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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox vs. Eastern Catholic  (Read 27743 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: December 28, 2010, 08:51:36 PM »

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that, since I - as an Eastern Catholic - do not accept the ecumenicity of the Western synods, it follows that I do not feel compelled to accept the formulations proposed at those local synods as somehow binding upon everyone.

Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.
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« Reply #136 on: December 28, 2010, 08:52:47 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
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« Reply #137 on: December 28, 2010, 08:55:58 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.
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« Reply #138 on: December 28, 2010, 08:57:51 PM »

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that, since I - as an Eastern Catholic - do not accept the ecumenicity of the Western synods, it follows that I do not feel compelled to accept the formulations proposed at those local synods as somehow binding upon everyone.

Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.

Titulus III, Canon 45, section 3 of the Canons of the Eastern Church says:
 § 3. Contra sententiam vel decretum Romani Pontificis non datur appellatio neque recursus.

So I guess we're clear what's expected of Eastern-Rite Catholics, too.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 09:14:23 PM by Hermogenes » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: December 28, 2010, 09:00:18 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

That's good news.
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« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2010, 09:02:18 PM »

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that, since I - as an Eastern Catholic - do not accept the ecumenicity of the Western synods, it follows that I do not feel compelled to accept the formulations proposed at those local synods as somehow binding upon everyone.
Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.
I don't see my position as deceitful at all, I just simply do not take the exaggerated views of the Roman Church on some of its medieval theories as binding upon everyone.

The Roman Catholic delegates to the Joint International Commission for Dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Church, all of whom were appointed by the pope, seemed to have no problem saying that there have been no ecumenical councils since the schism of the 11th century.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 09:03:10 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

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« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2010, 09:03:53 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

That's good news.
Yes, it is, and if my memory serves me, an OCA priest from Marin County concelebrated the liturgy at the ROCOR cathedral that same morning.
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« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2010, 09:13:18 PM »

The 'created light of glory' Aquinas refers to there is the lumen gloriae. It does not inhere in God, but in the mind of man. Or at least, in God's action in the mind of man rather than in God simply. Thomas:

Quote
Nothing can receive a higher form unless it be disposed thereto by raising and enlarging its capacity, because every act is limited to its proper power. Now the divine essence is a higher form than any created intellect. Therefore, in order that the divine essence become the intelligible species for a created intellect, which is required in order that the divine substance be seen, the created intellect must be raised and enlatged for that purpose by some supernatural disposition. (16)

When any created intellect sees the essence of God, the essence of God itself becomes the intelligible form of the intellect. Hence it is necessary ... that the power of understanding should be aided by divine grace. Now this increase of the intellectual powers is called the illumination of the intellect

On the issue of the Papal Infallibility, it is not held by the Catholic Church to be theoria which you are free to agree or not agree to. The First Council of the Vatican, in explicit language, places anathema on anyone who fails to assent to it.

Quote
Either way, his personal views on it aren't the views of the Catholic Church.

I'm sorry, but his personal views are exactly the views of the Catholic church if he chooses to make them so. I'm familiar with some of the nuances of the doctrine of infallibility, and any time the pope chooses to speak "from the magisterium," he is to be regarded as speaking "infallibly." That's the deal, like it or not.

We Orthodox don't like it, needless to say.

That statement wasn't made with reassuring any Orthodox in mind, it was a statement made by a Catholic about the Pope, made to another Catholic, self-identified. Anyways, no, the Pope can only define what has been taught by the magisterium. He has no authority to codify anything that doesn't fall under the teachings of the magisterium.
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« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2010, 09:15:42 PM »

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that, since I - as an Eastern Catholic - do not accept the ecumenicity of the Western synods, it follows that I do not feel compelled to accept the formulations proposed at those local synods as somehow binding upon everyone.
Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.
I don't see my position as deceitful at all, I just simply do not take the exaggerated views of the Roman Church on some of its medieval theories as binding upon everyone.

Then you should not be in communion with those who do see these views as binding upon everyone. If Papal supremacy and papal infallibility are not true, then they are necessarily heresies since they were proclaimed as dogmas, with anathemas on anyone with the temerity to reject them. When a dogma is proclaimed, there can be no middle ground.

