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Author Topic: St. Gregory Palamas and Stigmata?  (Read 15673 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« on: March 02, 2010, 09:49:51 AM »

My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

You, and the authors of your quoted article, are not familiar with the Synaxarion entry for St. Gregory Palamas then?

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/synaxarion/6-gregorypalamas.html

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 10:25:02 AM »

My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

You, and the authors of your quoted article, are not familiar with the Synaxarion entry for St. Gregory Palamas then?

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/synaxarion/6-gregorypalamas.html

(Emphasis added by me)

I don't see how that is equivalent to stigmata?

No mention of it in these links:

St. Gregory Palamas - OCA
St. Gregory Palamas - GOA
St. Gregory Palamas - Antiochian Archdiocese
St. Gregory Palamas - OrthodoxWiki
St. Gregory Palamas - AbbaMoses.com
St. Gregory Palamas - Monachos.net
St. Gregory Palamas Monastery

Not even Wikipedia mentions it...
Nor Catholic Online...

I don't really see how you think your argument that St. Gregory Palamas had stigmata has any legs at all... Maybe in the Byzantine Catholic Church, but certainly not in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

It seems to me that the phrase you quoted is simply just a figure of speech. He suffered for Christ and bore his Cross, thus he figuratively (and literally through his sufferings) "bore the wounds of Christ". We aren't to think of this literally, that he literally had scars on his wrists (or hands), a scar on his side and scars on his back... I would argue that any suffering of martyrdom or torture for Christ is bearing the Cross with him.

These people that suffered for Christ bore his wounds much more powerfully and truthfully than anyone who claims to have had a vision and claims they now wear the scars Christ wore....

The Most Holy Catholic Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East, founded by the Apostles Peter, Thomas, and the Disciplers Mar Mari and Addai, with jurisdiction over the entire East (confirmed numerous times by opposing patriarchs, including the papacy in 1288 via sacred bull of Nicholas IV);
btw, we have no interest in what the pope of Rome has to say after they adopted the filioque.

And Antioch, according to the Ecumenical Fathers, has jurisdiction over all the East.


Quote
the holy church which is upholder of Syriac Christianity

That would be the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
and the sacred language of Aramaic

Which the Assyrians don't speak.  Aramaic is only spoken by Melkites/EO and Maronites. And oddly enough, the Muslims of Malula.

Quote
who's Holy script was used by the Holy Prophets
No, they used the (Paleo-)Hebrew script (Ragatz)

Quote
and our Lord the Messiah

Not exactly.  He used the Aramaic alphabet and the Assyrians use the derived Eastern Syriac script.

Quote
to express the Divine Will  affirms with the full might of its Apostolic Succession,

Having left the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church after the Third Council, not exactly.

Quote
being the only Church outside the Roman sphere,
Romania? Moravia (Czech and Slovak lands)? Georgia? Armenia? Ethiopia? India? Yemen? Nubia?

Quote
that differences in communion between the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church are merely political and that both are the two lungs of the Western Church in their respective cultural perspectives.

Since it is neither Orthodox nor in submission to the Vatican, how is it in the position to say that?
(Emphasis added by me)

Ditto what ialmisry said... The Antiochian Church is the true Church of the East. And the Eastern Orthodox Church is not "the other lung", we are the body of Christ (singular), we are the only true Church.



As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 10:44:08 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 10:53:55 AM »

In other words, I got caught with my foot in my mouth so I'll pretend the the Synaxarion means something other than what it says.  Read the entire text.  It already comments on his stuggles and sufferings.  It clearly states he was adorned with the wounds of Christ.  Quite a specific phrase not used of other confessors.  Spin it how you want, it simply reveals how some Orthodox, especially converts from Protestantism, will blindly take up any polemic against Catholics even if unfounded and poorly researched. 
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 10:58:33 AM »

In other words, I got caught with my foot in my mouth so I'll pretend the the Synaxarion means something other than what it says.  Read the entire text.  It already comments on his stuggles and sufferings.  It clearly states he was adorned with the wounds of Christ.  Quite a specific phrase not used of other confessors.  Spin it how you want, it simply reveals how some Orthodox, especially converts from Protestantism, will blindly take up any polemic against Catholics even if unfounded and poorly researched.  

Or it shows how your background deludes your way of thinking when reading texts. I don't mean to be harsh, but coming from a western background, I know that simply being a Protestant or Catholic deludes your way of thinking. You don't really fully understand texts, and you often don't understand the full meaning behind something. Your background influences your way of thinking.

If you have a background of believing in stigmata, then sure, you are going to immediately think that is referencing stigmata. But I would say Orthodox would argue otherwise and would affirm that St. Gregory Palamas did not have stigmata.

My friend, I did research it (albeit quickly), and I refuse to use any source from Catholics, whether they be Latin Rite Catholics or Byzantine Rite Catholics. That is just a no-brainer. It's not a prejudice I have, but Orthodoxy is simply the truth, and I will trust our sources over others anytime.

I'm sorry for not being very politically correct in my approach, but I cannot just sit here and let people outside of Orthodoxy try to tell us what Orthodoxy & the truth is. I don't hate anything non-Orthodox, but I cannot sit here and pretend to believe that those traditions are equally as valid as ours. That would simply be degrading to Orthodoxy and I can't slander our Church like that.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 11:03:47 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 11:20:33 AM »

Just so we know the context, here is the full paragraph containing the quote that Deacon Lance cited:

Quote
Then the great saint was freed by the lovers of Christ [from the Agarians who kidnapped him], and this bloodless martyr returned once more in joy to his flock. In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul. Let us describe him; these were his characteristics. Along with his excellence he was meek and humble. (We do not speak here of God and divine matters, for he was quite a defender of these.) He did not remember evil and was good-natured, desiring to return good for evil. He never quarreled. He was always patient and magnanimous in the face of adversity. He was above vanity and sensuality. He was always temperate and not extravagant in all personal necessities, and for all that time he was not ill. He endured quietly and silently, always graciously, to the limits of what was done to him, so that all would see him as reasonable, attentive and keen witted. And consequently he never allowed his eyes to be void of tears, but sympathized with a flow of tears.

You would think that if "the wounds of Christ" meant something like physical stigmata, the hagiographer would go into greater detail about it- how and when St. Gregory received them, how they never healed but never were infected, etc., as this phenomenon would be truly exceptional in the history of the Orthodox Church.

Instead, the writer goes on immediately to describe, in the same paragraph, "his characteristics": he was meek and humble, good-natured, never quarreling, patient and magnanimous, longsuffering, temperate, etc. He always sympathized with a flow of tears. An intuitive reading of the text, in my opinion, would suggest that these characteristics are the "wounds" the writer speaks of.

In short, it seems to me that Deacon Lance is guilty here of some rather egregious proof-texting.



MODERATION:  The rule dictating that we are to use proper titles when referring to or speaking to clergy on this forum also applies to our relations with non-Orthodox clergy, such as our Byzantine Catholic Deacon Lance.  -PtA
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 11:27:41 AM »

Just so we know the context, here is the full paragraph containing the quote that Lance cited:

Quote
Then the great saint was freed by the lovers of Christ [from the Agarians who kidnapped him], and this bloodless martyr returned once more in joy to his flock. In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul. Let us describe him; these were his characteristics. Along with his excellence he was meek and humble. (We do not speak here of God and divine matters, for he was quite a defender of these.) He did not remember evil and was good-natured, desiring to return good for evil. He never quarreled. He was always patient and magnanimous in the face of adversity. He was above vanity and sensuality. He was always temperate and not extravagant in all personal necessities, and for all that time he was not ill. He endured quietly and silently, always graciously, to the limits of what was done to him, so that all would see him as reasonable, attentive and keen witted. And consequently he never allowed his eyes to be void of tears, but sympathized with a flow of tears.

You would think that if "the wounds of Christ" meant something like physical stigmata, the hagiographer would go into greater detail about it- how and when St. Gregory received them, how they never healed but never were infected, etc., as this phenomenon would be truly exceptional in the history of the Orthodox Church.

Instead, the writer goes on immediately to describe, in the same paragraph, "his characteristics": he was meek and humble, good-natured, never quarreling, patient and magnanimous, longsuffering, temperate, etc. He always sympathized with a flow of tears. An intuitive reading of the text, in my opinion, would suggest that these characteristics are the "wounds" the writer speaks of.

In short, it seems to me that Lance is guilty here of some rather egregious proof-texting.


So his qualities are his wounds?  Now that is tortured interpretation if ever I saw one. 

