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Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew's Sunday of Orthodoxy Encyclical 2010  (Read 8653 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 20, 2010, 01:04:43 PM »

Powerful words from the Ecumenical Patriarch and his Holy Synod and heartening indeed for those of us committed to dialogue and who proclaim the Truth of Orthodoxy. Pray for his health and safety this Sunday,which proclaims the triumph of Orthodoxy for all of us in the Orthodox Church.

Patriarchal and Synodal Encyclical On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Prot. No. 213

BARTHOLOMEW

By God’s Grace
Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome
and Ecumenical Patriarch

To the Fullness of the Church, Grace and Peace
From our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

Our most holy Orthodox Church today commemorates its own feast day, and – from this historical and martyric See of the Ecumenical Patriarchate – the Mother Church of Constantinople directs its blessing, love and concern to all of its faithful and dedicated spiritual children throughout the world, inviting them to concelebrate in prayer.

Blessed be the name of the Lord! Those who endeavored over the ages to suppress the Church through various visible and invisible persecutions; those who sought to falsify the Church with their heretical teachings; those who wanted to silence the Church, depriving it of its voice and witness; they all proved unsuccessful. The clouds of Martyrs, the tears of the Ascetics, and the prayers of the Saints protect the Church spiritually, while the Comforter and Spirit of Truth leads it to the fullness of truth.

With a sense of duty and responsibility, despite its hurdles and problems, as the First-Throne Church of Orthodoxy, the Ecumenical Patriarchate cares about protecting and establishing the unity of the Orthodox Church, in order that with one voice and in one heart we may confess the Orthodox faith of our Fathers in every age and even in our times. For, Orthodoxy is not a museum treasure that must be preserved; it is a breath of life that must be transmitted and invigorate all people. Orthodoxy is always contemporary, so long as we promote it with humility and interpret it in light of the existential quests and needs of humanity in each historical period and cultural circumstance.

To this purpose, Orthodoxy must be in constant dialogue with the world. The Orthodox Church does not fear dialogue because truth is not afraid of dialogue. On the contrary, if Orthodoxy is enclosed within itself and not in dialogue with those outside, it will both fail in its mission and no longer be the “catholic” and “ecumenical” Church. Instead, it will become an introverted and self-contained group, a “ghetto” on the margins of history. This is why the great Fathers of the Church never feared dialogue with the spiritual culture of their age – indeed even with the pagan idolaters and philosophers of their world – thereby influencing and transforming the civilization of their time and offering us a truly ecumenical Church.

Today, Orthodoxy is called to continue this dialogue with the outside world in order to provide a witness and the life-giving breath of its faith. However, this dialogue cannot reach the outside world unless it first passes through all those that bear the Christian name. Thus, we must first converse as Christians among ourselves in order to resolve our differences, in order that our witness to the outside world may be credible. Our endeavors for the union of all Christians is the will and command of our Lord, who before His Passion prayed to His Father “that all [namely, His disciples] may be one, so that the world may believe that You sent me.” (John 17.21) It is not possible for the Lord to agonize over the unity of His disciples and for us to remain indifferent about the unity of all Christians. This would constitute criminal betrayal and transgression of His divine commandment.

It is precisely for these reasons that, with the mutual agreement and participation of all local Orthodox Churches, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has for many decades conducted official Panorthodox theological dialogues with the larger Christian Churches and Confessions. The aim of these dialogues is, in a spirit of love, to discuss whatever divides Christians both in terms of faith as well as in terms of the organization and life of the Church.

These dialogues, together with every effort for peaceful and fraternal relations of the Orthodox Church with other Christians, are unfortunately challenged today in an unacceptably fanatical way – at least by the standards of a genuinely Orthodox ethos – by certain circles that exclusively claim for themselves the title of zealot and defender of Orthodoxy. As if all the Patriarchs and Sacred Synods of the Orthodox Churches throughout the world, who unanimously decided on and continue to support these dialogues, were not Orthodox. Yet, these opponents of every effort for the restoration of unity among Christians raise themselves above Episcopal Synods of the Church to the dangerous point of creating schisms within the Church.

