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Author Topic: Pope under pressure as abuse claims sweep Church in Europe  (Read 28223 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #180 on: May 16, 2010, 11:09:18 AM »


I didn't know you brought Anglican clergy in by vesting and confession...

Generally we don't although it was trialed, briefly and very unsuccessfully by the Greek Archdiocese of Australia at the time of the Anglican ordination of women.  So Anglicans are really always ordained, whereas Catholics may be received in their rank by economy which valourises their Catholic Orders or they may be received by baptism in which case they are devoid of priesthood.  The whole matter of reception in Orthodoxy is very fluid, and based on what is best for the individual converting and for the Church.

One of the wonderful things about Orthodoxy is that it is content to allow some things to remain in gray areas rather than nailing them down in black and white.   These gray areas allow room for the Holy Spirit to work freely within the Church, so that bishops may make decisions under His guidance (sometimes seemingly contrary decisions) so that in all things Christ may be glorified and salvation extended to the world.

Here is something from Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, one of Russia's eminent theologians prior to the Revolution, Metropolitan of Kiev, and later, the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

 "Why Anglican Clergy Could Be Received in Their Orders"
 http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/khrapovitsky_orders1927.html

 The conclusion:

"Thus the adoption of one or the other mode of reception for those of
 other confessions who enter the Church (that is, heretics or
 schismatics) depends on ecclesiastical economy, on the judgment of the
 local bishops and the Councils, and on the existence of the outward
 form of the sacraments of baptism, chrismation and orders in the
 communities from which the applicants come."

"Therefore, in our opinion, Anglicans may be admitted by the third
 rite, especially in view of the sincere and humble aspiration of many
 of them to be united to our holy Church."


Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

M.

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« Reply #181 on: May 16, 2010, 11:29:14 AM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #182 on: May 16, 2010, 11:33:01 AM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

M.
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« Reply #183 on: May 16, 2010, 11:47:55 AM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?
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« Reply #184 on: May 16, 2010, 11:55:28 AM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Let us hope that the Russians will establish an academy for priests in the States as they have recently done in Paris to train good clergy for Western Europe.  It's just what America needs.  Maybe our seminarains could attend there as well.

I recall at the time when ROCA was discussing union with Moscow a few years back and Moscow clergy started to visit the States.  They expressed their dismay at the low level of theological education they encountered among many American clergy.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #185 on: May 16, 2010, 11:58:12 AM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?

The Gray Areas have many advocates, both in Orthodoxy and in the Catholic Church.

I tend to advocate in the areas where sinners are most likely to become ensnared and can find no way out because the Guardians of the Gray Areas are eager to keep them penned in.

M.
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« Reply #186 on: May 16, 2010, 12:05:10 PM »

[
Gray areas, eh?   Cool  Yes indeed.  Gray areas.  I like that Father.  That's why we lost those battles against the convert priests on the Orthodox Forum over real presence in the Eucharist. 
They were all FIRMLY entrenched in one of them Gray Areas!!

You can have most of 'em!!

 

You also said that we lost in a previous message but I am not really sure that we did. I had positive feedback from priests at the time and an OCA bishop wrote to say they knew of this problem with untrained convert priests and planned to address it..

But what is the percentage of Catholic priests these days who have no belief in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, not even His physical body and blood, let alone His soul and divinity. You are very welcome to those clergy!!

LOL...from what I am hearing on the grapevine, they are moving to Orthodoxy because they prefer them Gray areas!!  And you are getting the un-happy faithful as well who also like the Gray Areas.  And soon you'll be ordaining them as priests and bishops and American Orthodoxy will be more than ever the Orthodoxy of Gray Areas.

I congratulate you, and your Gray Areas!!

Are you really an Eastern Catholic?   The ones I know have an appreciation for the use of economy in church life.  Do you not discuss these things with them?

The Gray Areas have many advocates, both in Orthodoxy and in the Catholic Church.

I tend to advocate in the areas where sinners are most likely to become ensnared and can find no way out because the Guardians of the Gray Areas are eager to keep them penned in.

M.

You're just being contrary.  Looking back over your participation on the forum I would say that you are a dab hand with the Gray Areas. 
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« Reply #187 on: May 16, 2010, 07:04:46 PM »

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2





AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
           Buzz up!44 votes Send
Email IM .Share
Facebook Twitter Delicious Digg Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – Pope Benedict XVI blesses faithful from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the …
. Slideshow:Papacy and the Vatican .




By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Sun May 16, 3:22 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed argument yet for why it is not liable for bishops who allowed priests to molest children in the U.S., in a motion that could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See in American courts, The Associated Press has learned.

In a motion to dismiss a lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds, the Holy See is expected to argue that a key Vatican document calling for secrecy in church trials for sex abuse cases was not, as victims' lawyers say, proof of a Vatican-orchestrated cover up. The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said Sunday there was no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used.

In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.





He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope altogether as a basis for civil liability, because it entangles the court in an analysis of complicated religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 in district court in Louisville, Kentucky, by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. Their attorney, William McMurry, is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country.

The Vatican's motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a new lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
elijahmaria
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« Reply #188 on: May 16, 2010, 08:14:11 PM »

Is your vision really that dim?

