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Author Topic: OO Georgian  (Read 2226 times) Average Rating: 0
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deusveritasest
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« on: February 23, 2010, 05:23:57 PM »

Given the discussions that have been had about the Georgians on these boards, would OO consider the Georgians to have been Oriental Orthodox through to the early 7th century?
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 05:51:08 PM »

Certainly, and as far as I can see they had a significant input from Syrian OO monks who fled that way, and St Peter the Iberian was a Georgian prince. They were OO all the time they were under the influence of Armenia, and at least some element of their Chalcedonianism was a desire to align themselves with the Byzantine Empire and independence.

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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 08:10:48 PM »

Is there hostility between Armenians and Georgians?
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Salpy
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 09:21:20 PM »

It's been discussed in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11487.0.html#top

There is no need to bring it up here.  Smiley
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 09:47:49 PM »



Actually, just today I purchased a book from my church bookstore called Lives of the Georgian Saints.  This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church that I will one day be able to commune in.  Their architecture reminds me of Armenian churches as well.  There seem to be a lot of similarities between the churches, although the Georgians don't seem to have the Latin features such as the Western mitre.

Anyway, I hope the relationship between the churches improves soon.
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 09:51:30 PM »

I've often wondered if the similarity of some Georgian iconography to some of the Ethiopian and Coptic iconography is coincidental.
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 09:56:51 PM »

I've often wondered if the similarity of some Georgian iconography to some of the Ethiopian and Coptic iconography is coincidental.

Well, perhaps coincidence isn't the best word, as it is a co-incidence.  Did you mean accidental?

Putting my grammar hat away, I think there is a direct correlation.  The Georgian Church was non-Chalcedonian until the 7th century, and as others have indicated many Syrian monks fled to the region.  The Georgian Orthodox Church has tons of influence from the Oriental communion.
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 10:30:56 PM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 12:07:53 AM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.

Not to mention a writing system so cool it looks like it came straight out of Lord of the Rings!
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 12:11:45 AM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.

Not to mention a writing system so cool it looks like it came straight out of Lord of the Rings!

Oh yeah.  Smiley
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 12:32:01 AM »



Actually, just today I purchased a book from my church bookstore called Lives of the Georgian Saints.

I just want to recommend that everyone pick up a copy of this book.  It is one of the most beautiful books I own, and it's only $29.00 USD.  It's cloth bound (hardcover), and every page is full color.  It is chalk full of exquisite iconography as well as numerous architectural photos.  Most importantly, it features every single Georgian saint and important relic throughout the full calendar year.  It's available from St. Herman of Alaska Press in Platina.  Anyone enamored with this unique Orthodox culture simply must buy this book.
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 05:09:04 AM »

The events during 6th-7th centuries were much complicated than that. Initially while there was still a lot of disputes about Christ's nature in 506 Georgian, Armenian and Albanian Churches got together in a council of Dvini. On this council they supported conciliatory position which Byzantine emperor's had at that time. Soon Byzantines took Chalcedonian position an Persians non-Chalcedonian. These two would alternate in securing there position within Caucasian region. So whenever Georgians allied with Byzantium than they were Chalcedonian mostly. For example, from 570 to 604 Georgia was under the influence of Byzantium and Georgian Church was Chalcedonian. During this time it was independetn form Armenian influence. During 7th century things get more complicated. One thing deserving mentioning is this: from 599 to 614/616 the Cathalicos of Georgia was Kyrion I. He was Georgian in origin. But he was raised in Armenia. He actually was one of the bishops there - consequently he was non-Chalcedonian. With the help of Armenians (hoping that Kyrion would convert Georgians to Chalcedonian position) he succeeded to the position of Cathalicos. But his most improtant political move was to unite Georgians (and also non-Georgian population of Georgia) under one Chalcedonian religion and he succeeded in that. In short things were quite complicated that time.