I also believe it is the policy of this forum to use the titles of clergy when addressing them.  If you cannot extend that courtesy to me because I am Byzantine Catholic, please don't address me at all.
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 11:32:19 AM »

In other words, I got caught with my foot in my mouth so I'll pretend the the Synaxarion means something other than what it says.  Read the entire text.  It already comments on his stuggles and sufferings.  It clearly states he was adorned with the wounds of Christ.  Quite a specific phrase not used of other confessors.  Spin it how you want, it simply reveals how some Orthodox, especially converts from Protestantism, will blindly take up any polemic against Catholics even if unfounded and poorly researched. 
If he had stigmata, given the Vatican's obsession with this sort of thing, I'm sure it would have come up by now.  At the very least, we should expect icon depicting it.

Somewhere here I posted discussions I'd have on CAF, on the submitted mindset: a Church submits to the Vatican without a change in its texts (at least at first) except a commemoration of the pope of Rome.  People go on as nothing has happened.  In time their best and brightest go off to to the Vatican for training, pilgrimage, whatever.  There they are confronted with what the big mama really teaches, i.e. Latin theology including all sorts of things like Immmaculate Conception etc. and then their inferiority complex (fed of course by Latinizers) compels them to search out to seek proof that their Church has believed the same from time immorial.  Immaculate Conception is read into all sorts of things that the Orthodox (EO or OO, or for that matter the Nestorians) ever dreamt of: their ancestors sang those hymns and read those texts with the Immaculate Conception never entering their mind, and the Orthodox (and Assyrians) continue to do so.  Those in submission to the Vatican largely did so too, until 1850 (more like 1870). But now those who submitted to the Vatican accuse the Orthodox of having changed their theology just out of spite of the Supreme Pontiff. "Look! It's right there....!" where of course it never was.  That is, until the submitters needed to read it into there.  I already see the process gearing up for Coredemptrix.

I've never heard of an Orthodox saint bearing stigmata as far as I now recall.  I'll agree its possible, but I'm going to have more proof than a dogmatic (with Vatican view) interpretation of a vague text.
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 11:33:53 AM »

So his qualities are his wounds?  Now that is tortured interpretation if ever I saw one. 

You must have a really hard time reading poetry, not to mention patristic exegeses. "So the unburnt bush is represents the Theotokos? Talk about a tortured interpretation!"
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 11:34:58 AM »

In other words, I got caught with my foot in my mouth so I'll pretend the the Synaxarion means something other than what it says.  Read the entire text.  It already comments on his stuggles and sufferings.  It clearly states he was adorned with the wounds of Christ.  Quite a specific phrase not used of other confessors.  Spin it how you want, it simply reveals how some Orthodox, especially converts from Protestantism, will blindly take up any polemic against Catholics even if unfounded and poorly researched.  

Or it shows how your background deludes your way of thinking when reading texts. I don't mean to be harsh, but coming from a western background, I know that simply being a Protestant or Catholic deludes your way of thinking. You don't really fully understand texts, and you often don't understand the full meaning behind something. Your background influences your way of thinking.

If you have a background of believing in stigmata, then sure, you are going to immediately think that is referencing stigmata. But I would say Orthodox would argue otherwise and would affirm that St. Gregory Palamas did not have stigmata.

My friend, I did research it (albeit quickly), and I refuse to use any source from Catholics, whether they be Latin Rite Catholics or Byzantine Rite Catholics. That is just a no-brainer. It's not a prejudice I have, but Orthodoxy is simply the truth, and I will trust our sources over others anytime.

I'm sorry for not being very politically correct in my approach, but I cannot just sit here and let people outside of Orthodoxy try to tell us what Orthodoxy & the truth is. I don't hate anything non-Orthodox, but I cannot sit here and pretend to believe that those traditions are equally as valid as ours. That would simply be degrading to Orthodoxy and I can't slander our Church like that.

Please don't presume to know what I understand.  I spend a great deal of my time explaining and defending Eastern theology to Latin Catholics.  Being Catholic I am predisposed into accepting the possibilty that stigmata are a genuine gift.  On the otherhand, you must admit being Orthodox predisposes you to discounting it.  Please note I also did not ask you to use or trust any Catholic source.  I referenced an Orthodox liturgical  book.
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 11:39:30 AM »

So his qualities are his wounds?  Now that is tortured interpretation if ever I saw one. 

You must have a really hard time reading poetry, not to mention patristic exegeses. "So the unburnt bush is represents the Theotokos? Talk about a tortured interpretation!"

Liturgical prose is full of metaphor and one expects to find it there.  The Synaxarion is a collection of biographies, not liturgical poetry. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 11:40:17 AM »

Just so we know the context, here is the full paragraph containing the quote that Lance cited:

Quote
Then the great saint was freed by the lovers of Christ [from the Agarians who kidnapped him], and this bloodless martyr returned once more in joy to his flock. In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul. Let us describe him; these were his characteristics. Along with his excellence he was meek and humble. (We do not speak here of God and divine matters, for he was quite a defender of these.) He did not remember evil and was good-natured, desiring to return good for evil. He never quarreled. He was always patient and magnanimous in the face of adversity. He was above vanity and sensuality. He was always temperate and not extravagant in all personal necessities, and for all that time he was not ill. He endured quietly and silently, always graciously, to the limits of what was done to him, so that all would see him as reasonable, attentive and keen witted. And consequently he never allowed his eyes to be void of tears, but sympathized with a flow of tears.
I don't recall St. Paul being classed as having stigmata. In fact, the "Catholic Encyclopedia" lists their saints, and they are all post Schism (which in and of itself makes me suspect).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14294b.htm

I think the reference to St. Paul makes it decisive that we are talking about something else.  If we compare the original Greek of the hymn and the original of Colossians 1:24, we might make that conclusive.
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 11:42:52 AM »

So his qualities are his wounds?  Now that is tortured interpretation if ever I saw one. 

You must have a really hard time reading poetry, not to mention patristic exegeses. "So the unburnt bush is represents the Theotokos? Talk about a tortured interpretation!"

Liturgical prose is full of metaphor and one expects to find it there.  The Synaxarion is a collection of biographies, not liturgical poetry. 
LOL.  Byzantine prose is anything but straightforward prose.
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 11:54:24 AM »

Did I say it was?
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 07:08:45 PM »

Did I say it was?

You seem to be implying that metaphors are out of place in prose, and only belong in poetry.
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 08:03:50 PM »

My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

You, and the authors of your quoted article, are not familiar with the Synaxarion entry for St. Gregory Palamas then?

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/synaxarion/6-gregorypalamas.html

(Emphasis added by me)

I don't see how that is equivalent to stigmata?

No mention of it in these links:

St. Gregory Palamas - OCA
St. Gregory Palamas - GOA
St. Gregory Palamas - Antiochian Archdiocese
St. Gregory Palamas - OrthodoxWiki
St. Gregory Palamas - AbbaMoses.com
St. Gregory Palamas - Monachos.net
St. Gregory Palamas Monastery

Not even Wikipedia mentions it...
Nor Catholic Online...

I don't really see how you think your argument that St. Gregory Palamas had stigmata has any legs at all... Maybe in the Byzantine Catholic Church, but certainly not in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

It seems to me that the phrase you quoted is simply just a figure of speech. He suffered for Christ and bore his Cross, thus he figuratively (and literally through his sufferings) "bore the wounds of Christ". We aren't to think of this literally, that he literally had scars on his wrists (or hands), a scar on his side and scars on his back... I would argue that any suffering of martyrdom or torture for Christ is bearing the Cross with him.

These people that suffered for Christ bore his wounds much more powerfully and truthfully than anyone who claims to have had a vision and claims they now wear the scars Christ wore....

The Most Holy Catholic Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East, founded by the Apostles Peter, Thomas, and the Disciplers Mar Mari and Addai, with jurisdiction over the entire East (confirmed numerous times by opposing patriarchs, including the papacy in 1288 via sacred bull of Nicholas IV);
btw, we have no interest in what the pope of Rome has to say after they adopted the filioque.

And Antioch, according to the Ecumenical Fathers, has jurisdiction over all the East.


Quote
the holy church which is upholder of Syriac Christianity

That would be the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch.

Quote
and the sacred language of Aramaic

Which the Assyrians don't speak.  Aramaic is only spoken by Melkites/EO and Maronites. And oddly enough, the Muslims of Malula.

Quote
who's Holy script was used by the Holy Prophets
No, they used the (Paleo-)Hebrew script (Ragatz)

Quote
and our Lord the Messiah

Not exactly.  He used the Aramaic alphabet and the Assyrians use the derived Eastern Syriac script.

