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Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill's watch:  (Read 8917 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rafa999
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« on: March 09, 2010, 03:27:38 AM »

I just discovered this, look at the watch the Moscow Patriarch is wearing:









Quote
During Moscow Patriarch Kiril's prayer at the Volodymyr Hill in Kyiv a VIP.glavred photographer took a photo of the watch Kiril was wearing. It is a Breguet, costing between 28,000 and 36,000 euros, depending on the seller.

The Breguet company clients included Queen Maria-Antuanetta, Napoleon, Prince of Wales, Tsar Alexandre I, Winston Churchill.

Patriarch Kiril sported a classical model: a white-gold case, crocodile leather strap, automatic with an alarm clock. In Ukraine, Breguet watches have Natalya Korolevska, a BYUT lawmaker, Vitaly Khomutynnyk, a Regions lawmaker, Irena Kilchytska, a Kyiv mayor deputy and some others, INTV reports.

Speaking live on the Inter TV channel, Patriarch Kiril called a threat to all humanity the spread of unchecked buying frenzy typical of the West. “If the society gets on the way of uncontrollable consumption, the Earth will not withstand this,” Kiril warned.

The patriarch stressed that unchecked consumption urge is involving more and more people, ridding them of the joy of buying. Spurred by advertising and fashion, people begin to hunt for the latest models of cell phones or cars, Kiril complained.


http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/07/30/190593

http://www.rferl.org/content/The_Patriarch_And_The_30000_Euro_Watch/1789853.html

Comments on this? I have one:

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Matthew 19:21-22

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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 03:47:38 AM »

Comments on this?

It's quite porable that Patriarch Kirill got this watch from someone and not bought it himself.

Rafa999, may I ask you something? Let me use PeterTheAleut's words from another thead: So what's your agenda?  Take every opportunity you can to bash us big, bad "Byzantines"?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 03:54:54 AM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 04:08:51 AM »

I just discovered this, look at the watch the Moscow Patriarch is wearing:





Comments on this?

Rafa,  you too can have the same watch as the Patriarch for $99.

See
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22490.msg411615.html#msg411615
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 04:19:25 AM »

I
Comments on this?


Rafa,

About 15 year back our country was blessed by a visit from the Bishop of Nineveh.  Together with the local Assyrian Church of the East priest I met him at the airport.  He and I in those days did a lot of immigration work and were friends.  We proceeded to the church which they used and there was an official welcome and prayer service.

The Assyrian priest and I estimated that the Bishop had around $50,000 on his back - his suit, his shoes, and his watch.

Besides that he had a house in Paris, a house in London and one in New York.

Wow!  Is that a lifestyle!??

Who funds the opulent lifestyles of some bishops?



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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 04:44:25 AM »

Wow, look at this:

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28] However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

 Shocked

importing cigarettes to the faithful, this merits another quote:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:10
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 04:58:00 AM »

Wow, look at this:

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28] However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

 Shocked

importing cigarettes to the faithful, this merits another quote:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:10
So what's your point in digging up dirt on the hierarchs of a church outside of your own?  Is this yet another ploy in your efforts to steal sheep from our communion?
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 04:59:25 AM »

Wow, look at this

Do you really think that actually dicovered something for us?

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28] However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

Why don't you underline this part:
Quote
However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."

Rafa999, let me ask you once again: what is your agenda?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 05:00:28 AM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 05:00:01 AM »

Wow, look at this:

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28]

However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

 Shocked

importing cigarettes to the faithful, this merits another quote:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:10

These people are stirring up trouble and I suspect they know they are presenting things unfairly.

After Perestroika the Government of Russia gave the Russian Church enormous revenues from various import/export concerns, including cigarettes and gold and precious metals.

The Government's purpose weas reparation to the Church for the almost utter destruction of churches and church life during the 70 years of Communism.

This money was used to quickly rebuild the Church, creating seminaries, publishing houses, etc., etc., etc.

You will see from what I have bolded in your message that people know this but some  prefer to overlook it in order to destroy the Church.

Cigarette smoking, by the way, is not the great health and social No! No! which it has become in the West.  The Russian doctors and other professionals who immigrate to this country smoke like chimneys!!!  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 05:01:50 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2010, 05:02:53 AM »

But Patriarch Kirill has 4 billion dollars. How is that "holy"?
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2010, 05:04:40 AM »

Is this yet another ploy in your efforts to steal sheep from our communion?