In their polemical argumentation, these critics of the restoration of unity among Christians do not even hesitate to distort reality in order to deceive and arouse the faithful. Thus, they are silent about the fact that theological dialogues are conducted by unanimous decision of all Orthodox Churches, instead attacking the Ecumenical Patriarchate alone. They disseminate false rumors that union between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches is imminent, while they know well that the differences discussed in these theological dialogues remain numerous and require lengthy debate; moreover, union is not decided by theological commissions but by Church Synods. They assert that the Pope will supposedly subjugate the Orthodox, because they latter submit to dialogue with the Roman Catholics! They condemn those who conduct these dialogues as allegedly “heretics” and “traitors” of Orthodoxy, purely and simply because they converse with non-Orthodox, with whom they share the treasure and truth of our Orthodox faith. They speak condescendingly of every effort for reconciliation among divided Christians and restoration of their unity as purportedly being “the pan-heresy of ecumenism” without providing the slightest evidence that, in its contacts with non-Orthodox, the Orthodox Church has abandoned or denied the doctrines of the Ecumenical Councils and of the Church Fathers.

Beloved children in the Lord, Orthodoxy has no need of either fanaticism or bigotry to protect itself. Whoever believes that Orthodoxy has the truth does not fear dialogue, because truth has never been endangered by dialogue. By contrast, when in our day all people strive to resolve their differences through dialogue, Orthodoxy cannot proceed with intolerance and extremism. You should have utmost confidence in your Mother Church. For the Mother Church has over the ages preserved and transmitted Orthodoxy even to other nations. And today, the Mother Church is struggling amid difficult circumstances to maintain Orthodoxy vibrant and venerable throughout the world.

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy, we embrace all of you lovingly and bless you paternally, praying that you may journey in health through the holy period of contrition and asceticism known as Holy and Great Lent in order that you may become worthy of celebrating the pure Passion and glorious Resurrection of our Savior Lord with all faithful Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Sunday of Orthodoxy 2010

+ Bartholomew of Constantinople

Fervent supplicant to God for all

+ Constantine of Derkon

+ Evangelos of Perge

+ Kallinikos of Lystra

+ Michael of Austria

+ Alexios of Atlanta

+ Joseph of Proikonnisos

+ Demetrios of Sevasteia

+ Irenaios of Myriophyton and Peristasis

+ Chrysostom of Myra

+ Emmanuel of France

+ Makarios of Gortyna and Arkadia

+ Amphilochios of New Zealand
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 01:14:49 PM »

I'm glad to see His Holiness engaging the debate on ecumenism in such a public way. It shows that the critiques of ecumenism are being heard and taken seriously. Hopefully the next step will be actual engagement and dialogue. It's senseless to talk about dialogue with other Christians if the EP cannot have a genuine, frank dialogue with his own monks.
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 02:44:51 PM »

A wise man speaks about the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=related
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 03:57:01 PM »

My problem isn't with dialogue, my problem is with putting Orthodoxy on the same level as all the other "Churches [sic] and Confessions". Dialogue can be a wonderful thing, but we must approach it from the standpoint of bringing them into our Church.

Of course the truth is never threatened. The truth still stands even if the whole Church goes apostate. But the integrity of the truth is very much in danger when we present ourselves as just another denomination, one of many churches.

[edit to add] Basically it's relativism. "Nobody has the truth, instead we all have a piece of it. Orthodoxy may have the biggest piece, but we don't have all of it. So let's come together and figure out what the truth is." That's wrong. Others do have pieces of the truth, but we already have all of it, so we wait with open arms.
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 04:00:15 PM »

My problem isn't with dialogue, my problem is with putting Orthodoxy on the same level as all the other "Churches [sic] and Confessions". Dialogue can be a wonderful thing, but we must approach it from the standpoint of bringing them into our Church.

Of course the truth is never threatened. The truth still stands even if the whole Church goes apostate. But the integrity of the truth is very much in danger when we present ourselves as just another denomination, one of many churches.

Finally, a person who speaks the truth!

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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 05:44:49 PM »

What do you think prompted this message of the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's encyclical for this Sunday of Orthodoxy?  Did separated Old Calendarists do something significant recently that the Patriarchate is reacting to?
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 05:52:05 PM »

My problem isn't with dialogue, my problem is with putting Orthodoxy on the same level as all the other "Churches [sic] and Confessions". Dialogue can be a wonderful thing, but we must approach it from the standpoint of bringing them into our Church.

Of course the truth is never threatened. The truth still stands even if the whole Church goes apostate. But the integrity of the truth is very much in danger when we present ourselves as just another denomination, one of many churches.

