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Author Topic: Padre Pio Credited With Orthodox Parish's Conversion  (Read 7566 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 28, 2010, 05:15:04 PM »

News to me:

http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english


ZE07112805 - 2007-11-28
Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her



By Nieves San Martín

PESCEANA, Romania, NOV. 28, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The 71-year-old mother of a former Orthodox priest says she was cured of lung cancer through the intercession of Padre Pio. After the apparent miracle, the priest explained, he and his mother, and members of his parish, have become Catholics.

Lucrecia Tudor was born into the Romanian Orthodox Church and her son, Victor, followed a vocation to the priesthood. In 2002, he was working in Pesceana, close to Valcea, in south central Romania. Another son, Mariano, dedicated himself to painting, especially iconography, and lives and works in Rome.

The story of the family, and the church they are building dedicated to Saint Pio de Pietrelcina, was related to ZENIT by Italian journalist, Renzo Allegri.

Lucrecia was diagnosed with a tumor in her left lung more than five years ago. Romanian doctors told her surgery was impossible and she had few months to live. Lucrecia and Father Victor turned to Mariano for help, hoping that a doctor in Rome could be found to give a better prognosis.

Mariano contacted a well-known surgeon, who invited the young painter to bring his mother to Rome, where he would try to save her.

After reviewing the reports from his Romanian colleagues, the doctor examined Lucrecia with more detail, only to arrive at the same conclusion: An operation was useless. He could only offer medications to ease the sharp pain, which, he predicted would increase in the terminal phase.

Mariano kept his mother with himself in Rome so as to be near the doctor for checkups. He was working on a mosaic in a church and, as his mother does not speak Italian, he kept her close by. While he was working, his mother walked through the church, contemplating the paintings and statues.
In one corner, there was a large statue of Padre Pio. Lucrecia liked the statue and asked Mariano who it depicted. Mariano related briefly the story of the saint. In the coming days, he saw his mother spending all her time seated before the image, with which she chatted as if it were alive.

Two weeks later, Mariano took his mother to the hospital for her checkup. The doctor said the tumor had disappeared.

Lucrecia had asked Padre Pio to help her, even though she was Orthodox, and, she said, the saint had granted her request.

“The great cure of my mother, accomplished through Padre Pio in favor of an Orthodox woman, impressed me much,” Father Victor said. "I began to read the life of the Italian saint. I told my parishioners what had happened. They all knew my mother and everyone knew we had gone to Italy in order to try a surgical intervention, and that she had returned home cured, without any doctor having operated.

"In my parish, they began to know and love Padre Pio. We read everything we found about him. His holiness won us over. Meanwhile, in my parish other sick people also received extraordinary graces from Padre Pio. Among my people, there spread a great enthusiasm and, little by little, we decided to become Catholics, in order to be closer to Padre.”

The step from the Orthodox to the Catholic Church required a slow process. And there were difficulties of every kind, Allegri explained in relating the story. But the parishioners continued in the process and even decided to build a church to dedicate it to Padre Pio.

"The funds are the result of the savings of this poor people, and of the help of some German Catholics who heard our story,” Father Victor said. “And my parishioners are those who are bringing forward the work, working for free, naturally. […] After a few days, we celebrated solemnly the placing of the first stone. And it was a big party, because the Metropolitan Archbishop of Fagaras and Alba Julia of the Romanians, meaning, the highest authority of the Greek Catholic Church in Romania, came to celebrate […] To conclude this ceremony, the metropolitan wished to meet my mother, cured through a miracle of Padre Pio, and posed with her for a photo.”



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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 07:13:09 PM »

A very interesting story indeed. I remember the first book I read on the life of Padre Pio, and to my amazement, it was written by a Lutheran Pastor!

But what do you think about this miracle/conversion story , Robb?
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 07:36:25 PM »

A very interesting story indeed. I remember the first book I read on the life of Padre Pio, and to my amazement, it was written by a Lutheran Pastor!

But what do you think about this miracle/conversion story , Robb?

I'd have to say there was clearly something missing in the parish if they decided to apostate.
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 07:42:23 PM »

News to me:

http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english


ZE07112805 - 2007-11-28
Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her

Ugh.  This is why I can't stomach people praying to heterodox "saints" like Pio, Francis of Assisi, or Therese of Lisieux.  One woman receiving an alleged "miracle" led to her son spurning his holy orders and the apostasy of a whole parish.

Through the prayers of the true saints Mark of Ephesus, Photios the Great, and Job of Pochaev, may they return to Christ's only Church.
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 07:50:48 PM »

News to me:

http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english


ZE07112805 - 2007-11-28
Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her

Ugh.  This is why I can't stomach people praying to heterodox "saints" like Pio, Francis of Assisi, or Therese of Lisieux.  One woman receiving an alleged "miracle" led to her son spurning his holy orders and the apostasy of a whole parish.

Through the prayers of the true saints Mark of Ephesus, Photios the Great, and Job of Pochaev, may they return to Christ's only Church.
Ugh?  A woman was cured of a terminal disease, for Pete's sake. I really doubt that earthly divisions exist in the saint's realm. Catholic or Orthodox, glory be to God!
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2010, 08:05:34 PM »

News to me:

http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english


ZE07112805 - 2007-11-28
Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-21136?l=english

Padre Pio Credited With Parish's Conversion


Former Orthodox Woman Says Saint Obtained Cure for Her

Ugh.  This is why I can't stomach people praying to heterodox "saints" like Pio, Francis of Assisi, or Therese of Lisieux.  One woman receiving an alleged "miracle" led to her son spurning his holy orders and the apostasy of a whole parish.