In the first place the petition on the part of the Vatican is accurate and must be put forward and IF they loose then every other religious organization including Orthodoxy is in serious jeopardy of being treated as a secular bureaucracy.

The money that the Vatican has been sending to eastern Europe and Russia for nearly 22 years now will dry up.  There will be no money for Greece to help there.

And you will indeed have your wish.

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.

You do not really think that the warming that's been going on with the Vatican and Orthodox leaders is some silly expression of brotherly love do you.  We know the drill.  Nobody on the Catholic side is fooled.  Orthodoxy talks about sharing "moral" concerns when Orthodox morality is nothing like Catholic morality.  We know what they want to "share" and it ain't teaching on contraception and abortion or divorce!!

M.

Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2





AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
           Buzz up!44 votes Send
Email IM .Share
Facebook Twitter Delicious Digg Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – Pope Benedict XVI blesses faithful from the window of his studio overlooking St. Peter's Square, at the …
. Slideshow:Papacy and the Vatican .




By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer – Sun May 16, 3:22 pm ET
VATICAN CITY – The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed argument yet for why it is not liable for bishops who allowed priests to molest children in the U.S., in a motion that could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See in American courts, The Associated Press has learned.

In a motion to dismiss a lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds, the Holy See is expected to argue that a key Vatican document calling for secrecy in church trials for sex abuse cases was not, as victims' lawyers say, proof of a Vatican-orchestrated cover up. The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said Sunday there was no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used.

In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.





He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope altogether as a basis for civil liability, because it entangles the court in an analysis of complicated religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 in district court in Louisville, Kentucky, by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. Their attorney, William McMurry, is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country.

The Vatican's motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a new lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.

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« Reply #189 on: May 16, 2010, 08:48:44 PM »


Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 
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« Reply #190 on: May 16, 2010, 08:54:51 PM »

This Will Give You Cold Chills!
Geert Wilders is a Dutch Member of Parliament.




In a generation or two, the US will ask itself: Who lost Europe ?'

Here is the speech of Geert Wilders, Chairman, Party for Freedom, the Netherlands , at the Four Seasons, New York , introducing an Alliance of Patriots and announcing the Facing Jihad Conference in Jerusalem .

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission.  All is not well in the old world.  There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic.  We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe.  This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West.  The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe .  Then, I will say a few things about Islam.  To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem .

The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe .  With larger congregations than there are in churches.  And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region.  Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam , Marseille and Malmo in Sweden .  In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim.  Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods.  Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities.

In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims.

Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils.  In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims.  Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore'.  Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin.

In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin .  The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity.

In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves.  Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels , because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.  French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya , Israel .  I could go on forever with stories like this.  Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe .  San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now.  Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers.  And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate.  But there are few signs of that.  The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France .  One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks.  The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate.  Muslims demand what they call 'respect'.  And this is how we give them respect.  We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority.  We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey .

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots.  Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus.  I call the perpetrators 'settlers'.  Because that is what they are.  They do not come to integrate into our societies; they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam.  Therefore, they are settlers.

Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries.  Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet.  His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized.  Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem.  But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time.  Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed.  Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.  If it is good for Islam, it is good.  If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion.  Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins.  But in its essence Islam is a political ideology.  It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person.  Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.  Islam means 'submission'.  Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.  If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran.  The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor.  I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times.  I support Israel .  First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance.  Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines , Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan , Lebanon , and Aceh in Indonesia .  Israel is simply in the way.  The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel .  It is a war against the West.  It is jihad.  Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us.  If there would have been no Israel , Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest.  Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.

Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities.  But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values.  On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam.  They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed.  The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning.  It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination.  If they can get Israel , they can get everything.  So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'.  In my country, the Netherlands , 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II.  And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat.  Yet there is a greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing.  The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine.  An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for America - as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs.  With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome , Athens and Jerusalem .

Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts.  My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives.  All throughout Europe , American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish.  My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians.  We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us.  We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams.  Future generations would never forgive us.  We cannot squander our liberties.  We simply do not have the right to do so.

We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.
 
http://europenews.dk/en/node/14505
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #191 on: May 16, 2010, 09:52:57 PM »


Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.
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« Reply #192 on: May 16, 2010, 10:05:30 PM »


Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #193 on: May 16, 2010, 10:14:06 PM »


Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       

 angel  They should be the most comfortable in the new world order then!!

M.
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« Reply #194 on: May 16, 2010, 10:30:20 PM »


Is your vision really that dim?

Better start picking out the color of your turban if the Vatican is weakened in all of this.


Is *your* vision really so dim?  Surely you know that Catholic Europe is facing a Muslim take-over.  In Belgium the Muslims have accounted for more than 50% of the births for 6 years.  The most commonly registered baby name in Catholic Belgium is now Muhammed!! 

Eh?....

I think I am the one who mentioned that if the Vatican falls y'all will be picking out the color of your turbans for real.

Maybe you didn't read that far.

M.


Mary  Mary...Some Oriental orthodox clergy wear turban's  i see nothing wrong with it do you even some, of the schismatic oriental catholic clergy do as well......   


A joke i read on line...When a Muslim celebrates the coming of age ,He removes his diaper and wraps it around his head...                                                                                                                                                       

 angel  They should be the most comfortable in the new world order then!!

