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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox vs. Eastern Catholic  (Read 27753 times) Average Rating: 0
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Wyatt
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« Reply #360 on: January 17, 2011, 12:13:08 AM »

You and everyone who has ever read anything he has ever posted.
I don't know. I think the fact he is allowed to continue on his tirades indicates that some in authority are at least tolerant of his views (and his ways of expressing them) if not outright sympathetic to them.
 Wyatt, you have been warned in the past to not comment on moderatorial decisions (or lack thereof, in this case) in the public fora.  If you find a post offensive, you know to use the Report to moderator function.  For your continued whining about the moderation of this board, you are hereby put on post moderation for 30 days.  If you find this to be in error, please PM Fr. George or FrChris to appeal.  - Schultz, Orthodox-Catholic moderator
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« Reply #361 on: January 17, 2011, 01:03:46 AM »

Dearest Papist and azurestone,

Do you ever stop and think that perhaps your words might be an obstacle in someone's decisions concerning their faith?

Papist, how would it make you feel if your verbal assaults on Apotheoun led to him leaving the Catholic Church? Horrible I hope.

Azurestone, the comments you make about Apotheoun's decision to remain Melkite Catholic are uncharitable. Stop badgering him.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 01:05:50 AM by LakaYaRabb » Logged
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« Reply #362 on: January 17, 2011, 01:30:20 AM »


Papist, how would it make you feel if your verbal assaults on Apotheoun led to him leaving the Catholic Church? Horrible I hope.

Azurestone, the comments you make about Apotheoun's decision to remain Melkite Catholic are uncharitable. Stop badgering him.

It really puzzles me that the most loquacious Eastern Catholics on the forum Mary and Father Lance, never say anything about the messages and views of their brother Eastern Catholic Apotheoun.  Why? Surely if Apotheoun were way out of bounds with Eastern Catholic theology they would be correcting him?
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« Reply #363 on: January 17, 2011, 01:36:23 AM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.
because obviously persuasive argument and moral example isn't enough....
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« Reply #364 on: January 17, 2011, 01:36:41 AM »

Surely if Apotheoun were way out of bounds with Eastern Catholic theology they would be correcting him?

Why?
Is what is said on this forum really that important?
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« Reply #365 on: January 17, 2011, 01:49:12 AM »

Surely if Apotheoun were way out of bounds with Eastern Catholic theology they would be correcting him?

Why?
Is what is said on this forum really that important?


Seems to be.  The Orthodox got bent out of shape when Mary was saying that they permit abortion.
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« Reply #366 on: January 17, 2011, 01:54:13 AM »

Surely if Apotheoun were way out of bounds with Eastern Catholic theology they would be correcting him?

Why?
Is what is said on this forum really that important?


Seems to be.  The Orthodox got bent out of shape when Mary was saying that they permit abortion.
You mean the Orthodox on this forum?
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« Reply #367 on: January 17, 2011, 02:01:21 AM »

Surely if Apotheoun were way out of bounds with Eastern Catholic theology they would be correcting him?

Why?
Is what is said on this forum really that important?


Seems to be.  The Orthodox got bent out of shape when Mary was saying that they permit abortion.
You mean the Orthodox on this forum?
I am not aware of any reactions from Orthodox not on this forum.
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« Reply #368 on: January 17, 2011, 02:03:16 AM »

I am not aware of any reactions from Orthodox not on this forum.
OK
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« Reply #369 on: January 17, 2011, 01:46:18 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
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« Reply #370 on: January 17, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »

I don't know. I think the fact he is allowed to continue on his tirades indicates that some in authority are at least tolerant of his views (and his ways of expressing them) if not outright sympathetic to them.

You seem to have a difficult time with the concept that, *gasp!*, this is a discussion forum, where we allow people to have discussion.  In true "discussion forum" form, if he says something untrue then you should dispute the point, provide evidence if necessary, etc.  If he violates the forum rules, then click the "Report to moderator" link in the lower-right corner of the offending post, and he will be warned.  If not, then he, you, and anyone else is free to post what you think.
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« Reply #371 on: January 17, 2011, 04:01:46 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.

What is this primatial power?