Through the prayers of the true saints Mark of Ephesus, Photios the Great, and Job of Pochaev, may they return to Christ's only Church.
Ugh?  A woman was cured of a terminal disease, for Pete's sake. I really doubt that earthly divisions exist in the saint's realm. Catholic or Orthodox, glory be to God!

It's up to God who is saved and who isn't. We don't know whether or not people like Padre Pio are "saints" in heaven... We know our Saints are in heaven. But it's ultimately up to God. Even if Padre Pio and others are "saints" in heaven, that is no reason for someone to apostate from Christ's Church.

If Buddha or Ghandi are in heaven, does that mean we should apostate to Buddhism or Hinduism? Does that mean those religions are true? Certainly not.
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2010, 08:35:08 PM »


It's up to God who is saved and who isn't.We don't know whether or not people like Padre Pio are "saints" in heaven.... We know our Saints are in heaven. But it's ultimately up to God. Even if Padre Pio and others are "saints" in heaven, that is no reason for someone to apostate from Christ's Church.

If Buddha or Ghandi are in heaven, does that mean we should apostate to Buddhism or Hinduism? Does that mean those religions are true? Certainly not.
Exactly, it's not up to you nor me. It's all up to God. But you're certain your saints are in heaven, and rightly so, but I have to hope and pray that the saints of my tradition are there with them? I don't mean to sound sarcastic so please forgive me for my poor choice of words; Respectfully, it doesn't matter to me if the EO Church does not acknowledge some of our canonized saints. I mean, there's nothing I can do about it if I choose to remain RC. I am sure the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses don't acknowledge any our or saints, but that would be irrelevant and to a point it should be because they should not bear an influence on my faith since I don't adhere to their beliefs. I am not  in any way comparing your faith to the Mormon faith nor to the JW faith, I just used them as an example to make my point.
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There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 08:42:37 PM »


It's up to God who is saved and who isn't.We don't know whether or not people like Padre Pio are "saints" in heaven.... We know our Saints are in heaven. But it's ultimately up to God. Even if Padre Pio and others are "saints" in heaven, that is no reason for someone to apostate from Christ's Church.

If Buddha or Ghandi are in heaven, does that mean we should apostate to Buddhism or Hinduism? Does that mean those religions are true? Certainly not.
Exactly, it's not up to you nor me. It's all up to God. But you're are certain your saints are in heaven, and rightly so, but I have to hope and pray that the saints of my tradition are there with them? I don't mean to sound sarcastic so please forgive me for my poor choice of words; Respectfully, it doesn't matter to me if the EO Church does not acknowledge some of our canonized saints. I mean, there's nothing I can do about it if I choose to remain RC. I am sure the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses don't acknowledge any our or saints, but that would be irrelevant and to a point it should be because they should not bear an influence on my faith since I don't adhere to their beliefs. I am not comparing your faith to the Mormon faith nor the JW faith, I just used them as an example.

I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2010, 08:55:28 PM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 09:22:56 PM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

The official Orthodox position (so far as I know) would be no, their sacraments aren't valid. The Roman Catholic communion is not valid, and no Orthodox should ever partake, unless directed to by their Bishop (and thus, it would probably only be in an extreme case of not having a local Orthodox church nearby).
If I were to go to a Roman Catholic Church and take communion, I would be excommunicating myself from the Orthodox Church, and thus would need to go to confession before receiving communion again.

I would say it's probably a case-by-case basis. I grew up in a Protestant church where my dad (who was our minister) baptized me in the Trinity. My Priest told me that our Bishop allowed us to just be chrismated if we had proper baptism. However I decided to undergo baptism anyway under the direction/guidance of my Priest.

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http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=134&SID=3

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In brief, Orthodox Christians are only to be married in an Orthodox ceremony.

In your case, I would speak with your bishop concerning how the matter can be rectified and how you can be restored to the reception of Holy Communion. He should be more than happy to spell out what needs to be done according to the discipline of his particular diocese.
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In brief, while Roman Catholicism sees Orthodoxy as a "sister church", Orthodoxy sees herself as the fullness of the Church, not the "other half" of the Church, as implied in the notion of a "sister church."
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 09:58:38 PM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

The official Orthodox position (so far as I know) would be no, their sacraments aren't valid, maybe except for baptism and marriage. The Roman Catholic communion definitely isn't valid, and no Orthodox should ever partake, unless directed to by their Bishop (and thus, it would probably only be in an extreme case of not having a local Orthodox church nearby).
If I were to go to a Roman Catholic Church and take communion, I would be excommunicating myself from the Orthodox Church, and thus would need to go to confession before receiving communion again.

I would say it's probably a case-by-case basis. I grew up in a Protestant church where my dad (who was our minister) baptized me in the Trinity. My Priest told me that our Bishop allowed us to just be chrismated if we had proper baptism. However I decided to undergo baptism anyway under the direction/guidance of my Priest.

Roman Catholic sacraments are never valid in and of themselves.  (Occasional Orthodox scholars will say otherwise, but they are simply wrong.)  The reasoning behind what's called "recognizing" heterodox baptism by economy is that, when someone has received a heterodox baptism that nonetheless followed the basic form of Orthodox baptism (in the name of the Trinity), the principle of economy means that the chrismation of the convert fills the otherwise _empty_ heterodox baptism with grace that it did not have in and of itself. 

Marriages are also frequently received in economy, because it's just kind of silly to accuse converts of fornicating for however many years when they simply didn't know any better at the time.  Sometimes converts get an Orthodox wedding when they convert, and sometimes they don't, it depends on the bishop and the couple.

