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Author Topic: Spain made the world (western and eastern) Catholic.  (Read 2537 times) Average Rating: 0
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Christianus
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« on: February 20, 2010, 04:29:45 AM »

Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.
Converted the american Indians to catholicism, and also the Filipinos, The French romans converted the franks who'd later convert parts of northern Europe.
Though some could say that a non-Spaniard converted Theodosius, but still much of the major conversions of the world, was because Spanish, which, all of you Greeks surely know that Orthodoxy is the State religion of Greece, because a Spaniard made it so.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 04:30:48 AM by Christianus » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 04:35:49 AM »

Hmmm. So where does Apostle Paul fit in?  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 04:45:03 AM »

Hmmm. So where does Apostle Paul fit in?  Wink
Apostle Paul made Spaniards Catholics² who'd eventually convert the Roman Empire to Christianity.




² Rom 15:24  Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 10:55:14 AM »

Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.

So we can credit and blame Seville for Catholicism and heresy?

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism, and also the Filipinos, The French romans converted the franks who'd later convert parts of northern Europe.
Though some could say that a non-Spaniard converted Theodosius, but still much of the major conversions of the world, was because Spanish, which, all of you Greeks surely know that Orthodoxy is the State religion of Greece, because a Spaniard made it so.

The problem with your syllogism is that the Empire had converted already: Theodosios' edict specifies by name the Popes of Rome and Alexandria (Damasus and Peter respectively) as the ones with whom all had to be in communion.
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 12:09:25 PM »

Really, all he may have done is put forth a declaration making it the state religion of the Roman Empire. This presupposes that there was already a significant number of Christians already in the Empire. This conversion was the the doing of the Apostles & Evangelists, not of Theodosius.

The world was already becoming Christian, I would argue that those like Constantine and Theodosius certainly helped the spread of Christianity. But, they weren't the main force behind it. The Church (and the Lord) are to credit for the spread of Christianity, not individuals.

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism
That isn't something I wouldn't exactly be proud of... Christopher Columbus isn't exactly celebrated by everyone in South America. I used to love history of groups like the Aztecs and others, and I would argue that the arrival of westerners wasn't exactly good, especially when the westerners tried to convert the Native Americans. When the Native Americans refused to convert, we all know what happened to them.

I'm personally see the Russians as more of an example to follow. When they arrived in Alaska, some of their explorers and traders definitely mistreated and harmed the Natives, but when the missionaries arrived, they peacefully converted the Natives (who had been prepared to receive Orthodoxy through their own theology) to Orthodoxy.

However... We could infinitely debate and argue the controversies of how Spain, Britain and France treated the Natives. We could point fingers all day and play the blame card to the end of time. However, I'm simply trying to point out that the West isn't so innocent when it came to converting others to Roman Catholicism.

Christianus, It's your right to support your Church, if you want to be Catholic because of your love for Latin America/Spain, then that is certainly your choice. However, even in your love for the Catholic Church & Spain, you are going to have to answer to other people on the way that country and that Church treated groups that didn't agree with them or that refused to convert.
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 12:43:51 PM »

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism
That isn't something I wouldn't exactly be proud of... Christopher Columbus isn't exactly celebrated by everyone in South America. I used to love history of groups like the Aztecs and others, and I would argue that the arrival of westerners wasn't exactly good, especially when the westerners tried to convert the Native Americans. When the Native Americans refused to convert, we all know what happened to them.

I'm personally see the Russians as more of an example to follow. When they arrived in Alaska, some of their explorers and traders definitely mistreated and harmed the Natives, but when the missionaries arrived, they peacefully converted the Natives (who had been prepared to receive Orthodoxy through their own theology) to Orthodoxy.

However... We could infinitely debate and argue the controversies of how Spain, Britain and France treated the Natives. We could point fingers all day and play the blame card to the end of time. However, I'm simply trying to point out that the West isn't so innocent when it came to converting others to Roman Catholicism.

Christianus, It's your right to support your Church, if you want to be Catholic because of your love for Latin America/Spain, then that is certainly your choice. However, even in your love for the Catholic Church & Spain, you are going to have to answer to other people on the way that country and that Church treated groups that didn't agree with them or that refused to convert.