Quote
The Roman Catholic delegates to the Joint International Commission for Dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Church, all of whom were appointed by the pope, seemed to have no problem saying that there have been no ecumenical councils since the schism of the 11th century.

Does the Joint International Commission have higher authority than a self-proclaimed ecumenical council and the dogmas it asserted for the whole church? You're looking for loopholes and that is not indicative of honesty.  
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« Reply #144 on: December 28, 2010, 09:19:15 PM »

On the issue of the Papal Infallibility, it is not held by the Latin Catholic Church to be theoria which you are free to agree or not agree to. The First Council of the Vatican, in explicit language, places anathema on anyone who fails to assent to it.
I took the liberty of adding the word that was missing from your comment.  Cheesy
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« Reply #145 on: December 28, 2010, 09:21:06 PM »

Does the Joint International Commission have higher authority than a self-proclaimed ecumenical council and the dogmas it asserted for the whole church? You're looking for loopholes and that is not indicative of honesty.  
I do not think that I mentioned anything in particular about the authority of the commission.  All I said is that the Roman Catholic representatives to the commission were all appointed by the pope.  You would think that they would not put their names to something that would cause him problems later.  Cheesy
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« Reply #146 on: December 28, 2010, 09:24:00 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

That's good news.
Yes, it is, and if my memory serves me, an OCA priest from Marin County concelebrated the liturgy at the ROCOR cathedral that same morning.

Yeah, that's where the changes are happening, at the grass roots. Our priest, the local ROCOR, GOA, and Antiochian all concelebrate, which is very inspiring. Our Theophany celebrations nearly always include multiple jurisdictions.
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« Reply #147 on: December 28, 2010, 09:25:35 PM »

The 'created light of glory' Aquinas refers to there is the lumen gloriae. It does not inhere in God, but in the mind of man. Or at least, in God's action in the mind of man rather than in God simply. Thomas:

Quote
Nothing can receive a higher form unless it be disposed thereto by raising and enlarging its capacity, because every act is limited to its proper power. Now the divine essence is a higher form than any created intellect. Therefore, in order that the divine essence become the intelligible species for a created intellect, which is required in order that the divine substance be seen, the created intellect must be raised and enlatged for that purpose by some supernatural disposition. (16)

When any created intellect sees the essence of God, the essence of God itself becomes the intelligible form of the intellect. Hence it is necessary ... that the power of understanding should be aided by divine grace. Now this increase of the intellectual powers is called the illumination of the intellect

On the issue of the Papal Infallibility, it is not held by the Catholic Church to be theoria which you are free to agree or not agree to. The First Council of the Vatican, in explicit language, places anathema on anyone who fails to assent to it.

Quote
Either way, his personal views on it aren't the views of the Catholic Church.

I'm sorry, but his personal views are exactly the views of the Catholic church if he chooses to make them so. I'm familiar with some of the nuances of the doctrine of infallibility, and any time the pope chooses to speak "from the magisterium," he is to be regarded as speaking "infallibly." That's the deal, like it or not.

We Orthodox don't like it, needless to say.

That statement wasn't made with reassuring any Orthodox in mind, it was a statement made by a Catholic about the Pope, made to another Catholic, self-identified. Anyways, no, the Pope can only define what has been taught by the magisterium. He has no authority to codify anything that doesn't fall under the teachings of the magisterium.

I don't believe this is correct, there are five specific conditions that are to be met for a statement to be held infallibly. And he can specifically refute anything previously taught by the magisterium, it's one of the provisions of the promulgation.

Anyway, this feels pretty far off whatever the beginning topic was! LOL
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« Reply #148 on: December 28, 2010, 09:29:46 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

That's good news.
Yes, it is, and if my memory serves me, an OCA priest from Marin County concelebrated the liturgy at the ROCOR cathedral that same morning.

