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Shlomlokh
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« on: December 09, 2008, 04:22:41 PM »

Hello all!

This is probably my third or fourth posting here, as I have been lurking a bit. I am hoping for some advice and prayers from the wonderful community here.

Yesterday a little after 12 noon during the feast of the Immaculate Conception at Mass, I realized that I could not in good conscience remain a Catholic. I reject the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, Papal Infallibility and other theological additions to the Apostolic Faith outright. Actually, I have held these beliefs of rejecting them for a while yet did not know what to do. I have felt the Holy Spirit nudging at me for a while, especially since I went to a Divine Liturgy two months ago. Yesterday during Mass it hit me, of all places. I nearly wept because two years ago I became Catholic believing firmly that the Catholic Church upheld the Truth. Now I know that it has to have been Orthodoxy that has upheld it and continues to and will uphold it unto the ages.

My situation is a little unique, though I am sure it has probably come up here a few times. I am 19 and a freshman at Ave Maria University in Naples, FL. I love the school and the people are just as friendly as can be, but it's going to cause some problems (I am willing to take the risk though. I prefer the Truth over people's opinions of me). I also have no car, which means no way of getting to Divine Liturgy at the local Antiochian parish, which is 15 miles away or so. I am going home to Virginia for winter break on Saturday and will be able to attend the local Orthodox (Greek) parish for a few weeks. There is also a Bulgarian Orthodox mission in town as well. Yet, I do not know what to do when break is over. Also, things will be hard with my room mates and friends here as everyone is devoutly and emphatically Latin. Anyone have any suggestions that may have been in this situation?

It's going to be a rough road ahead, but through God's grace I'll be able to make the journey. Any help offered would be appreciated! Please keep me in your prayers!

God bless,
Andrew
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 04:55:00 PM »

I would visit your local Orthodox church while you are home, and have a talk with the priest while you are there.  He will be a good advisor in how to proceed. 

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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 05:12:57 PM »

Hello all!

This is probably my third or fourth posting here, as I have been lurking a bit. I am hoping for some advice and prayers from the wonderful community here.

Yesterday a little after 12 noon during the feast of the Immaculate Conception at Mass, I realized that I could not in good conscience remain a Catholic. I reject the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, Papal Infallibility and other theological additions to the Apostolic Faith outright. Actually, I have held these beliefs of rejecting them for a while yet did not know what to do. I have felt the Holy Spirit nudging at me for a while, especially since I went to a Divine Liturgy two months ago. Yesterday during Mass it hit me, of all places. I nearly wept because two years ago I became Catholic believing firmly that the Catholic Church upheld the Truth. Now I know that it has to have been Orthodoxy that has upheld it and continues to and will uphold it unto the ages.

My situation is a little unique, though I am sure it has probably come up here a few times. I am 19 and a freshman at Ave Maria University in Naples, FL. I love the school and the people are just as friendly as can be, but it's going to cause some problems (I am willing to take the risk though. I prefer the Truth over people's opinions of me). I also have no car, which means no way of getting to Divine Liturgy at the local Antiochian parish, which is 15 miles away or so. I am going home to Virginia for winter break on Saturday and will be able to attend the local Orthodox (Greek) parish for a few weeks. There is also a Bulgarian Orthodox mission in town as well. Yet, I do not know what to do when break is over. Also, things will be hard with my room mates and friends here as everyone is devoutly and emphatically Latin. Anyone have any suggestions that may have been in this situation?

It's going to be a rough road ahead, but through God's grace I'll be able to make the journey. Any help offered would be appreciated! Please keep me in your prayers!

God bless,
Andrew

After you talk to the priest at home (or maybe before) I'd email Fr. Shaheen at St. Paul's (I think that's the parish in Naples).   I am sure something can be worked out with someone.  Odds are someone from the parish passes by AM on the way to Church.

You say that you converted to the Maronites.  May I ask, what were you before?

My priest Fr. Pat Reardon knows a number of people in the Antiochean archdiocese.  I was only to the Western Rite Parish in Eustis when in FL.  PM me if you like.