Eucharist is obviously not valid in any church other than the Orthodox Church, because their bishops lack apostolic succession and unity with the Church.  There is a lot of confusion over this because some people assume that apparent similarity in beliefs in a heterodox group means that their eucharist must be real as well.  But this is based on a hocus-pocus sacramental theology that falls apart easily. 

In fact, I personally can't see how it's ever appropriate for Orthodox to commune heterodox or heterodox to commune Orthodox even in exigent circumstances (one's deathbed or a great distance from one's own church).  I've never seen any patristic or canonical precedent for this practice.  And I've left specific instructions that if I am on my own deathbed, only an Orthodox priest should be called for giving me confession, communion, or unction (and instructions on how to identify and contact a legitimate priest, since many places I've gone have certain heterodox listed as Orthodox in the phone book!).
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 10:37:27 PM »

I have read another story like this where Padre Pio explicitly counseled a woman to apostatize from Orthodoxy. He's no saint!
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 11:14:27 PM »

This is the work of the Devil and not of Padre Pio.  There is no way that Padre Pio Forgione, now that he has reposed and has come to a knowledge of the truth, would lead someone out of the true Church.
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2010, 11:22:27 PM »

This is the work of the Devil and not of Padre Pio.  There is no way that Padre Pio Forgione, now that he has reposed and has come to a knowledge of the truth, would lead someone out of the true Church.

Pardon me, this was when Padre Pio was still alive (I'm assuming you're responding to my post).
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 11:28:24 PM »

This is the work of the Devil and not of Padre Pio.  There is no way that Padre Pio Forgione, now that he has reposed and has come to a knowledge of the truth, would lead someone out of the true Church.

Pardon me, this was when Padre Pio was still alive (I'm assuming you're responding to my post).

Sorry, Iconodule, my mistake.  I thought that Pade Pio had counselled a woman from beyond the grave.

 
Today (28 February) is the commemoration of St. Sillian of Bangor
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints

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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2010, 11:35:42 PM »

On a side note, in Fr. Lazarus Moore's Life of St. Seraphim of Sarov, there's a French Protestant woman who is looking for the true Church and she reads the life of Francis of Assisi. She has a dream of him standing next to an old, hunched man with a beard, who looks like a Russian. St. Francis tells her something to the effect of, "the true Church is where he is!"  She later recognizes the man in an icon she sees of St. Seraphim.
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2010, 12:12:36 AM »

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Roman Catholic sacraments are never valid in and of themselves.  (Occasional Orthodox scholars will say otherwise, but they are simply wrong.

I'd give them some credit still.
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2010, 12:17:24 AM »

OK, he cured a terminally ill woman. Show me an orthodox priest who did that for her. Satan takes life, he does not give it. This is a theological challenge to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2010, 12:20:51 AM »

This is the work of the Devil and not of Padre Pio.  There is no way that Padre Pio Forgione, now that he has reposed and has come to a knowledge of the truth, would lead someone out of the true Church.
The story is far from being complete: it's all about a conflict between an ambitious priest and a number of his parishioners and their bishop, the bishop of Rimnic. It's a longer story that made a few headlines in the Romanian newspapers a few years ago, as I remember, since this was the very first Greek Catholic church to be established in Romania, whose members were not Transylvanians, but Wallachians.
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2010, 12:25:15 AM »

Romania (Latins) suffered under the (Greek) Orthodox Church. Maybe God wants Romania to leave the OC by healing a deathly ill woman as proof of his power?  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2010, 12:26:30 AM »

OK, he cured a terminally ill woman. Show me an orthodox priest who did that for her. Satan takes life, he does not give it. This is a theological challenge to the Orthodox Church.
Maybe a theological challenge to all those who believe that heaven is inhabited only by those who were Orthodox. Wink  To my knowledge, the only position the Orthodox Church takes on this is that we simply don't know.  If God should grant that a non-Orthodox man should perform miracles after his death, then glory be to God who is wonderful in His saints!
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2010, 12:31:57 AM »

OK, he cured a terminally ill woman. Show me an orthodox priest who did that for her. Satan takes life, he does not give it. This is a theological challenge to the Orthodox Church.
Maybe a theological challenge to all those who believe that heaven is inhabited only by those who were Orthodox. Wink  To my knowledge, the only position the Orthodox Church takes on this is that we simply don't know.  If God should grant that a non-Orthodox man should perform miracles after his death, then glory be to God who is wonderful in His saints!

As PeterTheAleut says, we just don't know who is in heaven and who isn't. (maybe save for the Orthodox Saints)

However, as I pointed out earlier, even if it was a case of intercession by Padre Pio where this woman was healed, that wouldn't be a case for conversion to Catholicism. However, seeing as he did indeed lead some from Orthodoxy during his earthly life, I can hardly see him as a saint doing the same after death.
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2010, 12:35:07 AM »

OK, he cured a terminally ill woman. Show me an orthodox priest who did that for her. Satan takes life, he does not give it. This is a theological challenge to the Orthodox Church.
Maybe a theological challenge to all those who believe that heaven is inhabited only by those who were Orthodox. Wink  To my knowledge, the only position the Orthodox Church takes on this is that we simply don't know.  If God should grant that a non-Orthodox man should perform miracles after his death, then glory be to God who is wonderful in His saints!

I keep hearing about this padre pio even in the COE. Its really funny, I'm asking the Qasha about some eschatology, and right after quoting part of II thessalonians in Aramaic he relates a "reliable tradition" from padre pio  Grin

I didn't know it was padre pio rumours and I ask him "Wow, where did you hear this great secret oral tradition? Is this written somewhere"?
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2010, 12:40:02 AM »

Quote
However, as I pointed out earlier, even if it was a case of intercession by Padre Pio where this woman was healed, that wouldn't be a case for conversion to Catholicism.

