Author Topic: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??  (Read 1543 times)

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Offline Timos

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Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« on: March 12, 2010, 02:21:30 AM »
I read somewhere that originally the Church of Antioch used the liturgy of St. James (the earliest liturgy) until the 10th or 11th century when the Patriarch was compelled to switch rites to the Byzantine Rite. Is this true? Apparently, the St. James liturgy was done originally in Greek and then translated not long after that into Syriac for the populace who didn't speak Greek. Then in the 11th century or so, (Chalcedonian) Antioch switched to the Byzantine Rite (St. John Chrysostom) but still conducted it in Syriac until the 17th century. And then, it was done in Greek/Arabic.

If any of this is true, why doesn't the Antiochian Church go back to its original rite and traditions? It seems that the Byzantine Empire wanted unity, even unity of rites, services, etc.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 02:46:06 AM »
I read somewhere that originally the Church of Antioch used the liturgy of St. James (the earliest liturgy) until the 10th or 11th century when the Patriarch was compelled to switch rites to the Byzantine Rite. Is this true?

Yes, the Byzantine Patriarch of Antioch, Balsamon, did this, and forced it on Egypt too.

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Apparently, the St. James liturgy was done originally in Greek and then translated not long after that into Syriac for the populace who didn't speak Greek. Then in the 11th century or so, (Chalcedonian) Antioch switched to the Byzantine Rite (St. John Chrysostom) but still conducted it in Syriac until the 17th century. And then, it was done in Greek/Arabic.

No, it had been done in Arabic from the 8th century on.

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If any of this is true, why doesn't the Antiochian Church go back to its original rite and traditions?

There has been talk.


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It seems that the Byzantine Empire wanted unity, even unity of rites, services, etc.
In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 11:05:15 AM »

In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
awwwww. You know you love us.  ;D
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Timos

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 11:15:31 AM »
Don't mind my excellent primary sources here as I quote wikipedia ;)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochene_Rite

"After the Monophysite schism and the Council of Chalcedon (451), both Melchites and Jacobites continued using the same rite. But gradually the two languages became characteristic of the two sides. The Jacobites used only Syriac (their whole movement being a national revolt against the Emperor), and the Melchites, who were nearly all Greeks in the chief towns, generally used Greek."

Can it thus be said that ethnically or genetically in some small way the Antiochians are different than the Syriacs? If the Antiochians are generally derived of Greek stock (city dwellers) and the Syriacs are derived of...well Syriac stock (local population)? Today you generally can't tell the difference between Christians (and Muslims too in many cases) in the Middle East by simply looking at their faces.

" Another important aspect of his work is uncovering more information about how long the Syriac language remained in use Orthodox Christians in Syria and Lebanon– in some regions, the lectionary readings were only translated from Syriac into Arabic in the 17th century! Orthodox Antioch’s Syriac heritage has long been sadly neglected, but this is now starting to change…"

http://leitourgeia.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/notes-on-arab-orthodoxy-on-the-antioch-centre/

This is what I was referring to. But who knows if its actually true or if they were using Arabic well before this time.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 11:36:47 AM »
Don't mind my excellent primary sources here as I quote wikipedia ;)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochene_Rite

"After the Monophysite schism and the Council of Chalcedon (451), both Melchites and Jacobites continued using the same rite. But gradually the two languages became characteristic of the two sides. The Jacobites used only Syriac (their whole movement being a national revolt against the Emperor),

No, not really.  What gets forgotten now is that back then there were plenty of Greek speakers, including in Constantinople itself, who were anti-Chalcedonian (someone here has linked St. Andrew of Crete as going through an anti-Chalcedon phase), and there were Syriac supporters of Chalcedon.  Severus, for instance, wrote only in Greek as far as I know, but his writings are preserved mainly in Syriac.  The Jacobite movement wasn't a nationalist movement. It was a religious one.

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and the Melchites, who were nearly all Greeks in the chief towns, generally used Greek."

The Melchites, however, were not confined to the main towns.

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Can it thus be said that ethnically or genetically in some small way the Antiochians are different than the Syriacs? If the Antiochians are generally derived of Greek stock (city dwellers)

LOL.  A lot of them where Hellenized Semites.  Some made it to the throne in Constantinople, e.g. Leo the Isaurian (actually, Syrian), Nikephoros, etc.


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and the Syriacs are derived of...well Syriac stock (local population)? Today you generally can't tell the difference between Christians (and Muslims too in many cases) in the Middle East by simply looking at their faces.

Telling the difference between Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese is easy for me (which is good, now that I have a Korean sister in law), but telling the difference in Religion based on faces (unless they are bearded or veiled), I've not been able. And I spend a lot of time with Middle Eastern faces.