Good grief! Shocked

May God forbid that real Christians anywhere would find a New Age New World Order acceptable, either now or ever!  Sad

Cosmos


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« Reply #195 on: May 17, 2010, 04:14:51 AM »


Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y
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« Reply #196 on: May 17, 2010, 04:38:48 AM »


Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y

The one thing I think you're overlooking, though, is that the Pope is trying to protect the Vatican against liability in a civil lawsuit by claiming that, according to the rules governing worldly bureaucracies, his bishops are not his employees, and he is therefore not legally responsible for what they do.  You and I both know that, according to Latin ecclesiology as we understand it, he IS responsible for what his bishops do in that he rules over them as their bishop, but the issue here is civil law, not canon law or ecclesiology, which Pope Benedict very wisely does not want to submit to the purview of secular authorities.
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« Reply #197 on: May 17, 2010, 04:51:21 AM »


Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y

The one thing I think you're overlooking, though, is that the Pope is trying to protect the Vatican against liability in a civil lawsuit by claiming that, according to the rules governing worldly bureaucracies, his bishops are not his employees, and he is therefore not legally responsible for what they do.  You and I both know that, according to Latin ecclesiology as we understand it, he IS responsible for what his bishops do in that he rules over them as their bishop, but the issue here is civil law, not canon law or ecclesiology, which Pope Benedict very wisely does not want to submit to the purview of secular authorities.


The Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church is simply the Rules of Incorporation and governance of one particular worldwide organisation headed by a CEO in Rome.  Every business, every incorporated society, every trust, has such rules which regulate its life.

The fact the the Pope sees it this way also is shown by the secret directive which he sent to the bishops instructing them how to deal with abuse complaints.  He obviously sees them as subordinate to him and he has a right under the Rules of his organisation to instruct them and to expect them to obey him and after all, they do all take an oath of obedience to him.
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« Reply #198 on: May 17, 2010, 09:52:56 AM »


Vatican still trying  deflect blame to others and not itself..... Grin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100516/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_s_defense_2


AP Exclusive: Vatican details US sex abuse defense
         
In addition, the Holy See is expected to assert that bishops aren't Vatican employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their workers, Lena told the AP.


Outrageous!   The Pope pretending he is not responsible for the bishops.  An outright denial of the Code of Canon Law.

Look at the exact opposite point of view from Cardinal Iniguez (Alonso's bishop, I think.)  He is likely to be sent by thje Pope as the papal investigator of the sexual abuse in the Legionaries of Christ.   Iniguez is certain that he is bound by his "oath of obedience" to the Pope, in the same way as I imagine obedience is demanded from a Major to his General.

"As for the delegate, the only candidacy taken under consideration at the Vatican meeting on April 30 and May 1, that of Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, 77, the outgoing archbishop of Guadalajara, has had no follow-up. The cardinal has said that he was not approached and does not consider himself to be the right person, while saying that in any case he is at the disposal of the Holy Father, bound to him by the oath of obedience."

"Legion Leaders Absolve Themselves Before They Sink"
May 17, 2010

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343324?eng=y


Well Father,

You must read canon law as if it were secular law or military law with all it that meaning imbued.

But the counter argument of course is that canon law does not set out the same kinds of relationships that are established in secular and military law.

You better hope that the counter argument wins because if you think that Orthodoxy is strong enough alone to meet what is coming head on without capitulating...then you have not read your recent Orthodox history very well.

Mary
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« Reply #199 on: May 17, 2010, 02:27:28 PM »

“People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument” Will Rogers

Cosmos  Undecided
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« Reply #200 on: May 19, 2010, 08:18:44 AM »

Vatican to court: Priests are not our employees

Attorney outlines defense ahead of filing Monday in sex abuse case
By NICOLE WINFIELD

Sun., May 16, 2010

VATICAN CITY - The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed defense yet against claims that it is liable for U.S. bishops who allowed priests to molest children, saying bishops are not its employees and that a 1962 Vatican document did not require them to keep quiet, The Associated Press has learned.

The Vatican will make the arguments in a motion to dismiss a federal lawsuit on jurisdictional grounds filed in Louisville, Kentucky, but it could affect other efforts to sue the Holy See.

The Vatican's U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Lena, said it will include a response to claims that the 1962 document "Crimen Sollicitationis" — Latin for "crimes of solicitation" — barred bishops from reporting abuse to police.

Lena said Sunday there is no evidence the document was even known to the archdiocese in question — much less used — and that regardless it didn't mandate that bishops not report abusive priests.

Lena said the confidentiality imposed by Crimen did not trump civil law and was applied only in formal canonical processes, which bishops had the discretion to suspend if there was a conflict with reporting laws.

"It is important that people — particularly people who have suffered abuse — know that, contrary to what some plaintiffs' lawyers have consistently told the media, the canon law did not bar reporting of these crimes to the civil authorities," Lena told the AP.

'Smoking gun' document?
The document describes how church authorities should deal procedurally with cases of abuse of children by priests, cases where sex is solicited in the confessional — a particularly heinous crime under canon law — and cases of homosexuality and bestiality.

The attorney behind the Kentucky case, William McMurry, said in a recent e-mail that the document is "a smoking gun."