Yea, I'd have to agree with Devin on this one. "Convert or die by my sword" isn't exactly what Christ was talking about in the Great Commission.

Saint Innocent of Alaska, Saint Herman of Alaska; this is what we are called to do.

P.S. Saint Peter the Aleut became a martyr because the Catholic priests in San Francisco (at the time Spanish territory) refused to recognize his Orthodox faith as a Christian one. When he refused to denounce Orthodoxy, they tortured and killed him.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:44:42 PM by HandmaidenofGod » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 02:45:36 AM »

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism
That isn't something I wouldn't exactly be proud of... Christopher Columbus isn't exactly celebrated by everyone in South America. I used to love history of groups like the Aztecs and others, and I would argue that the arrival of westerners wasn't exactly good, especially when the westerners tried to convert the Native Americans. When the Native Americans refused to convert, we all know what happened to them.

I'm personally see the Russians as more of an example to follow. When they arrived in Alaska, some of their explorers and traders definitely mistreated and harmed the Natives, but when the missionaries arrived, they peacefully converted the Natives (who had been prepared to receive Orthodoxy through their own theology) to Orthodoxy.

However... We could infinitely debate and argue the controversies of how Spain, Britain and France treated the Natives. We could point fingers all day and play the blame card to the end of time. However, I'm simply trying to point out that the West isn't so innocent when it came to converting others to Roman Catholicism.

Christianus, It's your right to support your Church, if you want to be Catholic because of your love for Latin America/Spain, then that is certainly your choice. However, even in your love for the Catholic Church & Spain, you are going to have to answer to other people on the way that country and that Church treated groups that didn't agree with them or that refused to convert.

Yea, I'd have to agree with Devin on this one. "Convert or die by my sword" isn't exactly what Christ was talking about in the Great Commission.

Saint Innocent of Alaska, Saint Herman of Alaska; this is what we are called to do.

P.S. Saint Peter the Aleut became a martyr because the Catholic priests in San Francisco (at the time Spanish territory) refused to recognize his Orthodox faith as a Christian one. When he refused to denounce Orthodoxy, they tortured and killed him.
That's the very problem I have in Roman Catholicism, but I still desire to be part of that so called ancient western orthodox church that became papist.
I want a Latin mass, though it probably won't happen, I personally think that the orthodox church is the church of peace, the western one to be so bellic.
whatever happened to preaching the gospel in their native language? I just want orthodoxy to be in Spanish and maybe in Latin. anyone understands what I want?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 02:48:57 AM by Christianus » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 03:02:16 AM »


Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.

This seems like a double standard. The first is referring to who civilly established Trinitarian orthodoxy. The second is referring to who started filioquism, rather than to who civilly established it. If we were to apply the same principle to the second listing, then it should go to the Franks.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 03:03:10 AM »

BTW, what are you meaning by "Catholic" in this thread?
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 03:19:55 AM »


Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.

This seems like a double standard. The first is referring to who civilly established Trinitarian orthodoxy. The second is referring to who started filioquism, rather than to who civilly established it. If we were to apply the same principle to the second listing, then it should go to the Franks.
Saint isidore IS a saint in the orthodox church, I"m just stating the facts of what happened.
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2010, 03:21:43 AM »

BTW, what are you meaning by "Catholic" in this thread?
By Catholic I mean Western and Eastern catholicism, when I say catholic I don't specifically mean roman catholic, because the orthodox church is Catholic.
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 03:26:10 AM »

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism
That isn't something I wouldn't exactly be proud of... Christopher Columbus isn't exactly celebrated by everyone in South America. I used to love history of groups like the Aztecs and others, and I would argue that the arrival of westerners wasn't exactly good, especially when the westerners tried to convert the Native Americans. When the Native Americans refused to convert, we all know what happened to them.

I'm personally see the Russians as more of an example to follow. When they arrived in Alaska, some of their explorers and traders definitely mistreated and harmed the Natives, but when the missionaries arrived, they peacefully converted the Natives (who had been prepared to receive Orthodoxy through their own theology) to Orthodoxy.

