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Author Topic: St. Gregory Palamas and Stigmata?  (Read 15753 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2010, 02:55:59 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

I don't mean to be uncharitable, but your statement is a great example of the Latin mindset towards the Eastern Catholic Churches that led many of us and our families to return to the Orthodox Church. Like it or not, your thinking on this subject is contrary to the teachings of your Church, post-Vatican 2 for sure.
No its not.
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2010, 03:42:07 PM »

Papist,
Pope John Paul II wasn't of your same opinion. What you consider to be a great contradiction between Palamite (Hesychast) theology and Thomistic theology wasn't see as a contradiction but as a difference of language by His Holiness during an Angelus speech (11th August 1996). Here's the full text.

Quote
EASTERN THEOLOGY HAS ENRICHED THE WHOLE CHURCH
Pope John Paul II
Angelus 11 August 1996

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. Continuing my reflection on Eastern Christianity, today I would like to focus attention on the development of Eastern theology, which, even in the centuries that followed the age of the Fathers and the sad division with the Apostolic See, led to profound and stimulating perspectives at which the whole Church looks with interest. Although there is still disagreement on this point or that, we must not forget that what unites us is greater than what divides us.

An important doctrinal development occurred between the eighth and ninth centuries after the "iconoclast" crisis unleashed by several Byzantine emperors, who decided radically to suppress the veneration of sacred images. Many were forced to suffer for resisting this absurd imposition. St John Damascene and St Theodore the Studite come to mind in particular. The victorious outcome of their resistance proved decisive not only for devotion and sacred art, but also for a deeper understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation. Indeed, in the final analysis the defense of images was based on the fact that God truly became man in Jesus of Nazareth. It is therefore legitimate for the artist to endeavour to portray his face, not only with the aid of his talent, but especially by interior docility to God's Spirit. The images refer to the Mystery that surpasses them, and they help us feel its presence in our life.

2. The hesychast controversy marked another distinctive moment in Eastern theology. In the East, hesychasm means a method of prayer characterized by a deep tranquillity of the spirit, which is engaged in constant contemplation of God by invoking the name of Jesus. There was no lack of tension with the Catholic viewpoint on certain aspects of this practice. However, we should acknowledge the good intentions which guided the defense of this spiritual method, that is, to emphasize the concrete possibility that man is given to unite himself with the Triune God in the intimacy of his heart, in that deep union of grace which Eastern theology likes to describe with the particularly powerful term of "theosis", "divinization".

Precisely in this regard Eastern spirituality has amassed a very rich experience which was vigorously presented in the famous collection of texts significantly entitled Philokalia (love of beauty") and gathered by Nicodemus the Hagiorite at the end of the 18th century. Down the centuries until our day, Eastern theological reflection has undergone interesting developments, not only in the classical areas of the Byzantine and Russian tradition, but also in the Orthodox communities scattered throughout the world. One need only recall, among the many studies worthy of mention, the Theology of Beauty elaborated by Pavel Nikolaievich Evdokimov, which is based on the Eastern art of the icon, and the study of the doctrine of "divinization" by the Orthodox scholar, Loth Borovine.

How many things we have in common! It is time for Catholics and Orthodox to make an extra effort to understand each other better and to recognize with the renewed wonder of brotherhood what the Spirit is accomplishing in their respective traditions towards a new Christian springtime.

Now, the Philokalia (which the Pope considered to be an amass of "very rich experience") contains the writings of st. Gregory Palamas. Gregory committed errors as any other saint, which means nothing on the personal sainthood of his Christian conduct. You could consider him as a "servant of God" or a "venerable" but you can't say he was an heretic: do you think a Pope would allow the veneration of an heretic? Have you ever seen somebody honour Luther or Arius in the Catholic Church?

Also, if we look at the Catholic Faith as a parameter, don't you see that even st. Thomas Aquinas was heretic as he denied Mary was Immaculate since her conception? Also, where is it written that the Roman Catholic Church condemns hesychasm as heresy or that created grace is a DOGMA of the Catholic Church? Don't you know that some 20 million Catholics worldwide (about 2% of all Catholics) belong to the Eastern traditions basing themselves also on the hesychast devotion which was defended by Palamas?

The truth is that you must understand that Roman primacy doesn't mean Latin primacy. Latinity is only the majority section of the Catholic Church, but not its entirety, you like it or not. And this happens under the legitimation of infallible Papal authority.