And you are right, it has happened before.  I converted at the same age while going as a Freshman to the University of Chicago.
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 05:39:01 PM »

After you talk to the priest at home (or maybe before) I'd email Fr. Shaheen at St. Paul's (I think that's the parish in Naples).   I am sure something can be worked out with someone.  Odds are someone from the parish passes by AM on the way to Church.

You say that you converted to the Maronites.  May I ask, what were you before?

My priest Fr. Pat Reardon knows a number of people in the Antiochean archdiocese.  I was only to the Western Rite Parish in Eustis when in FL.  PM me if you like.

And you are right, it has happened before.  I converted at the same age while going as a Freshman to the University of Chicago.

Shlomo Isa,

Thanks for your reply. I visited St. Paul's in October and I loved the liturgy. I sent Fr. Shaheen an email earlier today explaining my situation. I did not exactly become a Maronite, but I was about to apply for a canonical transfer. I suppose I am still canonically a Latin. Please keep me in your prayers! Can you recommend books, whether they be about converts or prayer books, or just anything that could help me get more acclimated with Orthodoxy?

Andrew
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 05:42:42 PM »

You say you have no car and the Orthodox Church is 15 miles away. Well what you could do is call the priest and ask if he knew anyone that could give you a ride.  That way you could get to the Orthodox Church for services.  There maybe someone who goes past your school, works at your school, goes to your school that would give you a ride to the church.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 08:31:45 PM »

After you talk to the priest at home (or maybe before) I'd email Fr. Shaheen at St. Paul's (I think that's the parish in Naples).   I am sure something can be worked out with someone.  Odds are someone from the parish passes by AM on the way to Church.

You say that you converted to the Maronites.  May I ask, what were you before?

My priest Fr. Pat Reardon knows a number of people in the Antiochean archdiocese.  I was only to the Western Rite Parish in Eustis when in FL.  PM me if you like.

And you are right, it has happened before.  I converted at the same age while going as a Freshman to the University of Chicago.

Shlomo Isa,

Thanks for your reply. I visited St. Paul's in October and I loved the liturgy. I sent Fr. Shaheen an email earlier today explaining my situation. I did not exactly become a Maronite, but I was about to apply for a canonical transfer. I suppose I am still canonically a Latin. Please keep me in your prayers! Can you recommend books, whether they be about converts or prayer books, or just anything that could help me get more acclimated with Orthodoxy?

Andrew


Shlomo lokh (Syriac was my second language for the Doctorate).

As far as books, I would recommend Bulgakov's "The Orthodox Church," the book that helped convert me (it is still recommended by the same synod that condemned Bulgakov's heresy, little if any that appears in this work).

The little red prayer book of the Antiocheans is a favorite.  But a very good one is a prayer book published by the Romanian monestary, an English translation of a work by a abbot in Greece: it is a horologion (Book of Hours) that is an adaptation of that seven hours of prayer for use by layman (I don't like the translation, but what I have done is use the selctions in Arabic, the language I usually pray in.  One could use more traditional English translations if you want). I don't have my copy right on me (I don't use the English), but if can I'll get it later this week and give you the title.

I'll try to get back on this: right now I'm about to leave for my son's Christmas pangeant.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 08:47:22 PM »

Andrew,

I don't have much help to offer, though we have put you on our prayer list. I was in a similar situation about 9 years ago, when I was attending the college affiliated with my denomination as a Bible Studies major, and realised halfway through my first year there that I couldn't in good conscience affirm sola scriptura, faith alone, etc. It sent me for a loop at the time, though you seem to be in a better situation as you know where you are ready to move on to. God bless you on your journey!
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2008, 08:55:30 PM »

Can you recommend books, whether they be about converts or prayer books, or just anything that could help me get more acclimated with Orthodoxy?

I don't know what Maronite spirituality is like, but for Latins who want to get more acquainted with Orthodoxy I usually recommend The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan (then Bishop) Kallistos and/or The Mountain of Silence By Kyriacos Markides.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2008, 10:30:29 PM »


I don't know what Maronite spirituality is like, but for Latins who want to get more acquainted with Orthodoxy I usually recommend The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan (then Bishop) Kallistos and/or The Mountain of Silence By Kyriacos Markides.