"It's evidence of a 'written' policy that demands no mention be made by a bishop of priest sex abuse," he said. "Since our case, and no other, is about holding the Vatican accountable for the bishops' failure to report to civil authorities, any policy that gags the bishop is relevant and material."

The Holy See is trying to fend off the first U.S. case to reach the stage of determining whether victims actually have a claim against the Vatican itself for negligence for the failure of bishops to alert police or the public about Roman Catholic priests who molested children.

The case was filed in 2004 by three men who claim they were abused by priests decades ago and claim negligence by the Vatican. McMurry is seeking class-action status for the case, saying there are thousands of victims across the country. McMurry also represented 243 sex abuse victims who settled with the Archdiocese of Louisville in 2003 for $25.3 million.

The Vatican is seeking to dismiss the suit before Pope Benedict XVI can be questioned or documents subpoenaed.

Its motion is being closely watched as the clerical abuse scandal swirls around the Holy See, since the court's eventual decision could have implications for a lawsuit naming top Vatican officials that was recently filed in Wisconsin and another one in Oregon is pending before the Supreme Court.

The Vatican is expected to assert that bishops aren't its employees because they aren't paid by Rome, don't act on Rome's behalf and aren't controlled day-to-day by the pope — factors courts use to determine whether employers are liable for the actions of their employees, Lena told the AP.

He said he would suggest to the court that it should avoid using the religious nature of the relationship between bishops and the pope as a basis for civil liability because it entangles the court in an analysis of religious doctrine that dates back to the apostles.

"He (McMurry) wishes to invoke religious authority to construct a civil employment relationship, and our view is that it's an inappropriate invitation to the court to consider religious doctrine," Lena said. "Courts tend to avoid constructing civil relationships out of religious materials."

Hiring vs. oath of office

McMurry has alleged that the Vatican had clear and direct control over bishops, mandated a policy of secrecy, and is therefore liable for the bishops' failure to report abuse. He is seeking unspecified damages.

McMurry has said that based on district and appellate court rulings, he doesn't need to prove bishops were employees of the Vatican but merely "officials." He noted that they take an oath of office. The pope appoints, disciplines and removes bishops.

If a bishop wants to spend more than $5 million he must ask permission from Rome, and if he wants to take a three-month sabbatical, he needs the Holy See's OK, said McMurry's main expert witness, the Rev. Thomas P. Doyle, a canon lawyer who worked at the Vatican's U.S. nunziature.

"For the defense to claim that what's necessary is to show day-to-day monitoring is unrealistic," Doyle said. "That is not a viable argument to show the Vatican has direct control over the bishops."

The AP in March reported on an outline of the Holy See's strategy in Kentucky that was contained in a litigation plan filed with the court. On Monday, the Holy See is expected to flesh out that outline by filing a motion to dismiss the case on the grounds that the court doesn't have jurisdiction under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which protects sovereign states from being sued in U.S. courts except under certain circumstances.

Lena provided some details of the Vatican's approach to the AP ahead of the court filing. The motion also seeks to dismiss the case on the grounds that plaintiffs haven't stated a claim and attacks the factual basis for jurisdiction, including whether the 1962 document ever appeared in the diocese.

Lena has said even Doyle has rejected theories that the document was proof of a Vatican-mandated policy of cover-up. Doyle has said it was evidence of a culture of secrecy that the Catholic Church has perpetuated for centuries.

The Holy See has in previous court filings noted Doyle's own writings and depositions in U.S. court cases against archdioceses, including in Louisville, where Doyle said he hadn't found "any written evidence that the procedures outlined in Crimen were used in a prosecution in the archdiocese of Louisville."

On Sunday, Doyle said his words had been misconstrued.

"He's clearly misunderstood, misconstrued or twisted the things I've said and radically changed their meaning," Doyle said. "I made that statement as an expert witness to indicate the intended negligence on the part of the bishops, not the lack of existence of the law."

He said bishops around the country were all informed about Crimen, and the fact that it remained confidential didn't mean they didn't know about it. He noted that several bishops have said in depositions that they knew of Crimen's existence or had been taught it in seminary.

"The fact that the document was not publicly known is not any way evidence that it was not a viable piece of ecclesial legislation, because it was," he said.




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« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2010, 03:28:10 AM »

The Pope, the Cardinals, the Jesuits. Three Responses to the Scandal

The royal road sketched out by Benedict XVI. Schönborn and O'Malley's shots at Sodano. The roles of Bertone and Fr. Lombardi. The battle of "La Civiltà Cattolica" against the "culture of pedophilia"

by Sandro Magister




ROME, May 20, 2010 – The Catholic hierarchy is responding in three ways to the scandal of sexual abuse committed by priests.

The first is at the initiative of the pope. The second through the work of a few cardinals. The third, thanks to the scholarly Jesuits of "La Civiltà Cattolica," with the imprimatur of the Vatican secretariat of state.......

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343359?eng=y
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« Reply #202 on: May 20, 2010, 05:50:22 AM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. My wife is more than forgiving when I snap at her for no reason. I don't think that she would be that charitable if I were to come home smelling of another woman's perfume.

I concede that we are all sinners, but clergy relinquish the right to even think of engaging in certain classes of sin. When a priest sins sexually he damages the Church the way that crooked judges, lawyers, and police officers damage the legal system. How can anyone not understand this?