[edit to add] Basically it's relativism. "Nobody has the truth, instead we all have a piece of it. Orthodoxy may have the biggest piece, but we don't have all of it. So let's come together and figure out what the truth is." That's wrong. Others do have pieces of the truth, but we already have all of it, so we wait with open arms.
Who said this?  You put this relativistic sentiment in quotes as though someone else said it.  Yet I don't find the statement anywhere in the above quote of His All Holiness's public address.
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 07:56:39 PM »

What do you think prompted this message of the Holy and Sacred Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's encyclical for this Sunday of Orthodoxy?  Did separated Old Calendarists do something significant recently that the Patriarchate is reacting to?

I'm guessing it has more to do with the "Confession of Faith Against Ecumenism" which came out of the EP's own monks on Mount Athos. This is a backhanded way of saying that the EP can't ignore them any more. Eventually the EP will have to stop pretending that the opposition to ecumenism comes only from some ultra-zealot fringe.
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 08:09:39 PM »

I don't think Orthodox should go an inch towards grouping up with the Catholics, not even a fraction of an inch.

http://www.the-highway.com/vaticancontrol_Bennett.html
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 09:09:01 PM »

Beloved children in the Lord, Orthodoxy has no need of either fanaticism or bigotry to protect itself.
Amen!
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 10:57:06 PM »

Quote from: Saint Mark of Ephesus
"All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils and all the divine Scriptures exhort us to avoid heretics, and to refrain from communion with them. Therefore, am I to disregard them all, and follow those who under the pretense of a manufactured peace strive for union?"
Amen!

P.S. Given the spirit of the age (see the original post) and Patriarch Bartholomew in particular, in the place of "peace" substitute "dialogue."


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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 02:58:21 PM »

Quote from: Saint Mark of Ephesus
"All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils and all the divine Scriptures exhort us to avoid heretics, and to refrain from communion with them. Therefore, am I to disregard them all, and follow those who under the pretense of a manufactured peace strive for union?"
Amen!

P.S. Given the spirit of the age (see the original post) and Bartholomew in particular, in the place of "peace" substitute "dialogue."
But does the Church define "heretic" as (1) anyone who is a member of a non-Orthodox church, including those who were born into such church; or (2) those individuals who themselves consciously separated from the Orthodox church?
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 04:00:56 PM »

Beloved children in the Lord, Orthodoxy has no need of either fanaticism or bigotry to protect itself.
Amen!

Amen!
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 05:01:31 PM »

A Synod of the Church has never been assembled, as yet, to discuss Ecumenicism with Trinitarian professing Christians, nor has one declared  Ecumenical contacts a heresy, correct? (Ecumenicism is a topic, I do not think addressed yet by a pre-conciliar commission, of the long planned Holy and Great Synod (Council) of the Orthodox Church.)
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 05:14:13 PM »

While what Patriarch Bartholemew is saying is nothing new for him, the fact that he came out with this Encyclical on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, and the fact that he bears false witness against Zealots (by saying they have not showed any evidence of the degradation of Orthodoxy via these contacts, when they have produced evidence on numerous occasions [even if one does not agree with said evidence; there is a clear difference here]) makes it especially unfortunate.
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2010, 05:20:59 PM »

My problem isn't with dialogue, my problem is with putting Orthodoxy on the same level as all the other "Churches [sic] and Confessions". Dialogue can be a wonderful thing, but we must approach it from the standpoint of bringing them into our Church.

Of course the truth is never threatened. The truth still stands even if the whole Church goes apostate. But the integrity of the truth is very much in danger when we present ourselves as just another denomination, one of many churches.

[edit to add] Basically it's relativism. "Nobody has the truth, instead we all have a piece of it. Orthodoxy may have the biggest piece, but we don't have all of it. So let's come together and figure out what the truth is." That's wrong. Others do have pieces of the truth, but we already have all of it, so we wait with open arms.

I see it as, the Orthodox Church has "all truth" as promised in the scripture and other churches have some truth. The purpose of dialogue should be to find what truth others have and present them with what they are lacking. This must be done in love and requires the Church to reach out to others on their level and build them up from there. Even St Paul did this in Athens. "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." He didn't say "I'm right, you're wrong, submit or go to hell", but he said "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." This doesn't mean that all churches and beliefs are "equal" and the Orthodox Church is just "one of many equally true churches", but simply the Church must "speak the truth in love" and not pride or arrogance. Anyway that's just how I see dialogue and how I personally try to interact with other people when trying to explain things.
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 07:15:17 PM »

While what Patriarch Bartholemew is saying is nothing new for him, the fact that he came out with this Encyclical on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, and the fact that he bears false witness against Zealots (by saying they have not showed any evidence of the degradation of Orthodoxy via these contacts, when they have produced evidence on numerous occasions [even if one does not agree with said evidence; there is a clear difference here]) makes it especially unfortunate.

