OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 24, 2014, 11:51:43 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: losing Faith  (Read 3641 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« on: January 05, 2004, 03:25:37 PM »

How can you have a real and living faith except it first be in God?
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2004, 03:26:58 PM »

What do you mean?
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2004, 03:31:25 PM »

peter: I mean I cannot understand how people can say that they have had doubts in God, but no doubts in their church.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2004, 03:57:13 PM »

peter: I mean I cannot understand how people can say that they have had doubts in God, but no doubts in their church.

What exactly are you referring to, Bro Max?  A specific post or article you read?  I think we're just confused as to where this came from...
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2004, 08:38:37 PM »

schultz: It comes from private discussions and from posts in other threads.  I do not understand how some one can doubt the Lord unless they really lack a saving faith.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2004, 09:18:04 PM »

Well, I think that is probably true in your case; you are surrounded by it and dealing with others of the faith 24 hours a day.

I think it is a little harder for those live and work in the real world.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2004, 09:18:56 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2004, 09:37:26 PM »

schultz: It comes from private discussions and from posts in other threads.  I do not understand how some one can doubt the Lord unless they really lack a saving faith.

Wrestling with periodic doubt is not the same thing as "lacking faith."

Being honest about it so that others can intercede in prayer takes openness and courage.

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2004, 10:31:59 PM »

Quote
peter: I mean I cannot understand how people can say that they have had doubts in God, but no doubts in their church.

For some, faith in one's Church amounts to faith in God, because some Churches were founded by Jesus Christ.

Quote
schultz: It comes from private discussions and from posts in other threads.  I do not understand how some one can doubt the Lord unless they really lack a saving faith.

Faith doesn't save. Smiley Only God's grace saves, and God works in mysterious ways. Doesn't the Bible say, "if ye have faith as this grain of mustard seed..." The mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds, but it grows to be the greatest of trees?
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2004, 12:04:21 AM »

Every time a person falls, my child, he must arise,
and he will be saved. When someone falls and
voluntarily does not get up, this is from the demons.
Despair is a demonic weapon which has broken down
many; hope, however, has saved many from the filthy
pit of mire.

- Elder Ephraim


Never separate yourself from the Church. For nothing
is stronger than the Church. Your hope is the Church
alone; your salvation is inside the Church only, your
refuge is the Church. She is higher than the heavens,
and wider than the whole earth. She never grows old,
but is always full of vigor and vitality. Holy
Scripture (which would not even exist were it not for
the Church), when pointing to her strength and
stability, calls her an unshakable mountain.

- St. John Chrysostom
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2004, 12:32:46 AM »

Well, I think that is probably true in your case; you are surrounded by it and dealing with others of the faith 24 hours a day.

I think it is a little harder for those live and work in the real world.


I don't know what makes you think I don't live and work in the real world.  I'm not cloistered.  I deal with every day people all the time - WORSE - I deal with "Christians" every day and I find them harder on my faith than people in the world.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2004, 12:37:18 AM »

schultz: It comes from private discussions and from posts in other threads.  I do not understand how some one can doubt the Lord unless they really lack a saving faith.

Wrestling with periodic doubt is not the same thing as "lacking faith."

Being honest about it so that others can intercede in prayer takes openness and courage.



But I do not understand how some one can experience Christ in His fullness and still entertain doubts about Him.  HIM I cannot doubt.  People, institutions, myself, my calling - these I can doubt because they are all made up of PEOPLE who are are weak and sinful and prone to fail.  Christ, he cannot, he will not fail.  

He will never leave any of us or forsake any of us. WE have the assurances of His promises recorded in scriptures and the testimony of what He has done for each of us.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 12:38:19 AM by Br. Max, OFC » Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2004, 09:23:35 AM »

Quote
But I do not understand how some one can experience Christ in His fullness and still entertain doubts about Him.  

Simply put, people doubt because we're human. Entertaining doubts sounds different. Somebody can doubt willfully, and that's sinful. But I would guess that most Christians have doubted, however minor. After all, faith is hope for things unseen.

Quote
HIM I cannot doubt.

I would be wary of underestimating the weakness of my humanity.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,828


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2004, 03:48:35 PM »

But I do not understand how some one can experience Christ in His fullness and still entertain doubts about Him.  

Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee." Peter declared to him, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly, I say to you, this very night, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times."

Matthew 26.31-34
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Brendan03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2004, 04:03:56 PM »

St. Thomas comes to mind as well.
Logged

B
Byzantine Christian
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2004, 04:18:01 PM »

Also, Check out my post in "Faith", Called "How do we know". I think this topic relates to mine a little bit.

In Christ
BC
Logged
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2004, 04:28:54 PM »

I think that as a mediocre Christian who has believed all his life I have very, very rare momentary doubts only. My faith is so core that I cannot imagine what would shake it.

But that doesn't mean I am a good Christian. It means that just as I don't wrestle with doubts, so I don't have the heroic transforming faith which delights God.

I am mediocre. I 'could do better'. I am a C+ Christian instead of a B+or an A.

Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
amhalaba
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 143


St. Michael, defend us in the midst of battle.


« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2004, 06:47:26 PM »

My faith? Yikes. Depends on the moment you ask me.  

I've had moments...

of terrifying doubt, where I've wondered if this was all some kind of elaborate fantasy for weak and weird people.

of frustrated overload where I've groaned "God, just leave me ALONE for five minutes!"

of zealous love that felt like an adrenaline rush of electric child-like joy and power.

of shamed sorrow that make me tremble in the effort of trying to imagine what His love is.