As far as Assyrian fathers go, the opinions are diverse here too. Some Georgian historians thing that they were Chalcedonians. Some think they were non-Chalcedonians. For me they were holiest ascetics who re-invigorated Christianity in Georgia (at that time when they came in Georgia paganism was strengthening). They are venerated and glorified in Georgia. For simple believers like me it does not matter what was there theology. They thought us how to live holy life - that is most important. Actually since 13 Assyrian fathers came and brought monasticism with them, monasticism started to thrive in Georgia. Many monasteries are named after these holy men.
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2011, 01:37:56 PM »

The events during 6th-7th centuries were much complicated than that. Initially while there was still a lot of disputes about Christ's nature in 506 Georgian, Armenian and Albanian Churches got together in a council of Dvini. On this council they supported conciliatory position which Byzantine emperor's had at that time. Soon Byzantines took Chalcedonian position an Persians non-Chalcedonian. These two would alternate in securing there position within Caucasian region. So whenever Georgians allied with Byzantium than they were Chalcedonian mostly. For example, from 570 to 604 Georgia was under the influence of Byzantium and Georgian Church was Chalcedonian. During this time it was independetn form Armenian influence. During 7th century things get more complicated. One thing deserving mentioning is this: from 599 to 614/616 the Cathalicos of Georgia was Kyrion I. He was Georgian in origin. But he was raised in Armenia. He actually was one of the bishops there - consequently he was non-Chalcedonian. With the help of Armenians (hoping that Kyrion would convert Georgians to Chalcedonian position) he succeeded to the position of Cathalicos. But his most improtant political move was to unite Georgians (and also non-Georgian population of Georgia) under one Chalcedonian religion and he succeeded in that. In short things were quite complicated that time.

As far as Assyrian fathers go, the opinions are diverse here too. Some Georgian historians thing that they were Chalcedonians. Some think they were non-Chalcedonians. For me they were holiest ascetics who re-invigorated Christianity in Georgia (at that time when they came in Georgia paganism was strengthening). They are venerated and glorified in Georgia. For simple believers like me it does not matter what was there theology. They thought us how to live holy life - that is most important. Actually since 13 Assyrian fathers came and brought monasticism with them, monasticism started to thrive in Georgia. Many monasteries are named after these holy men.
Assyrian or Syrian/Syriac?
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2011, 01:55:28 PM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.

Not to mention a writing system so cool it looks like it came straight out of Lord of the Rings!

What does it look like?
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2011, 02:52:13 PM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.

Not to mention a writing system so cool it looks like it came straight out of Lord of the Rings!

What does it look like?

ქართული დამწერლობავიკიპედიიდან, თავისუფალი ქართულენოვანი ენციკლოპედიიდან
გადასვლა: ნავიგაცია, ძიება
ქართული დამწერლობა
ტიპი: ანბანი
ენები: ქართული, მეგრული, სვანური, ლაზური (ლათინურთან ერთად)
შექმნა ფარნავაზ I (სავარაუდოდ)
დროის პერიოდი: 1. ძვ. წ. III ს. [1]
2. ახ. წ. III - IV სს. არქეოლოგიური მასალის საფუძველზე.
წინამორბედი დამწერლობები:
ქართული დამწერლობა
 
ქართული დამწერლობა — ანბანური ტიპის თავისთავადი, თვითმყოფადი სისტემა, რომელსაც ქართველური ენები (ძირითადად ქართული) იყენებს, დროგამოშვებით კი სხვა კავკასიური ენებიც (მათ შორის ოსური და აფხაზური ენები 1940-იან წლებში). თანამედროვე ანბანს 33 ასო აქვს, ძველ ქართულ ანბანში კი 38 ასო-ნიშანი იყო, რომელთაგან ხუთი თანამედროვე ქართულში აღარ გამოიყენება. ქვემოთ მოყვანილ ცხრილში ნაცრისფრად აღნიშნულია ასოები, რომლებიც ამჟამად არ გამოიყენება. ქართული გადმოცემის თანახმად, ქართული დამწერლობა იბერიის პირველმა მეფემ — ფარნავაზ I-მა შექმნა.

