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Author Topic: St. Gregory Palamas and Stigmata?  (Read 16026 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2010, 05:09:58 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.
How so?  Could you please clarify what you mean here?
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« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2010, 05:12:59 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.

How so?  Could you please clarify what you mean here?


To be honest, I'm not sure it's worth getting into here. I've voiced this before so you can look at my previous posts but during Lent I'm really not all that motivated into 'go to ground' with you all.
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« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?
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« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2010, 09:11:28 AM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.
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« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2010, 10:12:31 AM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.

Really? You're just going to label us all in one fall-swoop? Sad So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.

Really? You're just going to label us all in one fall-swoop? Sad So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew

No, not in one Fell-swoop... and I attempt to keep my comments targeted to those 'here' on the forum. With regards to 'their own' saints... I see a lot of early Church Saints that don't fit all too well with the modern Orthodox presentation of the Faith. Pointing that out isn't 'interpreting' in a Roman Catholic mindset... I see this modern aversion to the early Church acetic present in the west also...
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« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2010, 12:47:36 PM »

So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
Andrew, do not fret. Ignatius has been flip flopping back and forth for years.  Believe me, next month he will want to convert to Holy Orthodoxy once again. It is his M.O.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2010, 01:04:11 PM »

So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
Andrew, do not fret. Ignatius has been flip flopping back and forth for years.  Believe me, next month he will want to convert to Holy Orthodoxy once again. It is his M.O.  Roll Eyes



True but it is a genuine flip flopping Mickey.
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« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2010, 10:16:14 AM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.
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« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2010, 10:27:39 AM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.

I think I am pointing out the hypocrisy of 'some' Orthodox who seek to artificially widen the divide between the West and the East with regards to mortification and the Stigmata as a genuine sign of Christ and His devout followers the Apostles.
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« Reply #100 on: March 24, 2010, 10:46:21 AM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.

I think I am pointing out the hypocrisy of 'some' Orthodox who seek to artificially widen the divide between the West and the East with regards to mortification and the Stigmata as a genuine sign of Christ and His devout followers the Apostles.

The Orthodox critique of "stigmata" that I've seen has nothing to do with rejecting mortification or suffering. It has to do with the overall spiritual approach that produces stigmatics, which tends to be passionate and stimulating to the imagination, seeking after visions and spiritual experiences. The Orthodox ascetic approach is more one of prayer and repentance, avoiding any images and not soliciting God for visions or trials, only mercy. When visions come to saints, they are unbidden.

I agree that some people do exaggerate the divide between Orthodoxy and the Latins, but the key word is some. Other people overly downplay the divide. You can find some people to disagree with in every tradition.

Don't base your opinion of Orthodoxy on a handful of internet personalities, even if some of them promote themselves as authorities. It is very obvious in Orthodox praxis that asceticism is indispensable and central.
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« Reply #101 on: March 24, 2010, 12:18:20 PM »

The Orthodox critique of "stigmata" that I've seen has nothing to do with rejecting mortification or suffering. It has to do with the overall spiritual approach that produces stigmatics, which tends to be passionate and stimulating to the imagination, seeking after visions and spiritual experiences.

Yes. It is called "prelest".
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« Reply #102 on: March 24, 2010, 01:13:56 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.
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« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2010, 03:10:28 PM »

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.

Indeed.
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« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2010, 04:20:12 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?
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« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2010, 07:17:46 PM »

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.
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« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2010, 11:14:00 AM »

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.
Yes Alveus.  This is completely accurate. It is an odd schizophrenia of sorts.  There is a 180 degree change in mindset every other month. And it is perpetual. I also find this sort thing particularly frustrating--because you never know which person you are communicatring with on any given month.
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« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2010, 02:06:01 PM »

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kinda think is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.
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« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kind of thing is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.

Yeah, nothing says inner transformation like being the tragically misunderstood rebel on the fringes. You let me know once you figure out what is truly complete and whole so that I can drink your kool-aid instead.

I obviously didn't mean to pick a group for the sake of belonging to one, I meant that at some point you just have to decide with some conviction and resolve. Otherwise you end up running in circles your whole life and never moving forward. Maybe that choice for you is that nobody has it quite right, and the best that God has revealed to us are a new set of possibilities within a limited framework. If that's your position, mainline nondenominational Protestantism is the choice for you.

I know you're simply trying to be intellectually honest, and that's admirable, but perpetual indecisiveness is not admirable. Inaction/stagnation is the same thing as being dead. God spits out the lukewarm, and He likewise craps out the inert.
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« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2010, 02:31:48 PM »

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kind of thing is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.

Yeah, nothing says inner transformation like being the tragically misunderstood rebel on the fringes. You let me know once you figure out what is truly complete and whole so that I can drink your kool-aid instead.

I obviously didn't mean to pick a group for the sake of belonging to one, I meant that at some point you just have to decide with some conviction and resolve. Otherwise you end up running in circles your whole life and never moving forward. Maybe that choice for you is that nobody has it quite right, and the best that God has revealed to us are a new set of possibilities within a limited framework. If that's your position, mainline nondenominational Protestantism is the choice for you.