It cannot be the case. After all, Rafa999 is a "friend of the Orthodox Church." Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2010, 05:07:09 AM »

Is this yet another ploy in your efforts to steal sheep from our communion?

It cannot be the case. After all, Rafa999 is a "friend of the Orthodox Church." Roll Eyes

OK, Sorry. I couldn't resist contrasting the ascetic poor humble persecuted Assyrian Church with the super wealthy "Byzantine" orthodox Constantinoplan Church. It was too hard to resist. I plead guilty to reporting the truth on the Patriarch's extreme wealth.
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2010, 05:09:42 AM »

Rafa,

About 15 year back our country was blessed by a visit from the Bishop of Nineveh.  Together with the local Assyrian Church of the East priest I met him at the airport.  He and I in those days did a lot of immigration work and were friends.  We proceeded to the church which they used and there was an official welcome and prayer service.

The Assyrian priest and I estimated that the Bishop had around $50,000 on his back - his suit, his shoes, and his watch.

Besides that he had a house in Paris, a house in London and one in New York.

Wow!  Is that a lifestyle!??

Who funds the opulent lifestyles of some bishops?


Rafa,

Can you remember the name of this Assyrian bishop?   His love of opulence was just amazing and I had to wonder how it squared with the poverty of many of his flock who were refugees in the West.    Perhaps they expect their bishops to display such wealth?  Is it a sign of authority?  Do the other bishops whom you know of the Church of the East enjoy the same ostentatious and wealthy lifestyle?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 05:12:22 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 05:11:54 AM »

Rafa,

About 15 year back our country was blessed by a visit from the Bishop of Nineveh.  Together with the local Assyrian Church of the East priest I met him at the airport.  He and I in those days did a lot of immigration work and were friends.  We proceeded to the church which they used and there was an official welcome and prayer service.

The Assyrian priest and I estimated that the Bishop had around $50,000 on his back - his suit, his shoes, and his watch.

Besides that he had a house in Paris, a house in London and one in New York.

Wow!  Is that a lifestyle!??

Who funds the opulent lifestyles of some bishops?


Rafa,

Can you remember the name of this Assyrian bishop?   His love of opulence was just amazing and I had to wonder how it squared with the poverty of many of his flock who were refugees in the West.    Perhaps they expect their bishops to display such wealth?  Is it a sign of authority?

I was going to ask you for his name actually. Yes, it has to display authority, no homeland for Assyrians, the Patriarch and Bishop of Nineveh is practically a malik (King).
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 05:15:16 AM »

Rafa,

About 15 year back our country was blessed by a visit from the Bishop of Nineveh.  Together with the local Assyrian Church of the East priest I met him at the airport.  He and I in those days did a lot of immigration work and were friends.  We proceeded to the church which they used and there was an official welcome and prayer service.

The Assyrian priest and I estimated that the Bishop had around $50,000 on his back - his suit, his shoes, and his watch.

Besides that he had a house in Paris, a house in London and one in New York.

Wow!  Is that a lifestyle!??

Who funds the opulent lifestyles of some bishops?


Rafa,

Can you remember the name of this Assyrian bishop?   His love of opulence was just amazing and I had to wonder how it squared with the poverty of many of his flock who were refugees in the West.    Perhaps they expect their bishops to display such wealth?  Is it a sign of authority?

I was going to ask you for his name actually. Yes, it has to display authority, no homeland for Assyrians, the Patriarch and Bishop of Nineveh is practically a malik (King).

At that time the Church of the East was rent by schism, over the Calendar issue.  Is it still broken in this way or has it been repaired?  The local Assyrian priest here is on the Old Calendar so I guess that the visiting Bishop of Nineveh was Old Calendar?
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 12:05:02 PM »

I just discovered this, look at the watch the Moscow Patriarch is wearing:



I'm glad you posted this picture.  

Someone's been telling me that it's improper to wear your watch and prayer rope on the same wrist, and I thought that was a load of nonsense but had no way to really argue it until you posted this picture of the Patriarch wearing his watch and prayer rope.  

So, thanks!   Wink
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 12:55:24 PM »

But Patriarch Kirill has 4 billion dollars. How is that "holy"?
How is it any of your business?
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2010, 01:15:26 PM »

My bishop has a thing about wearing a watch while serving.  So much so that before a service begins he will ask us what time it is, and if you pull out your watch then you get reminded...lol  I like to give him back his quote, "We are beyond time."   Smiley  Other than that...so he's wearing an expensive watch, that's between him and God.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 02:37:22 PM »

Wow, look at this:

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28] However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

 Shocked

importing cigarettes to the faithful, this merits another quote:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:10

I, on the other hand, see the importation of foreign cigarettes to be a great charity.