Quote
to express the Divine Will  affirms with the full might of its Apostolic Succession,

Having left the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church after the Third Council, not exactly.

Quote
being the only Church outside the Roman sphere,
Romania? Moravia (Czech and Slovak lands)? Georgia? Armenia? Ethiopia? India? Yemen? Nubia?

Quote
that differences in communion between the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic Church are merely political and that both are the two lungs of the Western Church in their respective cultural perspectives.

Since it is neither Orthodox nor in submission to the Vatican, how is it in the position to say that?
(Emphasis added by me)

Ditto what ialmisry said... The Antiochian Church is the true Church of the East. And the Eastern Orthodox Church is not "the other lung", we are the body of Christ (singular), we are the only true Church.



As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.

The Antiochian Church are Byzantine appointees. They are to Antioch what Byzantine Catholicism is to Constantinople.Having a rival patriarch appoint you does not give you jurisdiction over that area.
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 08:05:12 PM »

Deacon Lance's interpretation of the synaxarion is plausible, but it is not the only interpretation that can be given to the text.
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 08:14:57 PM »

Apart from Padre Pio and Francis of Assisi, the stigmata seems to be something for women: 

Lutgarde of Aywieres, Elizabeth the Good, Lydwine of Schiedam,
Rita of Cascia, Lucy of Narni, Passitea Crogi, Veronica Giuliani,
Osanna of Mantua, Gemma Galgani, Gertrude Van Oosten,
Therese Neumann.
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 08:37:47 PM »

Deacon Lance's interpretation of the synaxarion is plausible, but it is not the only interpretation that can be given to the text.
I am suprised to see you respond in this way.
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 10:15:36 PM »

*Edit*
Eh, it's not worth arguing...
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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 10:29:35 PM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assis? How unfair and sectarian is that?
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« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 11:04:48 PM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?

What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 12:49:09 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?

What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?

synaxarion.
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 01:02:14 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?

What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?

synaxarion.

The Synaxarion says:

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/synaxarion/6-gregorypalamas.html

Notice that phrase "according to Paul."

Anybody here want to affirm beyond question that Paul meant bleeding hands and feet, bleeding left chest and bleeding forehead and all around your head and a back drenched in blood from scourging?
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 01:16:48 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?

What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?

synaxarion.

The Synaxarion says:

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/synaxarion/6-gregorypalamas.html

Notice that phrase "according to Paul."

Anybody here want to affirm beyond question that Paul meant bleeding hands and feet, bleeding left chest and bleeding forehead and all around your head and a back drenched in blood from scourging?

"thorn in the flesh" = possible stigmata?
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2010, 01:36:33 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?
What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?
synaxarion.

 Roll Eyes Great.  Thanks for that helpful post.  We're arguing over the interpretation of the Synaxarion, and only Latins and U-word people have offered the interpretation of St. Gregory having the stigmata.

I honestly don't even see why this would be appealing to Latins, because in their own tradition it is a sign of great sanctity.  Their church takes issue with many of St. Gregory's assertions, so wouldn't this only seem to support his theological formulations in their eyes?
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 01:37:57 AM »

Galatians 6:12-17
"As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. but God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." -from the OSB
(Emphasis mine)

Commentary from the OSB:
"Paul is no hypocrite or coward. He has persevered through much for what he is teaching, and he bears in his body the marks to prove it."

2 Corinthians 12:7-10
"And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." - From the OSB
(Emphasis Mine)

Commentary from the OSB:
"Unlike his opponents, who publicly proclaimed their own greatness in their mystical experiences, Paul sees his thorn in the flesh as given to him precisely so he might not be exalted. What was this thorn? Perhaps a chronic physical problem, or deluded Christian leaders, or heard-hearted Israelites. Nevertheless, for Paul, his weakness, not his mystical experiences, is the means of the power of Christ remaining in him."

For St. John Chrysostom's take on 2 Corinthians 12:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.v.xxvi.html
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 01:39:23 AM »

"thorn in the flesh" = possible stigmata?

So now you've gone from this being definitively true in reference to the aforementioned relationship between St. Gregory and St. Paul to it being "possible"?
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 01:42:49 AM »

OSB

I find most of this commentary irrelevant and redundant.  But then again, I believe I am discovering that I am not a huge fan of commentary.  I tend to like to let the primary source speak for itself when it comes to religious texts.  Don't get me wrong, I like commentary in historical narratives, as history is commentary, but I hate interrupting a reading with frequent footnotes.
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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 01:45:54 AM »

OSB

I find most of this commentary irrelevant and redundant.  But then again, I believe I am discovering that I am not a huge fan of commentary.  I tend to like to let the primary source speak for itself when it comes to religious texts.  Don't get me wrong, I like commentary in historical narratives, as history is commentary, but I hate interrupting a reading with frequent footnotes.

Whenever I do read the scriptures (which sadly, is not very often for me anymore), I use it mainly as a quick way to tell me what it means and what I'm to believe. I don't ever have time to look up what the Church Fathers & Saints say about passages, so I have to use the OSB commentary. I wouldn't say it's the best, but for me it's sufficient most of the time.
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« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2010, 02:36:00 AM »

OSB

I find most of this commentary irrelevant and redundant.  But then again, I believe I am discovering that I am not a huge fan of commentary.  I tend to like to let the primary source speak for itself when it comes to religious texts.  Don't get me wrong, I like commentary in historical narratives, as history is commentary, but I hate interrupting a reading with frequent footnotes.

OK, so the OC agrees its a literal mark, like a stigmata. Grin
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« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2010, 04:01:33 AM »

OSB

I find most of this commentary irrelevant and redundant.  But then again, I believe I am discovering that I am not a huge fan of commentary.  I tend to like to let the primary source speak for itself when it comes to religious texts.  Don't get me wrong, I like commentary in historical narratives, as history is commentary, but I hate interrupting a reading with frequent footnotes.

OK, so the OC agrees its a literal mark, like a stigmata. Grin
Where do you get this? Huh
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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2010, 10:32:08 AM »


Lenten Synaxarion states:

Then the great saint was freed by the lovers of Christ, and this bloodless martyr returned once more in joy to his flock. In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul.

There is the use of the word "bloodless".  Isn't stigmata supposed to bleed?  How then can he be a "bloodless" martyr? 

I honestly do not believe they are referring to bleeding wounds in this case.
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2010, 10:35:01 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?
What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?
synaxarion.

 Roll Eyes Great.  Thanks for that helpful post.  We're arguing over the interpretation of the Synaxarion, and only Latins and U-word people have offered the interpretation of St. Gregory having the stigmata.

I honestly don't even see why this would be appealing to Latins, because in their own tradition it is a sign of great sanctity.  Their church takes issue with many of St. Gregory's assertions, so wouldn't this only seem to support his theological formulations in their eyes?
I don't know if there are any "Latins" in this thread who find this idea appealing. I don't believe that Gregory Palamas is a saint by any means and, therefore, I doubt that he could have had the Stigmata.
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2010, 11:02:04 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?
What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?
synaxarion.

 Roll Eyes Great.  Thanks for that helpful post.  We're arguing over the interpretation of the Synaxarion, and only Latins and U-word people have offered the interpretation of St. Gregory having the stigmata.

I honestly don't even see why this would be appealing to Latins, because in their own tradition it is a sign of great sanctity.  Their church takes issue with many of St. Gregory's assertions, so wouldn't this only seem to support his theological formulations in their eyes?
I don't know if there are any "Latins" in this thread who find this idea appealing. I don't believe that Gregory Palamas is a saint by any means and, therefore, I doubt that he could have had the Stigmata.
You are aware that your Vatican disagrees with you, no?
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2010, 11:06:21 AM »

So Gregory of Palamas had stigmata? And you guys still criticise Francis of Assisi? How unfair and sectarian is that?
What Orthodox poster here confessed that St. Gregory had stigmata?
synaxarion.

 Roll Eyes Great.  Thanks for that helpful post.  We're arguing over the interpretation of the Synaxarion, and only Latins and U-word people have offered the interpretation of St. Gregory having the stigmata.