Thank you very much. I managed to find in my school's library "The Truths We Hold" from St. Tikhon's monastery. It seems to be an overall introduction to Orthodoxy. Is this a good book? The hardest part will be breaking the news to my Maronite community, although I believe my priest will not be surprised as he somewhat pushed me in this direction. Maronite spirituality, without the Latinizations, is quite similar to Byzantine, yet at the same time very Syriac in following St. Ephrem, St. Jacob of Sarug, St. Theodoret, St. Simeon Stylites, et al.

I am also a little worried of what my parents may think, because 2 years ago I became Catholic. They might think I'm crazy and can't make up my mind. Please pray for this situation. They are still Protestant along with my younger sister. Please pray for their conversion as well.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 10:55:07 PM »


I don't know what Maronite spirituality is like, but for Latins who want to get more acquainted with Orthodoxy I usually recommend The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan (then Bishop) Kallistos and/or The Mountain of Silence By Kyriacos Markides.

Thank you very much. I managed to find in my school's library "The Truths We Hold" from St. Tikhon's monastery. It seems to be an overall introduction to Orthodoxy. Is this a good book? The hardest part will be breaking the news to my Maronite community, although I believe my priest will not be surprised as he somewhat pushed me in this direction. Maronite spirituality, without the Latinizations, is quite similar to Byzantine, yet at the same time very Syriac in following St. Ephrem, St. Jacob of Sarug, St. Theodoret, St. Simeon Stylites, et al.

I am also a little worried of what my parents may think, because 2 years ago I became Catholic. They might think I'm crazy and can't make up my mind. Please pray for this situation. They are still Protestant along with my younger sister. Please pray for their conversion as well.

In Christ,
Andrew

If it is the book I am thinking of, "The Truths We Hold" is good, as is Archbishop Paul's "Feast of Faith," and "The Faith We Hold."  The is a book "Introducing the Orthodox Church" or some such title, by Fr. Coniaris or some such Greek priest (I don't recall the details) that is not very devotional, but has a lot of insight and useful information.  I'll see if I can get the exact title.

Which, btw, the book I mentioned is "A Manual of the Hours of the Orthodox Church" compiled by Archmandrite Cherubim (Monastery of the Paraclete) 2nd edition 1998, Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery (I erred on the which monastery published it).

Also, tune in to Ancient Faith Radio: it has both liturgical music and podcasts on the Faith.  (in the interests of full disclosure: I know those who run the station quite well.  Most are fellow parishoners, and I knew the founder John Maddex during his fanastic journey from running Moody Bible Radio to Orthodox radio).


A good book you might read, and might help your Protestant family (what type?, if I may ask) is "No Man Ever Spoke Like This: the Great I AMs of Jesus," by Fr. Coniaris.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=NOMA100

I assume that you are reading the Fathers, and perhaps have an Orthodox Study Bible.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 11:03:24 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 11:24:25 PM »


If it is the book I am thinking of, "The Truths We Hold" is good, as is Archbishop Paul's "Feast of Faith," and "The Faith We Hold."  The is a book "Introducing the Orthodox Church" or some such title, by Fr. Coniaris or some such Greek priest (I don't recall the details) that is not very devotional, but has a lot of insight and useful information.  I'll see if I can get the exact title.

Which, btw, the book I mentioned is "A Manual of the Hours of the Orthodox Church" compiled by Archmandrite Cherubim (Monastery of the Paraclete) 2nd edition 1998, Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery (I erred on the which monastery published it).

Also, tune in to Ancient Faith Radio: it has both liturgical music and podcasts on the Faith.  (in the interests of full disclosure: I know those who run the station quite well.  Most are fellow parishoners, and I knew the founder John Maddex during his fanastic journey from running Moody Bible Radio to Orthodox radio).


A good book you might read, and might help your Protestant family (what type?, if I may ask) is "No Man Ever Spoke Like This: the Great I AMs of Jesus," by Fr. Coniaris.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=NOMA100

I assume that you are reading the Fathers, and perhaps have an Orthodox Study Bible.