However... We could infinitely debate and argue the controversies of how Spain, Britain and France treated the Natives. We could point fingers all day and play the blame card to the end of time. However, I'm simply trying to point out that the West isn't so innocent when it came to converting others to Roman Catholicism.

Christianus, It's your right to support your Church, if you want to be Catholic because of your love for Latin America/Spain, then that is certainly your choice. However, even in your love for the Catholic Church & Spain, you are going to have to answer to other people on the way that country and that Church treated groups that didn't agree with them or that refused to convert.

Yea, I'd have to agree with Devin on this one. "Convert or die by my sword" isn't exactly what Christ was talking about in the Great Commission.

Saint Innocent of Alaska, Saint Herman of Alaska; this is what we are called to do.

P.S. Saint Peter the Aleut became a martyr because the Catholic priests in San Francisco (at the time Spanish territory) refused to recognize his Orthodox faith as a Christian one. When he refused to denounce Orthodoxy, they tortured and killed him.


"It should be noted that there are substantial questions as to the veracity of this story. The entire scenario is based on the testimony of a single witness (a Russian-Alaskan of dubious reputation, perhaps with the name of Keglii Ivan), no similar occurrence ever took place in the history of the Spanish mission in California and there is no independent historical text or confirmation of this event having taken place. Bancroft, in his multi-volume History of California briefly notes this story, but there is ample reason to be suspicious of the events of St. Peter's martyrdom.

This story is perhaps much more a statement of the distrust and competition that was transpiring between Russian and Spanish interests along the California coast line. It is also very reflective of similar stories that have become part of the hagiography of Christendom throughout the centuries (See St. Victorinus - Feb. 25th, D. 284; St. Arcadius - Jan. 12, D. 304?; Sts. Anastasia and Cyril - Oct. 28 D. ?; St. James Intereisus - Nov. 27 D. 421). There are, however, numberous accounts of Russians and Aleuts who escaped brutal treatment aboard Russian ships to the relative safety of the Spanish missions, some of whom even accepted baptism (see [1] for example, at Mission San Buenaventura."

-Catholic Encyclopaedia

I'm willing to believe the RCC on this. Knowing how infamous the Russians were with their progroms of the Jews and subjugation of native peoples such as the Tatars and Siberians, why should I trust the testimony of 1 person over the documented historical facts that the RCC gathered persecuted natives at California (instead of cutting their toes off like the testimony of this Russian Keglii Ivan, who by the way wrote this a century after the "supposed" occurrence).
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 03:28:41 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers.
The Orthodox church had a place for Spanish people.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 03:29:47 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 03:36:10 AM »


Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.

This seems like a double standard. The first is referring to who civilly established Trinitarian orthodoxy. The second is referring to who started filioquism, rather than to who civilly established it. If we were to apply the same principle to the second listing, then it should go to the Franks.
Saint isidore IS a saint in the orthodox church, I"m just stating the facts of what happened.

But, as I said, if you are speaking of civil and popular establishment, the filioque is more a work of the Franks than Spaniards.

Are you not aware of the Oriental Orthodox? Do you not realize that Isidore comes after the Chalcedonian schism and thus that he is not recognized as a Saint in the OO Tradition?
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 03:37:45 AM »

BTW, what are you meaning by "Catholic" in this thread?
By Catholic I mean Western and Eastern catholicism, when I say catholic I don't specifically mean roman catholic, because the orthodox church is Catholic.


When you say "Eastern Catholicism", do you mean those of the Eastern rites in communion with Rome or the Eastern Orthodox?
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 03:40:08 AM »


I'm willing to believe the RCC on this. Knowing how infamous the Russians were with their progroms of the Jews and subjugation of native peoples such as the Tatars and Siberians, why should I trust the testimony of 1 person over the documented historical facts that the RCC gathered persecuted natives at California (instead of cutting their toes off like the testimony of this Russian Keglii Ivan, who by the way wrote this a century after the "supposed" occurrence).

I'm tired of the ACE fawning over Rome. Just join them already.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 03:41:42 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.

The issue was over Spaniards who were already ~500 years removed from Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 03:46:58 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.

