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Author Topic: The Vicar of the Patriarch of Moscow recognizes the sacraments of the RCC  (Read 1957 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 12, 2010, 01:34:23 AM »

Source: VERTOGRAD
Orthodox Journal
Newsletter No. 76, Wednesday, October 21, 2009. 02:37 P.M.


A MEMBER OF THE HOLY SYNOD OF THE MP STATES THAT HIS CHURCH RECOGNIZES ROMAN
CATHOLIC MYSTERIES

“To all intent and purposes, mutual recognition of each others Mysteries already
exists between us. We do not have communion in the Mysteries, but we do
recognize each others Mysteries”, declared Archbishop Hilarion (Alfeev) on the
air during a broadcast of the program “The Church and the World” on the
television channel “Russia”, on October 17th (video and text
http://vera.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237432<http://vera.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237432>\
).

“If a Roman Catholic priest converts to Orthodoxy, we receive him as a priest,
and we do not re-ordain him. And that means that, de facto, we recognize the
Mysteries of the Roman Catholic Church”, explained Archbishop Hilarion.

Responding to the question of whether Roman Catholics can receive Communion from
the Orthodox, or Orthodox Christians from the Roman Catholics, Archbishop
Hilarion said that such giving of Communion should not take place, inasmuch as
“eucharistic communion has been broken” between the Orthodox and Roman
Catholics. But, at the same time, he made clear that in some cases such
Communion is possible: "Exceptional cases occur, when, for example, a Roman
Catholic is dying in some town where there is no Roman Catholic priest at all in
the vicinity. So he asks an Orthodox priest to come. Then in such a case, I
think, the Orthodox priest should go and give Communion to that person."

Archbishop of Volokolamsk, Vicar of the Patriarch of Moscow, is the Chairman of
the Department of External Church Relations, and a Permanent Member of the Holy
Synod of the MP. Archbishop Hilarion is a member of the Executive and Central
Committees of the World Council of Churches, of the Presidium of ‘Faith and
Order’ Commission, as well as of numerous bilateral theological dialogues. In
1998 he headed the 5-member Moscow Patriarchate delegation to the 8th WCC
Assembly in Harare, and in February 2006 headed the Moscow Patriarchate's
21-member delegation to the 9th Assembly in Porto-Alegre. Bishop Hilarion is a
permanent member of the Joint International Commissions for the Theological
Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, between the
Orthodox Church and the Anglican Church, between the Orthodox Church and the
World Alliance of Reformed Churches.

Patriarch Kirill stated that the MP "suspended dialogue" with the RCC, but on September 18th, Archbishop Hilarion went to the Vatican to talk with Pope Benedict XVI, and confirm the close relationship, friendship and more collaboration between the RCC and the MP, and discussing the ecumenical meeting that would take place in Cyprus.

Video with brief explaination @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcigMHM8914

The treachery and duplicity of the MP continue, in spite of being so patently exposed. They put the C in cynicism. And still many consider them orthodox?






« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:46:03 AM by IPC » Logged

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 01:55:44 AM »

... here we go again ....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 01:56:36 AM »

I just knew it!
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 02:01:27 AM »

You guys are the ones using a Roman Catholic liturgical calendar....
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 02:05:03 AM »

Isn't this the same guy who claimed that "Orthodox hell" is equivalent to RC Purgatory? And the same guy who expressed an Origenist understanding of the resurrection body?

Should I be surprised?
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 02:35:54 AM »

You guys are the ones using a Roman Catholic liturgical calendar....

I think he may be a Roman Catholic troll... We have seen no evidence that the man is Orthodox.  The first step for anybody claiming he or she is Orthodox is to name their bishop.

Could the C in IPC stand for Catholic?

There is a distressing pattern of the man opening threads so that he may make wildly obnoxious claims against the Orthodox, such as that my Metropolitan is an accessory to a New York murder, and when he cannot substantiate the claim he moves on and opens yet another negative thread.  But of course the damage which he wishes to bring about has been done, and especially in the minds of any enquirers reading the Forum.

His desire appears to be to destabilise the Orthodox reading his messages and to turn enquirers on the Forum away from Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 02:40:39 AM »

I think he may be a Roman Catholic troll...

I just knew it!
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 11:56:33 AM »

He's illuminati-Mossad Wink
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 12:36:24 PM »

Illuminati!!!  I just knew it!  This explains all those “wasted” posts.

An angry wife met her husband, a Freemason, at the door. There was alcohol on his breath, shirt, and pants. "I assume," she snarled, "that there is a very good reason for you to come stumbling in at six o'clock in the morning?"

"There is." he replied, "Breakfast at the lodge." 
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 09:10:30 AM »



Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) shouted down as ‘heretic’ by members of the Patriarchate of Moscow

On the evening of Saturday 13 February, Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was greeted by shouts of ‘heretic’, as he came out at the polyeleios at matins. The disturbance took place in the Church of the Icon of the Mother of God of All those who Sorrow, which is on the Ordynka in Moscow. Metropolitan Hilarion serves regularly in this church.

The young Metropolitan Hilarion, who possesses a doctorate from the University of Oxford, has shocked many members of the Patriarchate (and other Local Orthodox Churches) in recent weeks with various of his private opinions. These all appear to challenge Russian Orthodox values, for example concerning traditional Orthodox dress in church, preparation before communion and relations with Roman Catholicism.