In Christ,   Alex

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2010, 03:44:23 PM »

To answer to the OP, I think that Gregory Palamas may have had stigmata, and that the Synaxarion alludes to them. Anyway, that doesn't mean anything to prove one's sainthood, and a person without stigmata may be more saint then one without them... in other words, had Gregory Palamas stigmata or not, it is truly a useless matter.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2010, 04:22:55 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2010, 04:57:13 PM »

The truth is that you must understand that Roman primacy doesn't mean Latin primacy. Latinity is only the majority section of the Catholic Church, but not its entirety, you like it or not. And this happens under the legitimation of infallible Papal authority.

All of this goes to show, not that it makes sense to venerate St. Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, but that the Catholic Church is deeply incoherent and approaching relativism. The "infallible Papal authority" you cite is in fact openly questioned by the schizophrenic "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  Papist's arguments against venerating St. Gregory in the RCC are sound; the trouble is, sound logic went out from the RCC a long time ago.
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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2010, 05:51:25 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2010, 06:19:44 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf

More to the point, as has been discussed before, the Melkites had removed St. Gregory from the calendar and he has been explicitely restored.

Btw, glad to see you. May your Lent be blessed.
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2010, 07:17:56 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
Nope. There is such absolute consent on the Holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that it would be silly to doubt her. But a man like Palamas who even rejected the idea of communion with the Catholic Church, well that is different matter altogether.

And yes, I know when the process of cannonization was established. What is your point?
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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2010, 07:20:16 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.

So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?

HA!  Well played.  Cheesy
The purpose of the cannonization process is so that we can all KNOW which saints are appropriate for veneration rather than guess. We do have a concept of universiality in the Catholic Church. I know that such a concept is not present in your Church. Its a different ecclesiology.
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2010, 07:34:37 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2010, 08:00:22 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
Nope. There is such absolute consent on the Holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that it would be silly to doubt her. But a man like Palamas who even rejected the idea of communion with the Catholic Church, well that is different matter altogether.

You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.


Quote
And yes, I know when the process of cannonization was established. What is your point?
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2010, 08:08:46 PM »



You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.
I mean communion with the Catholic Church. Please dont' tell me what I mean because you are almost always wrong about that.
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
And yet he was never officially cannonized so his sainthood can be questioned. Other saints have been removed from our Calander; I think its Gregory's turn.
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2010, 08:36:29 PM »



You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.
I mean communion with the Catholic Church. Please dont' tell me what I mean because you are almost always wrong about that.
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
And yet he was never officially cannonized so his sainthood can be questioned. Other saints have been removed from our Calander; I think its Gregory's turn.
Do Orthodoxy the favor and convince HH B XVI. It can become another Cum Data Fuerit.
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2010, 08:48:42 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.
So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.
The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
HA!  Well played.  Cheesy
The purpose of the cannonization process is so that we can all KNOW which saints are appropriate for veneration rather than guess. We do have a concept of universality in the Catholic Church. I know that such a concept is not present in your Church. Its a different ecclesiology.

Please read what I wrote again.  You're saying that the canonization process of your particular churches is inferior to the way that the Vatican does it, and if they don't get Rome's stamp of approval, their own saints are demoted to the status of an optional saint, which is no real confirmed saint at all.  So we go from the notion of particular churches with equal dignity to the Roman See to the reality that they are inferior tributaries which ultimately have to flow back West for any real authority to their claims.  This is why Eastern Vaticanism isn't a legitimate option.  At the end of the day, they're just the bastard kids on the back porch.
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2010, 10:38:10 PM »

Let me just make it clear that I am not some sort of "stigmata aficionado" just that I have seen a case of stigmata so I know it is something which actually happens. Now if it is demonic, Holy, or neither but something else (ie: some sort of divine thing placed on people for purposes unknown to us) I have no idea.
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2010, 04:36:26 AM »

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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2010, 01:12:16 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2010, 01:14:18 PM »

Btw, glad to see you. May your Lent be blessed.
May God also bless you greatly as you fast in preparation for holy Pascha.
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »