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" Another important aspect of his work is uncovering more information about how long the Syriac language remained in use Orthodox Christians in Syria and Lebanon– in some regions, the lectionary readings were only translated from Syriac into Arabic in the 17th century! Orthodox Antioch’s Syriac heritage has long been sadly neglected, but this is now starting to change…"

http://leitourgeia.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/notes-on-arab-orthodoxy-on-the-antioch-centre/

True enough.


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This is what I was referring to. But who knows if its actually true or if they were using Arabic well before this time.

We know:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22261.0.html
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 12:07:30 PM »

In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
awwwww. You know you love us.  ;D

Don't feel too bad, he doesn't like us much either.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 12:49:13 PM »

In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
awwwww. You know you love us.  ;D

Don't feel too bad, he doesn't like us much either.

Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 03:02:07 PM »
Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.

But you don't love the fact that they're under New Rome in the USA, so perhaps that's what he was referring to.

Why would you call a pox down on the Ecumenical Patriarchate? I don't like how they are trying to remain relevant by altering traditional ecclesiology either, but I would never wish them ill.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2010, 03:30:50 PM »
Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.

But you don't love the fact that they're under New Rome in the USA, so perhaps that's what he was referring to.

I don't have much issue with ACROD.

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Why would you call a pox down on the Ecumenical Patriarchate? I don't like how they are trying to remain relevant by altering traditional ecclesiology either, but I would never wish them ill.

how much has the Church suffered becasue the two Romes insist on having an ongoing p***ing match?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 03:42:10 PM »
Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.

But you don't love the fact that they're under New Rome in the USA, so perhaps that's what he was referring to.

I don't have much issue with ACROD.

Quote
Why would you call a pox down on the Ecumenical Patriarchate? I don't like how they are trying to remain relevant by altering traditional ecclesiology either, but I would never wish them ill.

how much has the Church suffered becasue the two Romes insist on having an ongoing p***ing match?
I don't think the two Romes are battling with one another. We not even members of the same Church anymore.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 04:08:58 PM »

In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
awwwww. You know you love us.  ;D

Don't feel too bad, he doesn't like us much either.

Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.

I was referring to 'us' in the sense of being under the omophorion of the EP.

Offline Timos

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 06:25:18 PM »
I wonder if a workable solution would be to conduct the Byzantine St. James liturgy as a way to keep both the Greek and Syriac elements in the Antiochian church.  I've been last fall to the Byzantine liturgy of St. James and its still very Byzantine of course but there is that Syriac element to it with the shakers (fans) and the wording of the liturgy in some places. It would be cool to introduce some Syriac too. The original Antiochian churches of course did not have iconostasis as (if I'm not mistaken) the iconostasis (not necessarily icons) was developed in Constantinople. If anyone here has ever been to old Syriac or Maronite churches there is a beautiful ancientness to it even thought they don't have the iconostasis. The prayer is focused around the altar more directly (in my opinion).

Introducing some texts/hymns that were originally written in Syriac too is great as there are many beautiful hymns from St. Isaac of Nineveh etc.

The Antiochian Archdiocese here has accepted the Western Rite parishes so I wonder how they would feel with experimenting with some parishes that have a truly 'Antiochian' flavour? :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 06:41:22 PM »

In many ways New Rome is no different from Old Rome.  A pox on both their houses.
awwwww. You know you love us.  ;D

Don't feel too bad, he doesn't like us much either.

Au contraire, I love the Carpatho-Rus/Ruthenians/Rusyns.

I was referring to 'us' in the sense of being under the omophorion of the EP.

So?  I don't hold it against the Ukrainians either.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Punch

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2010, 07:54:32 PM »

If any of this is true, why doesn't the Antiochian Church go back to its original rite and traditions? It seems that the Byzantine Empire wanted unity, even unity of rites, services, etc.

Not likely since the modern trend, at least here in the US, is to go to even shorter Liturgies.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2010, 07:56:02 PM »

If any of this is true, why doesn't the Antiochian Church go back to its original rite and traditions? It seems that the Byzantine Empire wanted unity, even unity of rites, services, etc.

Not likely since the modern trend, at least here in the US, is to go to even shorter Liturgies.

LOL. According to Tradition, that was the trend in Constantinople in St. John Chrysostom's day.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Punch

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Re: Antiochian liturgy:St.John or St. James??
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2010, 11:07:30 PM »

If any of this is true, why doesn't the Antiochian Church go back to its original rite and traditions? It seems that the Byzantine Empire wanted unity, even unity of rites, services, etc.

Not likely since the modern trend, at least here in the US, is to go to even shorter Liturgies.

LOL. According to Tradition, that was the trend in Constantinople in St. John Chrysostom's day.

Yes, I believe the Saint did what he did in response to a wee bit of whining :)
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.