I agree. I have seen plenty of nuanced and thoughtful critiques of ecumenism. This encyclical is, by contrast, glib.
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2010, 07:57:53 PM »


I don't think Orthodox should go an inch towards grouping up with the Catholics, not even a fraction of an inch.

You seem to have not learned from any of the conversations I've had with you.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2010, 08:25:05 PM »

Is it just me or is the view of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in this encyclical a little too highly primacist?
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

My problem isn't with dialogue, my problem is with putting Orthodoxy on the same level as all the other "Churches [sic] and Confessions". Dialogue can be a wonderful thing, but we must approach it from the standpoint of bringing them into our Church.

Of course the truth is never threatened. The truth still stands even if the whole Church goes apostate. But the integrity of the truth is very much in danger when we present ourselves as just another denomination, one of many churches.

[edit to add] Basically it's relativism. "Nobody has the truth, instead we all have a piece of it. Orthodoxy may have the biggest piece, but we don't have all of it. So let's come together and figure out what the truth is." That's wrong. Others do have pieces of the truth, but we already have all of it, so we wait with open arms.

I see it as, the Orthodox Church has "all truth" as promised in the scripture and other churches have some truth. The purpose of dialogue should be to find what truth others have and present them with what they are lacking. This must be done in love and requires the Church to reach out to others on their level and build them up from there. Even St Paul did this in Athens. "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." He didn't say "I'm right, you're wrong, submit or go to hell", but he said "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." This doesn't mean that all churches and beliefs are "equal" and the Orthodox Church is just "one of many equally true churches", but simply the Church must "speak the truth in love" and not pride or arrogance. Anyway that's just how I see dialogue and how I personally try to interact with other people when trying to explain things.

I agree with what you say in theory, the problem is it's not executed that way. When you see an Orthodox bishop, a Catholic bishop, an Anglican bishop, and various Protestant ministers standing all together at an ecumenical worship service, what does that say? It says we're all worshiping in our own way, but it's all basically the same and equally fine.

No, we should not go around damning everyone to hell who isn't Orthodox. But we cannot give assent to their wrong beliefs either, and by us going along with everything, it legitimates false beliefs, implicitly if not explicitly. I just don't see Orthodox hierarchs calling people into our Church in these meetings. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems more like we're all trying to find some middle ground to settle on.
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 11:38:07 PM »


Listen to this man.

He is a very intelligible Spiritual Father from Greece.

He speaks about issues, such as the subject posted above, and the union with Rome.


What keeps us from uniting with the Latins?
http://www.philokalia.org/Constantine%20Zalalas/Q&A/Q&A%203B-What%20Keeps%20Us%20From%20Uniting%20Wi.mp3

The Pope's visit to Greece
http://www.philokalia.org/Constantine%20Zalalas/Q&A/Q&A%203A-Pope's%20Visit%20To%20Greece.mp3





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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 12:14:41 AM »


The church certainly needed 'fanaticism' during the millions of martyrdom who shed their blood for the truth, throughout the ages.

In order to keep the Holy Orthodox faith pure from heresy and lies. And in order to keep the faith strong and thriving.

So i guess that these Serbian people of God were 'bigots' or 'fanatics':

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/serbian_newmartyrs.aspx

Here is a true man of God, who fought for the truth, who paid the price for purity, purity of doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximus_the_Confessor

Trial and exile
Maximus' refusal to accept Monothelitism caused him to be brought to the imperial capital of Constantinople to be tried as a heretic in 658. In Constantinople, the Monothelite position had gained the favor of both the Emperor and the Patriarch of Constantinople. Maximus stood behind the Dyothelite position, and was sent back into exile for four more years.
In 662, Maximus was placed on trial once more, and was once more convicted of heresy. Following the trial Maximus was tortured, having his tongue cut out, so he could no longer speak his rebellion and his right hand cut off, so that he could no longer write letters .[10] Maximus was then exiled to the Lazica or Colchis region of modern-day Georgia and was cast in the fortress of Schemarum, perhaps Muris-Tsikhe near the modern town of Tsageri.[11] He died soon thereafter, on 13 August 662.[12] The events of the trials of Maximus were recorded by Anastasius Bibliothecarius.