Shlomo,

I will see what I can do about buying the prayer book. I listen to Ancient Faith Radio almost daily and have been for the past 3 months, but had to do so quietly so my Latin room mates would not harass me. Grin I do not own an Orthodox Study Bible as I have heard mixed reviews on it. I am looking into the version from Holy Apostles Convent. Perhaps it's not too late for me to put some of this stuff on my Christmas list? Wink

My parents and sister are Methodists, but my father was raised Latin Catholic until the fallout of Vatican II where he got swept into some pseudo-Christian group called the World Wide Church of God. He and my mother met there and were married in '87 and then became Methodists when I was 7 in '97. I would love for my family to enter Holy Orthodoxy. Do you have any suggestions for books for them? Neither of them are very avid readers, but I might be able to share something that might pique their interest, God willing. Thanks again brother Isa.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 11:47:04 PM »


If it is the book I am thinking of, "The Truths We Hold" is good, as is Archbishop Paul's "Feast of Faith," and "The Faith We Hold."  The is a book "Introducing the Orthodox Church" or some such title, by Fr. Coniaris or some such Greek priest (I don't recall the details) that is not very devotional, but has a lot of insight and useful information.  I'll see if I can get the exact title.

Which, btw, the book I mentioned is "A Manual of the Hours of the Orthodox Church" compiled by Archmandrite Cherubim (Monastery of the Paraclete) 2nd edition 1998, Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery (I erred on the which monastery published it).

Also, tune in to Ancient Faith Radio: it has both liturgical music and podcasts on the Faith.  (in the interests of full disclosure: I know those who run the station quite well.  Most are fellow parishoners, and I knew the founder John Maddex during his fanastic journey from running Moody Bible Radio to Orthodox radio).


A good book you might read, and might help your Protestant family (what type?, if I may ask) is "No Man Ever Spoke Like This: the Great I AMs of Jesus," by Fr. Coniaris.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=NOMA100

I assume that you are reading the Fathers, and perhaps have an Orthodox Study Bible.


Shlomo,

I will see what I can do about buying the prayer book. I listen to Ancient Faith Radio almost daily and have been for the past 3 months, but had to do so quietly so my Latin room mates would not harass me. Grin I do not own an Orthodox Study Bible as I have heard mixed reviews on it.
It has its faults and drawbacks, but it is a step above what we had before, which was NOTHING.
Quote
I am looking into the version from Holy Apostles Convent.
I haven't had a chance to examine, so I can't comment.  I've only seen commentary on it in condemnation of the OSB.

Quote
Perhaps it's not too late for me to put some of this stuff on my Christmas list? Wink

 Grin
Quote
My parents and sister are Methodists, but my father was raised Latin Catholic until the fallout of Vatican II where he got swept into some pseudo-Christian group called the World Wide Church of God.

Armstrongites?

 
Quote
He and my mother met there and were married in '87 and then became Methodists when I was 7 in '97. I would love for my family to enter Holy Orthodoxy. Do you have any suggestions for books for them? Neither of them are very avid readers, but I might be able to share something that might pique their interest, God willing.

For piquing, I'd recommend "The Orthodox Way," "No Man Ever Spoke Like This,"  and "Christ in the Psalms" by Fr. Pat Reardon (my priest).  The last two focus on Scripture, something a Protestant can relate to, and express Orthodoxy.  If you can get it, there is a pamphlet by Fr. Schmemann on Holy Week.  The first gives a flavor of Orthodoxy without overpowering.  Once interested in Orthodoxy, there are other works I would recommend.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 11:47:53 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 11:58:00 PM »

Quote
I do not own an Orthodox Study Bible as I have heard mixed reviews on it. I am looking into the version from Holy Apostles Convent.

You'll hear mixed reviews on the Holy Apostles Convent Bible as well. I know, I'm one who would give it a mixed review. Wink  The main positive of the HAC Bible is that it has quotes from the Church Fathers. The negative is that IMO it can have a clunky translation at times, which makes it hard to follow.
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 12:45:36 AM »


You'll hear mixed reviews on the Holy Apostles Convent Bible as well. I know, I'm one who would give it a mixed review. Wink  The main positive of the HAC Bible is that it has quotes from the Church Fathers. The negative is that IMO it can have a clunky translation at times, which makes it hard to follow.