A little information for you Papist:
there was no Pope in Rome at the time of Gregory Palamas. That was the period of the Avignon Papacy (1309 to 1378 AD). I don't think there could have been some kind of communication, even by epistle, between Gregory Palamas and the Roman Church in such a grave period. Gregory was trying to reform his own Church according to the mystical understanding he had - and that could have been a Divine plan so that through our Eastern Catholic brethren we might be led (as Westeners) to a further understanding of the inner life of God (not an understanding by reason but by a direct mystical approach to the Trinity such as Hesychasm proposes). In case you don't know, even other Catholic saints of the First Millennium expressed precisely the same opinions. St. Basil wrote thus: "the energies are numerous and the essence of God simple and what we know when we say God is in fact His energies. We do not pressure to approach His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach". Basil approved the same thoughts of Gregory Palamas, he also reaffirmed the simplicity of God's essence, yet he affirmed that we commune in God's energies. I don't see any problem with that, yet you insist in seeing non-existence problems.
Also consider that Pope John Paul II called Gregory Palamas a saint in a conference with both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. Look at the greatly Catholic expressions of faith of this monk:
On the Filioque: "The Spirit of the supreme Word is like a certain kind of love which the Father has for the mysteriously generated Word; and it is that same love that the most beloved Word and Son of the Father has for the one who generated him" which echoes Leo XIII's encyclical on the Paraclete whom he says to be "the divine Goodness and the mutual Love of the Father and the Son". (full reference here
Quote
)
And on the Blessed Virgin, John Paul II stated in a general audience (12th November 1997): "However, there remain some disagreements regarding the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, even if these truths were first expounded by certain Eastern theologians—one need only recall great writers like Gregory Palamas (d. 1359), Nicholas Cabasilas (d. after 1369) and George Scholarios (d. after 1472)." (look here for the entire document http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_12111997_en.html).

Thus all your words against Gregory Palamas are unjust since:
1) Pope John Paul II appreciated Hesychasm as defended by the great monk
2) The same Pope, whose image is in your avatar, called him a saint publicly in a conference (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/stgregorypalamas.shtm)
3) The Roman Pontiff allows honouring him as a saint in the Eastern Catholic Church
4) Gregory's orthodoxy on the matters of the double procession of the Holy Spirit and the doctrines concerning Mary are affirmed on the official site of the Holy See which quotes the words of His Holiness Pope Karol Wojtila
5) The doctrine of uncreated grace has never been sanctioned as dogma nor is it necessarily implied in any infallible document either ex cathedra or in Ecumenical Councils or liturgical texts. The affirmation that the Uncreated Energies deny the doctrine of God's simplicity don't affect Gregory Palamas's theology since many Church Fathers in the past made errors in the words they adopted to express the Catholic Faith (look at st. Clement of Alexandria with his "One Nature of the Incarnate Word") but are nevertheless considered to be orthodox and saint (from a Catholic point of view)
6) Gregory was a saint canonized locally long before the modern canonization process ever existed, nevertheless no need has been shown for the re-canonization of 17 centuries of saints living before this new rule to proclaim saints had been introduced. The fact that His Holiness expressly wanted and authorized that st. Gregory Palamas be honoured in the Eastern Catholic Churches is a ratification of this.
7) There are, as I said, many good reasons why Gregory Palamas had no occasion to enter the Roman Catholic Church - one is the absence of a certain authority of Popes in the period of the Avignon Captivity, and the second is, I must add, the prevalence of anti-mystic approaches to theology then dictated by Scholasticism and Thomist which aren't anymore the basis for Catholic dogmatics or better the Catholic Church allows for different words to be used to express the same truths.

May God lead you to a greater faithfulness to the Magisterium whom you claim to obey as a Roman Catholic.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2010, 02:12:38 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

I don't see anything offensive in Papist's comment- I'd say the same thing to an Orthodox who venerated Francis of Assisi or Thomas Aquinas. It makes no sense for Byzantine Catholics to venerate St. Gregory Palamas- they should become Orthodox.
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2010, 02:16:31 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
Why is it offensive to question whether the Catholic Church should consider a person who is outside of our communion and even opposed communion with our Church to be a saint.
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2010, 02:23:39 PM »