I honestly don't even see why this would be appealing to Latins, because in their own tradition it is a sign of great sanctity.  Their church takes issue with many of St. Gregory's assertions, so wouldn't this only seem to support his theological formulations in their eyes?
I don't know if there are any "Latins" in this thread who find this idea appealing. I don't believe that Gregory Palamas is a saint by any means and, therefore, I doubt that he could have had the Stigmata.
You are aware that your Vatican disagrees with you, no?
I don't think that that is certain.
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 11:59:45 AM »

Papist,

How many times are we going to go over this?  St. Gregory Palamas was restored to the Rome approved and published Greek Catholic liturgical books.  If you are looking for a better endorsement I invite you to write Rome.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2010, 12:17:31 PM »


Lenten Synaxarion states:

Then the great saint was freed by the lovers of Christ, and this bloodless martyr returned once more in joy to his flock. In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul.

There is the use of the word "bloodless".  Isn't stigmata supposed to bleed?  How then can he be a "bloodless" martyr? 

I honestly do not believe they are referring to bleeding wounds in this case.


i think the bloodless aspect was referring to the type of his persecution as opposed to being persecuted in a bloody manner, such as flogging or being fed to the lions.

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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2010, 12:32:41 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2010, 12:56:14 PM »

Papist,

How many times are we going to go over this?  St. Gregory Palamas was restored to the Rome approved and published Greek Catholic liturgical books.  If you are looking for a better endorsement I invite you to write Rome.

Fr. Deacon Lance
How many times must we go over this, this decision of Rome was not on the same level as a cannonization. If Gregory Palamas had gone through the cannonization process, then I would agree that the matter is no longer up for debate but he has not. Therefore, I am free to question the matter. Reasons why I reject the sainthood of Palamas:
1. He rejected certain aspects of the Catholic faith.
2. He refused to enter into communion with the Catholic Church.
3. Some of his teachings are incompatible with the Catholic faith.


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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2010, 12:56:51 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 01:47:11 PM »


i think the bloodless aspect was referring to the type of his persecution as opposed to being persecuted in a bloody manner, such as flogging or being fed to the lions.


Smiley

Yeah, I know...but, the line was getting interpreted so literally, that I couldn't resist.  Sorry.
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 02:06:52 PM »


i think the bloodless aspect was referring to the type of his persecution as opposed to being persecuted in a bloody manner, such as flogging or being fed to the lions.


Smiley

Yeah, I know...but, the line was getting interpreted so literally, that I couldn't resist.  Sorry.


No need to apologize, my dear Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 02:08:11 PM »

And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process

The official recognition of saints grows from the consensus of the church.
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2010, 02:22:05 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

I don't mean to be uncharitable, but your statement is a great example of the Latin mindset towards the Eastern Catholic Churches that led many of us and our families to return to the Orthodox Church. Like it or not, your thinking on this subject is contrary to the teachings of your Church, post-Vatican 2 for sure.
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2010, 02:55:39 PM »

And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process

The official recognition of saints grows from the consensus of the church.
 Wink
I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2010, 02:55:59 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

I don't mean to be uncharitable, but your statement is a great example of the Latin mindset towards the Eastern Catholic Churches that led many of us and our families to return to the Orthodox Church. Like it or not, your thinking on this subject is contrary to the teachings of your Church, post-Vatican 2 for sure.
No its not.
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2010, 03:42:07 PM »

Papist,
Pope John Paul II wasn't of your same opinion. What you consider to be a great contradiction between Palamite (Hesychast) theology and Thomistic theology wasn't see as a contradiction but as a difference of language by His Holiness during an Angelus speech (11th August 1996). Here's the full text.

Quote
EASTERN THEOLOGY HAS ENRICHED THE WHOLE CHURCH
Pope John Paul II
Angelus 11 August 1996

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. Continuing my reflection on Eastern Christianity, today I would like to focus attention on the development of Eastern theology, which, even in the centuries that followed the age of the Fathers and the sad division with the Apostolic See, led to profound and stimulating perspectives at which the whole Church looks with interest. Although there is still disagreement on this point or that, we must not forget that what unites us is greater than what divides us.

An important doctrinal development occurred between the eighth and ninth centuries after the "iconoclast" crisis unleashed by several Byzantine emperors, who decided radically to suppress the veneration of sacred images. Many were forced to suffer for resisting this absurd imposition. St John Damascene and St Theodore the Studite come to mind in particular. The victorious outcome of their resistance proved decisive not only for devotion and sacred art, but also for a deeper understanding of the mystery of the Incarnation. Indeed, in the final analysis the defense of images was based on the fact that God truly became man in Jesus of Nazareth. It is therefore legitimate for the artist to endeavour to portray his face, not only with the aid of his talent, but especially by interior docility to God's Spirit. The images refer to the Mystery that surpasses them, and they help us feel its presence in our life.

2. The hesychast controversy marked another distinctive moment in Eastern theology. In the East, hesychasm means a method of prayer characterized by a deep tranquillity of the spirit, which is engaged in constant contemplation of God by invoking the name of Jesus. There was no lack of tension with the Catholic viewpoint on certain aspects of this practice. However, we should acknowledge the good intentions which guided the defense of this spiritual method, that is, to emphasize the concrete possibility that man is given to unite himself with the Triune God in the intimacy of his heart, in that deep union of grace which Eastern theology likes to describe with the particularly powerful term of "theosis", "divinization".

Precisely in this regard Eastern spirituality has amassed a very rich experience which was vigorously presented in the famous collection of texts significantly entitled Philokalia (love of beauty") and gathered by Nicodemus the Hagiorite at the end of the 18th century. Down the centuries until our day, Eastern theological reflection has undergone interesting developments, not only in the classical areas of the Byzantine and Russian tradition, but also in the Orthodox communities scattered throughout the world. One need only recall, among the many studies worthy of mention, the Theology of Beauty elaborated by Pavel Nikolaievich Evdokimov, which is based on the Eastern art of the icon, and the study of the doctrine of "divinization" by the Orthodox scholar, Loth Borovine.

How many things we have in common! It is time for Catholics and Orthodox to make an extra effort to understand each other better and to recognize with the renewed wonder of brotherhood what the Spirit is accomplishing in their respective traditions towards a new Christian springtime.

Now, the Philokalia (which the Pope considered to be an amass of "very rich experience") contains the writings of st. Gregory Palamas. Gregory committed errors as any other saint, which means nothing on the personal sainthood of his Christian conduct. You could consider him as a "servant of God" or a "venerable" but you can't say he was an heretic: do you think a Pope would allow the veneration of an heretic? Have you ever seen somebody honour Luther or Arius in the Catholic Church?

Also, if we look at the Catholic Faith as a parameter, don't you see that even st. Thomas Aquinas was heretic as he denied Mary was Immaculate since her conception? Also, where is it written that the Roman Catholic Church condemns hesychasm as heresy or that created grace is a DOGMA of the Catholic Church? Don't you know that some 20 million Catholics worldwide (about 2% of all Catholics) belong to the Eastern traditions basing themselves also on the hesychast devotion which was defended by Palamas?

The truth is that you must understand that Roman primacy doesn't mean Latin primacy. Latinity is only the majority section of the Catholic Church, but not its entirety, you like it or not. And this happens under the legitimation of infallible Papal authority.

In Christ,   Alex

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2010, 03:44:23 PM »

To answer to the OP, I think that Gregory Palamas may have had stigmata, and that the Synaxarion alludes to them. Anyway, that doesn't mean anything to prove one's sainthood, and a person without stigmata may be more saint then one without them... in other words, had Gregory Palamas stigmata or not, it is truly a useless matter.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2010, 04:22:55 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2010, 04:57:13 PM »

The truth is that you must understand that Roman primacy doesn't mean Latin primacy. Latinity is only the majority section of the Catholic Church, but not its entirety, you like it or not. And this happens under the legitimation of infallible Papal authority.

All of this goes to show, not that it makes sense to venerate St. Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, but that the Catholic Church is deeply incoherent and approaching relativism. The "infallible Papal authority" you cite is in fact openly questioned by the schizophrenic "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  Papist's arguments against venerating St. Gregory in the RCC are sound; the trouble is, sound logic went out from the RCC a long time ago.
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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2010, 05:51:25 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2010, 06:19:44 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf

More to the point, as has been discussed before, the Melkites had removed St. Gregory from the calendar and he has been explicitely restored.

Btw, glad to see you. May your Lent be blessed.
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2010, 07:17:56 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
Nope. There is such absolute consent on the Holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that it would be silly to doubt her. But a man like Palamas who even rejected the idea of communion with the Catholic Church, well that is different matter altogether.

And yes, I know when the process of cannonization was established. What is your point?
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« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2010, 07:20:16 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.

So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?

HA!  Well played.  Cheesy
The purpose of the cannonization process is so that we can all KNOW which saints are appropriate for veneration rather than guess. We do have a concept of universiality in the Catholic Church. I know that such a concept is not present in your Church. Its a different ecclesiology.
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2010, 07:34:37 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2010, 08:00:22 PM »

I don't think that that is certain.