Being a college student without a job, I'll see what I can do about acquiring one of the two. I have a Septuagint, the one translated by Sir Lancelot Brenton with the Greek and English on the side. Is there a movement to have a complete Orthodox Bible? Perhaps, one that is not KJV? I suppose the reason for there not being one is that Orthodoxy has not been in English speaking countries for too terribly long; at least not long enough for there to be an Orthodox Bible completely translated from the original texts (i.e. the ones available) and not relying on other translations. I'm still ignorant on this, so please forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Thanks again for your prayers. I will certainly need them!

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 09:31:50 AM »


You'll hear mixed reviews on the Holy Apostles Convent Bible as well. I know, I'm one who would give it a mixed review. Wink  The main positive of the HAC Bible is that it has quotes from the Church Fathers. The negative is that IMO it can have a clunky translation at times, which makes it hard to follow.

Being a college student without a job, I'll see what I can do about acquiring one of the two. I have a Septuagint, the one translated by Sir Lancelot Brenton with the Greek and English on the side. Is there a movement to have a complete Orthodox Bible? Perhaps, one that is not KJV? I suppose the reason for there not being one is that Orthodoxy has not been in English speaking countries for too terribly long; at least not long enough for there to be an Orthodox Bible completely translated from the original texts (i.e. the ones available) and not relying on other translations. I'm still ignorant on this, so please forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum.

Thanks again for your prayers. I will certainly need them!

In Christ,
Andrew
The is an academic translation which is quite accurate and good.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/
It also has its own problems, for one not being having an eye, of course, to theology.  For instance, it translates "eis telos" "completely," "regarding completion," whereas the OSB sees that as literally "for the end," and hence prophetic.  See, for instance Ps. 21 (22)

I would recommend the OSB for the simple reason that it has the OT (unfortunately, somethings in the seperate NT were not carried over into the whole Bible translation).  If you have read the OT before, you can see the difference with the LXX.  Yes, it depends too much on the New King James (dictated by copyright and other considerations.  One was, for instance, translating "Houioi tou Israil" as "Children of Israel," rather than the more correct, even by the Hebrew "Sons of Israel."  The concern that "Children of Israel" had become standard was in play).  Yes, it is weak in a lot of its commentary.  It could use more patristics.  Yes, an eye (or ear) to liturgical use could be more attuned (but, as one contributor put it, the LXX itself is a very wooden translation).  But it is the one that got the ball rolling, and I have doubts if HACB et alia would have happened without it, a fact a Greek priest pointed out in his congregation here.

For English, I used to use the Revised Standard Version of the Oxford Study Bible.  (the omission of IV Maccabbees in the OSB was not welcome.  The NETS has it.  By the way, both OSB and NETS can be had for around $50 on amazon.  Christmas is coming...).  NOT the newly Revised ( Shocked).

Btw, the OCA by far has the most poetic, natural English for services.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 09:35:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 09:54:37 AM »

Here is an Orthodox catechism http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx and the Antiochian prayer book w/ Divine Liturgy online http://www.orthodoxyork.org/resources.html
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 10:28:22 AM »

I listen to Ancient Faith Radio almost daily and have been for the past 3 months, but had to do so quietly so my Latin room mates would not harass me.

Curious. What is the Catholic atmosphere like at your school?
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 10:44:01 AM »

Welcome Shlomlokh  to the Convert Issues Forum. WE jope that you will find answers to your qiuestions.

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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 02:31:58 AM »


Curious. What is the Catholic atmosphere like at your school?

Perhaps, "harass" was too strong a word. But I did not want them to get suspicious and then bug me about it. But tonight they all pounced on me and told me I'd be becoming a schismatic and were grilling me on reasons why. I'll admit I'm not as versed in Orthodoxy, yet and did not have many good arguments, but I don't feel the need to really argue about it because the truth can stand on its own. But I need to learn to defend it better while being charitable at the same time. I could not adequately state why I no longer believed in the Immaculate Conception nor why the Filioque was heretical. Just me saying the Filioque was heretical in light of Orthodox theology (and the first several centuries of the Church) was enough to make them scream, which I can understand why.