The situation has not been helped by the leaking of a discussion document which resulted from ecumenical talks about papal primacy. These talks were held last year in Crete among academics from the Orthodox Church and from the Vatican. The discussion document has been dubbed the ‘Cretan Unia’ by its opponents. The situation thus resembles that in Greece in the 60s and 70s, where Greek ecumenists of that generation were also regularly shouted down during services as heretics.

All this serves to show just how broad a spectrum of opinion is represented within the Patriarchate of Moscow. These are far broader than within the Tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, where views are much more consistent. Presumably, this must result from the fact that there are so many recently baptised in the Patriarchate, who do not always know or understand the Tradition.
 
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/heretic.htm
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2010, 12:37:29 AM »

I hope the Metropolitan is not the first in a line of bishops who will apostazise  as prophesied by some Russian elders.  His private opinions are probably shared by most lib bishops these days...nothing new but sad.
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2010, 01:14:38 AM »

Why are the people of Russia so shocked by this? The recognition of Latin sacraments is nothing new for Moscow, they have been doing it since the creation of Byzantine Rite Catholics as a counter measure to allow for easy conversion of these clergy back to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2010, 02:44:58 AM »

Like I said, it matters not what the private layman believes. I'm more interested in what your hierarchs believe, and they fortunately know that the tower of babel policy some favor here is not feasible. Thank MarYah.
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 08:07:12 AM »

From the last opinions of Metr. Hilarion I've read about there is no one that I disagree with.
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 09:11:33 AM »

From the last opinions of Metr. Hilarion I've read about there is no one that I disagree with.

Do you mean the opinions expressed by the Metropolitan in the first post?
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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »

I believe that the next sacrament (confession, Communion) can fill the shortcomings of the previous ones and 'second'  baptisms, chrismations and ordinations are not necessary
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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 10:02:37 AM »

I believe that the next sacrament (confession, Communion) can fill the shortcomings of the previous ones and 'second'  baptisms, chrismations and ordinations are not necessary
I see. Thanks. And by the way I agree. And so does the Orthodox Church, so I don't see the problem either.
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2010, 10:54:24 AM »

I believe that the next sacrament (confession, Communion) can fill the shortcomings of the previous ones and 'second'  baptisms, chrismations and ordinations are not necessary
I see. Thanks. And by the way I agree. And so does the Orthodox Church, so I don't see the problem either.

The last official document from Constantinople on the question of Baptism for Roman Catholics and the diversity of practices on this point which is seen in the various local Orthodox Churches comes from the Patriarchal αnd Synodical Letter of 26 May 1875 from the Great Church of Constantinople. 

It briefly mentions and describes the diversity of practices found in various Churches, some baptizing Catholics and some not, and Constantinople recommends that whatever practices the Local Churches have in place remain in place. 

The document from Constantinople concludes:  " Whenever, then, the local orthodox Churches might be able to gather together, then, with God's help, the desired agreement on this subject [of baptizing Roman Catholics] will take place, as with others [questions] as well."

Since this decision of the Great Church of Constantinople in 1875 no pan-Orthodox meeting has actually taken place to decide this question and the provisions of the Letter remain in force. i.e., let each Local Church decide its own position on baptizing Catholics, until a pan-Orthodox Synod will convene and make decisions.

Fr George Dragas makes an interesting comment on the decision from Constantinople:

"... the Holy Synod looks to the future for a unanimous Orthodox solution to the 'problem' of reception of cοnverts from the Western Church into Orthodoxy. Ι believe that the solution is already there. It is not uniformity, but the freedom, which characterizes the Orthodox position. Such position lays stress οn the act of the Holy Spirit who perfects (teleioi) in us all that the Lord has accomplished for us objectively."

More information on Myriobiblos, the e-text Library of the Church or Greece

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/Dragas_RomanCatholic_4.html#51_top


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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2010, 06:51:12 PM »

From http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/heretic.htm :

Quote
Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) shouted down as ‘heretic’ by members of the Patriarchate of Moscow

On the evening of Saturday 13 February, Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk was greeted by shouts of ‘heretic’, as he came out at the polyeleios at matins. The disturbance took place in the Church of the Icon of the Mother of God of All those who Sorrow, which is on the Ordynka in Moscow. Metropolitan Hilarion serves regularly in this church.

The young Metropolitan Hilarion, who possesses a doctorate from the University of Oxford, has shocked many members of the Patriarchate (and other Local Orthodox Churches) in recent weeks with various of his private opinions. These all appear to challenge Russian Orthodox values, for example concerning traditional Orthodox dress in church, preparation before communion and relations with Roman Catholicism.

The situation has not been helped by the leaking of a discussion document which resulted from ecumenical talks about papal primacy. These talks were held last year in Crete among academics from the Orthodox Church and from the Vatican. The discussion document has been dubbed the ‘Cretan Unia’ by its opponents. The situation thus resembles that in Greece in the 60s and 70s, where Greek ecumenists of that generation were also regularly shouted down during services as heretics.

All this serves to show just how broad a spectrum of opinion is represented within the Patriarchate of Moscow. These are far broader than within the Tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, where views are much more consistent. Presumably, this must result from the fact that there are so many recently baptised in the Patriarchate, who do not always know or understand the Tradition.
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