The issue was over Spaniards who were already ~500 years removed from Eastern Orthodoxy.
under appreciation.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 03:48:13 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.

The issue was over Spaniards who were already ~500 years removed from Eastern Orthodoxy.
under appreciation.

You can't say that the Spanish Orthodox heritage is being under appreciated on the basis of comments made about Spanish Papists.
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2010, 03:59:48 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.

The issue was over Spaniards who were already ~500 years removed from Eastern Orthodoxy.
under appreciation.

You can't say that the Spanish Orthodox heritage is being under appreciated on the basis of comments made about Spanish Papists.
Spanish papists?
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 04:06:15 AM »

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism
That isn't something I wouldn't exactly be proud of... Christopher Columbus isn't exactly celebrated by everyone in South America. I used to love history of groups like the Aztecs and others, and I would argue that the arrival of westerners wasn't exactly good, especially when the westerners tried to convert the Native Americans. When the Native Americans refused to convert, we all know what happened to them.

I'm personally see the Russians as more of an example to follow. When they arrived in Alaska, some of their explorers and traders definitely mistreated and harmed the Natives, but when the missionaries arrived, they peacefully converted the Natives (who had been prepared to receive Orthodoxy through their own theology) to Orthodoxy.

However... We could infinitely debate and argue the controversies of how Spain, Britain and France treated the Natives. We could point fingers all day and play the blame card to the end of time. However, I'm simply trying to point out that the West isn't so innocent when it came to converting others to Roman Catholicism.

Christianus, It's your right to support your Church, if you want to be Catholic because of your love for Latin America/Spain, then that is certainly your choice. However, even in your love for the Catholic Church & Spain, you are going to have to answer to other people on the way that country and that Church treated groups that didn't agree with them or that refused to convert.

Yea, I'd have to agree with Devin on this one. "Convert or die by my sword" isn't exactly what Christ was talking about in the Great Commission.

Saint Innocent of Alaska, Saint Herman of Alaska; this is what we are called to do.

P.S. Saint Peter the Aleut became a martyr because the Catholic priests in San Francisco (at the time Spanish territory) refused to recognize his Orthodox faith as a Christian one. When he refused to denounce Orthodoxy, they tortured and killed him.


"It should be noted that there are substantial questions as to the veracity of this story. The entire scenario is based on the testimony of a single witness (a Russian-Alaskan of dubious reputation, perhaps with the name of Keglii Ivan), no similar occurrence ever took place in the history of the Spanish mission in California and there is no independent historical text or confirmation of this event having taken place. Bancroft, in his multi-volume History of California briefly notes this story, but there is ample reason to be suspicious of the events of St. Peter's martyrdom.

This story is perhaps much more a statement of the distrust and competition that was transpiring between Russian and Spanish interests along the California coast line. It is also very reflective of similar stories that have become part of the hagiography of Christendom throughout the centuries (See St. Victorinus - Feb. 25th, D. 284; St. Arcadius - Jan. 12, D. 304?; Sts. Anastasia and Cyril - Oct. 28 D. ?; St. James Intereisus - Nov. 27 D. 421). There are, however, numberous accounts of Russians and Aleuts who escaped brutal treatment aboard Russian ships to the relative safety of the Spanish missions, some of whom even accepted baptism (see [1] for example, at Mission San Buenaventura."

-Catholic Encyclopaedia

I'm willing to believe the RCC on this. Knowing how infamous the Russians were with their progroms of the Jews and subjugation of native peoples such as the Tatars and Siberians, why should I trust the testimony of 1 person over the documented historical facts that the RCC gathered persecuted natives at California (instead of cutting their toes off like the testimony of this Russian Keglii Ivan, who by the way wrote this a century after the "supposed" occurrence).
Yes, I've seen this question of the veracity of the accounts regarding my patron saint before--it's nothing new to me.  However, there may be substantiation from other sources you might want to consider.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to acquire the primary source, Hubert Howe Bancroft's multi-volume History of California, but I do have this secondary reference to this work from http://wapedia.mobi/en/Peter_the_Aleut:
Quote
Hubert Howe Bancroft, in his multi-volume History of California, only notes that, in connection with an incident wherein a Russian fur-hunting expedition was taken into custody after declining to leave San Pedro, one Russian source accused "the Spaniards of cruelty to the captives, stating that according to Kuskof’s report one Aleut who refused to become a Catholic died from ill-treatment received from the padre at San Francisco."