At this point, what Fathers should I be reading in order to bolster my faith. I want to avoid confrontations as much as possible henceforth until I get a better grasp and understanding. Please continue to pray for me all of you.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 07:51:04 AM »

The strange current circumstance re Rome & the filioque is that many Eastern rite Catholic churches profess the original creed minus the filioque. Although issues like the immaculate conception are accepted by these churches & the break with Orthodoxy remains.
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 07:51:42 AM »

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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 08:33:28 AM »


Curious. What is the Catholic atmosphere like at your school?

Perhaps, "harass" was too strong a word. But I did not want them to get suspicious and then bug me about it. But tonight they all pounced on me and told me I'd be becoming a schismatic and were grilling me on reasons why. I'll admit I'm not as versed in Orthodoxy, yet and did not have many good arguments, but I don't feel the need to really argue about it because the truth can stand on its own. But I need to learn to defend it better while being charitable at the same time. I could not adequately state why I no longer believed in the Immaculate Conception nor why the Filioque was heretical. Just me saying the Filioque was heretical in light of Orthodox theology (and the first several centuries of the Church) was enough to make them scream, which I can understand why.

At this point, what Fathers should I be reading in order to bolster my faith. I want to avoid confrontations as much as possible henceforth until I get a better grasp and understanding. Please continue to pray for me all of you.

In Christ,
Andrew
The Apostolic Fathers.  In Particular St. Ignatius (he talks about the need of a bishop a lot, and the need of his approval in all things, but nothing about a supreme pontiff in Rome, nor papal approval of anything, even when he writes to Rome).

John of Damascus.  The Post-Nicene Fathers is good, but perhaps a more readable one is the Church Fathers series (they have red covers, and AM library should have a copy).  The latter has his whole font of knowledge, which gets very technical (its on philosophy).

St. Athanasius "On the Incarnation." Gives a background of why the IC is unnecessary and confusing.

On the IC, a few things: It is a very late dogma.  It appears in the 10th century at the earliest, and several saints recognized by the Vatican condemned it as an innovation (on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I posted at length excerpts from Bernard of Clairveaux condemning it).  It is also unnecessary: the "logic" of potuit decuit ergo fecit, that, as it is often put (I've just heard Marc Meravalle on this yesterday.  He's at the head of the pack of the Mariolatrists, and on the flacky fringe of respectable traditionalism) God needed a sinless vessel, how could God suffer to have his mother subject to Satan, blah, blah, blah. "God made the One Who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness might come about in us." (II Cor. 5:21).  If God the Son became sin, what need of the IC?  It defeats the purpose of the Incarnation. I"ve been told by a professor of patristics at a major Jesuit university that St. Maximus talks on this very verse.  IC is also founded (per Ineffabilis Deus), in part (as is Dr. Meravalle's other pet dogma, the co-redemtrix: when he speaks about it it makes me want to retch) on a mistranslation by Jerome (who abandoned the Church's tradition, a translated from a Hebrew text, not the LXX) of Genesis 3:15, the Vulgate saying "she will crush your head," whereas the LXX (and the Hebrew, but Jews translate it "they") reads "HE will crush your head."  

As for filioque, again, Rome resisted it for CENTURIES.  Pope Leo III Leo forbade the addition of "filioque" to the Nicene Creed which was added by Franks in Aachen in 809. He also ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future. He wrote «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26).  But the Franks didn't give up, and by order of the emperor Henry at his coronation, it was inserted at Rome in 1014.  That it is heretical is shown by the present day Vatican prohibition of reciting it in the original Greek, as it results in what even the Vatican condemns (at least now) as heresy.  Another thing to remember: the Fathers of the Council who wrote the Creed were not in communion with Rome when they did so.  They had sided with St. Meletios of Antioch (who opened the council), whom Rome (and St. Jerome) had opposed  and against whom they set up a rival patriarch.  All 4 of the Vatican's modern patriarchs of Antioch all claim descent from St. Meletios.  The line set up by Rome (and who ordained St. Jerome) died out.  Btw, Patriarch Meletios ordained St. John Chrysostom.