In the Melkite and UGCC, his commemoration as a Saint has been liturgically restored to the second Sunday of the Great Fast. The Anthologies are  published and approved in Rome.
And yet he has not gone through the cannonization process, so this can still be questioned.

Your canonization process wasn't set up and reserved to the Vatican until 1634, Urban VII's bull.  That's well after St. Gregory and the alleged union of Florence.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
Nope. There is such absolute consent on the Holiness of the Blessed Virgin Mary that it would be silly to doubt her. But a man like Palamas who even rejected the idea of communion with the Catholic Church, well that is different matter altogether.

You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.


Quote
And yes, I know when the process of cannonization was established. What is your point?
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2010, 08:08:46 PM »



You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.
I mean communion with the Catholic Church. Please dont' tell me what I mean because you are almost always wrong about that.
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
And yet he was never officially cannonized so his sainthood can be questioned. Other saints have been removed from our Calander; I think its Gregory's turn.
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2010, 08:36:29 PM »



You mean submission to the Ultramontanist Vatican. Yes, indeed, that is a different matter altogether from the idea of communion wiht the Catholic Church.
I mean communion with the Catholic Church. Please dont' tell me what I mean because you are almost always wrong about that.
All the hagiographies etc produced by the Vatican that I have seen lump the "Pre-Congregation" saints together.  St. Gregory is among them.
And yet he was never officially cannonized so his sainthood can be questioned. Other saints have been removed from our Calander; I think its Gregory's turn.
Do Orthodoxy the favor and convince HH B XVI. It can become another Cum Data Fuerit.
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2010, 08:48:42 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.
So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.
The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?
HA!  Well played.  Cheesy
The purpose of the cannonization process is so that we can all KNOW which saints are appropriate for veneration rather than guess. We do have a concept of universality in the Catholic Church. I know that such a concept is not present in your Church. Its a different ecclesiology.

Please read what I wrote again.  You're saying that the canonization process of your particular churches is inferior to the way that the Vatican does it, and if they don't get Rome's stamp of approval, their own saints are demoted to the status of an optional saint, which is no real confirmed saint at all.  So we go from the notion of particular churches with equal dignity to the Roman See to the reality that they are inferior tributaries which ultimately have to flow back West for any real authority to their claims.  This is why Eastern Vaticanism isn't a legitimate option.  At the end of the day, they're just the bastard kids on the back porch.
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2010, 10:38:10 PM »

Let me just make it clear that I am not some sort of "stigmata aficionado" just that I have seen a case of stigmata so I know it is something which actually happens. Now if it is demonic, Holy, or neither but something else (ie: some sort of divine thing placed on people for purposes unknown to us) I have no idea.
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2010, 04:36:26 AM »

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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2010, 01:12:16 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2010, 01:14:18 PM »

Btw, glad to see you. May your Lent be blessed.
May God also bless you greatly as you fast in preparation for holy Pascha.
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »

A little information for you Papist:
there was no Pope in Rome at the time of Gregory Palamas. That was the period of the Avignon Papacy (1309 to 1378 AD). I don't think there could have been some kind of communication, even by epistle, between Gregory Palamas and the Roman Church in such a grave period. Gregory was trying to reform his own Church according to the mystical understanding he had - and that could have been a Divine plan so that through our Eastern Catholic brethren we might be led (as Westeners) to a further understanding of the inner life of God (not an understanding by reason but by a direct mystical approach to the Trinity such as Hesychasm proposes). In case you don't know, even other Catholic saints of the First Millennium expressed precisely the same opinions. St. Basil wrote thus: "the energies are numerous and the essence of God simple and what we know when we say God is in fact His energies. We do not pressure to approach His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach". Basil approved the same thoughts of Gregory Palamas, he also reaffirmed the simplicity of God's essence, yet he affirmed that we commune in God's energies. I don't see any problem with that, yet you insist in seeing non-existence problems.
Also consider that Pope John Paul II called Gregory Palamas a saint in a conference with both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. Look at the greatly Catholic expressions of faith of this monk:
On the Filioque: "The Spirit of the supreme Word is like a certain kind of love which the Father has for the mysteriously generated Word; and it is that same love that the most beloved Word and Son of the Father has for the one who generated him" which echoes Leo XIII's encyclical on the Paraclete whom he says to be "the divine Goodness and the mutual Love of the Father and the Son". (full reference here
Quote
)
And on the Blessed Virgin, John Paul II stated in a general audience (12th November 1997): "However, there remain some disagreements regarding the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, even if these truths were first expounded by certain Eastern theologians—one need only recall great writers like Gregory Palamas (d. 1359), Nicholas Cabasilas (d. after 1369) and George Scholarios (d. after 1472)." (look here for the entire document http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_12111997_en.html).

Thus all your words against Gregory Palamas are unjust since:
1) Pope John Paul II appreciated Hesychasm as defended by the great monk
2) The same Pope, whose image is in your avatar, called him a saint publicly in a conference (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/stgregorypalamas.shtm)
3) The Roman Pontiff allows honouring him as a saint in the Eastern Catholic Church
4) Gregory's orthodoxy on the matters of the double procession of the Holy Spirit and the doctrines concerning Mary are affirmed on the official site of the Holy See which quotes the words of His Holiness Pope Karol Wojtila
5) The doctrine of uncreated grace has never been sanctioned as dogma nor is it necessarily implied in any infallible document either ex cathedra or in Ecumenical Councils or liturgical texts. The affirmation that the Uncreated Energies deny the doctrine of God's simplicity don't affect Gregory Palamas's theology since many Church Fathers in the past made errors in the words they adopted to express the Catholic Faith (look at st. Clement of Alexandria with his "One Nature of the Incarnate Word") but are nevertheless considered to be orthodox and saint (from a Catholic point of view)
6) Gregory was a saint canonized locally long before the modern canonization process ever existed, nevertheless no need has been shown for the re-canonization of 17 centuries of saints living before this new rule to proclaim saints had been introduced. The fact that His Holiness expressly wanted and authorized that st. Gregory Palamas be honoured in the Eastern Catholic Churches is a ratification of this.
7) There are, as I said, many good reasons why Gregory Palamas had no occasion to enter the Roman Catholic Church - one is the absence of a certain authority of Popes in the period of the Avignon Captivity, and the second is, I must add, the prevalence of anti-mystic approaches to theology then dictated by Scholasticism and Thomist which aren't anymore the basis for Catholic dogmatics or better the Catholic Church allows for different words to be used to express the same truths.

May God lead you to a greater faithfulness to the Magisterium whom you claim to obey as a Roman Catholic.

In Christ,   Alex
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2010, 02:12:38 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

I don't see anything offensive in Papist's comment- I'd say the same thing to an Orthodox who venerated Francis of Assisi or Thomas Aquinas. It makes no sense for Byzantine Catholics to venerate St. Gregory Palamas- they should become Orthodox.
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2010, 02:16:31 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
Why is it offensive to question whether the Catholic Church should consider a person who is outside of our communion and even opposed communion with our Church to be a saint.
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2010, 02:23:39 PM »

A little information for you Papist:
there was no Pope in Rome at the time of Gregory Palamas. That was the period of the Avignon Papacy (1309 to 1378 AD). I don't think there could have been some kind of communication, even by epistle, between Gregory Palamas and the Roman Church in such a grave period. Gregory was trying to reform his own Church according to the mystical understanding he had - and that could have been a Divine plan so that through our Eastern Catholic brethren we might be led (as Westeners) to a further understanding of the inner life of God (not an understanding by reason but by a direct mystical approach to the Trinity such as Hesychasm proposes). In case you don't know, even other Catholic saints of the First Millennium expressed precisely the same opinions. St. Basil wrote thus: "the energies are numerous and the essence of God simple and what we know when we say God is in fact His energies. We do not pressure to approach His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach". Basil approved the same thoughts of Gregory Palamas, he also reaffirmed the simplicity of God's essence, yet he affirmed that we commune in God's energies. I don't see any problem with that, yet you insist in seeing non-existence problems.
Also consider that Pope John Paul II called Gregory Palamas a saint in a conference with both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. Look at the greatly Catholic expressions of faith of this monk:
On the Filioque: "The Spirit of the supreme Word is like a certain kind of love which the Father has for the mysteriously generated Word; and it is that same love that the most beloved Word and Son of the Father has for the one who generated him" which echoes Leo XIII's encyclical on the Paraclete whom he says to be "the divine Goodness and the mutual Love of the Father and the Son". (full reference here
Quote
)
And on the Blessed Virgin, John Paul II stated in a general audience (12th November 1997): "However, there remain some disagreements regarding the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, even if these truths were first expounded by certain Eastern theologians—one need only recall great writers like Gregory Palamas (d. 1359), Nicholas Cabasilas (d. after 1369) and George Scholarios (d. after 1472)." (look here for the entire document http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_12111997_en.html).