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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 01:22:45 AM »

Differences between the OC and RCC= merely political. Your patriarchs have signed papers saying this, so that's all that matters to me.
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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 01:58:15 AM »

Rafa999, I respectfully, wholly disagree that Orthodox patriarchs have signed documents that the differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism is "political."  Some of the interactions between patriarchs and Roman hierarchy, may imply equality, but it's not been said, written, or in my opinion, believed by an Orthodox patriarch.
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 01:58:39 AM »

Quote from: Saint Mark of Ephesus
"All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils and all the divine Scriptures exhort us to avoid heretics, and to refrain from communion with them. Therefore, am I to disregard them all, and follow those who under the pretense of a manufactured peace strive for union?"
Amen!

P.S. Given the spirit of the age (see the original post) and Patriarch Bartholomew in particular, in the place of "peace" substitute "dialogue."


His All-Holiness's name prefaced with proper title to make sure he receives the respect due his hierarchical office  -PtA

I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink
 Your disdain both for honorifics, and for the moderators is well-documented.  You're being muted (i.e. you can't post, but you can PM) for 99 days, at which time your status will reduce to "Post Moderation" (you can post, but it has to be approved before it will appear on the forum), and then to "warned" (no restriction).

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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2010, 02:03:42 AM »


Differences between the OC and RCC= merely political. Your patriarchs have signed papers saying this, so that's all that matters to me.

The Roman church has perverted the doctrine of the Trinity.
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2010, 02:05:13 AM »

Quote from: Saint Mark of Ephesus
"All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils and all the divine Scriptures exhort us to avoid heretics, and to refrain from communion with them. Therefore, am I to disregard them all, and follow those who under the pretense of a manufactured peace strive for union?"
Amen!

P.S. Given the spirit of the age (see the original post) and Patriarch Bartholomew in particular, in the place of "peace" substitute "dialogue."


His All-Holiness's name prefaced with proper title to make sure he receives the respect due his hierarchical office  -PtA

I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink

The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 02:16:15 AM »

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy...

Where's Isa when we need him?  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2010, 02:23:19 AM »

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy...

Where's Isa when we need him?  Wink


Is it just me or is the view of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in this encyclical a little too highly primacist?
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2010, 02:27:15 AM »

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy...

Where's Isa when we need him?  Wink


Is it just me or is the view of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in this encyclical a little too highly primacist?

I missed your post.  Yeah, this is pretty over the top.  I think that the mentality out of Istanbul is if you say it enough times, it will become true.
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2010, 02:27:42 AM »

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy...

Where's Isa when we need him?  Wink


Is it just me or is the view of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in this encyclical a little too highly primacist?

Now, now - let's not be cynical - remember, BARTHOLOMEW, by God’s Grace
Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch admonishes us that
 "You should have utmost confidence in your Mother Church."  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2010, 02:36:32 AM »



I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink

The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.

It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2010, 02:44:38 AM »



I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink

The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.

It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley

Though it may not be the case in this situation, it's quite clear that my personal issues that have been had had little to do with my personal taste for certain clergymen and much to do with my lack of recognition of them possessing Holy Orders. I don't have a problem with honorifics, obviously, seeing as how I have referred to various OO priests who have passed through here as Father. So the Protestant comment was uncalled for. The fact still stands that I have been required to refer to EO clerics with honorifics derived from an assumption of Holy Orders even though I don't even recognize them as having Holy Orders. The fact that it is even such an issue, however, is ridiculous. It is fine and proper for most people on here to insist that they use honorifics as an expression of their piety and to regard it as improper if others do not. But the way that honorifics are being required on this site, to the point where peoples' posts are essentially censured just for not using them, is simply out of hand.
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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2010, 02:46:19 AM »

From the Ecumenical Patriarchate, this sacred Center of Orthodoxy...

Where's Isa when we need him?  Wink


Is it just me or is the view of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in this encyclical a little too highly primacist?