No primate of any Orthodox Church may exercise more than one vote at all meetings of the Synod.

No primate may enter the diocese of another bishop without obtaining that bishop's blessing.

No primate may issue Church-wide directives without obtaining the approval of the Synod of bishops.  But of course he may issue decrees for his own diocese.

No primate may elevate or defrock or discipline another bishop.  That belongs to the Synod of bishops.

Primates may be disciplined by the Synod of bishops.

If you look at Church-wide decrees, they will state "The Patriarch and the Synod of Bishops" or words to that effect.

Priimatial authority resides in the Synod.


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ialmisry
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« Reply #372 on: January 17, 2011, 04:17:06 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?
And as I said before, one of the things Orthodoxy really needs to admit to herself is that some bishops are more equal than others, and perhaps rightly so for the good health of the body.

Let's make this easy: explain to us the differences between the 123 or so supreme pontiffs of the Vatican. Enlighten us.
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« Reply #373 on: January 17, 2011, 04:18:24 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.

What is this primatial power?

No primate of any Orthodox Church may exercise more than one vote at all meetings of the Synod.

No primate may enter the diocese of another bishop without obtaining that bishop's blessing.

No primate may issue Church-wide directives without obtaining the approval of the Synod of bishops.  But of course he may issue decrees for his own diocese.

No primate may elevate or defrock or discipline another bishop.  That belongs to the Synod of bishops.

Primates may be disciplined by the Synod of bishops.

If you look at Church-wide decrees, they will state "The Patriarch and the Synod of Bishops" or words to that effect.

Priimatial authority resides in the Synod.
as a recent primate of Jerusalem found out, much to his sorrow.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #374 on: January 17, 2011, 06:29:39 PM »

You seem to have a difficult time with the concept that, *gasp!*, this is a discussion forum, where we allow people to have discussion.  In true "discussion forum" form, if he says something untrue then you should dispute the point, provide evidence if necessary, etc.  If he violates the forum rules, then click the "Report to moderator" link in the lower-right corner of the offending post, and he will be warned.  If not, then he, you, and anyone else is free to post what you think.
It's not what he says so much as how he says it.
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« Reply #375 on: January 17, 2011, 06:31:35 PM »

You seem to have a difficult time with the concept that, *gasp!*, this is a discussion forum, where we allow people to have discussion.  In true "discussion forum" form, if he says something untrue then you should dispute the point, provide evidence if necessary, etc.  If he violates the forum rules, then click the "Report to moderator" link in the lower-right corner of the offending post, and he will be warned.  If not, then he, you, and anyone else is free to post what you think.
It's not what he says so much as how he says it.

I've been critical of his tone in other places here; but as long as he's not breaking rules, we have no reason to warn him, just as we have no reason to warn you as long as you're not breaking rules.
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« Reply #376 on: January 17, 2011, 10:39:15 PM »

Then all Patriarchs are very very very expensive tree toppers.



Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.

What is this primatial power?

No primate of any Orthodox Church may exercise more than one vote at all meetings of the Synod.

No primate may enter the diocese of another bishop without obtaining that bishop's blessing.

No primate may issue Church-wide directives without obtaining the approval of the Synod of bishops.  But of course he may issue decrees for his own diocese.

No primate may elevate or defrock or discipline another bishop.  That belongs to the Synod of bishops.

Primates may be disciplined by the Synod of bishops.

If you look at Church-wide decrees, they will state "The Patriarch and the Synod of Bishops" or words to that effect.

Priimatial authority resides in the Synod.



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elijahmaria
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« Reply #377 on: January 17, 2011, 10:39:15 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.

What is this primatial power?

No primate of any Orthodox Church may exercise more than one vote at all meetings of the Synod.

No primate may enter the diocese of another bishop without obtaining that bishop's blessing.

No primate may issue Church-wide directives without obtaining the approval of the Synod of bishops.  But of course he may issue decrees for his own diocese.

No primate may elevate or defrock or discipline another bishop.  That belongs to the Synod of bishops.

Primates may be disciplined by the Synod of bishops.

If you look at Church-wide decrees, they will state "The Patriarch and the Synod of Bishops" or words to that effect.