But the highest abortion rate in the world (Romania) in orthodox jurisdiction is?





Just playing the you know who's advocate.
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2010, 12:44:38 AM »

Quote
However, as I pointed out earlier, even if it was a case of intercession by Padre Pio where this woman was healed, that wouldn't be a case for conversion to Catholicism.

But the highest abortion rate in the world (Romania) in orthodox jurisdiction is?


Just playing the you know who's advocate.
I don't really understand what you are driving at... People are sinful, so what? Does any particular sin make Orthodox people more wrong than Catholic? We all have the same sins, abortion is no worse than anything you or I have ever done.

Padre Pio claimed to have "stigmata" and we even have a recorded incident of him leading someone away from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Like with Francis of Assisi, I would be VERY skeptical of his qualifications as a saint.
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2010, 12:47:38 AM »

Quote
However, as I pointed out earlier, even if it was a case of intercession by Padre Pio where this woman was healed, that wouldn't be a case for conversion to Catholicism.

But the highest abortion rate in the world (Romania) in orthodox jurisdiction is?





Just playing the you know who's advocate.
That's probably no longer the case.
BTW I love the Assyrians, visited their churches a few times, talked to two priests, Wonderful people and churches.
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2010, 01:13:57 AM »

Romanians are super cool. I have never been to a Romanian Church but planning to do so one day, be it an Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2010, 01:13:57 AM »

Quote
Padre Pio claimed to have "stigmata" and we even have a recorded incident of him leading someone away from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Like with Francis of Assisi, I would be VERY skeptical of his qualifications as a saint.

I know Francis of Assis was a Saint because:

1) When the Muslims pressed him for proof of his devotion to his faith he demanded trial by fire. How many people are disposed to do that?

2) He left a very favorable impression on the Muslim Caliph who asked him to pray for him on making up his mind between Islam and Christianity before he died (for a Muslim Caliph to ask for that means a person of singular charisma was with him).

3) He helped the poor when clerical corruption was rampant.

4) I have -personally- known cases of stigmata which were most assuredly not fake. A Stigmata makes a cross on a person's hands supposedly, why would Satan make a cross (See Philippians..."enemies of the cross") ?
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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2010, 02:01:47 AM »

I have no opinion this.  I was recently having a conversation with my brother about Padre Pio and I thought that it would be interesting to see what his opinion of Orthodoxy was.  I did a Google search and the only thing that seemed to come up was this article from 2007.  Since I'm a member of an Orthodox forum and this issue relates to Orthodoxy, I thought that it would be interesting to post it here.

My grandmother was Italian and she had a deep veneration of Padre Pio for decades before anyone in mainstream Catholicism (outside of Italians) had head of him.  My maternal family is from the same region of Italy as his monastery and a relative had send her a postcard with his picture on it.  She proudly displayed it and told us that he "worked miracles".  I had no idea who he was really until years later when he was canonized by the RCC and began to have a widespread following amongst non Italian Catholics. 
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« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2010, 02:16:08 AM »

Quote
Padre Pio claimed to have "stigmata" and we even have a recorded incident of him leading someone away from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Like with Francis of Assisi, I would be VERY skeptical of his qualifications as a saint.

I know Francis of Assis was a Saint because:

1) When the Muslims pressed him for proof of his devotion to his faith he demanded trial by fire. How many people are disposed to do that?

2) He left a very favorable impression on the Muslim Caliph who asked him to pray for him on making up his mind between Islam and Christianity before he died (for a Muslim Caliph to ask for that means a person of singular charisma was with him).

3) He helped the poor when clerical corruption was rampant.

4) I have -personally- known cases of stigmata which were most assuredly not fake. A Stigmata makes a cross on a person's hands supposedly, why would Satan make a cross (See Philippians..."enemies of the cross") ?

A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov
The article in the link also explains why Francis of Assisi is not a saint.

Quote
The Orthodox Church does not include Francis of Assisi among its Saints. He was a fanatic Papist, lived after the separation of the Roman Catholic Church from Orthodoxy, and practiced a romantic and emotional spirituality foreign to genuine Orthodox spiritual traditions. One can indeed appreciate the literature attributed to Francis, as Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna has rightly pointed out, but devotion to him, let alone in the form of the veneration of his "Icons," is wholly un-Orthodox. We would hope that what you say about such in the OCA is exaggerated; if not, perhaps that jurisdiction's Greek Catholic roots are showing and need, to be sure, some trimming.

With regard to the Fathers of the Church, among whom no sober individual has—whatever his opinion of the man—ever included Nicholas Zernov, Francis of Assisi is not held in high esteem in Patristic writings. Characteristically, St. Ignaty (Brianchaninov), the famous ascetic Bishop recently Glorified by the Moscow Patriarchate, speaks of Francis' life in the context of spiritual delusion:

'When Francis was caught up to heaven,' says a writer of his life, 'God the Father, on seeing him, was for a moment in doubt to as [sic] to whom to give the preference, to His Son by nature or to His son by grace—Francis.' What can be more frightful or madder than this blasphemy, what can be sadder than this delusion[?]! [The Arena, Ch. 11]