Thus all your words against Gregory Palamas are unjust since:
1) Pope John Paul II appreciated Hesychasm as defended by the great monk
2) The same Pope, whose image is in your avatar, called him a saint publicly in a conference (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/stgregorypalamas.shtm)
3) The Roman Pontiff allows honouring him as a saint in the Eastern Catholic Church
4) Gregory's orthodoxy on the matters of the double procession of the Holy Spirit and the doctrines concerning Mary are affirmed on the official site of the Holy See which quotes the words of His Holiness Pope Karol Wojtila
5) The doctrine of uncreated grace has never been sanctioned as dogma nor is it necessarily implied in any infallible document either ex cathedra or in Ecumenical Councils or liturgical texts. The affirmation that the Uncreated Energies deny the doctrine of God's simplicity don't affect Gregory Palamas's theology since many Church Fathers in the past made errors in the words they adopted to express the Catholic Faith (look at st. Clement of Alexandria with his "One Nature of the Incarnate Word") but are nevertheless considered to be orthodox and saint (from a Catholic point of view)
6) Gregory was a saint canonized locally long before the modern canonization process ever existed, nevertheless no need has been shown for the re-canonization of 17 centuries of saints living before this new rule to proclaim saints had been introduced. The fact that His Holiness expressly wanted and authorized that st. Gregory Palamas be honoured in the Eastern Catholic Churches is a ratification of this.
7) There are, as I said, many good reasons why Gregory Palamas had no occasion to enter the Roman Catholic Church - one is the absence of a certain authority of Popes in the period of the Avignon Captivity, and the second is, I must add, the prevalence of anti-mystic approaches to theology then dictated by Scholasticism and Thomist which aren't anymore the basis for Catholic dogmatics or better the Catholic Church allows for different words to be used to express the same truths.

May God lead you to a greater faithfulness to the Magisterium whom you claim to obey as a Roman Catholic.

In Christ,   Alex
1. Palamas explicitly rejected the filioque which the Catholic Church presents as binding dogma.
2. Palamas doctrine of the essence/energies distinction may have gone beyond the teachings of the Fathers.
3. Palamas explicitly rejected communion with the Catholic Church.
This is reason enough to question the oppropriateness of calling Palamas a Saint in the Catholic Church.

Now, the Holy Father may have honored and respected Palamas but that does not make Palamas a saint. In fact, His Holiness, John Paul the II, actually pointed out that there are certain aspects of the Hesychast movement that are incompatible witht the Catholic faith. Finally, just because he allowed some of the Eastern Catholic Churches to commemorate Palamas doesn't mean that Palamas is a saint. Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity and thus, it is possible to question his sainthood.

Reason three, listed above, makes it impossible for him to be a Catholic saint. He may have been a pious Eastern Orthodox man, but that does not mean he is a Catholic saint.
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2010, 02:33:11 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2010, 02:38:04 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2010, 02:40:27 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

While I strongly disagree with his opinions about St. Gregory, "infallibility" of canonizations, and many other things, I respect Papist for his consistency here and his intellectual honesty. I can't say the same about "Orthodox in Communion with Rome."
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2010, 02:42:02 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
weird
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2010, 02:43:00 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
Most faithful Catholics are like me. We see no reason to cannonize non-Catholics. It makes no sense at all.
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2010, 02:50:31 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex
Most faithful Catholics are like me. We see no reason to cannonize non-Catholics. It makes no sense at all.
I would appreciate not being cannonized, myself.  Not exactly the way I envision of becoming holy, if you take my meaning. Tongue Cheesy
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2010, 02:53:25 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes
weird

Indeed.
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:19 PM »

Because Palamas never underwent the the formal cannonization process, his sainthood is not a matter of infalliblity

Classic.  Roll Eyes

 Grin Speaking to walls would have been easier. At least they keep silent and don't open their mouths (which they haven't) mindlessly. Fortunately, I can assure you that most Catholics are not as Papist (he would have been better in the Middle Ages when an Orthodox would have been condemned to the fork for rejecting to adopt the heretic word "Filioque" in the Greek Creed together with hundreds of Protestants, Witches and so on).

In Christ,    Alex

Actually, if one looks at the history of witchcraft in Europe, it was the Protestant countries who were far more likely to indulge in witch trials and burnings at the stake.

And lest we forget, it was ol' Queen Bess who like to burn those Cat'licks.

I'm just saying that your particular demonizing of the medieval Roman Catholic church is quite disingenuous.  
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:59 PM »

Most faithful Catholics are like me.

Lord have mercy!  Cheesy
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2010, 03:11:09 PM »

Most faithful Catholics are like me.

Lord have mercy!  Cheesy
He has had mercy on us. He helps us to live the faith and believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2010, 10:12:24 PM »

I am not adopting the Eastern Orthodox view. We are talking about the acceptance or non-acceptance of Gregory Palamas in the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox view. In the CC, yes regional and local veneration of non-cannonized persons may be legitmate, but that does not make such veneration binding on the whole Church and leaves open the possibility that such a non-cannonized person is not a saint.

So what you are saying is that whenever a saint is official canonized by a particular church, the rest of the churches see that as an optional addition, unless of course it comes from the Vatican.  Do you not see the supremacist, condescending posture here toward your particular churches?  Also, this reveals the lack of the supposed unity that automatically comes from being in communion with "home sweet Rome", when you have particular churches commemorating saints on both sides of a Christological debate, while the liturgical books of the other continue to vilify the saint in question as a heretic.  This kind of nonsense shows that at the end of the day the only thing that really matters is submission to the Vatican, not any sort of theological or Christological consistency.  In addition to this, the principle of optional sainthood defeats the purpose of canonization in the first place, which is to confidently announce to the faithful that such-and-such a person is most certainly in heaven, and their intercessions can be sought with full confidence in their efficacy.

The Theotokos never went through the canonization process either, so you want to question her status too?

HA!  Well played.  Cheesy



The highlighted section refers exactly to the type of condescending attitude that Rome displayed to the "Greek Catholics" in America during St. Alexis Toth's and +Metropolitan Orestes' eras which led to a large scale migration back to Orthodoxy by many who were then "Greek Catholic." ( NB: I am not using the term "Greek Catholic"  as a pejorative, in violation of the forum rules, but rather to distinguish the Carpatho-Rusyn and Lemko groups which came to Orthodoxy from other ethnic Eastern Catholics who did not suffer the same degree of conflict during that era. That nomenclature was prevalent during that historical period.)
When the Greek Catholics came back into union, it was assumed that they were becoming Catholic and not just "Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome".
Well, we all know what happens when you assUme....but then honesty has never been the strong point of the union schemes.  Wonder how the Vatican can wag its finger at Anglican compromise....

There were no 'Greek Catholics' in either the Hungarian or Polish kingdoms prior to the unions of Brest or Uzhorod, so it is historically incorrect to claim "When the Greek Catholics came back into union, it was assumed that they were becoming Catholic and not just "Eastern Orthodox in Communion with Rome"."  They were  pious Orthodox peoples caught up in the geopolitics of their age. Are you still using Archbishop Ireland's playbook, or is it the one handed to Bishop Takach? Your attitude about the Unia is out of step with the official position of your church as has been developed over the past twenty-five years.

there was no malankara church in India before the ortho unia.
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« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2010, 05:38:50 PM »

The feast of St. Gregory Palamas is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Great Fast in the Melkite Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, and Ruthenian Catholic Churches, etc.

The link below is to the Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of Great Fast, the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which is available from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (Ruthenian Catholic Church in America):

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf
Its a pity. Why would you want to venerate a man who opposed the idea of being a member of the Church to which you belong, i.e. the Catholic Church.
I never have been able to understand why you feel the need to make offensive comments about St. Gregory Palamas.

May God bless you during this Great Fast.
Why is it offensive to question whether the Catholic Church should consider a person who is outside of our communion and even opposed communion with our Church to be a saint.