Something else to consider (from the same web page):
Quote
An account of the martyrdom of Peter the Aleut is contained in a lengthy letter written on Nov. 22, 1865, by Symeon Ivanovich Yanovsky to Damascene, abbot of the Valaam Monastery in Russia. Yanovsky (1789-1876), who is also one of the chief sources of information about St. Herman of Alaska, was chief manager of the Russian colonies from 1818-1820. In the letter he was reporting on an incident that he had heard from a supposed eyewitness, and that had taken place in 1815, that is, a half a century earlier. The letter contains the description of Peter being tortured by "Jesuits": the Jesuit order had been suppressed in 1773, and had only been reconstituted in 1814. There were in 1815 no Jesuits within a thousand miles of California. There were Franciscans in California at the time. Yanovsky adds, "At the time I reported all this to the Head Office in St. Petersburg." And indeed, this earlier communication, his official dispatch to the company's main office—dated Feb. 15, 1820, five years after the event—also relates the story of St. Peter's martyrdom, albeit with different details.

The details of my patron's life and martyrdom may indeed be sketchy, but the accounts appear to have enough of that "seal of approval" from official sources to be somewhat believable.
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 05:06:26 AM »

I'm not even Roman Catholic, I'm just trying to find my place in orthodoxy, and one of you said something like, that I shouldn't be proud to be a Spanish descendant of these settlers:
The Spanish people had an important place in orthodoxy, yet I feel like it's sadly ignored and under appreciated.

The issue was over Spaniards who were already ~500 years removed from Eastern Orthodoxy.
under appreciation.

You can't say that the Spanish Orthodox heritage is being under appreciated on the basis of comments made about Spanish Papists.
Spanish papists?

Those commonly called "Catholics". The point is that a comment about a group of Spaniards who were part of the Roman church after it departed from orthodoxy does not reflect on the Spanish Orthodox heritage, as Spanish Orthodoxy had already been squelched by that time.
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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2010, 11:52:47 AM »

Quote
I just want orthodoxy to be in Spanish and maybe in Latin. anyone understands what I want?
Diocese of Mexico (OCA)
Exarcado de Mexicano de la Iglesia Ortodoxa en America
Iglesia Catolica Apostolica Ortodoxa de Antioquia

The Orthodox Church in Mexico (Video)

Even in the US there are Spanish speaking Orthodox Parishes:
St. George Orthodox Church Ministries

Liturgical texts in Spanish:
Diocese of the South - Spanish Liturgical Texts

More:
Ecclesia Brasil
St. Peter of Cetinje Orthodox Missionary Brotherhood

Podcast about an Orthodox Mission in New Mexico:
Musing on Mission

There is a lot more out there, however I didn't post many that I found since I cannot speak/read Spanish very well. (and thus was unable to tell if they were authentic Orthodox sites)
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2010, 12:29:09 PM »

Another podcast:
Illumined Heart - Viva Ortodoxia!
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2010, 04:27:48 PM »

PTA, I just express a lot of doubt on this story. I mean..."Jesuit inquisitors" in California? The Jesuits were not inquisitors, there were no Jesuits in San Francisco (the order was I think even temporarily abolished at the time), the only priests in California were Franciscans who had a reputation for helping the needy, the Russians seemed much more intolerant than the Spanish at the time, and the OC was needing a patron Saint for the Aleuts. This has a tinge of recycled protestant propaganda too, whenever I hear about "the Jesuits" I immediately think Calvinist. It could be true though, if so I apologize to Peter the Aleut (your patron Saint).
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2010, 04:42:51 PM »

Arzobispado Ortodoxo Griego de España y Portugal
Sacro Arzobispado Ortodoxo de Mexico
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 07:07:30 PM »

PTA, I just express a lot of doubt on this story. I mean..."Jesuit inquisitors" in California? The Jesuits were not inquisitors, there were no Jesuits in San Francisco (the order was I think even temporarily abolished at the time), the only priests in California were Franciscans who had a reputation for helping the needy, the Russians seemed much more intolerant than the Spanish at the time, and the OC was needing a patron Saint for the Aleuts. This has a tinge of recycled protestant propaganda too, whenever I hear about "the Jesuits" I immediately think Calvinist. It could be true though, if so I apologize to Peter the Aleut (your patron Saint).