For several centuries, various Orthodox intellectuals—among them, Nikos Kazantzakis (1885-1957), the famous Greek writer, and numerous Slavic men of letters (e.g., S. Sitianovich [1629-16701, L. Tolstoy [1828-1910], and many of the "Paris School" in the twentieth century)—have succumbed to the lure of a theatrical and romantic Western vision of sanctity largely unknown in the pre-Schism East or West (except as a symptom of spiritual delusion), but perfectly captured in the cultus of Francis of Assisi. Not only have these individuals contributed to the distortion of our Orthodox Faith, a distortion which still plagues the Church, but have sometimes betrayed the Church and lost their personal Faith. The kind of splenetic firmness that your question shows in calling untraditional Archbishop Chrysostomos' wholly traditional outlook on Francis of Assisi, we are obliged to say, is a first step in the process by which these individuals came to spiritual ruin. We would ask you and all those with a personal, emotional commitment—and especially a peevish one—to post-Schism Western notions of sanctity and to post-Schism Western "saints" to reflect on this observation.
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2010, 04:38:21 AM »

Quote
Padre Pio claimed to have "stigmata" and we even have a recorded incident of him leading someone away from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Like with Francis of Assisi, I would be VERY skeptical of his qualifications as a saint.

I know Francis of Assis was a Saint because:

1) When the Muslims pressed him for proof of his devotion to his faith he demanded trial by fire. How many people are disposed to do that?

2) He left a very favorable impression on the Muslim Caliph who asked him to pray for him on making up his mind between Islam and Christianity before he died (for a Muslim Caliph to ask for that means a person of singular charisma was with him).

3) He helped the poor when clerical corruption was rampant.

4) I have -personally- known cases of stigmata which were most assuredly not fake. A Stigmata makes a cross on a person's hands supposedly, why would Satan make a cross (See Philippians..."enemies of the cross") ?

A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov
The article in the link also explains why Francis of Assisi is not a saint.

Quote
The Orthodox Church does not include Francis of Assisi among its Saints. He was a fanatic Papist, lived after the separation of the Roman Catholic Church from Orthodoxy, and practiced a romantic and emotional spirituality foreign to genuine Orthodox spiritual traditions. One can indeed appreciate the literature attributed to Francis, as Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna has rightly pointed out, but devotion to him, let alone in the form of the veneration of his "Icons," is wholly un-Orthodox. We would hope that what you say about such in the OCA is exaggerated; if not, perhaps that jurisdiction's Greek Catholic roots are showing and need, to be sure, some trimming.

With regard to the Fathers of the Church, among whom no sober individual has—whatever his opinion of the man—ever included Nicholas Zernov, Francis of Assisi is not held in high esteem in Patristic writings. Characteristically, St. Ignaty (Brianchaninov), the famous ascetic Bishop recently Glorified by the Moscow Patriarchate, speaks of Francis' life in the context of spiritual delusion:

'When Francis was caught up to heaven,' says a writer of his life, 'God the Father, on seeing him, was for a moment in doubt to as [sic] to whom to give the preference, to His Son by nature or to His son by grace—Francis.' What can be more frightful or madder than this blasphemy, what can be sadder than this delusion[?]! [The Arena, Ch. 11]

For several centuries, various Orthodox intellectuals—among them, Nikos Kazantzakis (1885-1957), the famous Greek writer, and numerous Slavic men of letters (e.g., S. Sitianovich [1629-16701, L. Tolstoy [1828-1910], and many of the "Paris School" in the twentieth century)—have succumbed to the lure of a theatrical and romantic Western vision of sanctity largely unknown in the pre-Schism East or West (except as a symptom of spiritual delusion), but perfectly captured in the cultus of Francis of Assisi. Not only have these individuals contributed to the distortion of our Orthodox Faith, a distortion which still plagues the Church, but have sometimes betrayed the Church and lost their personal Faith. The kind of splenetic firmness that your question shows in calling untraditional Archbishop Chrysostomos' wholly traditional outlook on Francis of Assisi, we are obliged to say, is a first step in the process by which these individuals came to spiritual ruin. We would ask you and all those with a personal, emotional commitment—and especially a peevish one—to post-Schism Western notions of sanctity and to post-Schism Western "saints" to reflect on this observation.


Very weak article. They are claiming that a man who asked for trial by fire is not humble and did not put faith on the true God.
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2010, 04:38:22 AM »

If Francis of Assis can be criticized for the thing on the "lights" etc. , why can't I criticize the entire Hesychast movement and your Seraphim of Sarov?
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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2010, 05:13:45 AM »

If he is not a saint in your tradition why do you try to discredit him? What is the point in that? Just let it be. I will not try to discredit any saint here nor in any forum. I think we are missing the mark in doing so. So, lets stop talking about St. Francis and back to the topic of this particular thread.
We'll do so after a short prayer, the prayer of St. Francis Smiley



Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith ;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.
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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2010, 11:45:57 AM »

If he is not a saint in your tradition why do you try to discredit him? What is the point in that? Just let it be. I will not try to discredit any saint here nor in any forum. I think we are missing the mark in doing so. So, lets stop talking about St. Francis and back to the topic of this particular thread.
We'll do so after a short prayer, the prayer of St. Francis Smiley



Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith ;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

True, this thread isn't about Francis of Assisi, which, if discussion should continue, ought to be in it's own thread.

Though again, I'll have to say that Padre Pio simply cannot be a Saint if he indeed led people away from Orthodoxy. My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

As I said, it's ultimately up to God who is saved and who isn't. However, his choice of who is saved outside of the Church does not mean that organizations outside the Church are true or genuine expressions of Christianity. It only means that those specific people have been deemed worthy of the kingdom.
Padre Pio is not an Orthodox Saint and never will be. These people apostasized from the true faith because they were misled, either by their own bodies, or, heaven forbid, by Satan himself.
The Saints of God would never lead someone away from the Holy Orthodox faith. We are the true expression of Christianity and Orthodoxy is indeed the true Church. If the Chuch says Padre Pio and others like him are not Saints, we must trust the Church in her wisdom, as she is guided by the Holy Spirit, and is the body and bride of Christ.