The filioque is heretical, as it makes two sources in the Holy Trinity.   The Creed (by use a specific Greek word, the one used by St. John in reporting Christ's words on the matter) makes clear that the Spirit's hypostatic procession is from the Father, eternally, alone.
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 10:59:48 AM »

Perhaps, "harass" was too strong a word. But I did not want them to get suspicious and then bug me about it. But tonight they all pounced on me and told me I'd be becoming a schismatic and were grilling me on reasons why. I'll admit I'm not as versed in Orthodoxy, yet and did not have many good arguments, but I don't feel the need to really argue about it because the truth can stand on its own. But I need to learn to defend it better while being charitable at the same time. I could not adequately state why I no longer believed in the Immaculate Conception nor why the Filioque was heretical. Just me saying the Filioque was heretical in light of Orthodox theology (and the first several centuries of the Church) was enough to make them scream, which I can understand why.

I didn't go to a Catholic college, but I was active in the campus Catholic student center when I started questioning my faith and I had the exact experience you describe here. My roommate at the time was/is also very active there. He refuses to speak to me and tells everyone I converted to Islam.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 12:26:12 PM »

The Apostolic Fathers.  In Particular St. Ignatius (he talks about the need of a bishop a lot, and the need of his approval in all things, but nothing about a supreme pontiff in Rome, nor papal approval of anything, even when he writes to Rome).

John of Damascus.  The Post-Nicene Fathers is good, but perhaps a more readable one is the Church Fathers series (they have red covers, and AM library should have a copy).  The latter has his whole font of knowledge, which gets very technical (its on philosophy).

St. Athanasius "On the Incarnation." Gives a background of why the IC is unnecessary and confusing.

On the IC, a few things: It is a very late dogma.  It appears in the 10th century at the earliest, and several saints recognized by the Vatican condemned it as an innovation (on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I posted at length excerpts from Bernard of Clairveaux condemning it).  It is also unnecessary: the "logic" of potuit decuit ergo fecit, that, as it is often put (I've just heard Marc Meravalle on this yesterday.  He's at the head of the pack of the Mariolatrists, and on the flacky fringe of respectable traditionalism) God needed a sinless vessel, how could God suffer to have his mother subject to Satan, blah, blah, blah. "God made the One Who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God's righteousness might come about in us." (II Cor. 5:21).  If God the Son became sin, what need of the IC?  It defeats the purpose of the Incarnation. I"ve been told by a professor of patristics at a major Jesuit university that St. Maximus talks on this very verse.  IC is also founded (per Ineffabilis Deus), in part (as is Dr. Meravalle's other pet dogma, the co-redemtrix: when he speaks about it it makes me want to retch) on a mistranslation by Jerome (who abandoned the Church's tradition, a translated from a Hebrew text, not the LXX) of Genesis 3:15, the Vulgate saying "she will crush your head," whereas the LXX (and the Hebrew, but Jews translate it "they") reads "HE will crush your head."  

As for filioque, again, Rome resisted it for CENTURIES.  Pope Leo III Leo forbade the addition of "filioque" to the Nicene Creed which was added by Franks in Aachen in 809. He also ordered that the Nicene creed be engraved on silver tablets so that his conclusion might not be overturned in the future. He wrote «HAEC LEO POSUI AMORE ET CAUTELA ORTHODOXAE FIDEI» (I, Leo, put here for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith)(VITA LEONIS, LIBER PONTIFICALIS (Ed.Duchene, TII, p.26).  But the Franks didn't give up, and by order of the emperor Henry at his coronation, it was inserted at Rome in 1014.  That it is heretical is shown by the present day Vatican prohibition of reciting it in the original Greek, as it results in what even the Vatican condemns (at least now) as heresy.  Another thing to remember: the Fathers of the Council who wrote the Creed were not in communion with Rome when they did so.  They had sided with St. Meletios of Antioch (who opened the council), whom Rome (and St. Jerome) had opposed  and against whom they set up a rival patriarch.  All 4 of the Vatican's modern patriarchs of Antioch all claim descent from St. Meletios.  The line set up by Rome (and who ordained St. Jerome) died out.  Btw, Patriarch Meletios ordained St. John Chrysostom.

The filioque is heretical, as it makes two sources in the Holy Trinity.   The Creed (by use a specific Greek word, the one used by St. John in reporting Christ's words on the matter) makes clear that the Spirit's hypostatic procession is from the Father, eternally, alone.