To quote Nick Fury from the X-Men Shadow King saga of the early '90s: "Russian cigarettes taste like wet garbage."

One does hope the Patriarch was importing Dunhill or some other similar quality brand, and not Marlboro or Winston.  Still, anything would be a step up.

And no, I don't smoke cigarettes anymore.  I've become much saner and now only smoke my pipe. 

Yes, it's tobacco.  No, it's not mixed with "other stuff".
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 04:35:38 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 09:38:58 PM »

His Divine All-Holiness has done nothing to correct the confusion which his reported words have caused in the souls of the faithful,
We can theorize all we want, but clearly this has scandalized people. Patriarch Kirill has made an ambiguous statement in wearing the photographed watch. Whether the watch is an expensive original, or a gift or a fake needs to be clarified by him.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 10:37:04 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.

Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked Yet rather than the church community banding together to support our own "widows and orphans", we refer them to social services!?! Shame on us!!

And the patriarch is NOT our Lord, he is merely a man! The Bride of Christ is the Church and there are many in terrible need-Jesus  said, "In so much as ye have done it unto  the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 10:52:23 PM »

Wow, look at this:

Quote
Importation of cigarettes

Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him "Tobacco Metropolitan".[26] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[27] Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[24][28] However, Nathaniel Davis noted that "...There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses."[27] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[27] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirill_I_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

 Shocked

importing cigarettes to the faithful, this merits another quote:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:10

I, on the other hand, see the importation of foreign cigarettes to be a great charity.

To quote Nick Fury from the X-Men Shadow King saga of the early '90s: "Russian cigarettes taste like wet garbage."

One does hope the Patriarch was importing Dunhill or some other similar quality brand, and not Marlboro or Winston.  Still, anything would be a step up.

And no, I don't smoke cigarettes anymore.  I've become much saner and now only smoke my pipe. 

Yes, it's tobacco.  No, it's not mixed with "other stuff".

Erm...doesn't it worry you that the Church is using the money from cancer causing cigarettes to fund itself?

You shall not bring the wages of a harlot or the price of a dog to the house of the LORD your God for any vowed offering, for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God. 

Deuteronomy 23:18


You shall burn the carved images of their gods with fire; you shall not covet the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, lest you be snared by it; for it is an abomination to the LORD your God. Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is an accursed thing.


Deuteronomy 7:25-26




Owners of cursed objects are cursed, I value my dog more than cancer causing cigarettes money placed in the Church treasury  Grin

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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2010, 11:00:45 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.

Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked Yet rather than the church community banding together to support our own "widows and orphans", we refer them to social services!?! Shame on us!!

And the patriarch is NOT our Lord, he is merely a man! The Bride of Christ is the Church and there are many in terrible need-Jesus  said, "In so much as ye have done it unto  the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

You do not know how this watch was obtained or who gave it. How do we know that the person who bought this watch hasn't also donated millions of dollars to worthy causes?

So do you drive a run down car, drink only bread and water, wear sack cloth clothing? I wonder what item you are wearing right now that I can criticize you for wearing?

It seems that we are all being bitten by the jealousy demon this evening.
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2010, 11:04:55 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.

Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked Yet rather than the church community banding together to support our own "widows and orphans", we refer them to social services!?! Shame on us!!

And the patriarch is NOT our Lord, he is merely a man! The Bride of Christ is the Church and there are many in terrible need-Jesus  said, "In so much as ye have done it unto  the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

You do not know how this watch was obtained or who gave it. How do we know that the person who bought this watch hasn't also donated millions of dollars to worthy causes?

So do you drive a run down car, drink only bread and water, wear sack cloth clothing? I wonder what item you are wearing right now that I can criticize you for wearing?

It seems that we are all being bitten by the jealousy demon this evening.


I don't find it right that Patriarch Kirill drives a limousine while drinking champagne (or imported Swiss alpine water if the canons forbid alcohol), wears a 36,0000 Euro watch, lives in a gigantic mansion, etc. while most Russians and Ukrainians are poor. He should live by example. Give away his 4 billion dollar fortune... maybe even start here perhaps?  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2010, 11:08:19 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.

Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked Yet rather than the church community banding together to support our own "widows and orphans", we refer them to social services!?! Shame on us!!