OrthodoxWiki - St. Peter the Aleut
Quote
In 1815 a group of Aleut seal and otter hunters, including Peter, were captured by Spanish sailors, who took them to San Francisco for interrogation. With threats of torture, the Roman Catholic priests in California attempted to force the Aleuts to deny their Orthodox faith and to convert to Roman Catholicism.
When the Aleuts refused, the priest had a toe severed from each of Peter's feet. Peter still refused to renounce his faith and the Spanish priest ordered a group of California Indians to cut off each finger of Peter's hands, one joint at a time, finally removing both his hands. They eventually disemboweled him, crowning his life with martyrdom. They were about to torture the next Aleut when orders were received to release them under escort to their monastery in Monterey.
Upon receiving the report of Peter's death from Simeon Yanovsky, St. Herman back on Kodiak Island was moved to cry out, "Holy new-martyr Peter, pray to God for us!" Peter the Aleut was formally recognized as a saint, as the "Martyr of San Francisco", in 1980. We have the account of St. Peter's martyrdom from Simeon Yanovsky as related him by St. Peter's cellmate who escaped torture. Simeon Yanovsky ended his life as the schemamonk Sergius in the St. Tikhon of Kaluga Monastery, and is the author of The Life of St. Herman of Alaska.

OCA - St. Peter the Aleut
Quote
"On another occasion I was relating to him how the Spanish in California had imprisoned fourteen Aleuts, and how the Jesuits (actually Franciscans) were forcing all of them to accept the Catholic Faith. But the Aleuts would not agree under any circumstances, saying, 'We are Christians.' The Jesuits argued, 'That's not true, you are heretics and schismatics. If you do not agree to accept our faith then we will torture all of you to death.' Then the Aleuts were placed in prisons two to a cell. That evening, the Jesuits came to the prison with lanterns and lighted candles. Again they tried to persuade two Aleuts in the cell to accept the Catholic Faith. 'We are Christians,' the Aleuts replied, 'and we will not change our Faith.' Then the Jesuits began to torture them, at first the one while his companion was a witness. They cut off one of the joints of his feet, and then the other joint. Then they cut the first joint on the fingers of his hands, and then the other joint. Then they cut off his feet, and his hands. The blood flowed, but the martyr endured all and firmly repeated one thing: "I am a Christian.' He died in such suffering, due to a loss of blood. The Jesuit also promised to torture his comrade to death the next day.
Emphasis mine

Wikipedia - St. Peter the Aleut
Quote
According to the most fully-developed version of the story, in 1815 a group of Russian employees of the Russian American Company and their Aleut seal and otter hunters, including Peter, was captured by Spanish soldiers, while hunting illicitly for seals near San Pedro. According to the original account, the soldiers took them to "Mission San Pedro" for interrogation . One Russian source states that after being taken prisoner near modern Los Angeles, the captives were taken to Mission Dolores—that is, modern San Francisco. With threats of torture, the Roman Catholic priests attempted to force the Aleuts to deny their Orthodox faith and to convert to Roman Catholicism.[2]
When the Aleuts refused, the priest had a toe severed from each of Peter's feet. Peter still refused to renounce his faith and the Spanish priest ordered a group of Native Americans indigenous to California to cut off each finger of Peter's hands, one joint at a time, finally removing both his hands.[2] They eventually disemboweled him, making him a martyr to the Eastern Orthodox faith. They were about to torture the next Aleut when orders were received to release them.
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2010, 08:22:12 PM »