Priimatial authority resides in the Synod.
as a recent primate of Jerusalem found out, much to his sorrow.

He's the one who is imprisoned, right?
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« Reply #378 on: January 17, 2011, 10:39:15 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.
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« Reply #379 on: January 20, 2011, 02:06:01 PM »

Before:


After:


At least tell the whole story. Half-truths are no better than lies.
http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html

He did, or did you miss this very important comment from Isa which is incredibly appropriate given your response:

Quote
It never ceases to amuse me how so many of the Vatican's followers, who otherwise claim that Christ founded their ecclesiastical community, act as if the Vatican started in 1962 when it comes to this issue.
It seems some of the Vatican's followers hanker after the good ol' days:
Two possibilities.
1. He did in fact invoke his Papal teaching authority, BUT, did he invoke Papal Infallibility? Not certain that he did.

2. Heresey can be an even graver crime than murder because it can cause the eternal death of the soul. So, would it be wrong to put to death an arch-heretic like Martin Luther or Arius, if we are living in a Christian country? I am not certain that such would be wrong. It might be necessary to protect the faithful from spiritual death. I am not saying that I am certain on this point, just thinking outloud.
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« Reply #380 on: January 20, 2011, 02:29:50 PM »

Before:


After:


At least tell the whole story. Half-truths are no better than lies.
http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html

He did, or did you miss this very important comment from Isa which is incredibly appropriate given your response:

Quote
It never ceases to amuse me how so many of the Vatican's followers, who otherwise claim that Christ founded their ecclesiastical community, act as if the Vatican started in 1962 when it comes to this issue.
It seems some of the Vatican's followers hanker after the good ol' days:
Two possibilities.
1. He did in fact invoke his Papal teaching authority, BUT, did he invoke Papal Infallibility? Not certain that he did.

2. Heresey can be an even graver crime than murder because it can cause the eternal death of the soul. So, would it be wrong to put to death an arch-heretic like Martin Luther or Arius, if we are living in a Christian country? I am not certain that such would be wrong. It might be necessary to protect the faithful from spiritual death. I am not saying that I am certain on this point, just thinking outloud.

What does this have to do with this thread?
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« Reply #381 on: January 20, 2011, 03:26:12 PM »

Before:


After:


At least tell the whole story. Half-truths are no better than lies.
http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html

He did, or did you miss this very important comment from Isa which is incredibly appropriate given your response:

Quote
It never ceases to amuse me how so many of the Vatican's followers, who otherwise claim that Christ founded their ecclesiastical community, act as if the Vatican started in 1962 when it comes to this issue.
It seems some of the Vatican's followers hanker after the good ol' days:
Two possibilities.
1. He did in fact invoke his Papal teaching authority, BUT, did he invoke Papal Infallibility? Not certain that he did.

2. Heresey can be an even graver crime than murder because it can cause the eternal death of the soul. So, would it be wrong to put to death an arch-heretic like Martin Luther or Arius, if we are living in a Christian country? I am not certain that such would be wrong. It might be necessary to protect the faithful from spiritual death. I am not saying that I am certain on this point, just thinking outloud.

What does this have to do with this thread?
Nothing. Isa is just being Isa.
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« Reply #382 on: January 20, 2011, 06:04:45 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

Power, Power, Power!  Notice how it always comes down to power for Catholics.

Yes, we are discussing it at ALL levels (thanks to the insistence of Met Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper) and as you know the Orthodox Russians are vehemently denying it exists at the global level.  It exists only at the level for which the canons were formulated - regional, provincial and national.  Nothing higher. 

Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.
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« Reply #383 on: January 20, 2011, 06:19:43 PM »


Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.

No worse that it is today in Orthodoxy, I expect.  From real life experience I think if mutually established among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs, it might just work.  In fact I think that is the goal in the discussions...don't you?  I mean I don't hear any of the Patriarchs telling Benedetto the Wise that he "needs to come home"....Now THAT would be news!!
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« Reply #384 on: January 20, 2011, 07:08:06 PM »


Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.

No worse that it is today in Orthodoxy, I expect.  From real life experience I think if mutually established among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs, it might just work.