I was told by them that this is how the Filioque works:

Father<--------->Son
      \                 /
       \               /
        \             /
         \           /
         Holy Spirit


Essentially, they said it is the love that the Father and Son share that manifests in the Holy Spirit, and that this was Augustinian belief. I told them it sounded awfully a lot like the Holy Spirit is created. They fired back by saying that it's the procession of the Spirit. To me, I don't think it's orthodox at all.

Thanks again. I will get right on finding those books!

In Christ,
Andrew

PS. I believe your pastor is coming to AMU in February for a conference. I hope to introduce myself to him if time permits him.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 01:14:23 PM »

My RC sister-in-law has finally decided I'm really Catholic, I just don't know it  Roll Eyes  It's preferable to the screaming matches she and DH got into when she first found out he (and I) was converting. 

If you can get some, Conciliar Press puts out some really handy little booklets that are good for on the spot questions. 
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 05:05:10 PM »


Curious. What is the Catholic atmosphere like at your school?

Perhaps, "harass" was too strong a word. But I did not want them to get suspicious and then bug me about it. But tonight they all pounced on me and told me I'd be becoming a schismatic and were grilling me on reasons why. I'll admit I'm not as versed in Orthodoxy, yet and did not have many good arguments, but I don't feel the need to really argue about it because the truth can stand on its own. But I need to learn to defend it better while being charitable at the same time. I could not adequately state why I no longer believed in the Immaculate Conception nor why the Filioque was heretical. Just me saying the Filioque was heretical in light of Orthodox theology (and the first several centuries of the Church) was enough to make them scream, which I can understand why.

At this point, what Fathers should I be reading in order to bolster my faith. I want to avoid confrontations as much as possible henceforth until I get a better grasp and understanding. Please continue to pray for me all of you.

In Christ,
Andrew

I feel your pain. One of my relatives did that to me, saying I was "being told lies" and what not. I was in catechisms at the time and told the priests teaching that night. They just said, "Well...we're sorry she feels that way." I also told my pastor at the time (who brought me into the Church and married me). When I told him this relative said she even held an icon at a Greek wedding he said, "Oh no. She's "going to Hell"! She participated with "the enemy Church"! My old pastor is a former Catholic seminarian and Old catholic priest, and he knows more about the Roman church and ours than she knows about her own family. She sure changed her tune when she met him.

As for Maronites, the ones here in town think they are the "true Lebanese" (as if any one else really cares about that). They often mingle with my parish because they used to be next to each other in the old ghetto. My new pastor found out AFTER THE FACT that a bunch had came up for communion, something they never tried with our old pastor of ten years because he knew everyone and always made the announcement that only Orthodox Christians who prepared properly could approach. He naturally got upset, and told them never to do that again. They couldn't understand why since "we believe the same things." No we don't! What I know about their history (and everyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that they were founded by St. Maron and were under the jurisdiction of Antioch, then they fell into heresy and took refuge in the mountains there, then they joined Rome only when offered protection from Islam by the French.

The point is that if you can't accept the innovations of the filioque, Infallibilty etc then you can't be a Catholic, unless you settle. Settling makes one schizophrenic, like you're in two different faiths at once.

The filioque is heresy because it turns an equilateral triangle upside down.

Everyone else has mentioned some great books. Read those, and I add the writings of Pope Gregory the Great (aka St. Gregory the Dialogist)

Godspeed
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2010, 01:26:39 AM »

I remember the first time I felt the holy spirit in me, It was right after communion, I was I think 15 and I went into deep prayer and I prayed for comfort, I felt the holy spirit pass into me and I felt the most comfort and warmth that I have ever felt.

Don't worry about what others say, your relationship with Christ is not of their business.
It's between you and Christ.
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2010, 12:15:28 AM »


The point is that if you can't accept the innovations of the filioque, Infallibilty etc then you can't be a Catholic, unless you settle. Settling makes one schizophrenic, like you're in two different faiths at once.




Thats the TRUTH! Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2010, 12:18:32 AM »

Quote
As for Maronites, the ones here in town think they are the "true Lebanese"

They and the Syriac-Maronites are the true Lebanese, everybody else is an imposter or muslim invader. Your history of the Maronites is an orthodox fable, the Maronites have been in communion with Rome longer than any other Semitic Church in the world.
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