Looking back on my seminary years, nobody ever told me that I shouldn't put my hand on an altar boy's private parts, leave my wife for a man, or go to bed with someone other than my wife. Come to think of it, they didn't tell me not to eat yellow snow, either. The faculty assumed that we all knew better.

There's a saying about the word assume. If you don't know it, ask somebody who served in the military to explain it to you. So, rather than assume that seminarians and young clergy know right from wrong with regard to sexual matters, here are some essential rules of behavior for those preparing for and serving in the priesthood:

If you are delaying ordination until you find Miss Right, then be willing to wait for the appropriate woman to come into your life. Rushing into marriage with the wrong person is like voluntarily infecting yourself with an incurable illness. Ask any married person -- our spouse will either make us or break us. The priesthood poses enough difficulties without having the millstone of the wrong wife around your neck.

If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor. If you are married and have persistent sexual fantasies about anyone other than your wife, again, see the confessor.

If your marriage needs fixing, then go to counseling. If counseling doesn't work, you have three options: separation, divorce, or "gutting it out." Finding a mistress is not an acceptable alternative.

Appearances matter. Don't put yourself in situations where your integrity can be challenged. Don't stay in the same room with children when no other adults are present. Don't go swimming with anybody other than other clergy, and certainly not with minors. Don't meet repeatedly for one-on-one counseling sessions with the same person outside of normal office hours. Don't meet with a long-time female friend in a hotel room when you are together at a conference. Don't give rides to a woman or a child unless other people are in the car.

It's not too late until it's too late. If you are counseling a woman and you are attracted to her, send her to another priest. If you are about to walk into the bedroom of a person who is not your wife, walk away. If you are kissing someone other than your wife -- stop, and get on the phone with a priest-friend whom you can trust.
All sexual misconduct is unjustifiable. Some child abusers excuse themselves because they were victims of abuse. Yet plenty of adult survivors of molestations go on to have normal sex lives. Get help. And before you put your hand where it doesn't belong, remember how bad it felt when it was done to you.

And all sexual misconduct deserves the maximum penalty. When persons on the bench, in the bar, or with a badge undermine the legal system they get locked up for a long time; they are held to a higher standard. Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.

And why give a wolf in shepherd's clothing a second chance to ravage the flock? Maybe an adulterous pastor who had one occasion of adultery could be given a second -- and last -- chance, but only after plenty of counseling and a transfer to the other side of the continent. The rest need to be removed.

The second century priest-martyr Haralambos was dragged by his beard through the streets because he refused to deny Christ. In the 21st century, clerics drag the good name of the priesthood and the Church through the tabloids and the evening news. Sexual sin among the clergy must stop.


Rev. Aris P. Metrakos is the pastor of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Columbia, South Carolina. He is frequent retreat leader and speaker for both teens and adults. Prior to attending seminary, Fr. Aris was an aviator for the US Navy. He travels annually to Romania to help the Romanian Orthodox Church establish ministries for Romanian youth. You can contact Fr. Aris at FrMetrakos@orthodoxytoday.org.

Posted: 21-Sep-07
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
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« Reply #203 on: May 26, 2010, 06:20:43 PM »

Obama administration sides with Vatican in Oregon case
by John L Allen Jr on May. 24, 2010 NCR

By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

In a strongly worded brief for the United States Supreme Court, the Obama
administration has sided with the Vatican in an Oregon lawsuit that names the
Holy See as a defendant for its role in the sexual abuse crisis.

In effect, the brief asserts that the standards for an exception to the immunity
that foreign governments enjoy under American law have not been met in the
Oregon case.

Filed on Friday, the brief stops short of recommending that the Supreme Court
directly take up the case of Doe v. Holy See, originally filed in federal
district court in Oregon in 2002. Instead, it suggests that the Supreme Court
set aside the 2009 ruling of an appeals court that allowed the case to go
forward, sending it back for further consideration.

Experts say this is the first time the United States government has officially
expressed an opinion about efforts to sue the Vatican in American courts, as
opposed to the pope personally. In 2005, the U.S. State Department recommended
dismissing Pope Benedict XVI from a Texas lawsuit over the sexual abuse crisis,
on the basis of a separate personal guarantee of immunity enjoyed by heads of
state. The judge in that case complied.

Friday's brief was filed by the Acting Solicitor General of the United States,
the top deputy to Supreme Court nominee Elana Kagan, as well as by officials
from the Attorney General's office and the State Department.

The brief asserts that the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit made a mistake
in ruling that a district court in Oregon has jurisdiction over the claim that
the Vatican is liable for sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests.

Though the legal fine points are complicated, the Obama administration's brief
makes a distinction between two questions:

• The jurisdictional standards for suing a foreign government under the 1976
Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act;
• The liability standards for holding an employer responsible for damages caused
by an employee under Oregon law.

Essentially, the brief argues that before a court can even consider the second
question, it has to resolve the first – and that in the case of the suit against
the Vatican, the standards for overcoming sovereign immunity have not been met.
The brief does not address the substantive question of whether Catholic priests
are actually Vatican "employees" for purposes of American civil law.

The Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act recognizes the general immunity of foreign
governments to being sued in American courts, but also lays out nine exceptions,
including the "tort exception" invoked in the Oregon case. It holds that a
government can be sued for harms caused by its employees and agents in the
course of performing duties within the scope of their employment.

In the Doe v. Holy See case, a district court found that sexual abuse of a minor
is clearly outside the scope of employment of a Catholic priest, meaning the
things a priest is supposed to do on behalf of the church. Nevertheless, Oregon
law also recognizes liability if the acts that led up to a harm being caused do
fall within the scope of employment. Under that principle, church officials
could be held liable if a priest's normal pastoral activity created the
conditions in which he was able to commit an act of sexual abuse.

On that basis, both the district court and the appeals court ruled that the
lawsuit against the Vatican could proceed.

The Solicitor General's brief, however, asserts that the courts are mistaken.
The broader liability standard under Oregon law, the brief says, only applies if
the court has jurisdiction in the first place – and, according to the brief, the
tort exception to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act requires that the
wrongdoing fall within the scope of employment.

"A court may not use a state liability rule to expand the grounds on which the
Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act permits the court to exercise jurisdiction over
a foreign sovereign," the brief says.

The brief asks the Supreme Court to make clear that an exception to the normal
presumption of immunity applies "only if the tort itself was committed by the
employee while acting within the scope of his office or employment."

In general, the brief argues that exceptions to sovereign immunity ought to be
narrowly construed, not expanded beyond the limits intended by Congress.
"Improperly subjecting a foreign state to suit can in some circumstances raise
foreign relations and reciprocity concerns," the brief asserts.

Observers say that Lena may file a response to the Solicitor General's brief,
arguing that its legal analysis supports stronger action from the Supreme Court
than simply sending the case back to the appeals court for reconsideration. Lena
could ask that the Supreme Court dismiss the case entirely.

If the case survives that challenge, the next step may be for the district court
in Oregon to consider requests from plaintiff's lawyers to depose top Vatican
officials and to request access to Vatican records. Observers say that the
district court judge in Oregon has seemed more inclined to support broad
requests for depositions of Vatican officials than the judge in the O'Bryan v.
Holy See case in Kentucky, another instance of the Vatican being sued for its
role in the sexual abuse crisis.


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« Reply #204 on: May 27, 2010, 12:24:14 AM »

Australia archbishop: Church culture tied to abuse

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100524/ap_on_re_as/as_australia_church_abuse
           
 AP – Pope Benedict XVI wipes his forehead as he celebrates a Pentecost Mass inside St. Peter's Basilica, at … .By ROD McGUIRK, Associated Press Writer Rod Mcguirk, Associated Press Writer – Mon May 24, 6:53 am ET







CANBERRA, Australia – The Roman Catholic Church's culture of discretion and focus on "sin and forgiveness rather than crime and punishment" were among ingrained factors that ultimately led to the child sex abuse scandal and cover-up surrounding the church today, a pre-eminent Australian bishop said Monday.

Archbishop Mark Coleridge, whose archdiocese is based in the national capital of Canberra, took the unusual step of writing an open letter attempting to explain the culture that led the church to turn a blind eye to priests accused of molesting children.

Factors include a determination to protect the church's reputation, a culture of discretion, "institutionalized immaturity" of priests fostered by seminary training, and an outlook of "sin and forgiveness rather than crime and punishment," Coleridge wrote.

Clerical celibacy was not itself a factor but it "has its perils," he wrote. "The discipline of celibacy may also have been attractive to men in whom there were paedophile tendencies which may not have been explicitly recognised by the men themselves when they entered the seminary."

Coleridge said as a young priest in the 1970s, he regarded pedophilia cases as "tragic and isolated." Coleridge's view shifted when he was called to serve at the Vatican as chaplain to Pope John Paul II during a five-year period that ended in 2002. While there, Coleridge came to regard child abuse in the church as "cultural."

"There is no one factor that makes abuse of the young by Catholic clergy in some sense cultural," Coleridge wrote. "It seems to me a rather complex combination of factors which I do not claim to understand fully."

Coleridge, a priest for 36 years, said no one could now deny the scale of the pedophilia problem in the church.

"All can see that this is a time of crisis for the Catholic Church ... there will be no quick fix to this problem, the roots of which go deep and wide."

Coleridge said Monday that Pope Benedict XVI was the right church leader for the challenge. Before he became pope in 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger held a key Vatican role in dealing with sex abuse.

"As cardinal and as pope, he has acted as vigorously as I think he can without claiming that he's got a magic wand or that the pope can just speak a word from on high and it all happens," Coleridge told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio Monday.

Canberra-based church historian Paul Collins said Coleridge's letter was unprecedented in Australia in that it openly admits the scale of the child abuse problem.

"Certainly Coleridge is the first bishop to have tackled it head on in this way in Australia," said Collins, an author and former priest.

Broken Rites Australia, a support group for victims of clergy sex abuse, said the church's failing as outlined by Coleridge was unforgivable.

"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."
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« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2010, 08:12:17 AM »


"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
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« Reply #206 on: May 27, 2010, 08:33:45 AM »


"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/
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« Reply #207 on: May 27, 2010, 08:52:50 AM »


"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor. 