This parish, as I said earlier, clearly had something missing in their parish. Whether it was a false-shepherd or simply sheep gone astray could be up for debate, but something went wrong, and these people have left the protection of the sheep-pen and forsaken their true shepherd because of deception from an outsider. Hopefully these sheep won't be consumed by the wolves, and hopefully they will return to the sheep-pen. We must pray for their safe return and for the souls of those who misled them.

I have to be very honest with you all... Catholicism is outside of Holy Orthodoxy, therefore, we affirm that it cannot be a true expression of the faith, but rather a distortion of the truth. Certainly there can be holy people outside of the One Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, but the Church is still the truth. I would affirm that one cannot really receive the Holy Spirit without being in the Church. The Church is the armor of God, put on by the faithful to combat Satan. We are given the tools to defeat him. Outside of the Church, you battle without armor, without true guidance. Satan's attacks can go directly to your very inner being. In the Church, we have the protection of the Lord. We still fight, but now we fight knowing that we have the protection and training needed. We also recognize that we have many others who are just like us that are fighting, or have fought the same fight, and have won.

You must remember, that we Orthodox are not liberal in our "ecumenical" beliefs. I was once a Protestant, and I was far from hostile to Roman Catholics. However, now that I'm in the Church, I recognize, that although there are many holy people in both traditions, that both traditions are flawed, misguided and lack the fullness of the truth. I love people from  both traditions, but I recognize that they simply are unable to attain the fullness of the faith without the Church. Those traditions are not on equal footing with Orthodoxy. It's not about intolerance, it's about standing up for whats right and true.

Padre Pio led people away from Holy Orthodoxy, it appears he did so both in his earthly life, and, if this was truly from him (which I doubt it was), then after his death as well. He cannot be a Saint, because the Saints of God would never lead someone away from his bride.
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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2010, 03:37:30 PM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

No, you get the consistet answer that whether they have or not doesn't concern us.
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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2010, 03:41:44 PM »

Quote
And I've left specific instructions that if I am on my own deathbed, only an Orthodox priest should be called for giving me confession, communion, or unction (and instructions on how to identify and contact a legitimate priest,
Yeah, that's a real danger, they may contact the monks at Esphigmenou, otherwise Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2010, 05:58:27 PM »

If he is not a saint in your tradition why do you try to discredit him? What is the point in that? Just let it be. I will not try to discredit any saint here nor in any forum. I think we are missing the mark in doing so. So, lets stop talking about St. Francis and back to the topic of this particular thread.
We'll do so after a short prayer, the prayer of St. Francis Smiley



Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith ;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

True, this thread isn't about Francis of Assisi, which, if discussion should continue, ought to be in it's own thread.

Though again, I'll have to say that Padre Pio simply cannot be a Saint if he indeed led people away from Orthodoxy. My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

As I said, it's ultimately up to God who is saved and who isn't. However, his choice of who is saved outside of the Church does not mean that organizations outside the Church are true or genuine expressions of Christianity. It only means that those specific people have been deemed worthy of the kingdom.
Padre Pio is not an Orthodox Saint and never will be. These people apostasized from the true faith because they were misled, either by their own bodies, or, heaven forbid, by Satan himself.
The Saints of God would never lead someone away from the Holy Orthodox faith. We are the true expression of Christianity and Orthodoxy is indeed the true Church. If the Chuch says Padre Pio and others like him are not Saints, we must trust the Church in her wisdom, as she is guided by the Holy Spirit, and is the body and bride of Christ.

This parish, as I said earlier, clearly had something missing in their parish. Whether it was a false-shepherd or simply sheep gone astray could be up for debate, but something went wrong, and these people have left the protection of the sheep-pen and forsaken their true shepherd because of deception from an outsider. Hopefully these sheep won't be consumed by the wolves, and hopefully they will return to the sheep-pen. We must pray for their safe return and for the souls of those who misled them.

I have to be very honest with you all... Catholicism is outside of Holy Orthodoxy, therefore, we affirm that it cannot be a true expression of the faith, but rather a distortion of the truth. Certainly there can be holy people outside of the One Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, but the Church is still the truth. I would affirm that one cannot really receive the Holy Spirit without being in the Church. The Church is the armor of God, put on by the faithful to combat Satan. We are given the tools to defeat him. Outside of the Church, you battle without armor, without true guidance. Satan's attacks can go directly to your very inner being. In the Church, we have the protection of the Lord. We still fight, but now we fight knowing that we have the protection and training needed. We also recognize that we have many others who are just like us that are fighting, or have fought the same fight, and have won.

You must remember, that we Orthodox are not liberal in our "ecumenical" beliefs. I was once a Protestant, and I was far from hostile to Roman Catholics. However, now that I'm in the Church, I recognize, that although there are many holy people in both traditions, that both traditions are flawed, misguided and lack the fullness of the truth. I love people from  both traditions, but I recognize that they simply are unable to attain the fullness of the faith without the Church. Those traditions are not on equal footing with Orthodoxy. It's not about intolerance, it's about standing up for whats right and true.

Padre Pio led people away from Holy Orthodoxy, it appears he did so both in his earthly life, and, if this was truly from him (which I doubt it was), then after his death as well. He cannot be a Saint, because the Saints of God would never lead someone away from his bride.


Phew, thank God your leadership does not have this extremist position which resembles pre-Vatican II Roman Catholics. The joint statements signed say otherwise.
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2010, 06:12:12 PM »

There are a few things that leave me a little puzzled about the op and some of the following commentary.  