And the patriarch is NOT our Lord, he is merely a man! The Bride of Christ is the Church and there are many in terrible need-Jesus  said, "In so much as ye have done it unto  the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

You do not know how this watch was obtained or who gave it. How do we know that the person who bought this watch hasn't also donated millions of dollars to worthy causes?

So do you drive a run down car, drink only bread and water, wear sack cloth clothing? I wonder what item you are wearing right now that I can criticize you for wearing?

It seems that we are all being bitten by the jealousy demon this evening.


I don't find it right that Patriarch Kirill drives a limousine while drinking champagne (or imported Swiss alpine water if the canons forbid alcohol), wears a 36,0000 Euro watch, lives in a gigantic mansion, etc. while most Russians and Ukrainians are poor. He should live by example. Give away his 4 billion dollar fortune... maybe even start here perhaps?  Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWPjFj9dyoY
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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2010, 11:21:05 PM »


Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked


Our Auckland parish has been offered $(NZD)5,000,000 (five million) by a Russian business man to assist with the building of a new parish church.

Another Russian businessman has already completed the building of a church in the South Island, entirely out of his own funds.

Another Russian businessman has built a parish church in North Dakota, build the priest's house, and pays the priest's salary of $(USD)60,000 a year.

Some people are blessed with money which allows them to act very generously with the Church.
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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2010, 11:25:44 PM »

I know many priest and bishops who have received "expensive" gifts from people. It seems that wrist watches and pens are very popular gift to give and there is a reason they are given.

Many priest and bishops when they are given monetary gifts place that money in an account that can be used for charity. People who know this will thus try and find more personal gift so that their priest or bishop can have something nice and that they can honor their pastor.

Watches that are given as gifts often are inscribed on the back thus making them nearly impossible to freely sell back.

do not wag your head at the people who offer these gifts but rather look at them as being like the woman who used expensive ointment on our Lord before his passion.

Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked Yet rather than the church community banding together to support our own "widows and orphans", we refer them to social services!?! Shame on us!!

And the patriarch is NOT our Lord, he is merely a man! The Bride of Christ is the Church and there are many in terrible need-Jesus  said, "In so much as ye have done it unto  the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

You do not know how this watch was obtained or who gave it. How do we know that the person who bought this watch hasn't also donated millions of dollars to worthy causes?

So do you drive a run down car, drink only bread and water, wear sack cloth clothing? I wonder what item you are wearing right now that I can criticize you for wearing?

It seems that we are all being bitten by the jealousy demon this evening.


I don't find it right that Patriarch Kirill drives a limousine while drinking champagne (or imported Swiss alpine water if the canons forbid alcohol), wears a 36,0000 Euro watch, lives in a gigantic mansion, etc. while most Russians and Ukrainians are poor. He should live by example. Give away his 4 billion dollar fortune... maybe even start here perhaps?  Grin

Rafa,

I don't understand you.  You know that your bishops live a life of sumptuous opulence while their flock sits in the dust either back hom or living as refugees in the West (the majority of them.)  Read what I wrote above about the Bishop of Nineveh, with his jet-set life-style and houses in Paris, London and New York.  Shouldn't you be attending to the plank in the eye of your own Church?

When your flock is so desparately poor, where does the money come from to fund your bishops' lifestyles?   Donations from pious drug cartels?
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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2010, 11:26:33 PM »


Yay, Ray Stevens!  I haven't heard him in years.

As to the question of Mr Steven's song...  Would Jesus even have a tv show?  If yes, then I guess it would depend on the Nielsen ratings.

(By the way, everyone, I'm doing my best to combat the purple demons that seem to infect this forum every fast with humor, and will be running this disclaimer as my new tag until the end of Lent)

Now for something completely different (and serious), Rafa999, I'm still unconvinced as to the dangers of smoking.  The topic has been so wrapped up in politics for so long I doubt all research into the subject since 1970.  I will say this: Smoking does not CAUSE cancer.  If it did then everyone who smoked would get cancer.  It MAY increase the probability of contracting cancer.  One thing is true, however, QUITTING smoking decreases life expectancy.  And Russian cigarettes taste awful.

Now back to humor:
Quote
You shall not bring the wages of a harlot or the price of a dog to the house of the LORD your God for any vowed offering, for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 23:18

Thanks to this Bible verse, Baptist pet store owners until the '60s or thereabouts were not allowed to give offerings.  (which is funny AND true).
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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2010, 11:32:06 PM »



Rafa,

I don't understand you.  You know that your bishops live a life of sumptuous opulence while their flock sits in the dust either back hom or living as refugees in the West (the majority of them.)  Read what I wrote above about the Bishop of Nineveh, with his jet-set life-style and houses in Paris, London and New York.  Shouldn't you be attending to the plank in the eye of your own Church?