სექციების სია [დამალვა]
1 ისტორია
1.1 ქართული დამწერლობის ისტორიული სახეები
1.1.1 ასომთავრული
1.1.2 ნუსხური
1.1.3 მხედრული
1.2 ქართული დამწერლობის ილიასეული რეფორმა
2 ანბანი
2.1 რიცხვითი მნიშვნელობები
2.2 დამატებითი ასო-ნიშნები
3 კალიგრაფია
3.1 ლიგატურები
3.2 ქარაგმები
4 საბეჭდი შრიფტები
4.1 ქართული დამწერლობის ასახვა კომპიუტერულ სისტემებში
5 იხილეთ ასევე
6 ლიტერატურა
7 სქოლიო
8 რესურსები ინტერნეტში
 

 ისტორია [რედაქტირება]
ქართული ასომთავრული წარწერა დავით გარეჯის მონასტრის ეკლესიის კარებზე.ქართული დამწერლობის შემოღების თარიღზე მიმანიშნებელი ზუსტი და ერთმნიშვნელოვანი წყარო არ არსებობს. XI საუკუნის ქართველი ისტორიკოსი ლეონტი მროველი მას ფარნავაზ I-ს მიაწერს, ძვ. წ. III საუკუნეში, თუმცა ამის დამადასტურებელი უფრო ადრინდელი საბუთი არ არის.[2] ქართული ლიტერატურის ჩვენამდე მოღწეული უძველესი ძეგლი „შუშანიკის წა
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2011, 05:41:29 PM »

Lobio recipe?  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2011, 02:22:08 AM »

This particular church really does have a unique iconographic style and history.  I like how they stick out so much from the other Orthodox churches.  It's almost like an Oriental church...

I have a great appreciation for the Georgian church for essentially the same reasons. I also think that they have probably one of the most beautiful traditions of sacred music in Christendom.

Not to mention a writing system so cool it looks like it came straight out of Lord of the Rings!

What does it look like?

ქართული დამწერლობავიკიპედიიდან, თავისუფალი ქართულენოვანი ენციკლოპედიიდან
გადასვლა: ნავიგაცია, ძიება
ქართული დამწერლობა
ტიპი: ანბანი
ენები: ქართული, მეგრული, სვანური, ლაზური (ლათინურთან ერთად)
შექმნა ფარნავაზ I (სავარაუდოდ)
დროის პერიოდი: 1. ძვ. წ. III ს. [1]
2. ახ. წ. III - IV სს. არქეოლოგიური მასალის საფუძველზე.
წინამორბედი დამწერლობები:
ქართული დამწერლობა
 
ქართული დამწერლობა — ანბანური ტიპის თავისთავადი, თვითმყოფადი სისტემა, რომელსაც ქართველური ენები (ძირითადად ქართული) იყენებს, დროგამოშვებით კი სხვა კავკასიური ენებიც (მათ შორის ოსური და აფხაზური ენები 1940-იან წლებში). თანამედროვე ანბანს 33 ასო აქვს, ძველ ქართულ ანბანში კი 38 ასო-ნიშანი იყო, რომელთაგან ხუთი თანამედროვე ქართულში აღარ გამოიყენება. ქვემოთ მოყვანილ ცხრილში ნაცრისფრად აღნიშნულია ასოები, რომლებიც ამჟამად არ გამოიყენება. ქართული გადმოცემის თანახმად, ქართული დამწერლობა იბერიის პირველმა მეფემ — ფარნავაზ I-მა შექმნა.

სექციების სია [დამალვა]
1 ისტორია
1.1 ქართული დამწერლობის ისტორიული სახეები
1.1.1 ასომთავრული
1.1.2 ნუსხური
1.1.3 მხედრული
1.2 ქართული დამწერლობის ილიასეული რეფორმა
2 ანბანი
2.1 რიცხვითი მნიშვნელობები
2.2 დამატებითი ასო-ნიშნები
3 კალიგრაფია
3.1 ლიგატურები
3.2 ქარაგმები
4 საბეჭდი შრიფტები
4.1 ქართული დამწერლობის ასახვა კომპიუტერულ სისტემებში
5 იხილეთ ასევე
6 ლიტერატურა
7 სქოლიო
8 რესურსები ინტერნეტში
 