Now, now - let's not be cynical - remember, BARTHOLOMEW, by God’s Grace
Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch admonishes us that
 "You should have utmost confidence in your Mother Church."  Roll Eyes

From what I remember, Constantinople has the most flirtatious history with various heresies out of any of the 4 original Eastern Patriarchs.
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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2010, 02:48:05 AM »



I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink

The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.

It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley

Though it may not be the case in this situation, it's quite clear that my personal issues that have been had had little to do with my personal taste for certain clergymen and much to do with my lack of recognition of them possessing Holy Orders. I don't have a problem with honorifics, obviously, seeing as how I have referred to various OO priests who have passed through here as Father. So the Protestant comment was uncalled for. The fact still stands that I have been required to refer to EO clerics with honorifics derived from an assumption of Holy Orders even though I don't even recognize them as having Holy Orders. The fact that it is even such an issue, however, is ridiculous. It is fine and proper for most people on here to insist that they use honorifics as an expression of their piety and to regard it as improper if others do not. But the way that honorifics are being required on this site, to the point where peoples' posts are essentially censured just for not using them, is simply out of hand.

Yes, but it gives the thought-police something to do and makes them feel useful in the larger scheme of things.

Your disdain both for honorifics, and for the moderators is well-documented.  You're being muted (i.e. you can't post, but you can PM) for 99 days, at which time your status will reduce to "Post Moderation" (you can post, but it has to be approved before it will appear on the forum), and then to "warned" (no restriction).

If you feel this action is in error (I'm sure you do), PM Fr. Chris.  Further violations of the Forum's policies on honorifics, or complaints about moderation, will result in you being banned.

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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2010, 02:54:21 AM »



I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink

The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.

It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley

Though it may not be the case in this situation, it's quite clear that my personal issues that have been had had little to do with my personal taste for certain clergymen and much to do with my lack of recognition of them possessing Holy Orders. I don't have a problem with honorifics, obviously, seeing as how I have referred to various OO priests who have passed through here as Father. So the Protestant comment was uncalled for. The fact still stands that I have been required to refer to EO clerics with honorifics derived from an assumption of Holy Orders even though I don't even recognize them as having Holy Orders. The fact that it is even such an issue, however, is ridiculous. It is fine and proper for most people on here to insist that they use honorifics as an expression of their piety and to regard it as improper if others do not. But the way that honorifics are being required on this site, to the point where peoples' posts are essentially censured just for not using them, is simply out of hand.

Yes, but it gives the thought-police something to do and makes them feel useful in the larger scheme of things.

And we all know that's so important.  Wink
 How passe.  Users breaking established and well-defined forum rules don't make us feel "useful," they ruin our experience here.  We're not paid, and we don't cost the forum anything, so we don't need to justify our jobs to keep them.  We enjoy the environment (generally) on the forum, and have volunteered to help maintain it.

You've been on the site long enough to know that questions about moderation should be addressed via PM with the moderator who made the decision, the Global Moderator who oversees that Mod, or the Administrator of the Forum.  For not doing any of these, you are being warned for 40 days.  This will not affect your posting here.

If you feel that this warning is in error, PM Fr. Chris.

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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2010, 03:05:09 AM »

Stop bashing the mods, you guys.  You know that can get you warned.  Both of you have been here long enough to know better.  We don't get paid to do this, and we're more tolerant here than you'll see at most other forums.  Again, if you have a problem with the rules or with us, there are other ways of dealing with it.
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2010, 05:19:37 PM »

I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink
The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.
It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley
Though it may not be the case in this situation, it's quite clear that my personal issues that have been had had little to do with my personal taste for certain clergymen and much to do with my lack of recognition of them possessing Holy Orders. I don't have a problem with honorifics, obviously, seeing as how I have referred to various OO priests who have passed through here as Father. So the Protestant comment was uncalled for. The fact still stands that I have been required to refer to EO clerics with honorifics derived from an assumption of Holy Orders even though I don't even recognize them as having Holy Orders. The fact that it is even such an issue, however, is ridiculous. It is fine and proper for most people on here to insist that they use honorifics as an expression of their piety and to regard it as improper if others do not. But the way that honorifics are being required on this site, to the point where peoples' posts are essentially censured just for not using them, is simply out of hand.