1. Let us say the woman and others were in fact healed via Padre Pio. What does this mean? Does it mean he practiced the true faith and we should abandon Orthodoxy to follow his earthly faith tradition?  Would the same hold true of a Roman Catholic healed through an Orthodox Saint...does that translate into a mandate to change faiths in and of itself? It just doesn't seem a very stable criteria for conversion one way or the other in my opinion. Further how do we know that Padre Pio did this in order to draw them away. Maybe, if it was him, he did it out of mercy, but they misunderstood the meaning of the miracle with respect to communions. I know a young man who has been healed of partial paralysis through Yappese shamen/magic workers. It never created in me the least desire to follow his culture's old pacific pagan gods...that said the young man so healed is very glad not to be in a wheel chair anymore. We know, as Shakespeare says, the powers of darkness often try to "win us with honest trifles only to betray us in deepest consequence." We also know men can easily draw the wrong conclusions from the available evidence.

For what it is worth my own Southern Baptist grandmother from beyond the grave saved the life of her Orthodox convert granddaughter (my cousin) and her two cradle born Orthodox children. She told my cousin to pull her stroller out of the road, which so startled my cousin she jumped back on to the sidewalk...a mere second before a drunk driver ran the redlight and would have doubtless killed them all.  My cousin never understood that miracle as a reason to leave Orthodoxy but rather took it as a confirmation God had had mercy on Grandma and she had found rest among the saints.

2. With respect to Padre Pio and with Francis of Assisi, why don't we take our clue from St. Seraphim as was related above in the reference to the Bio written by Fr. Lazarus Moore.  We can agree there were unwise practices in Francis' spiritual life according to Orthodox mystical and aesetical standards. As much could probably be said about that of Padre Pio. But if we point out those deficiencies we should also note that St. Seraphim appeared side by side with Francis in the same dream, so they were not in different places. If the miracle attributed to Padre Pio is not a demonic delusion, can't we accept it at least as an intimation that he too has found mercy and rest with Christ and out of love still prays for those who ask him.  That doesn't necessarily mean he wants people to change faiths, nor does it mean it is appropriate to appeal to him within the corporate worship of the Church. But does that mean we can never ask anyone departed for their prayers as a private matter if we know they were not Orthodox Christians in their earthly lives. While we may argue need for general caution in cases like this, that is not the same as blanket prohibition. After all who among the Orthodox does not on occasion ask some dear devout relative to pray for them even if that person is not revealed as a saint in the Church.

I guess what I'm saying is since there is so much about this situation and these people we don't know, is it possible to express serious doubt as to the wisdom of their decision without categorically demonizing them in the process...to bite our tongues a little.  I know I know St. Nicholas boxed the ears of the heretic Arius...but I'm a long way from being a St. Nicholas and no one has volunteered an episcopal mitre for my head with its attendant pastoral responsibilities.

It all makes me wonder what the holy fathers and living sts. of Romania's monasteries make of this, what guidance they give in the face of such things.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:14:52 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2010, 08:19:13 PM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

No, you get the consistet answer that whether they have or not doesn't concern us.
If that were true you guys wouldn't mention us nor compare yourselves to us . You know, things like.. Oh we are not like the Roamn Catholics(Vatican to you)we have our Apostolic succession and our bishops blah blah...the Catholics do this but we do that. They say this but we say that..It gets really old fast and its a big turn off. I know you don't care but others in your church feel differently. I am sure of this. (forgive me for my bluntness, I forgive you for yours)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 08:26:10 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2010, 08:48:06 PM »

If he is not a saint in your tradition why do you try to discredit him? What is the point in that? Just let it be. I will not try to discredit any saint here nor in any forum. I think we are missing the mark in doing so. So, lets stop talking about St. Francis and back to the topic of this particular thread.
We'll do so after a short prayer, the prayer of St. Francis Smiley



Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon:
where there is doubt, faith ;
where there is despair, hope
where there is darkness, light
where there is sadness, joy
O divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

True, this thread isn't about Francis of Assisi, which, if discussion should continue, ought to be in it's own thread.

Though again, I'll have to say that Padre Pio simply cannot be a Saint if he indeed led people away from Orthodoxy. My point on stigmata still stands. It is something that is not seen in Orthodoxy, and many of the things that accompany the receiving of so-called stigmata certainly are not known to Orthodox ascetic practice/experience.

As I said, it's ultimately up to God who is saved and who isn't. However, his choice of who is saved outside of the Church does not mean that organizations outside the Church are true or genuine expressions of Christianity. It only means that those specific people have been deemed worthy of the kingdom.
Padre Pio is not an Orthodox Saint and never will be. These people apostasized from the true faith because they were misled, either by their own bodies, or, heaven forbid, by Satan himself.
The Saints of God would never lead someone away from the Holy Orthodox faith. We are the true expression of Christianity and Orthodoxy is indeed the true Church. If the Chuch says Padre Pio and others like him are not Saints, we must trust the Church in her wisdom, as she is guided by the Holy Spirit, and is the body and bride of Christ.

This parish, as I said earlier, clearly had something missing in their parish. Whether it was a false-shepherd or simply sheep gone astray could be up for debate, but something went wrong, and these people have left the protection of the sheep-pen and forsaken their true shepherd because of deception from an outsider. Hopefully these sheep won't be consumed by the wolves, and hopefully they will return to the sheep-pen. We must pray for their safe return and for the souls of those who misled them.