May we enquire what "real life experience"?  Have there been occasions you have experienced when the Orthodox have changed their age old praxis or doctrine in agreement with Roman Catholic bishops?  Could you be specific?

Quote
I mean I don't hear any of the Patriarchs telling Benedetto the Wise that he "needs to come home"....Now THAT would be news!!

To date the Patriarchs have taken little interest in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and, as we know it has been left in the hands of a few enthusiasts.  As we also know that has changed dramatically after Ravenna 2007 when the Patriarchs realised almost overnight, thanks to the actions of the Greek Church, that a theology and an ecclesiology was being developed by Cardinal Kasper and Met Zizioulas (through the medium of the bilateral dialogue) which was foreign to Orthodoxy.   As we also know the result was that the participants at the bilateral dialogue are now forbidden from the Orthodox side from signing and issuing statements which have not been examined and approved by the synods of the Local Churches. Hence no statements from Crete 2008 nor Vienna 2010. 

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« Reply #385 on: January 20, 2011, 08:09:51 PM »


Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.

No worse that it is today in Orthodoxy, I expect.  From real life experience I think if mutually established among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs, it might just work.

May we enquire what "real life experience"?  Have there been occasions you have experienced when the Orthodox have changed their age old praxis or doctrine in agreement with Roman Catholic bishops?  Could you be specific?

Quote
I mean I don't hear any of the Patriarchs telling Benedetto the Wise that he "needs to come home"....Now THAT would be news!!

To date the Patriarchs have taken little interest in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and, as we know it has been left in the hands of a few enthusiasts.  As we also know that has changed dramatically after Ravenna 2007 when the Patriarchs realised almost overnight, thanks to the actions of the Greek Church, that a theology and an ecclesiology was being developed by Cardinal Kasper and Met Zizioulas (through the medium of the bilateral dialogue) which was foreign to Orthodoxy.   As we also know the result was that the participants at the bilateral dialogue are now forbidden from the Orthodox side from signing and issuing statements which have not been examined and approved by the synods of the Local Churches. Hence no statements from Crete 2008 nor Vienna 2010. 

Oh...well you obviously have not contributed greatly to my real life experience  Smiley
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« Reply #386 on: January 20, 2011, 08:19:45 PM »

Before:


After:


At least tell the whole story. Half-truths are no better than lies.
http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html

He did, or did you miss this very important comment from Isa which is incredibly appropriate given your response:

Quote
It never ceases to amuse me how so many of the Vatican's followers, who otherwise claim that Christ founded their ecclesiastical community, act as if the Vatican started in 1962 when it comes to this issue.
It seems some of the Vatican's followers hanker after the good ol' days:
Two possibilities.
1. He did in fact invoke his Papal teaching authority, BUT, did he invoke Papal Infallibility? Not certain that he did.

2. Heresey can be an even graver crime than murder because it can cause the eternal death of the soul. So, would it be wrong to put to death an arch-heretic like Martin Luther or Arius, if we are living in a Christian country? I am not certain that such would be wrong. It might be necessary to protect the faithful from spiritual death. I am not saying that I am certain on this point, just thinking outloud.

What does this have to do with this thread?
Nothing. Isa is just being Isa.
And Ultramontanists being Ultramontanists, picking up that sword that St. Peter put down.
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« Reply #387 on: January 20, 2011, 08:21:28 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.

What is this primatial power?

No primate of any Orthodox Church may exercise more than one vote at all meetings of the Synod.

No primate may enter the diocese of another bishop without obtaining that bishop's blessing.

No primate may issue Church-wide directives without obtaining the approval of the Synod of bishops.  But of course he may issue decrees for his own diocese.

No primate may elevate or defrock or discipline another bishop.  That belongs to the Synod of bishops.

Primates may be disciplined by the Synod of bishops.

If you look at Church-wide decrees, they will state "The Patriarch and the Synod of Bishops" or words to that effect.

Priimatial authority resides in the Synod.
as a recent primate of Jerusalem found out, much to his sorrow.

He's the one who is imprisoned, right?
Yes.
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« Reply #388 on: January 20, 2011, 08:24:53 PM »


Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.

No worse that it is today in Orthodoxy, I expect.  From real life experience I think if mutually established among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs, it might just work.