As you well know as a monk, healing comes from stilling the passions not giving them free rein.  When I say the Our Father, I mean it.

In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

Mary
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« Reply #208 on: May 27, 2010, 09:04:14 AM »


"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy. 

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor. 

I do not know if he himself was subject to abuse.  But he heads an organisation which deals with hundreds of victims.  I really do not see how you can diminish and dismiss his experience.

Quote
In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

I am personally acquainted with two convicted and imprisoned clerical abusers - one a Christian Brother once revered for his work among the street kids. The other a Marist priest.  The financial remuneration in this country is small compared to what your Courts award.  It is not sufficient, in my estimation, for a person to subject themselves to a long investigation and court case.  This is not their motivation.
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« Reply #209 on: May 27, 2010, 09:19:16 AM »


"The archbishop's comments show how the Catholic Church hierarchy have covered up sex abuse and dealt very badly with the victims," group president Chris MacIsacc said. "But there is no excuse for not understanding that rape, sodomy and child sex abuse is a crime. To be more concerned for the perpetrator of crime than the victim is unforgivable."


This kind of response is the cry of the outraged on-looker.  You will not find this kind of unforgiving language used too often among the abused, in my experience.  Many young people are abused by people that they already love.  There is nothing in the third-hand public hysteria that addresses that or even begins to understand that aspect of the tragedy.  

The Church actually does grasp that in her "culture."

Perhaps we are not juridical enough for Orthodoxy?  I get that feeling sometimes.

Mary

Mary
The person whom you called an "outraged on-looker" is the President of "Broken Rites Australia" which has assisted hundreds of abuse victims.  An outraged on-looker?  Hardly.

Here is the organisation's website.

http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Nonetheless he is not typical in his angry language if he indeed is a survivor.  

I do not know if he himself was subject to abuse.  But he heads an organisation which deals with hundreds of victims.  I really do not see how you can diminish and dismiss his experience.

Quote
In your experienced pastoral estimation, Father, how much money does it take to heal the wounded heart and tortured psyche?   How many years in therapy do you suppose will fix things?  How much hating and punishing will it take to make a survivor feel better about themselves?

I am personally acquainted with two convicted and imprisoned clerical abusers - one a Christian Brother once revered for his work among the street kids. The other a Marist priest.  The financial remuneration in this country is small compared to what your Courts award.  It is not sufficient, in my estimation, for a person to subject themselves to a long investigation and court case.  This is not their motivation.

Yes.  I looked at the website and it is difficult to know if the author of the quote is a survivor or not.  My instinctive guess is that based on the message, he is not.  I have found it almost axiomatic that the observers are far more condemning in their language than the victims, which I know is not necessarily helpful to the survivors in their efforts to not only survive but to heal. 

But I am too far away from this organization to know with certitude but I don't think it is a particularly wise to speak of unforgiveness.   And I do not see the Church being "more concerned for the perpetrator" at all.  I think that is part of the hysteria that makes this issue so difficult to manage...It's like having your wife shrieking in your ear when you are lost in the city. 

To heal requires the Church, the very source of your torment.   It is an odd situation.  Abuse that happens in the home has the same difficulty.  The one place that represents order, stability, safety to a child or youth is the source of their torment and they may not be able to survive well without the love of the very person who may have abused them.

I find most of the second and third hand reactions to this situation grossly lacking in empathy.

Mary
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 09:23:27 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #210 on: May 28, 2010, 12:45:22 AM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
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« Reply #211 on: May 28, 2010, 01:04:19 AM »

I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.

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« Reply #212 on: May 28, 2010, 02:55:52 AM »

I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.



Why would someone far off be better to supervisor things on the ground?
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« Reply #213 on: May 28, 2010, 03:19:48 AM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?
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« Reply #214 on: May 28, 2010, 03:53:04 AM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?
As far as I can make out, there are conflicting views on this.
According to Catholic Answers:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/death%20penalty
 “The death penalty may be permissible when it is the only possible way to defend human lives. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent. (CCC 2267).”
So it looks to me like it would be a prudential decision. But although it does look like a prudential decision, I would have to agree that the current thinking in the RCC is that as a general rule it should not be used.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 03:56:41 AM by stanley123 » Logged
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« Reply #215 on: May 28, 2010, 04:20:01 PM »

I don't think that anyone can deny that this Pope has done more to fight this scourage of pedophilia then almost anybody else in the Church to this date.  He has unfortunately been hampered by the Vatican bureaucracy and apathetic churchmen when he was a cardinal and many of these same people are still causing trouble for him as Pope. 

This just goes to show you that the concept of independent national churches and bishops conferences governing themselves without oversight is not always such a good idea.  Many of these abuses were done within the jurisdiction of either uncaring or uninformed bishops who allowed this trouble to persist for many years.  Had there been more oversight from the Vatican then maybe things would not have progressed to the point that they did.



Why would someone far off be better to supervisor things on the ground?

Its better to have oversite from a higher source of authority then those who are "on the ground" when incidents like this happen.  Its the same thing that happened with Wall Street when federal regulations were eased up.  They tycoons went crazy and we are in the financial mess that exist today.