I have to be very honest with you all... Catholicism is outside of Holy Orthodoxy, therefore, we affirm that it cannot be a true expression of the faith, but rather a distortion of the truth. Certainly there can be holy people outside of the One Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, but the Church is still the truth. I would affirm that one cannot really receive the Holy Spirit without being in the Church. The Church is the armor of God, put on by the faithful to combat Satan. We are given the tools to defeat him. Outside of the Church, you battle without armor, without true guidance. Satan's attacks can go directly to your very inner being. In the Church, we have the protection of the Lord. We still fight, but now we fight knowing that we have the protection and training needed. We also recognize that we have many others who are just like us that are fighting, or have fought the same fight, and have won.

You must remember, that we Orthodox are not liberal in our "ecumenical" beliefs. I was once a Protestant, and I was far from hostile to Roman Catholics. However, now that I'm in the Church, I recognize, that although there are many holy people in both traditions, that both traditions are flawed, misguided and lack the fullness of the truth. I love people from  both traditions, but I recognize that they simply are unable to attain the fullness of the faith without the Church. Those traditions are not on equal footing with Orthodoxy. It's not about intolerance, it's about standing up for whats right and true.

Padre Pio led people away from Holy Orthodoxy, it appears he did so both in his earthly life, and, if this was truly from him (which I doubt it was), then after his death as well. He cannot be a Saint, because the Saints of God would never lead someone away from his bride.


Phew, thank God your leadership does not have this extremist position which resembles pre-Vatican II Roman Catholics. The joint statements signed say otherwise.

I don't think you understand... In our Liturgy it is said:
" Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders."

Just because someone is in the episcopacy doesn't mean everything they believe or say is canonical Orthodoxy. Certainly it ought to be, and we pray that it is the truth, but this isn't always the case.

This isn't the Roman Catholic church where the Pope is practically considered to be the messenger of God himself no matter what he says.

The two-lung theory is not a common Orthodox position.

Quote
I might begin by stating that there are a lot of rumors circulating on this issue, not the least of which is the rumor that the leaders of the Orthodox Church are fanatical in wanting a union with the Pope! No where has such a decision ever been made, and even a quick study of documents related to this matter produced by recent meetings, consultations and the like do not lend much credence to this. While we do pray "for the holy churches of God and the union of all" -- we must be committed to fulfilling the prayer of Our Lord on the eve of His death, "That all may be one" -- we see it in light of others reconciling and reuniting themselves to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which we profess to be in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=188&SID=3

The Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Movement

Branch Theory - OrthodoxWiki

Orthodox Christianity and The "Branch Theory"

Elder Arsenie Papacioc - On Ecumenism - YouTube

Orthodoxy is not as liberal as others on the issue of ecumenism and how Roman Catholicism relates to Orthodoxy. You think I'm extreme? You should meet some of the monks around the world (esp. on Mount Athos)... I'm not nearly as extreme as they are.
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2010, 09:47:35 PM »

Whenever we are discussing healing and its source, I think our policy should be to tread carefully, lest we blaspheme the Holy Spirit:

Quote from: Mark 3:22-29
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.  And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2010, 12:04:25 AM »


I can respect your opinion, and I certainly know that most Roman Catholics would feel the same way as you do. But we are discussing Orthodox who apostated, not Roman Catholics. Also we are on an Orthodox forum, so most people on this forum would see that RCC aren't recognized in our Church. If I were on a Roman Catholic forum, I probably would not be so frank and honest about the fact that RCC saints aren't Saints in the Orthodox Church.

They were great people, possibly saints (in the lower-case form), but certainly not Orthodox Saints. Therefore, it is wrong to seek for their intercession.
It would be wrong for me to seek intercession from my relatives, who although were great people, weren't Orthodox.

Certainly, even if they were saints in heaven, that doesn't give me the right to forsake the Church. The Roman Catholic sacraments aren't really valid, and the eucharist in the RCC certainly isn't valid. Same for the Saints. Even though the RCC is a Christian church, and although it was once a part of the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, it is no longer so. Therefore, it was wrong for these people to apostate to Roman Catholicism, no matter how convinced they were of Padre Pio's sainthood.

This isn't about how correct the RCC sacraments and faith is, it's about how these people forsook the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church of Christ.

As I said, even if they are saints, that doesn't "prove" Catholicism to be a part of the Church...
Yes, I know I am on Orthodox forum but I am in the Catholic section of the forum Grin
Now this about RC's not having valid sacraments, is this the consensus of the Orthodox Church? Because I have asked and I get different answers all the time.

No, you get the consistet answer that whether they have or not doesn't concern us.
If that were true you guys wouldn't mention us nor compare yourselves to us . You know, things like.. Oh we are not like the Roamn Catholics(Vatican to you)we have our Apostolic succession and our bishops blah blah...the Catholics do this but we do that. They say this but we say that..It gets really old fast and its a big turn off. I know you don't care but others in your church feel differently. I am sure of this. (forgive me for my bluntness, I forgive you for yours)

It is only because of a history of being classed as Protestants (the official classification of the US government, e.g. in the military, until I think the 50s), the queires "is that like Catholics" etc. in this country that it comes up at all.  The comparison is forced on us, which is understandable given people's points of reference.  This obsession with the "validity" of the Vatican's sacraments consumed-and consumes-a lot of bandwidth on places like CAF.

Note your own words: YOU asked about the "validity" (a concept foreign, like "valid but illicit," to us). 

When an Orthodox bishop was almost deposed, but was admonished instead, for communing with the Vatican's flock in Romania, the quesiton of whether it was really Our Lord or not I do not think came up.  It was simply put that the Orthodox, on pain of excommunication, does not take communion from the Vatican.
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2010, 05:27:42 PM »

Tangent on whether St. Gregory Palamas displayed stigmata split off and moved here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26215.0.html
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