The Ruthenian Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Catholic Church, and the Melkite Catholic Church have decided to venerate St. Gregory Palamas, and as a good Melkite Catholic I shall assent to the decision of the sui juris Church of which I am a member.
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« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2010, 06:56:02 PM »

I see that the Romanian Greek-Catholic church has St. Gregory Palamas in their calendar, as well.
http://www.greco-catolic.ro/calendar.asp?luna=02
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« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2010, 03:44:24 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.


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« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2010, 03:54:53 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
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« Reply #82 on: March 17, 2010, 04:03:18 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
i dont support "hate christianity" or the  Westboro Baptist Church type of idealogy.  yes. his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint.  ^_^
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« Reply #83 on: March 17, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
...  his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint... i dont support "hate christianity" 

 If you say so.  Smiley
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« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2010, 04:14:06 PM »

As for Padre Pio, my statement still stands that he is not a Saint. I greatly respect many people in the west, whether they be Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, the monastics or others. However, I don't believe they are Saints. They are certainly closer to the truth than others such as Ghandi, Buddha or the Dalai Lama, but they are still outside of the Church. I pray and hope that although their absence from the Church can be dangerous for them, that they are still led to God through their own faith and what truth may be in there.
Padre Pio was no Saint, as we said before, he led someone from Orthodoxy, and no Saint standing in the heavenly kingdom would actively lead people here away from Orthodoxy.
I hope and pray that he is in heaven, and that this "vision" is simply a deception of Satan. But we ultimately cannot truly know if he is or not, because it is up to God. But we can know for certain that this was not of God. "You will know them by their fruits", the fruit of this "healing" was not in line with Holy Orthodoxy, and thus we can conclude that it probably didn't have holy origins.

However, I won't say the healing was not from God either... It is certainly possible that the healing was from God, but Satan deceived these people into attributing it to Padre Pio so they would leave the safety of Christ's Church. I pray that the healing was from God and these people simply were deceived & led away by Satan.

No matter the origins, these people made a grave mistake. Let's pray they repent and return to Holy Orthodoxy.
your hatred for catholic people and catholicism is downright scary. everything you say against catholics really does sounds like an intellectual version of a hate speech. you are so rude that it boggles the mind & almost embarrasses me that you are the "new convert" face of orthodoxy.

1 John 3:15 (KJV) "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

in my own humble opinion, the catholic saints you mentioned would sooner go to heaven than the likes of you.  by your actions i feel as if it is you who is satanic.  for mercy's sake,  it's LENTEN season.  humble yourself and don't be so argumentative & mean.   please seek prayer for answers, as well as therapy.

 Calling someone a 'murderer', 'satanic', and suggesting they need therapy?  You seem to have an odd definition of "humble".  Smiley  

  
...  his actions are closer to that of a person following satan than that who is a saint... i dont support "hate christianity" 

 If you say so.  Smiley
ugh.  Roll Eyes

the male ego.
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« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2010, 04:27:54 PM »


ugh.  Roll Eyes

the male ego.

LOL! I think I just got served!  Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2010, 01:42:03 PM »

Personally, I believe the text are very interesting and I interpret them as Stigmata. St. Paul was Crucified and so also bore the wounds of Christ... I see it the Deacon sees it.

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.
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« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2010, 08:05:12 AM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?
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« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.
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« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2010, 01:40:22 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.

Really? Are all these days of fasting supposed to be fun? Are all the monks and hermits having a big party that none of us knows about?
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« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2010, 05:09:58 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.
How so?  Could you please clarify what you mean here?
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« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2010, 05:12:59 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

Because of stigmata? Seriously?

Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.

How so?  Could you please clarify what you mean here?


To be honest, I'm not sure it's worth getting into here. I've voiced this before so you can look at my previous posts but during Lent I'm really not all that motivated into 'go to ground' with you all.
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« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »

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Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?
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« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2010, 09:11:28 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.
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« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2010, 10:12:31 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.

Really? You're just going to label us all in one fall-swoop? Sad So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2010, 10:25:00 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism. 'True' mortification 'must' proceed dispassion, so the two are not antithetical of one another.

Really? You're just going to label us all in one fall-swoop? Sad So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew

No, not in one Fell-swoop... and I attempt to keep my comments targeted to those 'here' on the forum. With regards to 'their own' saints... I see a lot of early Church Saints that don't fit all too well with the modern Orthodox presentation of the Faith. Pointing that out isn't 'interpreting' in a Roman Catholic mindset... I see this modern aversion to the early Church acetic present in the west also...
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« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2010, 12:47:36 PM »

So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
Andrew, do not fret. Ignatius has been flip flopping back and forth for years.  Believe me, next month he will want to convert to Holy Orthodoxy once again. It is his M.O.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2010, 01:04:11 PM »

So you wanted to become Orthodox because of the piety of the people and when some of them did not live up to your expectations (because they are human, right?) or interpreted the writings about their OWN Saints in a different way than the Roman Catholic mindset you decided Orthodoxy was not the true Church of Christ? That's what I'm getting from this post. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I really hope I am.

In Christ,
Andrew
Andrew, do not fret. Ignatius has been flip flopping back and forth for years.  Believe me, next month he will want to convert to Holy Orthodoxy once again. It is his M.O.  Roll Eyes



True but it is a genuine flip flopping Mickey.
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« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2010, 10:16:14 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.
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« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2010, 10:27:39 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.

I think I am pointing out the hypocrisy of 'some' Orthodox who seek to artificially widen the divide between the West and the East with regards to mortification and the Stigmata as a genuine sign of Christ and His devout followers the Apostles.
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« Reply #100 on: March 24, 2010, 10:46:21 AM »

Quote
Note because of stigmata but because it appears that Orthodoxy, specially in the West, reinterprets the early Faith in a way that all suffering and mortification is removed.


This is a false interpretation. One only needs to look at the liturgical, patristic and iconographic traditions of the Orthodox Church to realise that there is a balance between mortification and dispassion. Orthodox iconography does not show a ravaged, bloody Jesus on the cross, but the Christ, the Son of God who is also the Son of Man, giving Himself freely for the salvation of humanity. On the other hand, the rigors of Great Lent (dietary, liturgical and devotional) among observant Orthodox would make the average western Christian blanch. We don't just "give up chocolate".  Wink Grin angel

ignatius, are you familiar with the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete?

I hear "Lord have Mercy"... endlessly and yet few Orthodox would even admit that we need to ask this from a Loving God. St. Seraphim of Sarov knelt for 'years' on bloodly knees yet few Orthodox would look at this as anything but masochism.

So why is the very rock on which St. Seraphim kneeled with bloody knees venerated by thousands of Orthodox? Why do many popular icons of the saint depict him kneeling on the rock?

It sounds like you're battling an illusory version of Orthodoxy that you constructed on the basis of internet discussions.

I think I am pointing out the hypocrisy of 'some' Orthodox who seek to artificially widen the divide between the West and the East with regards to mortification and the Stigmata as a genuine sign of Christ and His devout followers the Apostles.

The Orthodox critique of "stigmata" that I've seen has nothing to do with rejecting mortification or suffering. It has to do with the overall spiritual approach that produces stigmatics, which tends to be passionate and stimulating to the imagination, seeking after visions and spiritual experiences. The Orthodox ascetic approach is more one of prayer and repentance, avoiding any images and not soliciting God for visions or trials, only mercy. When visions come to saints, they are unbidden.

I agree that some people do exaggerate the divide between Orthodoxy and the Latins, but the key word is some. Other people overly downplay the divide. You can find some people to disagree with in every tradition.

Don't base your opinion of Orthodoxy on a handful of internet personalities, even if some of them promote themselves as authorities. It is very obvious in Orthodox praxis that asceticism is indispensable and central.
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« Reply #101 on: March 24, 2010, 12:18:20 PM »

The Orthodox critique of "stigmata" that I've seen has nothing to do with rejecting mortification or suffering. It has to do with the overall spiritual approach that produces stigmatics, which tends to be passionate and stimulating to the imagination, seeking after visions and spiritual experiences.

Yes. It is called "prelest".
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« Reply #102 on: March 24, 2010, 01:13:56 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.
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« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2010, 03:10:28 PM »

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.

Indeed.
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« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2010, 04:20:12 PM »

Such is why I am not Eastern Orthodox and perhaps will never be.

The Lord spits out the lukewarm.  You have to gird your loins and make a decision at some point, then stick with it.

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?
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« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2010, 07:17:46 PM »

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.
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« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2010, 11:14:00 AM »

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.
Yes Alveus.  This is completely accurate. It is an odd schizophrenia of sorts.  There is a 180 degree change in mindset every other month. And it is perpetual. I also find this sort thing particularly frustrating--because you never know which person you are communicatring with on any given month.
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« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2010, 02:06:01 PM »

So technically the Lord would be spitting out 99% of Christians for not doing such strict penances?