Usually, I just feel myself swinging back and forth on this ridiculous little pendulum, from "give me MORE" to "no, not now, a little later"

I started doing more regular prayer throughout the day, a regular rule, to help fight the procrastination and denial. It's harder for me to do this than fasting is, and I love FOOD.

All the reading and talking, 'net searching and forum lurking is stimulating, but I end up feeling like a voyeur. Anyone else struggling to increase their prayer life? Why do we deny ourselves?
Logged

"To live is to change, and to become perfect is to change often." - John Henry Neumann
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2004, 06:57:17 PM »

When I was at evangelical Bible College but already on the pilgrim trail to Orthodoxy I spent several months in Senegal considering a vocation as an evangelical missionary. I can remember being alone in a village and sitting watching the local folk harvesting their crops, and I wished I had some of my books about prayer with me, like the philokalia.

Then I realised that I should be taking the opportunity to pray rather than read about prayer.

This is a constant temptation and struggle - reading and studying about the Christian life versus living it.

I can even have great fun creating a rule of prayer etc. But can I stick to it!! Sad

So I am happy to be a subdeacon doing deaconing sort of stuff. I might not be a very spiritual person but maybe I can do some practical things to serve those who are more godly and devout than I am.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2004, 07:07:19 PM »

I started praying more somewhere around this time last year. It was quite an adjustment, but now it's addictive. My life did not improve from praying more. In fact, it is like permenant Lent, although there are oases in the desert. Growing pains, I suppose.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2004, 07:10:16 PM by The Caffeinator » Logged
sinjinsmythe
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 737



« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2004, 05:30:15 PM »

I've lost much of my faith in God. I don't feel any desire to go to church or to talk to a priest about the despair that I feel. It is almost as if I don't care anymore.
Logged

Life is just one disappointment after another.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2004, 05:35:11 PM »

I'm sorry you feel so low. My prayers and thoughts are not worth much but I offer them anyhow.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2004, 05:49:07 PM »

Lest I dismay you with my negativity, I am very happy, and at peace with God. God bless you, Sinjin
Logged
dllwatkins
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 65


« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2004, 06:09:32 PM »

When I was going through my darkest of days as a "Protestant" and "Charismatic," nothing and nobody could help me.  I was in turmoil and depression about my faith and my spiritual/personal life.  I didn't know what the Orthodox Church was, but I was reading The Way of A Pilgrim which I had found while browsing at B. Dalton.  I worked and came home and was depressed.  I used to sit by my window and pray the Jesus prayer.  I had never seen a prayer rope, but I made my own out of a piece of cotton rope.  It was about 18 inches long and had about twelve large knots spaced far apart.  Just for those moments I would sit there and pray the Jesus prayer, things would seem to lighten a bit, like the darkness was pushing back from me.  It would always come back, but for those times I felt free.  I was not "practicing the Jesus prayer," I had no form or method, and I wasn't trying to say a certain number of prayers or meditate or anything.  All I could do mentally, spiritually, emotionally, was sit looking out the window and repeat the prayer slowly.  I am not a hesychast, you know!  But I found relief, and I sought the context of that prayer in the Orthodox Church, in the phone book.  That was five years ago.  I have been in the Church four years and I have not had the same darkness.  If I do, I know what I will do again.

Regards in Christ,
David
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 06:12:43 PM by dllwatkins » Logged
dllwatkins
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 65


« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2004, 06:15:51 PM »

I might not be a very spiritual person but maybe I can do some practical things to serve those who are more godly and devout than I am.

Peter, that's how I feel as a Reader.  Every time just before I read the Epistle I pray the Jesus prayer and ask the Lord to help me read for edification and in reverence.

Regards in Christ,
David
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2004, 10:48:15 PM »

I've lost much of my faith in God. I don't feel any desire to go to church or to talk to a priest about the despair that I feel. It is almost as if I don't care anymore.

I will pray for you, brother, but you've got to hold on and do your part.

Don't feed your doubts. Pray and ask for faith.

We believe what we want to believe.

You've got to want to, and you MUST endure to the end or you could be lost.

If you abandon the faith, death might overtake you while you are in that condition.

Hang on and don't give up. Quit focusing on trash like that quote you're using as your signature.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Byzantino
Me Ortodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 353


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2004, 11:29:32 PM »

Sinjin,

I'd probably still be feeling the way you are now if it wasn't for my medication. Have you thought of seeing a psychiatrist? Spiritual help alone will not solve your problem if you have an underlying medical condition, like myself.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2004, 11:29:53 PM by Byzantino » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2004, 09:13:54 PM »

Simply put, people doubt because we're human. Entertaining doubts sounds different. Somebody can doubt willfully, and that's sinful. But I would guess that most Christians have doubted, however minor. After all, faith is hope for things unseen.I would be wary of underestimating the weakness of my humanity.

Caffeinator: Exactly my point.  MYSELF I doubt, and doubt regularly.  Will I be able to do as He asks me; do I have the strength to walk this walk; will I manage to get through this experience without sin?  

But HIM I cannot doubt.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2004, 09:28:17 PM »

when ever I find satan trying to plague me with doubts I just remember what the Lord has done for me.  I remember how he lifted me up - how he made a new creature of me and changed my life. I remember the healing’s he has given me and the miracles He has worked in my life.  I remember those people I know who are living changed lives through His grace and His mercy.  I remember what Scripture says - that we overcome the enemy by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.  

When I LEAST want to be in church is what I know that I MOST need to be there.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 09:35:13 PM by Br. Max, OFC » Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.086 seconds with 55 queries.