May we enquire what "real life experience"?  Have there been occasions you have experienced when the Orthodox have changed their age old praxis or doctrine in agreement with Roman Catholic bishops?  Could you be specific?

Quote
I mean I don't hear any of the Patriarchs telling Benedetto the Wise that he "needs to come home"....Now THAT would be news!!

To date the Patriarchs have taken little interest in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and, as we know it has been left in the hands of a few enthusiasts.  As we also know that has changed dramatically after Ravenna 2007 when the Patriarchs realised almost overnight, thanks to the actions of the Greek Church, that a theology and an ecclesiology was being developed by Cardinal Kasper and Met Zizioulas (through the medium of the bilateral dialogue) which was foreign to Orthodoxy.   As we also know the result was that the participants at the bilateral dialogue are now forbidden from the Orthodox side from signing and issuing statements which have not been examined and approved by the synods of the Local Churches. Hence no statements from Crete 2008 nor Vienna 2010. 

Oh...well you obviously have not contributed greatly to my real life experience  Smiley

You are such a disappointment because you never reply to questions.

You are also a disappointment because you think not like an Eastern Catholic but a Roman Catholic.  Eastern Catholics would know that the importance of "mutually established [change] among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs" must be counterbalanced by the more important question of whether the pleroma of the Church will be in agreement.

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« Reply #389 on: January 20, 2011, 08:26:35 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

St. Cyprian invented/coined the pharses "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole," and episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus "The episcopate is one, diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops." He did not, however, innovate in the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which is why we hold to his words.

With Apostolic Canon 34, his is all the Orthodox have to say on the meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.
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« Reply #390 on: January 20, 2011, 08:50:52 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

St. Cyprian invented/coined the pharses "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole," and episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus "The episcopate is one, diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops." He did not, however, innovate in the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which is why we hold to his words.

With Apostolic Canon 34, his is all the Orthodox have to say on the meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?
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« Reply #391 on: January 20, 2011, 08:57:31 PM »


When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?

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« Reply #392 on: January 20, 2011, 09:10:22 PM »

They serve no more purpose than the pope and are not needed at all.   Get rid of them and you might force the Catholic Church to think again....


When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?


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« Reply #393 on: January 20, 2011, 09:54:31 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

St. Cyprian invented/coined the pharses "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole," and episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus "The episcopate is one, diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops." He did not, however, innovate in the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which is why we hold to his words.

With Apostolic Canon 34, his is all the Orthodox have to say on the meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?
Ah, displaying the usual lack of discernment I see.

We never have a problem dumping heretical primates.  You make yours infallible.
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« Reply #394 on: January 20, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is. 

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

St. Cyprian invented/coined the pharses "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole," and episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus "The episcopate is one, diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops." He did not, however, innovate in the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which is why we hold to his words.

With Apostolic Canon 34, his is all the Orthodox have to say on the meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?
Ah, displaying the usual lack of discernment I see.

We never have a problem dumping heretical primates.  You make yours infallible.

Morse Code for Help
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« Reply #395 on: January 20, 2011, 10:05:36 PM »


Like it or not but Orthodoxy has no mechanism capable of adding a global level.  It could call an Ecumenical Council to consider the matter but after 2000 years of tradition and canon law it is highly unlikely that the Council would innovate about this and add a global level and formulate canons for its regulation.   Apart from the horror of a break with tradition the Church would be facing an even greater horror - widespread schism from the faithful who would refuse to accept the creation of a global primacy.

No worse that it is today in Orthodoxy, I expect.  From real life experience I think if mutually established among Orthodox and Catholic hierarchs, it might just work.

May we enquire what "real life experience"?  Have there been occasions you have experienced when the Orthodox have changed their age old praxis or doctrine in agreement with Roman Catholic bishops?  Could you be specific?

Quote
I mean I don't hear any of the Patriarchs telling Benedetto the Wise that he "needs to come home"....Now THAT would be news!!