Yeah, that's where the changes are happening, at the grass roots. Our priest, the local ROCOR, GOA, and Antiochian all concelebrate, which is very inspiring. Our Theophany celebrations nearly always include multiple jurisdictions.
I get a rather positive sense - speaking as someone on the outside - that the various Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States are moving closer together, which is a good thing.  But I do not see the distinct jurisdictions as harming the over all unity of Orthodoxy in America, at least I do not get that impression from my Orthodox friends, some of whom are in the OCA while the others are in ROCOR.
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« Reply #149 on: December 28, 2010, 09:39:41 PM »

On the issue of the Papal Infallibility, it is not held by the Latin Catholic Church to be theoria which you are free to agree or not agree to. The First Council of the Vatican, in explicit language, places anathema on anyone who fails to assent to it.
I took the liberty of adding the word that was missing from your comment.  Cheesy

You are free to believe that the First Vatican Council was a regional synod of the west if you like, but you are not free to believe that those who reject Papal infallibility are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It is a point of fact and not opinion that they are not. The Bishop of Rome and the Churches in communion with him have solemnly pronounced anathema on anyone who rejects the doctrine of Papal infallibility. Whether or not the First Vatican Council was a regional synod of the west would do nothing to change the fact that the Western Church has pronounced anathema on all those who reject Papal Infallibility, and has certainly not made any special provision for the eastern rites. Indeed, there is a story that Pope Pius IX had Patriarch Gregory II Youssef thrown to the ground by the Swiss Guard and pressed his foot against his head for Youssef's reluctance to subscribe to the doctrine. That's a very distressing story if true (and a totally inappropriate action by the Pontiff, it goes without saying) but illustrative of whether or not Rome feels the non-latin churches are allowed to contradict Papal infallibility.

Quote from: Hermogenes
I don't believe this is correct, there are five specific conditions that are to be met for a statement to be held infallibly. And he can specifically refute anything previously taught by the magisterium, it's one of the provisions of the promulgation.

Anyway, this feels pretty far off whatever the beginning topic was! LOL

The promulgation says that the dogmatic definitions of the Roman pontiff are irreformable by themselves and not by the consent of the Church, is that what you're referring to?

The Roman Church at any time, first millenium or second millenium, has never been down with other Churches contradicting its understanding of magisterium. But the authority Rome sees itself as having is of defining the teaching of the magisterium, not of introducing new magisterial teachings. Rome still governs by summoning councils, not through decree.
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« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2010, 09:42:36 PM »

On the issue of the Papal Infallibility, it is not held by the Latin Catholic Church to be theoria which you are free to agree or not agree to. The First Council of the Vatican, in explicit language, places anathema on anyone who fails to assent to it.
I took the liberty of adding the word that was missing from your comment.  Cheesy

You are free to believe that the First Vatican Council was a regional synod of the west if you like, but you are not free to believe that those who reject Papal infallibility are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Lucky for me that you are not the Melkite Patriarch.  Cheesy 

You have a right to your opinion, even if I do not accept its validity.
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« Reply #151 on: December 28, 2010, 09:45:38 PM »

The promulgation says that the dogmatic definitions of the Roman pontiff are irreformable by themselves and not by the consent of the Church, is that what you're referring to?

The Roman Church at any time, first millenium or second millenium, has never been down with other Churches contradicting its understanding of magisterium. But the authority Rome sees itself as having is of defining the teaching of the magisterium, not of introducing new magisterial teachings. Rome still governs by summoning councils, not through decree.
I know you believe that, and I do not doubt your sincerity one bit, but as a Melkite Catholic I do not accept the teaching of Vatican I as dogma; as Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby said:  ". . . Vatican I has the same designation as the Council of Lyons, a 'general' synod of the West. With this designation it is neither ecumenical nor infallible and could produce only theological opinions that can not be imposed on anyone" [Archbishop Elias Zoghby, Ecumenical Reflections].
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« Reply #152 on: December 28, 2010, 09:47:18 PM »

Does the Joint International Commission have higher authority than a self-proclaimed ecumenical council and the dogmas it asserted for the whole church? You're looking for loopholes and that is not indicative of honesty.  
I do not think that I mentioned anything in particular about the authority of the commission.  All I said is that the Roman Catholic representatives to the commission were all appointed by the pope.  You would think that they would not put their names to something that would cause him problems later.  Cheesy

So the Pope and/or his representatives are  A) confused or B) duplicitous. Doesn't improve your position. As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
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« Reply #153 on: December 28, 2010, 09:48:47 PM »