A little information for you Papist:
there was no Pope in Rome at the time of Gregory Palamas. That was the period of the Avignon Papacy (1309 to 1378 AD). I don't think there could have been some kind of communication, even by epistle, between Gregory Palamas and the Roman Church in such a grave period. Gregory was trying to reform his own Church according to the mystical understanding he had - and that could have been a Divine plan so that through our Eastern Catholic brethren we might be led (as Westeners) to a further understanding of the inner life of God (not an understanding by reason but by a direct mystical approach to the Trinity such as Hesychasm proposes). In case you don't know, even other Catholic saints of the First Millennium expressed precisely the same opinions. St. Basil wrote thus: "the energies are numerous and the essence of God simple and what we know when we say God is in fact His energies. We do not pressure to approach His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach". Basil approved the same thoughts of Gregory Palamas, he also reaffirmed the simplicity of God's essence, yet he affirmed that we commune in God's energies. I don't see any problem with that, yet you insist in seeing non-existence problems.
Also consider that Pope John Paul II called Gregory Palamas a saint in a conference with both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. Look at the greatly Catholic expressions of faith of this monk:
On the Filioque: "The Spirit of the supreme Word is like a certain kind of love which the Father has for the mysteriously generated Word; and it is that same love that the most beloved Word and Son of the Father has for the one who generated him" which echoes Leo XIII's encyclical on the Paraclete whom he says to be "the divine Goodness and the mutual Love of the Father and the Son". (full reference here
Quote
)
And on the Blessed Virgin, John Paul II stated in a general audience (12th November 1997): "However, there remain some disagreements regarding the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, even if these truths were first expounded by certain Eastern theologians—one need only recall great writers like Gregory Palamas (d. 1359), Nicholas Cabasilas (d. after 1369) and George Scholarios (d. after 1472)." (look here for the entire document http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_12111997_en.html).

Thus all your words against Gregory Palamas are unjust since:
1) Pope John Paul II appreciated Hesychasm as defended by the great monk
2) The same Pope, whose image is in your avatar, called him a saint publicly in a conference (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/stgregorypalamas.shtm)
3) The Roman Pontiff allows honouring him as a saint in the Eastern Catholic Church
4) Gregory's orthodoxy on the matters of the double procession of the Holy Spirit and the doctrines concerning Mary are affirmed on the official site of the Holy See which quotes the words of His Holiness Pope Karol Wojtila
5) The doctrine of uncreated grace has never been sanctioned as dogma nor is it necessarily implied in any infallible document either ex cathedra or in Ecumenical Councils or liturgical texts. The affirmation that the Uncreated Energies deny the doctrine of God's simplicity don't affect Gregory Palamas's theology since many Church Fathers in the past made errors in the words they adopted to express the Catholic Faith (look at st. Clement of Alexandria with his "One Nature of the Incarnate Word") but are nevertheless considered to be orthodox and saint (from a Catholic point of view)
6) Gregory was a saint canonized locally long before the modern canonization process ever existed, nevertheless no need has been shown for the re-canonization of 17 centuries of saints living before this new rule to proclaim saints had been introduced. The fact that His Holiness expressly wanted and authorized that st. Gregory Palamas be honoured in the Eastern Catholic Churches is a ratification of this.
7) There are, as I said, many good reasons why Gregory Palamas had no occasion to enter the Roman Catholic Church - one is the absence of a certain authority of Popes in the period of the Avignon Captivity, and the second is, I must add, the prevalence of anti-mystic approaches to theology then dictated by Scholasticism and Thomist which aren't anymore the basis for Catholic dogmatics or better the Catholic Church allows for different words to be used to express the same truths.

May God lead you to a greater faithfulness to the Magisterium whom you claim to obey as a Roman Catholic.

In Christ,   Alex
1. Palamas explicitly rejected the filioque which the Catholic Church presents as binding dogma.
2. Palamas doctrine of the essence/energies distinction may have gone beyond the teachings of the Fathers.
3. Palamas explicitly rejected communion with the Catholic Church.
This is reason enough to question the oppropriateness of calling Palamas a Saint in the Catholic Church.

Now, the Holy Father may have honored and respected Palamas but that does not make Palamas a saint. In fact, His Holiness, John Paul the II, actually pointed out that there are certain aspects of the Hesychast movement that are incompatible witht the Catholic faith. Finally, just because he allowed some of the Eastern Catholic Churches to commemorate Palamas doesn't mean that Palamas is a saint. Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity and thus, it is possible to question his sainthood.