PTA, I just express a lot of doubt on this story. I mean..."Jesuit inquisitors" in California? The Jesuits were not inquisitors, there were no Jesuits in San Francisco (the order was I think even temporarily abolished at the time), the only priests in California were Franciscans who had a reputation for helping the needy, the Russians seemed much more intolerant than the Spanish at the time, and the OC was needing a patron Saint for the Aleuts. This has a tinge of recycled protestant propaganda too, whenever I hear about "the Jesuits" I immediately think Calvinist. It could be true though, if so I apologize to Peter the Aleut (your patron Saint).
The problem I see is that you're getting too hung up on the details.  So what if the padres who persecuted St. Peter were Franciscans misidentified as Jesuits?  A reputation for helping the needy does not rule out the possibly of persecuting "heretics" and "schismatics".  The appearance of greater intolerance could be your personal perception.  And your implication that the [Russian] Orthodox Church would fabricate a story just to give the Aleuts a patron saint appears to be nothing more than personal speculation put forward to slander the Orthodox Church, a church that you have already spent a lot of time on this forum criticizing and trying to steal sheep from.  Can you give me good reason to believe your motives are more pure than they appear to be and that your doubts are well founded?
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2010, 08:36:11 PM »

Theodosius the Great (from my ancient city of Seville) made Christianity the state religion of Rome (meaning of Greece, Italy, France, Roman Britain, Northern Africa, Egypt, etc)
The Filioque was introduced in Toledo, though Saint Isidore was from Seville.

So we can credit and blame Seville for Catholicism and heresy?

Quote
Converted the american Indians to catholicism, and also the Filipinos, The French romans converted the franks who'd later convert parts of northern Europe.
Though some could say that a non-Spaniard converted Theodosius, but still much of the major conversions of the world, was because Spanish, which, all of you Greeks surely know that Orthodoxy is the State religion of Greece, because a Spaniard made it so.

The problem with your syllogism is that the Empire had converted already: Theodosios' edict specifies by name the Popes of Rome and Alexandria (Damasus and Peter respectively) as the ones with whom all had to be in communion.
no you can blame Toledo, not Seville.
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2010, 08:42:04 PM »

Christianus, did you get a chance to check out the links above? (#23, #24 & #26)
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2010, 08:44:41 PM »

There's a bit more on the story here - largely of a revisionist or skeptical bent though, so be forewarned. Interestingly enough (don't laugh) the author of the piece is a member of the Society of Jesus.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2007/2007-3.html
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2010, 09:37:55 PM »

There's a bit more on the story here - largely of a revisionist or skeptical bent though, so be forewarned. Interestingly enough (don't laugh) the author of the piece is a member of the Society of Jesus.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2007/2007-3.html

The skepticism I can see.  However, I wonder what you see as revisionist.  The truth be told, this is probably the most thorough and balanced treatment of the controversy of St. Peter the Aleut I've had the privilege to read.
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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2010, 09:43:13 PM »

Revisionist *only* in the sense that it differs from, or corrects, accounts found on Wikipedia and elsewhere online.

Fr. Bucko maintains a webpage. He has a focus on Native Americans, especially Lakota/Dakota.

http://puffin.creighton.edu/Bucko/research/research.html

He seems to have assisted a Catholic iconographer as well, in an image that was referenced at Wikipedia:
http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/icons/icon_peter_aleut.html

Quote
Attributes: portrayed as an Aleut youth, wearing a traditional gut parka[1]

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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2010, 09:51:20 PM »

Christianus, did you get a chance to check out the links above? (#23, #24 & #26)
Yeah, the ones about Peter the Aleut.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2010, 11:00:38 PM »

Christianus, did you get a chance to check out the links above? (#23, #24 & #26)
Yeah, the ones about Peter the Aleut.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was talking about the links above in Reply numbers 23, 24 and 26. You had asked about Orthodoxy in Spanish. The links are to sites about Orthodoxy in Latin & South America, as well as a couple podcasts, one of which is about ministry to hispanics in the United States. There is also a video showing a Divine Liturgy being served in Spanish (I think it is at a Church in Mexico City).
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2010, 02:23:06 AM »

