OLD cases is on-going.  Any new cases are picked up immediately and there are extremely few accusations, true or false, being presented today.  The "crisis" is over.

I am not sure if you have made the right judgement call.

There is the crisis in Europe which seems to be in its incipient stages and far from over.

There is the crisis in the US which to judge by the information now appearing is also far from over, especially with the several attempts to indict or depose the Pope and senior cardinals in the American courts.

I will yield your point if and only if:

1. There is clear and direct evidence that there are a significant number of new cases surfacing rather than current attention drawn to old cases.

2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM
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« Reply #256 on: June 28, 2010, 01:01:11 PM »

I think Rome has hit an all-time low with credibility. Pope Benny didn't step down?

Can you at least be respectful enough to refer to him as Pope Benedict?
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« Reply #257 on: June 28, 2010, 01:08:12 PM »


2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM

It would seem that the Belgian Police, judging by the literally hundreds of newspaper reports, see these Belgian cases as new cases (new cases for the justice system at least but known to the Roman Catholic Church authorities.)  The intense culture of secrecy pervading European Catholicism has meant the concealment of these crimes from the civil authorities.

I think therefore that you are just playing somewhat disingenuous word games by banging on about "new" cases.    For example, the abuse by Bishop Roger Vangheluwe of Bruges was revealed only 3 months ago in April and many of the cases in Europe are "new" cases.  
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« Reply #258 on: June 28, 2010, 01:11:35 PM »

Belgium church panel on sex abuse shuts after raid
By ROBERT WIELAARD (AP) – 55 minutes ago

BRUSSELS — A panel appointed by the Catholic church to investigate clerical sex abuse in Belgium is shutting down after police seized all its files during a raid last week, the group's chairman said Monday.

Peter Adriaenssens, a child psychiatrist who chaired the panel, said authorities betrayed the trust of nearly 500 victims who had made complaints over the past two months to the church panel and blamed state prosecutors for pursuing victims too traumatized to speak to police.

More at

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gI5tWYlvPP5P0wkYeyn3thMVdP6wD9GKCK100
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« Reply #259 on: June 28, 2010, 02:32:48 PM »


2.  There is clear and direct evidence that there are currently efforts to hide this abundance of new cases of abuse.

Till then I will stand by my comment.

EM

It would seem that the Belgian Police, judging by the literally hundreds of newspaper reports, see these Belgian cases as new cases (new cases for the justice system at least but known to the Roman Catholic Church authorities.)  The intense culture of secrecy pervading European Catholicism has meant the concealment of these crimes from the civil authorities.

I think therefore that you are just playing somewhat disingenuous word games by banging on about "new" cases.    For example, the abuse by Bishop Roger Vangheluwe of Bruges was revealed only 3 months ago in April and many of the cases in Europe are "new" cases.  

New to the authorities is an even more disingenuous, since the data shows that most of the "old" cases in the United States had been reported to the police and all and sundry ignored them...

It seems from other reports that I have seen that the real "news" is that finally, after 60 years and plenty of bad press and the fact that the legal system's historic lack of interest in protecting both women and children from sexual crimes,  the police are taking an interest lest they be charged with misfeasance as well.

Mary
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« Reply #260 on: June 28, 2010, 03:26:13 PM »

Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case


(Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court refused on Monday to consider whether the Vatican has legal immunity over the sexual abuse of minors by priests in the United States, allowing a lawsuit filed in 2002 to go forward.

U.S.

The nation's highest court, asked to rule on a U.S. appeals court decision that cleared the way for the lawsuit to proceed, rejected the Vatican's immunity appeal without comment.

The lawsuit, filed by a plaintiff identified only as John Doe, claimed he was sexually abused on several occasions in the mid-1960s when he was 15 or 16 by a Roman Catholic priest named Father Andrew Ronan.

According to court documents, Ronan molested boys in the mid-1950s as a priest in Ireland and then in Chicago before his transfer to a church in Portland, Oregon, where he allegedly abused the victim who filed the lawsuit. Ronan died in 1992.