 ისტორია [რედაქტირება]
ქართული ასომთავრული წარწერა დავით გარეჯის მონასტრის ეკლესიის კარებზე.ქართული დამწერლობის შემოღების თარიღზე მიმანიშნებელი ზუსტი და ერთმნიშვნელოვანი წყარო არ არსებობს. XI საუკუნის ქართველი ისტორიკოსი ლეონტი მროველი მას ფარნავაზ I-ს მიაწერს, ძვ. წ. III საუკუნეში, თუმცა ამის დამადასტურებელი უფრო ადრინდელი საბუთი არ არის.[2] ქართული ლიტერატურის ჩვენამდე მოღწეული უძველესი ძეგლი „შუშანიკის წ

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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ativan
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Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Georgian Orthodox Church
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Fr. Gabrieli Of Mtskheta


« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 11:53:55 PM »

The events during 6th-7th centuries were much complicated than that. Initially while there was still a lot of disputes about Christ's nature in 506 Georgian, Armenian and Albanian Churches got together in a council of Dvini. On this council they supported conciliatory position which Byzantine emperor's had at that time. Soon Byzantines took Chalcedonian position an Persians non-Chalcedonian. These two would alternate in securing there position within Caucasian region. So whenever Georgians allied with Byzantium than they were Chalcedonian mostly. For example, from 570 to 604 Georgia was under the influence of Byzantium and Georgian Church was Chalcedonian. During this time it was independetn form Armenian influence. During 7th century things get more complicated. One thing deserving mentioning is this: from 599 to 614/616 the Cathalicos of Georgia was Kyrion I. He was Georgian in origin. But he was raised in Armenia. He actually was one of the bishops there - consequently he was non-Chalcedonian. With the help of Armenians (hoping that Kyrion would convert Georgians to Chalcedonian position) he succeeded to the position of Cathalicos. But his most improtant political move was to unite Georgians (and also non-Georgian population of Georgia) under one Chalcedonian religion and he succeeded in that. In short things were quite complicated that time.

As far as Assyrian fathers go, the opinions are diverse here too. Some Georgian historians thing that they were Chalcedonians. Some think they were non-Chalcedonians. For me they were holiest ascetics who re-invigorated Christianity in Georgia (at that time when they came in Georgia paganism was strengthening). They are venerated and glorified in Georgia. For simple believers like me it does not matter what was there theology. They thought us how to live holy life - that is most important. Actually since 13 Assyrian fathers came and brought monasticism with them, monasticism started to thrive in Georgia. Many monasteries are named after these holy men.
Assyrian or Syrian/Syriac?
Sorry responding to your question so late but I did not follow to this thread, completely forgot about it. We say in Georgian "Asureli" which translates into Assyrian but it seems to me that sometimes these two words are used interchangeably and sometime they carry different meanings. In the case of Saint Ioane Zedazneli, who was educated in Antioch, and 12 other saints we say Assyrian (Asureli).

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Quote
Lobio recipe?
Smiley No, if you're asking about the article above, that ialmisry linked, then that article talks about Georgian alphabet and its stages.

jnorm888
The Alphabet ialmisry pointed to is the latest (stage in development) alphabet which is called mkhedruli (მხედრული) meaning "alphabet for secular people" or "for knights", since there are 2 more different alphabets (earlier ones) which were used only by priesthood either mostly while writing religious books (and this one was called nuskhuri [ნუსხური]) or writing on the walls of Churches and Cathedrals (this was called asomtavruli [ასომთავრული]).

Here's how The earliest alphabet (asomtavruli) looks like:
Ⴀ Ⴁ Ⴂ Ⴃ Ⴄ Ⴅ Ⴆ Ⴡ Ⴇ Ⴈ Ⴉ Ⴊ Ⴋ Ⴌ Ⴢ Ⴍ Ⴎ Ⴏ Ⴐ Ⴑ Ⴒ Ⴣ Ⴓ Ⴔ Ⴕ Ⴖ Ⴗ Ⴘ Ⴙ Ⴚ Ⴛ Ⴜ Ⴝ Ⴞ Ⴤ Ⴟ Ⴠ Ⴥ

And here's how middle stage alphabet (nuskhuri) looks like:


Asomtavruli and nuskhuri together are called khutsuri, which stand for "for priesthood".
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