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Author Topic: Christ and the Church, Husband and wife, sex!  (Read 1907 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mivac
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« on: February 25, 2010, 09:47:21 PM »

Ok, I don't know if I have spoken here of how I came to believe that the bread and wine is truly the Body and Blood of our Lord.  This is all part of my journey towards Orthodoxy even if it is in a particular odd way lol.

I had been contemplating the issue of the communion of the bread and body and the wine and blood with the issue of the image of marriage Paul gives and then says he was talking about Christ and His Church.  This may seem odd and even highly unorthodox, but I ask that you are patient because I see images and acts even revealing the truth and union, unity of the Lord and His bride.

As I looked at marriage, how it is the image of Christ and His Church and wondering how the two were one flesh, one body.  I believed that the communion with the highest form of worship of our Lord though only symbolic and rememberance.  Well as I contemplated on marriage I started to see connections, the coming together of the Husband and Wife as a form of communion.  Well that did not play well with symbolic only or rememberance only lol.  I began seeing elements of a type of worship/veneration,  deep love, commitment, rejoicing, thanksgiving, rememberance and even the giving of life of the husband to the wife, the husband giving of his flesh and she offering hers up to him, the two becoming one not just in spirit but also bodily.  The Husband and Wife already shared the same spirit, a oneness in spirit, a union in spirit, it was only during the maritial act the two became one in flesh also.  It was for me like seeing the Eucharist in a totally diffrent light, the husband literally giving of himself to the wife, which he does with his DNA in the seed.  The wife taking that life and forming new life, which grows and matures within her which is symbolic of all christians within her, that is within the Church.   Also the marital act can also build the bonds deeper if done in the right spirit between husband and wife, a closeness that no one else can share (side note: it also makes adultry far more disgusting when seeing things in this light).

There is more, but lol I can't always keep all the connections I see straight or there are just to many, so it makes it hard for me to communicate.

I know, I am going to get blasted for what I had seen, but this was how I came to know that the bread and wine of the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of our Lord.

Not:  I am not saying we have sex with our Lord.  I do think the Lord had a purpose and a reason for sex in marriage, to teach us and to reveal to us a deeper meaning.

Anyways, has anyone else, Church Father, Saint, etc., ever seen the Eucharist in such a light.... or is it darkness  Tongue

Mivac
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 10:01:22 PM by Mivac » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 11:30:34 PM »

Eph 5:22-33 does present quite strongly marriage as an image of how Christ relates to His Church. This is echoed in some of Christ's parables and the rest of what Christ taught about sex makes sense when looked at from this perspective. I personally ses it as a metaphor where baptism and chrismation are the wedding where husband and wife are joined together, and receiving communion is the continual celebration of and living in that union. St Paul does write "and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." in a passage where he is constantly alternating between marriage and the bond between Christ and the Church. I don't take this to the extreme literal like you said, but it does present an image of the union, love, trust, and intimacy, and faithfulness that we should all have with Christ. Just my opinion.

Here is a link to a cpmmentary on that passage by St John Chrysostom. Please forgive me for not giving a good quote, but the commentary is too long to quote and I can't seem to find a short quote that will give an accurate summary of the entire commentary.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html

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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2010, 12:27:07 AM »

I definitely agree with you. The realities of sex and Communion are very similar, though obviously different enough such that we can say that Communion is not having sex with Jesus.
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 12:32:20 AM »

I don't take this to the extreme literal like you said

Seeing as how he/she explicitly stated that they believed that this did not mean that we have sex with Jesus, I don't think it would be accurate to say that they are taking it in the "extreme literal".
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 12:33:01 AM »

As to some who do take it rather literally:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_God_%28religious_group%29#Loving_Jesus

 laugh
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samkim
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2010, 02:03:13 PM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko often quotes Roman Catholic St. Thérèse de Lisieux, who graphicly descibed Christ's communion with His bride as necrophilic (something like, "the cross is the marriage bed where Christ consummates his marriage with his dead, stinking bride").
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주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
Mivac
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2010, 09:35:32 AM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko often quotes Roman Catholic St. Thérèse de Lisieux, who graphicly descibed Christ's communion with His bride as necrophilic (something like, "the cross is the marriage bed where Christ consummates his marriage with his dead, stinking bride").

Yikes, That is completely not what I thought.  It's one thing to describe a loving relationship, union and oneness in the context of marriage and how it relates to the relationship to the Lord and His Church, but what Therese says is just down right morbid.   
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 11:19:59 AM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko often quotes Roman Catholic St. Thérèse de Lisieux, who graphicly descibed Christ's communion with His bride as necrophilic (something like, "the cross is the marriage bed where Christ consummates his marriage with his dead, stinking bride").

Yikes, That is completely not what I thought.  It's one thing to describe a loving relationship, union and oneness in the context of marriage and how it relates to the relationship to the Lord and His Church, but what Therese says is just down right morbid.   

I've heard orgasm refered to as la petite mort "the little death" in French.
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Mivac
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 09:38:28 PM »

Fr. Thomas Hopko often quotes Roman Catholic St. Thérèse de Lisieux, who graphicly descibed Christ's communion with His bride as necrophilic (something like, "the cross is the marriage bed where Christ consummates his marriage with his dead, stinking bride").

Yikes, That is completely not what I thought.  It's one thing to describe a loving relationship, union and oneness in the context of marriage and how it relates to the relationship to the Lord and His Church, but what Therese says is just down right morbid.  

I've heard orgasm refered to as la petite mort "the little death" in French.

I have been contemplating what was said by St. Thérèse de Lisieux and I think I see his point but it brings up to many old calvinist views for me e.g. total depravity, etc.  I just can't seem to see the Church as ever dead and stinking dead at that.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 09:42:13 PM by Mivac » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 12:12:53 AM »

“Buried with Him in baptism, in which also you were resurrected with Him through the Faith of the operation of God, who raised Him from the dead” Colossians 2.12 (cf. Rom 6.4, 1 Peter 3.21).   Is the Bride which has had part in the first resurrection a "stinking corpse"? 
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