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« Reply #216 on: June 10, 2010, 09:08:35 PM »


Pope defends celibacy for priests in massive rally

Jun 10, 5:14 PM (ET)

By NICOLE WINFIELD

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has strongly defended celibacy for
priests as a sign of faith in an increasingly secular world during a rally
that has drawn some 15,000 priests from around the world.

Benedict didn't directly mention the clerical abuse scandal that has rocked
the Catholic Church, but he referred to some "secondary scandals" that
showed "our own insufficiencies and sins."

Benedict's comments came during an evening vigil service in St. Peter's
Square to mark the end of the Vatican's year of the priest - a year that has
been marred by revelations of hundreds of new cases of clerical abuse,
cover-up and Vatican inaction to stop it.

Benedict responded to preselected questions from five priests; none asked
for his thoughts about the scandal.
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« Reply #217 on: June 11, 2010, 12:12:29 PM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?

No. We just think that it is not necessary at this time in history.
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« Reply #218 on: June 11, 2010, 05:02:03 PM »

I came across something interesting on this topic:
Quote
Aren't we disgusted with the shocking number of high-profile cases of priests engaged in pedophilia, homosexual activity, and adultery? Some excuse this behavior with the platitudes "a sin is a sin" and "we are all sinners." Uh, excuse me?

Persons who say "a sin is a sin" don't live in the real world. ... Priests who are pedophiles, homosexual predators, and adulterers need to be defrocked -- not only to send a message but to protect the Church and her members. Some of them need jail time too.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles7/MetrakosSexualSin.php
In general, this is a good article and I agree with mostly all of it, except that it seems to be too lenient on the punishment. I mean, why wouldn't  the death penalty be justified for those who are going around raping children? They are destroying the lives of young children. Also, with the death penalty, you would send a clear and unambiguous message that this type of activity is not going to be tolerated.
But then you're assuming that the death penalty is itself a good thing.  Doesn't Catholic moral teaching condemn the death penalty?

No. We just think that it is not necessary at this time in history.

This matter is open for debate among Catholics and nothing has been settled absolutely.  One can still be an RC in good standing and support the death penalty.
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« Reply #219 on: June 11, 2010, 08:56:26 PM »

If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor.

I am confused. Who are supposed to have their sexual ideas stop when they are over 15 and why? Otherwise we need to confess this?
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« Reply #220 on: June 11, 2010, 09:55:34 PM »

This matter is open for debate among Catholics and nothing has been settled absolutely.  One can still be an RC in good standing and support the death penalty.
That's right.
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« Reply #221 on: June 11, 2010, 10:00:26 PM »

If you have sexual fantasies about anything other than a woman, get help. If these ideations persist, choose a different career.

If your heterosexual fantasies occupy as much of your time as they did when you were 15, see an experienced confessor.

I am confused. Who are supposed to have their sexual ideas stop when they are over 15 and why? Otherwise we need to confess this?

I think he's saying that adults should have learned/developed methods of controlling their desire, versus a 15 year old who has only begun to experience them in their recent past and, thus, has a more difficult time with self-control.  Sexual temptation will continue until you reach a ripe old age, but that doesn't mean you should lose the battle to the passions the entire time - the benefit of age, wisdom, and experience should allow you to channel those urges into more useful and spiritually beneficial activities.
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« Reply #222 on: June 13, 2010, 06:51:10 AM »


Pope defends celibacy for priests in massive rally

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI has strongly defended celibacy for
priests as a sign of faith in an increasingly secular world during a rally
that has drawn some 15,000 priests from around the world.

Benedict didn't directly mention the clerical abuse scandal that has rocked
the Catholic Church, but he referred to some "secondary scandals" that
showed "our own insufficiencies and sins."

Interesting. What other scandals are there?
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« Reply #223 on: June 13, 2010, 05:16:42 PM »


The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?
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Irish Hermit
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2010, 09:32:34 PM »


The Europe you know is changing.

You have probably seen the landmarks.  But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world.  It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration.

All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen.  And if they are, they might regret it.  This goes for the police as well.  It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children.  Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead.  With mosques on many street corners.  The shops have signs you and I cannot read.  You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity.  These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics.  These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe .  These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

Well, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Take a look at the abortion rates in Orthodox countries such as Russia, for example. The last time I checked, the abortion rates in the Orthodox country of Russia were the highest in the world today? And take a look at the Catholics and other Christians who are using artificial birth control and abortion to limit the size of their families.  In our neighborhood there is a Muslim family with six children and another one is on the way. Now in present day Orthodox Russia, or in Western Europe what percentage of the Christian families have six children? Do Muslims love children more than Christians? As long as Christians restrict the size of their families to small numbers and Muslims have families with six or more children, what do you expect?

All that you say is correct, my dear brother... and very unfortunately so.  Which is why the ongoing enforced celibacy of the Roman Catholic clergy is such a sad and negative thing.  The discipline should now be changed so that the Catholic priests may marry and become to the Church and to the world living examples of the beauty and holiness of Christian marriage.  The priests should also set an example in their families by rejoicing in all the children God sends them, whether it be 4 or 6 or 10 children.   Take away the sad and dreary rule which forbids priests to marry.  Instead, let them become shining examples of married life and the joy of children in the communities they serve.  Let this become a new and vibrant charisma and witness of Catholic priests in an age when the holiness of marriage is under heavy attack.
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