Does the Joint International Commission have higher authority than a self-proclaimed ecumenical council and the dogmas it asserted for the whole church? You're looking for loopholes and that is not indicative of honesty.  
I do not think that I mentioned anything in particular about the authority of the commission.  All I said is that the Roman Catholic representatives to the commission were all appointed by the pope.  You would think that they would not put their names to something that would cause him problems later.  Cheesy

So the Pope and/or his representatives are  A) confused or B) duplicitous. Doesn't improve your position. As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
Your guess is as good as mine, but for the time being I will take them at their word.
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« Reply #154 on: December 28, 2010, 09:51:31 PM »

As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
I am in communion with the Melkite Patriarch, who happens to be in communion with Rome.  That said, neither you nor Thomist, at least as far as I can tell, are in a position to bring about a schism between the bishop of Rome and the Melkite Catholic Patriarch.
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« Reply #155 on: December 28, 2010, 09:54:21 PM »

As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
I am in communion with the Melkite Patriarch, who happens to be in communion with Rome.  That said, neither you nor Thomist, at least as far as I can tell, are in a position to bring about a schism between the bishop of Rome and the Melkite Catholic Patriarch.

If the Melkite Patriarch is in communion with Rome, he must have the faith of Rome. So either you are lying to us when you say "I don't subscribe to Papal supremacy", or you are lying to your church when you take communion.
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« Reply #156 on: December 28, 2010, 10:00:22 PM »

As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
I am in communion with the Melkite Patriarch, who happens to be in communion with Rome.  That said, neither you nor Thomist, at least as far as I can tell, are in a position to bring about a schism between the bishop of Rome and the Melkite Catholic Patriarch.

If the Melkite Patriarch is in communion with Rome, he must have the faith of Rome. So either you are lying to us when you say "I don't subscribe to Papal supremacy", or you are lying to your church when you take communion.
I agree, and that faith is found in scripture, tradition, and the seven ecumenical councils as interpreted by the consensus of the Holy Fathers.  As far as papal supremacy is concerned, since becoming a Melkite Catholic in 2005 I have been taught that that is not a dogma of the Church and that primacy must never be confused with supremacy.  Now, the Melkite Catholic Church's own catechetical materials, along with speeches and writings of the Melkite Patriarch, are the primary source for what I have been saying.  The Melkite Patriarch has not hidden these comments, and so I must assume that Rome is aware of what he has said, and yet the bishop of Rome has not broken communion with the Melkite Catholic Patriarch or the Melkite Church.  Go figure.
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« Reply #157 on: December 28, 2010, 10:16:38 PM »

Patriarch Gregory II Youssef signed the First Vatican Council's declaration of Papal infallibility. If the Melkite Catholic Church has not formally repudiated this action since, it is doubtful that the Roman Curia is fully aware of the degree to which the Melkites have fallen away from the Catholic faith (Assuming of course that the Melkite faith is as you represent it - the evidence you have provided has been extremely sketchy. It didn't even contain any direct mention of the declaration of infallibility whatsoever). With a worldwide flock of 1.166 billion, it isn't all that hard to believe that Rome could lose track of the Melkites.
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« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2010, 10:18:33 PM »

Patriarch Gregory II Youssef signed the First Vatican Council's declaration of Papal infallibility. If the Melkite Catholic Church has not formally repudiated this action since, it is doubtful that the Roman Curia is fully aware of the degree to which the Melkites have fallen away from the Catholic faith (Assuming of course that the Melkite faith is as you represent it - the evidence you have provided has been extremely sketchy. It didn't even contain any direct mention of the declaration of infallibility whatsoever). With a worldwide flock of 1.166 billion, it isn't all that hard to believe that Rome could lose track of the Melkites.

1.166 billion
You Wish.... Grin
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« Reply #159 on: December 28, 2010, 10:18:51 PM »

As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
I am in communion with the Melkite Patriarch, who happens to be in communion with Rome.  That said, neither you nor Thomist, at least as far as I can tell, are in a position to bring about a schism between the bishop of Rome and the Melkite Catholic Patriarch.