The Bishop you described is ancient Church of the East which is in schism. The Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV shares a room I think even (not very sumptuous living), the Assyrians rely on their clergy to represent them in the secular sphere too so they sometimes need a comfy life for this. The only reason the Bishops are refugees in the West is because of persecution from muslims.

But OK Father Ambrose, I will leave Patriarch Kirill and his watch alone. Grin


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Smoking does not CAUSE cancer

The Victims of Patriarch Kirill's cigarette importation business disagree.
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« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2010, 11:38:07 PM »


Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked


Our Auckland parish has been offered $(NZD)5,000,000 (five million) by a Russian business man to assist with the building of a new parish church.

Another Russian businessman has already completed the building of a church in the South Island, entirely out of his own funds.

Another Russian businessman has built a parish church in North Dakota, build the priest's house, and pays the priest's salary of $(USD)60,000 a year.

Some people are blessed with money which allows them to act very generously with the Church.

So, if this is  the case, why are we referring our own church members to social services? Why aren't we caring for each other physically as the early church did? Building sumptuous church buildings is one thing, caring for the poor in our midst and all over the world is another. Why is it that many of my poor Ukrainian friends tell me they have chosen to join Evangelical churches because at least there the church family helps one another, whereas nothing of the sort occurs in the Orthodox church.

And no, I am not in the least jealous of this silly watch; it's the poor, the pensioners, the suffering, and the down-trodden which I've seen first-hand in Orthodox countries that I'm more worried about. And sadly I cannot help them anymore (I did volunteer six years of my life to serving them); I have barely enough to cover food and rent myself.  
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2010, 12:05:37 AM »


Who has money like this to casually dish out thousands on such expensive gifts??? Shocked


Our Auckland parish has been offered $(NZD)5,000,000 (five million) by a Russian business man to assist with the building of a new parish church.

Another Russian businessman has already completed the building of a church in the South Island, entirely out of his own funds.

Another Russian businessman has built a parish church in North Dakota, build the priest's house, and pays the priest's salary of $(USD)60,000 a year.

Some people are blessed with money which allows them to act very generously with the Church.

So, if this is  the case, why are we referring our own church members to social services? Why aren't we caring for each other physically as the early church did? Building sumptuous church buildings is one thing, caring for the poor in our midst and all over the world is another.

The bigger picture.... the longterm picture..... The present parish church holds fifty people.  This particular parish, thanks to the immigration of the last 15 years, has close to 5,000 people.  Most people don't even bother to try and attend church anymore because they know they won't get a look in.

If we do the math, see how long 5,000,000 will support approx 2,000 immigrant families.  Only about 5 weeks!!!

The new church will accommodate them and there will of course be spin-offs such as church classes, programmes to assist those in need... an overall increase in church activities, both educational and charitable programmes.
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 12:11:01 AM »

Comments on this? I have one:

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

My personal opinion would be to leave the issue between the Patriarch and his flock.

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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 12:11:49 AM »

Two quick points;

 1.  This watch was more than likely a gift, but this kind of opulence is a little troubling.  Not that Rafa's peeps are any more humble or whatever...

 2.  Who else thinks it's odd that the Patriarch even needs a watch in the first place?  
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 12:25:02 AM »


Yay, Ray Stevens!  I haven't heard him in years.

As to the question of Mr Steven's song...  Would Jesus even have a tv show?  If yes, then I guess it would depend on the Nielsen ratings.

Glad you like it.  Smiley  The thread just reminded me of the song, I didn't mean it as a criticism of the Patriarch.  He probably received the watch as a gift.  Sometimes rich people have strange priorities, and at least they decided to buy something nice for the Patriarch with their money, not spend it on something for their own pleasure.
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 12:51:12 AM »

OK, this thread started out as a joke, but I think the joke has gone too far. Sorry for inferring that Patriarch Kirill is somehow "less" of a person just because he assumed the title of Patriarch while being a billionaire. He's probably using that money to finance the church anyways, and he's probably a genius financier. I'm still concerned on the cigarettes thing though.
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2010, 01:59:55 AM »

Two quick points;

 1.  This watch was more than likely a gift, but this kind of opulence is a little troubling.  Not that Rafa's peeps are any more humble or whatever...