The Vatican claimed immunity under a U.S. law, the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act of 1976, that allows foreign states to avoid being sued in court.

But the law contains exceptions. The appeals court cited one of those, ruling the lawsuit has sufficiently alleged that Ronan was an employee of the Vatican acting within the scope of his employment under Oregon law.

Pope Benedict met victims of abuse by priests during his April 2008 visit to the United States. The U.S. church has paid $2 billion in settlements to victims since 1992.

In recent months, child abuse allegations against Catholic priests have rocked the United States and Europe, forcing resignations of bishops in Ireland, Belgium and Germany in the biggest crisis in Benedict's five-year pontificate.

In the Oregon case, the Obama administration backed the Vatican and said the appeals court erred in ruling that a victim's claim of sexual abuse by a priest falls within the exception to foreign sovereign immunity law.

But administration lawyers said the ruling did not warrant review by the Supreme Court "at this time."

(Editing by John O'Callaghan)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65R3UB20100628



Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
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« Reply #261 on: June 28, 2010, 03:30:36 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad
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« Reply #262 on: June 28, 2010, 04:43:17 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
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« Reply #263 on: June 28, 2010, 04:50:57 PM »

Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?
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« Reply #264 on: June 28, 2010, 05:01:05 PM »

Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Good point. Catholic Church will best clean itself from within. Likewise, their Church will seek unity with other Christians if Catholics pressure the leadership.

This is probably not a problem we as Orthodox can directly make them fix.
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« Reply #265 on: June 28, 2010, 05:28:18 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
A very common misconception, I think.  Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried.  I don't see that allowing ordained men a legitimate way to act on their sexual desires is going to reduce the incidence of sexual abuse of children, since pedophilia and ephebophilia are really, to my knowledge, psychological disorders that have very little to do with sexual desire per se.
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« Reply #266 on: June 28, 2010, 06:18:01 PM »

Supreme Court rejects Vatican appeal in sex abuse case
....
Ughhhh. This whole situation is aweful and getting worse by the minute. Please keep us Catholics in your prayers.
Aren't there at least 4 Catholics on the SCOTUS?

Six at present: Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Sotomeyer.  I don't know how strong their practices are, just that at one time or another, they were attached to the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #267 on: June 28, 2010, 06:35:16 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
A very common misconception, I think.  Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried.  I don't see that allowing ordained men a legitimate way to act on their sexual desires is going to reduce the incidence of sexual abuse of children, since pedophilia and ephebophilia are really, to my knowledge, psychological disorders that have very little to do with sexual desire per se.



"Those who sexually abuse children are just as likely to do so if they're married as they are if they're unmarried."

This could be correct. Persons could be just as likely to abuse kids whether they are married or not.

However, this seems different from the celibacy situation where you require people to make a choice between having a family and having to be celibate forever.

A young person with normal health and normal love of kids might be faced with a very tough choice. He might say "I can serve God in some way and have a family too" without having the priesthood.
Others will have no such compunction.
Thus, an absolute celibacy for all priests acts as a kind of large-scale filter.

Thus, even if marriage itself doesn't prevent someone from hurting kids, and unhealthy people are about as likely to get married, then still for most people, who don't seriously consider the priesthood, the choice of dedicating to celibacy is not a factor.

Further, I heard that the Orthodox model for a parish is generally to have a Batushka and Matushka, who play similar roles in caring for their parish as a family. Basically, I think Orthodoxy treats this model as the healthy model of how a parish should be.
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« Reply #268 on: June 28, 2010, 07:59:59 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad
Pesecution and prosecution are not the same thing.
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« Reply #269 on: June 28, 2010, 08:03:32 PM »

I am not the kind of person who runs around saying the sky is falling, or that the end is near, but I wonder if this whole situation is going to lead to widespread persecution of the Catholic Church. Sad

Do you consider preventing abuse of children a danger to the Catholic Church?

Just allow married clergy like in ancient church and problem will get alot less.
What a silly question. Its like asking "Do you still beat your wife?". You can't answer it without losing.
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