If the Melkite Patriarch is in communion with Rome, he must have the faith of Rome. So either you are lying to us when you say "I don't subscribe to Papal supremacy", or you are lying to your church when you take communion.
I agree, and that faith is found in scripture, tradition, and the seven ecumenical councils as interpreted by the consensus of the Holy Fathers.  As far as papal supremacy is concerned, since becoming a Melkite Catholic in 2005 I have been taught that that is not a dogma of the Church and that primacy must never be confused with supremacy.  Now, the Melkite Catholic Church's own catechetical materials, along with speeches and writings of the Melkite Patriarch, are the primary source for what I have been saying.

And you are evidently happy with this deception and incoherence. All the same, some citations of these catechetical materials would be interesting.

Quote
The Melkite Patriarch has not hidden these comments, and so I must assume that Rome is aware of what he has said, and yet the bishop of Rome has not broken communion with the Melkite Catholic Patriarch or the Melkite Church.  Go figure.

Ah, yes: the basis of Rome's unity: "join us and we'll look the other way."
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« Reply #160 on: December 28, 2010, 10:21:55 PM »

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1.166 billion
You Wish.... Grin

Well, that's the number of "official" catholics in the world. Who knows what percentage of that are faithful. Though it's distressing to me that you say "you wish". I would hope the Orthodox would hope for people to be faithful Catholics rather than seculars who have fallen away from Christ in any form. That's certainly the way I feel about Orthodox who have.
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« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2010, 10:24:42 PM »

My Prayers Were Always That Islam Wipes Rome Vatican off the Face of the earth and takes its popes with it... Grin  Holy Orthodoxy will be better off without it ......All vatican did was sow pain and anguish in it's lust for power...

Quote
1.166 billion
You Wish.... Grin

Well, that's the number of "official" catholics in the world. Who knows what percentage of that are faithful. Though it's distressing to me that you say "you wish". I would hope the Orthodox would hope for people to be faithful Catholics rather than seculars who have fallen away from Christ in any form. That's certainly the way I feel about Orthodox who have.
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« Reply #162 on: December 28, 2010, 10:36:21 PM »

Ah yes the good old insane genocidal serbian contingent. Always so pleasant.
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« Reply #163 on: December 28, 2010, 11:00:16 PM »

Ah yes the good old insane genocidal serbian contingent. Always so pleasant.

Well if it is any consolation, St. Justin Popovich condemned his sort of orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #164 on: December 28, 2010, 11:03:13 PM »

Ah yes the good old insane genocidal serbian contingent. Always so pleasant.


Not as Insane, As the Vatican backed Croatian Catholic Franciscan Ustasha Genocide against the Innocent srbs, gypsies, jews,and other minorities....Hopeful while I'm still alive ill witness that Glorious day,by the Grace of God,  God willing...and Hope beyond Hope... Grin
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« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2010, 11:07:31 PM »

All you balkaners are crazy, whatever your religion.
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« Reply #166 on: December 28, 2010, 11:17:37 PM »

All you balkaners are crazy, whatever your religion.

How offensive.
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« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2010, 11:32:54 PM »

Yea that was an overstatement, I'm sorry. He did just express the desire that the Catholic Church be conquered by Muslims though.
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« Reply #168 on: December 28, 2010, 11:40:20 PM »

Yea that was an overstatement, I'm sorry. He did just express the desire that the Catholic Church be conquered by Muslims though.

No, I understand.  I disagree with Stashko on many, many, many things.  Smiley
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« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2010, 11:41:52 PM »

What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that, since I - as an Eastern Catholic - do not accept the ecumenicity of the Western synods, it follows that I do not feel compelled to accept the formulations proposed at those local synods as somehow binding upon everyone.

Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.
Indeed!
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« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2010, 11:46:42 PM »

The promulgation says that the dogmatic definitions of the Roman pontiff are irreformable by themselves and not by the consent of the Church, is that what you're referring to?