 2.  Who else thinks it's odd that the Patriarch even needs a watch in the first place?  
Why should we even be concerned about this?
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« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2010, 02:06:43 AM »

Two quick points;

 1.  This watch was more than likely a gift, but this kind of opulence is a little troubling.  Not that Rafa's peeps are any more humble or whatever...

 2.  Who else thinks it's odd that the Patriarch even needs a watch in the first place?  
Why should we even be concerned about this?

Well, Ozgeorge points out above that this is scandalising some people and it needs clarification.  I am glad he said that since it highlights why some want the Patriarch of Constantinople to clarify his abortion statement - not that we equate a Breguet on the wrist with a baby in the dumpster!!!
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« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2010, 02:12:04 AM »

Why is it that many of my poor Ukrainian friends tell me they have chosen to join Evangelical churches because at least there the church family helps one another, whereas nothing of the sort occurs in the Orthodox church.

Well I'm sorry if that's the case there, but my parish certain doesn't work that way.  Everybody gives extra when someone else is in need in the church.  An example of this is just the other month a member of the church needed about $2,000 for a test to see if his cancer was returning, as he was uninsured.  Many people gave $100 each (we are a very small parish), and the test was paid for by the parishioners.
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« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2010, 02:37:19 AM »

Quote
Why is it that many of my poor Ukrainian friends tell me they have chosen to join Evangelical churches because at least there the church family helps one another, whereas nothing of the sort occurs in the Orthodox church.
I don't  know the situation in Ukraine, but I think that this is too simplistic a vision, although there surely are incidents that fit it.
Our parish back home, helped the elderly and the poor, and that has always been done in most villages, towns and cities.
Then again, I've heard quite a few stories about Baptist and Pentecostal pastors becoming rich at the expense of their communities or using the said communities to cover their suspicious business activities.
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« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2010, 08:08:40 AM »


 Why is it that many of my poor Ukrainian friends tell me they have chosen to join Evangelical churches because at least there the church family helps one another, whereas nothing of the sort occurs in the Orthodox church.
  

The Diocese of Moscow runs 400 soup kitchens daily, staffed by monks and nuns and volunteers.

It runs clinics for alcoholics and for addicts.

It runs orphanages.  Surprised that no urchin has nicked the Patrirch's watch!   laugh

I would be fairly sure that other dioceses do the same.
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 08:19:51 AM »

Two quick points;

 1.  This watch was more than likely a gift, but this kind of opulence is a little troubling.  Not that Rafa's peeps are any more humble or whatever...

 2.  Who else thinks it's odd that the Patriarch even needs a watch in the first place?  
Why should we even be concerned about this?
Why should we not be concerned?  And who am I to ask you why this or that bothers you?
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2010, 10:05:24 AM »

Well, Ozgeorge points out above that this is scandalising some people and it needs clarification.  I am glad he said that since it highlights why some want the Patriarch of Constantinople to clarify his abortion statement - not that we equate a Breguet on the wrist with a baby in the dumpster!!!
You really are oblivious, aren't you?
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2010, 11:43:27 AM »

OK, this thread started out as a joke, but I think the joke has gone too far. Sorry for inferring that Patriarch Kirill is somehow "less" of a person just because he assumed the title of Patriarch while being a billionaire. He's probably using that money to finance the church anyways, and he's probably a genius financier. I'm still concerned on the cigarettes thing though.

I'd like to know where you got this information from. How could the patriarch possibly be a billionaire, if he was a monk? I always understood monks gave up all personal property. This doesn't make sense to me.
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« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2010, 02:37:22 PM »

Well, Ozgeorge points out above that this is scandalising some people and it needs clarification.  I am glad he said that since it highlights why some want the Patriarch of Constantinople to clarify his abortion statement - not that we equate a Breguet on the wrist with a baby in the dumpster!!!
You really are oblivious, aren't you?

Forgive me, dear Professor, for any offence you have taken.
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« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2010, 03:34:26 PM »

Two quick points;

 1.  This watch was more than likely a gift, but this kind of opulence is a little troubling.  Not that Rafa's peeps are any more humble or whatever...

 2.  Who else thinks it's odd that the Patriarch even needs a watch in the first place?  
Why should we even be concerned about this?
Why should we not be concerned?
Simple.  You see how the meddling in business not our own has caused so many of us to be judgmental of the Patriarch?  How does that benefit our salvation, especially during this time of the Fast?

And who am I to ask you why this or that bothers you?
Simple.  By submitting a post to a public Internet discussion board, you automatically open your thoughts up to scrutiny.
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