To date the Patriarchs have taken little interest in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and, as we know it has been left in the hands of a few enthusiasts.  As we also know that has changed dramatically after Ravenna 2007 when the Patriarchs realised almost overnight, thanks to the actions of the Greek Church, that a theology and an ecclesiology was being developed by Cardinal Kasper and Met Zizioulas (through the medium of the bilateral dialogue) which was foreign to Orthodoxy.   As we also know the result was that the participants at the bilateral dialogue are now forbidden from the Orthodox side from signing and issuing statements which have not been examined and approved by the synods of the Local Churches. Hence no statements from Crete 2008 nor Vienna 2010. 

Oh...well you obviously have not contributed greatly to my real life experience  Smiley

You are such a disappointment because you never reply to questions.
Well, if you don't have the answers....
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #396 on: January 20, 2011, 10:06:31 PM »


Quote

Supremacy is no more than FIRST among Equals where FIRST actually means something more than a platitude.


Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel...

Not at all.   It is what it is.  

There is no primatial power without the means to access and utilize that power.

Just another example of the Catholic obsession with power and authority.   It pervades everything that a Catholic apologist writes.

There is primatial power in Orthodoxy and I've been around too long for you to tell me that it doesn't exist....The comparison is one of power and its exercise...but both Churches have and use their fair share and BOTH Churches are a clear hierarchy.

So you are another example of avoiding the elephant in the Orthodox living room.
Mind explaining this parade of elephants stampeding through the Vatican's living room?

Not to those who mock and deride...here that means you and Father A. from NZ

But it is what your bishops and their representatives are speaking about with my bishops and their representatives.

The meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

St. Cyprian invented/coined the pharses "The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole," and episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus "The episcopate is one, diffused through a harmonious multitude of many bishops." He did not, however, innovate in the Orthodox ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, which is why we hold to his words.

With Apostolic Canon 34, his is all the Orthodox have to say on the meaning of primatial power...at ALL levels.

 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?
Ah, displaying the usual lack of discernment I see.

We never have a problem dumping heretical primates.  You make yours infallible.

Morse Code for Help
Ah, very cryptic. Btw, did you answer:
And as I said before, one of the things Orthodoxy really needs to admit to herself is that some bishops are more equal than others, and perhaps rightly so for the good health of the body.

Let's make this easy: explain to us the differences between the 123 or so supreme pontiffs of the Vatican. Enlighten us.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:07:14 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #397 on: January 20, 2011, 10:14:45 PM »



 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?

I think this is an excellent answer. 

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« Reply #398 on: January 20, 2011, 10:43:10 PM »



 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?

I think this is an excellent answer.  

Autocentric as ever.  

So Your supreme pontiffs John Paul II and Benedict XVI are just the same as Pope Honrius I, Pope Stephen (VI) VII (LOL, notice the confusion on numbers) and Pope Alexander VI, eh?  Nice to know.

It's rather odd than anyone claiming to be "Eastern Catholic" be perplexed on this matter: except for the dependence on the pallium, the sui juris ecclesiology even in the Vatican scheme of things reflects Orthodox ecclesiology on primates rather well.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 10:52:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #399 on: January 20, 2011, 10:56:52 PM »



 laugh laugh laugh

When you dump the Pretty Patriarchs then we'll dump the Prowling Pope...howzzat?

I think this is an excellent answer.  

Autocentric as ever.  

So Your supreme pontiffs John Paul II and Benedict XVI are just the same as Pope Honrius I, Pope Stephen (VI) VII (LOL, notice the confusion on numbers) and Pope Alexander VI, eh?  Nice to know.

It's rather odd than anyone claiming to be "Eastern Catholic" be perplexed on this matter: except for the dependence on the pallium, the sui juris ecclesiology even in the Vatican scheme of things reflects Orthodox ecclesiology on primates rather well.

I am not sure how I manage in Confession without you.

Have fun.
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« Reply #400 on: January 21, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »


And with that final salvo, this thread is closed.  Please note, in the future, when the same three or four posters start (you know who you are) to resume their personal bickering and begin to retread the same, tired ground that they have chosen as their battlefield, I will close the thread as it is no longer a discussion but merely a forum for a small group of posters to show off and snipe at one another in a most despicable manner that should be beneath them as adults and, most especially, as Christians.

Do not bother PMing me about it, either, please.  I don't want to hear it anymore from any of you. 

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