The Roman Church at any time, first millenium or second millenium, has never been down with other Churches contradicting its understanding of magisterium. But the authority Rome sees itself as having is of defining the teaching of the magisterium, not of introducing new magisterial teachings. Rome still governs by summoning councils, not through decree.
I know you believe that, and I do not doubt your sincerity one bit, but as a Melkite Catholic I do not accept the teaching of Vatican I as dogma; as Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby said:  ". . . Vatican I has the same designation as the Council of Lyons, a 'general' synod of the West. With this designation it is neither ecumenical nor infallible and could produce only theological opinions that can not be imposed on anyone" [Archbishop Elias Zoghby, Ecumenical Reflections].
Which is why you are not Catholic. You pretend to be one, but that a does not make you one. That's all.
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« Reply #171 on: December 28, 2010, 11:49:26 PM »

Thomist,
I am officially a fan of yours. LOL
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« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2010, 03:46:56 AM »

 Shocked

Why all the attacks on Apotheoun? Instead of questioning his faith, why not just answer and reply to his posts?
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« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2010, 09:42:54 AM »


Quote
I get a rather positive sense - speaking as someone on the outside - that the various Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States are moving closer together, which is a good thing.  But I do not see the distinct jurisdictions as harming the over all unity of Orthodoxy in America, at least I do not get that impression from my Orthodox friends, some of whom are in the OCA while the others are in ROCOR.

Depends on what the goal is. I'd say the current situation is neutral--we aren't harming each other, and there is cooperation at many levels. But if the goal--which many want--is of a single Orthodox church with a  single hierarchy (as was the case a hundred years ago), then we are quite a long way from that. At that time, Greeks, Antiochians, Russians, etc., were all governed in a single archdiocese. Of course, that archdiocese was under the Holy Synod, as was, in Moscow. So it wouldn't be workable under the same format now.
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« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2010, 11:57:49 AM »

Shocked

Why all the attacks on Apotheoun? Instead of questioning his faith, why not just answer and reply to his posts?
We're not attacking. We are just trying to understand why he calls himself Catholic when he rejects the Catholic faith.
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« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2010, 12:00:07 PM »

As Thomist says, you are in fact not in communion with Rome, as you do not share their faith.
I am in communion with the Melkite Patriarch, who happens to be in communion with Rome.  That said, neither you nor Thomist, at least as far as I can tell, are in a position to bring about a schism between the bishop of Rome and the Melkite Catholic Patriarch.

You are not in communion with the Melkite Patriarch because he is in communion with Rome, but you are not due to your rejection of the Catholic faith. The funny thing is that you are not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox either. You are a church unto yourself.
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« Reply #176 on: December 29, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

I am OCA and have received communion in Greek, Albanian, Carpatho-Rusyn, MP, and ROCOR parishes when traveling.  My priest has no problem with it.  I've also have received comunion in the ROCOR Cathedral in San Frnacisco.

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« Reply #177 on: December 29, 2010, 12:24:02 PM »

Shocked

Why all the attacks on Apotheoun? Instead of questioning his faith, why not just answer and reply to his posts?

It is very difficult in this kind of interrupted multi-logue to actually refute half truths and manipulated whole truths.

It is kinder, more efficient and more accurate to just keep presenting the accurate position rather than try to untangle the mess.

M.
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« Reply #178 on: December 29, 2010, 01:14:42 PM »

From the other side: do you ask for permission before receiving Communion in an OCA Parish that is not your own?

No.

Sorry but I see completely no sense in this.

I wasn't defending any of this. I was lamenting it and how far we are from any real unity.
I have a friend who is a member of the OCA and he and his wife seemed to have no trouble going to confession and receiving communion at the ROCOR cathedral in San Francisco when they visited me last year.

I am OCA and have received communion in Greek, Albanian, Carpatho-Rusyn, MP, and ROCOR parishes when traveling.  My priest has no problem with it.  I've also have received comunion in the ROCOR Cathedral in San Frnacisco.

Orthodoc

I haven't been quite so peripatetic, but I've received communion across several jurisdictional lines. But where I am unknown I always try to contact the priest and clear it ahead of time. At least where I live, it's not always a foregone conclusion.
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« Reply #179 on: December 29, 2010, 01:22:29 PM »

Here are some examples of attacks:

Quote
Since you are in communion with Rome and Rome has always considered those councils ecumenical, AND, since there is no way papal supremacy and papal infallibility can be "local" dogmas, it follows that you should either subscribe to those dogmas or break communion. Your present position is deceitful and unprincipled.

Another:

Quote
If the Melkite Patriarch is in communion with Rome, he must have the faith of Rome. So either you are lying to us when you say "I don't subscribe to Papal supremacy", or you are lying to your church when you take communion.

Here:

Quote
Which is why you are not Catholic. You pretend to be one, but that a does not make you one. That's all.

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