I know you're simply trying to be intellectually honest, and that's admirable, but perpetual indecisiveness is not admirable. Inaction/stagnation is the same thing as being dead. God spits out the lukewarm, and He likewise craps out the inert.

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted. I don't think that is lukewarm, inert or indecisive. What I 'like' about Orthodoxy I also 'like' about Catholicism. I'm just not ready to switch 'team-shirts' as much as the Roman Church irks me at times.
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« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2010, 02:53:19 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley

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« Reply #111 on: March 26, 2010, 02:54:31 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley


Why are you picking on him? Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
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« Reply #112 on: March 26, 2010, 03:23:27 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley


Why are you picking on him? Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
Not only is this round of picking on ignatius uncalled for and borderline ad hominem, it also distracts from the purpose of this discussion.  So knock it off, all of you!
(Not addressing this directive to you, Papist, since I'm only reinforcing your advice. Wink)
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« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2010, 04:17:25 PM »

Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
No, I do not.


And I offer my deepest apologies to Ignatius.

Please forgive me.
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« Reply #114 on: April 04, 2010, 12:22:01 PM »

These kinds of discussions are always sad because they are essentially cruel and bring out the worst in everyone.

I would like to mention to the Orthodox who think they know wot's wot that the Catholic Church is not eager to embrace every stigmatic as an indication of automatic sanctity, and that it is actually false witness to continue to assert such things, and that false witness is an objectively evil act...so I am sure you really don't mean what you are saying to be false witness.  Therefore it would be good to keep silent till one actually knows what one is talking about.

In fact Padre Pio suffered deep isolation because of something he never asked for and never desired.  His life is a well documented podvig.

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

Blessed Pascha to all!

M.
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« Reply #115 on: April 04, 2010, 08:20:50 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
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« Reply #116 on: April 04, 2010, 10:17:32 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.

St. Gregory does not actively and vigorously reject the teaching of my Church. 

Perhaps you were speaking to someone else? 

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think that the Palamite controversy was an Orthodox vs. Catholic argument...are you?

EM
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« Reply #117 on: April 04, 2010, 11:12:30 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.

St. Gregory does not actively and vigorously reject the teaching of my Church. 

Perhaps you were speaking to someone else? 

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think that the Palamite controversy was an Orthodox vs. Catholic argument...are you?

EM

A Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest that teaches a class I am taking does not like St. Gregory Palamas in the least. He is the one that told us that St. Gregory actively opposed Roman Catholic teaching, i.e. saying the filioque was heretical, etc. Unfortunately for him, St. Gregory is on his calendar.  Grin

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2010, 11:31:48 PM »


A Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest that teaches a class I am taking does not like St. Gregory Palamas in the least. He is the one that told us that St. Gregory actively opposed Roman Catholic teaching, i.e. saying the filioque was heretical, etc. Unfortunately for him, St. Gregory is on his calendar.  Grin

In Christ,
Andrew

Everyone who's ever discussed this on the Internet has read the newadvent Catholic encyclopedia entry on hesychasm and St. Gregory.  But there's very good historical data that says that some monastics took the position evidenced in the encyclopedia, while others did not and some of them disagreed within the same monastic order, and other orders simply never took a position counter to the father's whose teachings informed Palamas, and that informed the development of parish spirituality differently in different parts of the Catholic world.   So unless you've read deeply in western monastic history, all you can do is generalize and over-generalize, one minute grabbing the elephant's trunk and the next moment his tail....Not particularly representative of consensus that way.

EM



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« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2010, 01:50:36 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.
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« Reply #120 on: April 05, 2010, 02:12:58 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.
It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.

See folks, what we have here is consistency on both sides, free from any dishonest glossing over the differences. "Byzantine" Christians, eat your hearts out.
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« Reply #121 on: April 05, 2010, 07:31:38 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.
It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.

See folks, what we have here is consistency on both sides, free from any dishonest glossing over the differences. "Byzantine" Christians, eat your hearts out.

Some of our differences are real.  Some of them are created, such as this one.

The question always has been are those differences sufficient to sustain the sin of schism.

I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
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« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2010, 11:21:03 AM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.
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« Reply #123 on: April 05, 2010, 11:58:20 AM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.

It is not an unwarranted approach and surely not an attack to describe a poster's general tone and approach.  Your posts strike me as discordant.  It seems to me also that out of the heart the mouth speaks.  So just pretend I am from Missouri and "show me" what you want me to see of you.  Otherwise I can only see what you do offer in fact.

EM
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« Reply #124 on: April 05, 2010, 07:10:28 PM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.

It is not an unwarranted approach and surely not an attack to describe a poster's general tone and approach.  Your posts strike me as discordant.  It seems to me also that out of the heart the mouth speaks.  So just pretend I am from Missouri and "show me" what you want me to see of you.  Otherwise I can only see what you do offer in fact.

EM
Let me be honest with you buddy, your first post referring to me was nothing less than discordant. I am not to sure you have that great an impression on me either. So please, dear judge, tell me what is so aweful about what I have said.
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« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2010, 12:48:42 AM »

Tangent on God's mercy split off and moved here:  What Do We Mean When We Pray, "Lord have mercy!"?
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