First: if you'd like to make suggestions or ask meaningful questions about board policy, do it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25385.0.html

Second: We don't require the use of honorifics, only a minimal amount of respect as would befit an academic or reasoned discussion.  So, for example, you don't have to refer to Patriarch Bartholomew as "His All Holiness" (the honorific), but using his title (The Ecumenical Patriarch, shortened to EP, or Patriarch Bartholomew) is appropriate and expected, just as I would refer to Pope Shenouda by his title, even if I don't wish to use the honorific that would accompany it because I'm not in communion with him.  After the initial reference, saying "the Pope," or "the EP," would be appropriate and simple.
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2010, 05:37:18 PM »

I'm sure the Bishop of Istanbul will get along quite well without my respect.  Wink
The requirement of honorifics here is getting rather old.
It's the rules, darlings.  It's also what's proper.  If you don't like the rules, you can complain in a pm to a global moderator or an admin.  If you don't like honorifics, you can join any one of many Protestant denominations that are out there.  We Orthodox give proper titles to our bishops and priests, and whether an honorific gets used has nothing to do with whether we personally like or agree with the bishop or priest we are discussing or addressing.   Smiley
Though it may not be the case in this situation, it's quite clear that my personal issues that have been had had little to do with my personal taste for certain clergymen and much to do with my lack of recognition of them possessing Holy Orders. I don't have a problem with honorifics, obviously, seeing as how I have referred to various OO priests who have passed through here as Father. So the Protestant comment was uncalled for. The fact still stands that I have been required to refer to EO clerics with honorifics derived from an assumption of Holy Orders even though I don't even recognize them as having Holy Orders. The fact that it is even such an issue, however, is ridiculous. It is fine and proper for most people on here to insist that they use honorifics as an expression of their piety and to regard it as improper if others do not. But the way that honorifics are being required on this site, to the point where peoples' posts are essentially censured just for not using them, is simply out of hand.

First: if you'd like to make suggestions or ask meaningful questions about board policy, do it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25385.0.html

Second: We don't require the use of honorifics, only a minimal amount of respect as would befit an academic or reasoned discussion.  So, for example, you don't have to refer to Patriarch Bartholomew as "His All Holiness" (the honorific), but using his title (The Ecumenical Patriarch, shortened to EP, or Patriarch Bartholomew) is appropriate and expected, just as I would refer to Pope Shenouda by his title, even if I don't wish to use the honorific that would accompany it because I'm not in communion with him.  After the initial reference, saying "the Pope," or "the EP," would be appropriate and simple.

Yet I was required to refer to a clergyman here as "Father" in one of my posts.
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2010, 05:41:30 PM »

Yet I was required to refer to a clergyman here as "Father" in one of my posts.

I think that may be a blurring of the lines nowadays, but you do have the alternative, to use the title.  If you prefer to use the title, "Presbyter," then go ahead - but chose one or the other.  Thank you.
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM »

Yet I was required to refer to a clergyman here as "Father" in one of my posts.

I think that may be a blurring of the lines nowadays, but you do have the alternative, to use the title.  If you prefer to use the title, "Presbyter," then go ahead - but chose one or the other.  Thank you.

Alright.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 06:06:09 PM »

I agree with what you say in theory, the problem is it's not executed that way. When you see an Orthodox bishop, a Catholic bishop, an Anglican bishop, and various Protestant ministers standing all together at an ecumenical worship service, what does that say? It says we're all worshiping in our own way, but it's all basically the same and equally fine.

I agree with you that this is wrong but there is a diffrence between dialogue and concelebrating services. But then again what does it say when even in those situations communion is not shared. I know most protestants will welcome "anyonen who is a Christian" to their commuinoin table, but at the same time I don't see Orthodox Christians (clergy or laity) accepting that invitation or Orthodox clergy offering that invitation to non-Orthodox. I also agree that doctrine is important and that the differences do matter.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 07:20:42 PM »

Stop bashing the mods, you guys. 
Yeah! Leave them alone and get back to your bashing of the Oecumenical Patriarch!
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 09:19:42 PM »

Stop bashing the mods, you guys. 
Yeah! Leave them alone and get back to your bashing of the Oecumenical Patriarch!

Just for the record, I love His All Holiness.   Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2010, 09:25:07 PM »

Stop bashing the mods, you guys. 
Yeah! Leave them alone and get back to your bashing of the Oecumenical Patriarch!

Just for the record, I love His All Holiness.   Smiley

I "love" him as well, I just don't think that he's the center of the Church, nor its "mother."  We have a Mother, and her name is the Virgin Mary.
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