Reason three, listed above, makes it impossible for him to be a Catholic saint. He may have been a pious Eastern Orthodox man, but that does not mean he is a Catholic saint.
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2010, 02:33:11 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2010, 02:38:04 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2010, 02:40:27 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

While I strongly disagree with his opinions about St. Gregory, "infallibility" of canonizations, and many other things, I respect Papist for his consistency here and his intellectual honesty. I can't say the same about "Orthodox in Communion with Rome."
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2010, 02:42:02 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
weird
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2010, 02:43:00 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
Most faithful Catholics are like me. We see no reason to cannonize non-Catholics. It makes no sense at all.
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2010, 02:50:31 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
Most faithful Catholics are like me. We see no reason to cannonize non-Catholics. It makes no sense at all.
I would appreciate not being cannonized, myself.  Not exactly the way I envision of becoming holy, if you take my meaning. Tongue Cheesy
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2010, 02:53:25 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
weird

Indeed.
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:19 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex

Actually, if one looks at the history of witchcraft in Europe, it was the Protestant countries who were far more likely to indulge in witch trials and burnings at the stake.

And lest we forget, it was ol' Queen Bess who like to burn those Cat'licks.

I'm just saying that your particular demonizing of the medieval Roman Catholic church is quite disingenuous.  
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:59 PM »

Most faithful Catholics are like me.

Lord have mercy!  Cheesy
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2010, 03:11:09 PM »

Most faithful Catholics are like me.

Lord have mercy!  Cheesy
He has had mercy on us. He helps us to live the faith and believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2010, 10:12:24 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.

So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?

HA!  Well played.  Cheesy



The highlighted section refers exactly to the type of condescending attitude that Rome displayed to the "Greek Catholics" in America during St. Alexis Toth's and +Metropolitan Orestes' eras which led to a large scale migration back to Orthodoxy by many who were then "Greek Catholic." ( NB: I am not using the term "Greek Catholic"  as a pejorative, in violation of the forum rules, but rather to distinguish the Carpatho-Rusyn and Lemko groups which came to Orthodoxy from other ethnic Eastern Catholics who did not suffer the same degree of conflict during that era. That nomenclature was prevalent during that historical period.)
When the Greek Catholics came back into union, it was assumed that they were becoming Catholic and not just "Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome".
Well, we all know what happens when you assUme....but then honesty has never been the strong point of the union schemes.  Wonder how the Vatican can wag its finger at Anglican compromise....

There were no 'Greek Catholics' in either the Hungarian or Polish kingdoms prior to the unions of Brest or Uzhorod, so it is historically incorrect to claim "When the Greek Catholics came back into union, it was assumed that they were becoming Catholic and not just "Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome"."  They were  pious Orthodox peoples caught up in the geopolitics of their age. Are you still using Archbishop Ireland's playbook, or is it the one handed to Bishop Takach? Your attitude about the Unia is out of step with the official position of your church as has been developed over the past twenty-five years.

there was no malankara church in India before the ortho unia.
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« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2010, 05:38:50 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
Why is it offensive to question whether the Catholic Church should consider a person who is outside of our communion and even opposed communion with our Church to be a saint.

The Ruthenian Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Catholic Church, and the Melkite Catholic Church have decided to venerate St. Gregory Palamas, and as a good Melkite Catholic I shall assent to the decision of the sui juris Church of which I am a member.
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« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2010, 06:56:02 PM »

I see that the Romanian Greek-Catholic church has St. Gregory Palamas in their calendar, as well.
http://www.greco-catolic.ro/calendar.asp?luna=02
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« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2010, 03:44:24 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.


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« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2010, 03:54:53 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
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« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2010, 04:03:18 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
i dont support "hate christianity" or the  Westboro Baptist Church type of idealogy.  yes. his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint.  ^_^
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« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
...  his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint... i dont support "hate christianity" 

 If you say so.  Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2010, 04:14:06 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
...  his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint... i dont support "hate christianity" 

 If you say so.  Smiley
ugh.  Roll Eyes

the male ego.
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« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2010, 04:27:54 PM »


ugh.  Roll Eyes

the male ego.

LOL! I think I just got served!  Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2010, 01:42:03 PM »

Personally, I believe the text are very interesting and I interpret them as Stigmata. St. Paul was Crucified and so also bore the wounds of Christ... I see it the Deacon sees it.

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.
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« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2010, 08:05:12 AM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?
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« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2010, 01:40:22 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.

Really? Are all these days of fasting supposed to be fun? Are all the monks and hermits having a big party that none of us knows about?
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"A riddle or the cricket's cry
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