I was referring to a lack of commitment or resolve to any particular ecclesiastical body, not to his own ascetic labors, or those of anyone else. I was probably a bit harsh, but his indecision and lack or resolve, coupled with his incessant whining have made him increasingly irritating to me over the last several months. This is based upon a track record that spans years. It's nothing recent or temporary; it's perpetual.

One month the Vatican is the worst game in town and the Orthodox are the saviours of humanity, then the next month it's the reverse. Lately he's been throwing an admiration for many Protestant groups into the pot. I just respect a bit more conviction from a person.  So in that regard I find the hardline Protestants and Roman Catholics that post on here less frustrating than I do him. It's fine to go through periods of questioning and doubt, but one can't be rendered perpetually stagnant by them. Drop the Cross, or choose a camp and pick it up already.

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kinda think is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.
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« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kind of thing is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.

Yeah, nothing says inner transformation like being the tragically misunderstood rebel on the fringes. You let me know once you figure out what is truly complete and whole so that I can drink your kool-aid instead.

I obviously didn't mean to pick a group for the sake of belonging to one, I meant that at some point you just have to decide with some conviction and resolve. Otherwise you end up running in circles your whole life and never moving forward. Maybe that choice for you is that nobody has it quite right, and the best that God has revealed to us are a new set of possibilities within a limited framework. If that's your position, mainline nondenominational Protestantism is the choice for you.

I know you're simply trying to be intellectually honest, and that's admirable, but perpetual indecisiveness is not admirable. Inaction/stagnation is the same thing as being dead. God spits out the lukewarm, and He likewise craps out the inert.
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« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2010, 02:31:48 PM »

So you are more interested in 'identifying' with a particular religion? I'm sorry I don't 'conform' and become a 'character'. There are some things I like and dislike about all three main-branches of Christianity but I'm not sure if any are 'truly' complete and whole.

This kind of thing is seen in identity politics as well... I'm just not buying it or drinking the coolaid.

Yeah, nothing says inner transformation like being the tragically misunderstood rebel on the fringes. You let me know once you figure out what is truly complete and whole so that I can drink your kool-aid instead.

I obviously didn't mean to pick a group for the sake of belonging to one, I meant that at some point you just have to decide with some conviction and resolve. Otherwise you end up running in circles your whole life and never moving forward. Maybe that choice for you is that nobody has it quite right, and the best that God has revealed to us are a new set of possibilities within a limited framework. If that's your position, mainline nondenominational Protestantism is the choice for you.

I know you're simply trying to be intellectually honest, and that's admirable, but perpetual indecisiveness is not admirable. Inaction/stagnation is the same thing as being dead. God spits out the lukewarm, and He likewise craps out the inert.

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted. I don't think that is lukewarm, inert or indecisive. What I 'like' about Orthodoxy I also 'like' about Catholicism. I'm just not ready to switch 'team-shirts' as much as the Roman Church irks me at times.
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« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2010, 02:53:19 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley

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« Reply #111 on: March 26, 2010, 02:54:31 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley


Why are you picking on him? Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
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« Reply #112 on: March 26, 2010, 03:23:27 PM »

Please consider me Roman Catholic unless otherwise noted.
You mean until next month? Sorry couldn't help that one.  Smiley


Why are you picking on him? Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
Not only is this round of picking on ignatius uncalled for and borderline ad hominem, it also distracts from the purpose of this discussion.  So knock it off, all of you!
(Not addressing this directive to you, Papist, since I'm only reinforcing your advice. Wink)
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« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2010, 04:17:25 PM »

Do you need to do so to make yourself more certain of your own conversion?
No, I do not.


And I offer my deepest apologies to Ignatius.

Please forgive me.
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« Reply #114 on: April 04, 2010, 12:22:01 PM »

These kinds of discussions are always sad because they are essentially cruel and bring out the worst in everyone.

I would like to mention to the Orthodox who think they know wot's wot that the Catholic Church is not eager to embrace every stigmatic as an indication of automatic sanctity, and that it is actually false witness to continue to assert such things, and that false witness is an objectively evil act...so I am sure you really don't mean what you are saying to be false witness.  Therefore it would be good to keep silent till one actually knows what one is talking about.

In fact Padre Pio suffered deep isolation because of something he never asked for and never desired.  His life is a well documented podvig.

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

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« Reply #115 on: April 04, 2010, 08:20:50 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
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« Reply #116 on: April 04, 2010, 10:17:32 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.

St. Gregory does not actively and vigorously reject the teaching of my Church. 

Perhaps you were speaking to someone else? 

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think that the Palamite controversy was an Orthodox vs. Catholic argument...are you?

EM
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« Reply #117 on: April 04, 2010, 11:12:30 PM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.

St. Gregory does not actively and vigorously reject the teaching of my Church. 

Perhaps you were speaking to someone else? 

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think that the Palamite controversy was an Orthodox vs. Catholic argument...are you?

EM

A Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest that teaches a class I am taking does not like St. Gregory Palamas in the least. He is the one that told us that St. Gregory actively opposed Roman Catholic teaching, i.e. saying the filioque was heretical, etc. Unfortunately for him, St. Gregory is on his calendar.  Grin

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« Reply #118 on: April 04, 2010, 11:31:48 PM »


A Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest that teaches a class I am taking does not like St. Gregory Palamas in the least. He is the one that told us that St. Gregory actively opposed Roman Catholic teaching, i.e. saying the filioque was heretical, etc. Unfortunately for him, St. Gregory is on his calendar.  Grin

In Christ,
Andrew

Everyone who's ever discussed this on the Internet has read the newadvent Catholic encyclopedia entry on hesychasm and St. Gregory.  But there's very good historical data that says that some monastics took the position evidenced in the encyclopedia, while others did not and some of them disagreed within the same monastic order, and other orders simply never took a position counter to the father's whose teachings informed Palamas, and that informed the development of parish spirituality differently in different parts of the Catholic world.   So unless you've read deeply in western monastic history, all you can do is generalize and over-generalize, one minute grabbing the elephant's trunk and the next moment his tail....Not particularly representative of consensus that way.

EM



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« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2010, 01:50:36 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.

It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.
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« Reply #120 on: April 05, 2010, 02:12:58 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.
It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.

See folks, what we have here is consistency on both sides, free from any dishonest glossing over the differences. "Byzantine" Christians, eat your hearts out.
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« Reply #121 on: April 05, 2010, 07:31:38 AM »

St. Gregory Palamas is a saint in the Catholic Church and the idea that he would have to be canonized in some modern form is ludicrous since that Latin rite or Roman rite calendar is full of saints who never were "canonized" in any modern sense.
It's also ludicrous to venerate someone who actively and vigorously rejected the teachings of your church.
I have to agree.

See folks, what we have here is consistency on both sides, free from any dishonest glossing over the differences. "Byzantine" Christians, eat your hearts out.

Some of our differences are real.  Some of them are created, such as this one.

The question always has been are those differences sufficient to sustain the sin of schism.

I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
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« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2010, 11:21:03 AM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.
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« Reply #123 on: April 05, 2010, 11:58:20 AM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.

It is not an unwarranted approach and surely not an attack to describe a poster's general tone and approach.  Your posts strike me as discordant.  It seems to me also that out of the heart the mouth speaks.  So just pretend I am from Missouri and "show me" what you want me to see of you.  Otherwise I can only see what you do offer in fact.

EM
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« Reply #124 on: April 05, 2010, 07:10:28 PM »



I find it interesting that you accept the infallibility of a single discordant papist and reject the infallibility of the truths taught by the Catholic Church.  That speaks volumes.

EM
I think you might want to get to know me before you start attacking. I have a great love for many things Eastern in the Catholic Church and in the Eastesrn Orthodox Church. In fact, I have sympathy for people who desire to venerate people like Seraphim of Serov.

It is not an unwarranted approach and surely not an attack to describe a poster's general tone and approach.  Your posts strike me as discordant.  It seems to me also that out of the heart the mouth speaks.  So just pretend I am from Missouri and "show me" what you want me to see of you.  Otherwise I can only see what you do offer in fact.

EM
Let me be honest with you buddy, your first post referring to me was nothing less than discordant. I am not to sure you have that great an impression on me either. So please, dear judge, tell me what is so aweful about what I have said.
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« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2010, 12:48:42 AM »

Tangent on God's mercy split off and moved here:  What Do We Mean When We Pray, "Lord have mercy!"?
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