Christianus, did you get a chance to check out the links above? (#23, #24 & #26)
Yeah, the ones about Peter the Aleut.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was talking about the links above in Reply numbers 23, 24 and 26. You had asked about Orthodoxy in Spanish. The links are to sites about Orthodoxy in Latin & South America, as well as a couple podcasts, one of which is about ministry to hispanics in the United States. There is also a video showing a Divine Liturgy being served in Spanish (I think it is at a Church in Mexico City).
oh yeah I checked some out, thanks man, all that's needed now is the restoration of the Latin church, at heart, I'm a Christian Catholic, but I wasn't born into it, because my father's side is protestant, I love the catholic church, but I"m not sure which one to go to, to the western or the eastern.
That's great that the liturgy's in Spanish.
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2010, 05:42:38 AM »

PTA, I just express a lot of doubt on this story. I mean..."Jesuit inquisitors" in California? The Jesuits were not inquisitors, there were no Jesuits in San Francisco (the order was I think even temporarily abolished at the time), the only priests in California were Franciscans who had a reputation for helping the needy, the Russians seemed much more intolerant than the Spanish at the time, and the OC was needing a patron Saint for the Aleuts. This has a tinge of recycled protestant propaganda too, whenever I hear about "the Jesuits" I immediately think Calvinist. It could be true though, if so I apologize to Peter the Aleut (your patron Saint).

The Jesuits had been restored the year before St. Peter's martyrdom, and recalled by the King of Spain the same year.  Prior to that, the Jesuits existed only in Russia, hence most likely the only Latin priests any Russian Orthodox had seen.  As for the alleged tinge of Protestant propoganda, the Orthodox have learned about the Jesuits themselves.
We have discussed some of this before:
The epitomy of it was the rather dogmatic statement made as a matter of fact, that the "Catholic Chruch and the Russian Orthodox Church are sisters Churches....virtually identical in theology," and the reference to the Latin bishops as "brother priests" to the Orthodox bishops.  The PoM response to the Horos of the council of Ravenna says otherwise.  Russia has seen what the Vatican has done to the sister Churches of Serbia, Czech Republic etc.  They aren't stupid.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
hasn't changed.
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2010, 12:02:01 PM »

PTA, I just express a lot of doubt on this story. I mean..."Jesuit inquisitors" in California? The Jesuits were not inquisitors, there were no Jesuits in San Francisco (the order was I think even temporarily abolished at the time), the only priests in California were Franciscans who had a reputation for helping the needy, the Russians seemed much more intolerant than the Spanish at the time, and the OC was needing a patron Saint for the Aleuts. This has a tinge of recycled protestant propaganda too, whenever I hear about "the Jesuits" I immediately think Calvinist. It could be true though, if so I apologize to Peter the Aleut (your patron Saint).

The Jesuits had been restored the year before St. Peter's martyrdom, and recalled by the King of Spain the same year.  Prior to that, the Jesuits existed only in Russia, hence most likely the only Latin priests any Russian Orthodox had seen.  As for the alleged tinge of Protestant propoganda, the Orthodox have learned about the Jesuits themselves.
We have discussed some of this before:
The epitomy of it was the rather dogmatic statement made as a matter of fact, that the "Catholic Chruch and the Russian Orthodox Church are sisters Churches....virtually identical in theology," and the reference to the Latin bishops as "brother priests" to the Orthodox bishops.  The PoM response to the Horos of the council of Ravenna says otherwise.  Russia has seen what the Vatican has done to the sister Churches of Serbia, Czech Republic etc.  They aren't stupid.
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
hasn't changed.

OC=RCC in terms of Dogma, Theology, History. Sounds like recycled protestant propaganda to me. Further, If Russia wants to be a Greek backyard instead of a latin backyard its their choice.
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2010, 12:02:02 PM »

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Russia has seen what the Vatican has done to the sister Churches of Serbia, Czech Republic etc.  They aren't stupid.


By that argument: Roman Catholics have seen how poorly off orthodox are relative to them. They aren't stupid.
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 12:02:02 PM »

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The epitomy of it was the rather dogmatic statement made as a matter of fact, that the "Catholic Chruch and the Russian Orthodox Church are sisters Churches....virtually identical in theology," and the reference to the Latin bishops as "brother priests" to the Orthodox bishops.

Ahem...ask a protestant or a Jew if that "dogmatic statement" is in their opinion true and they will say emphatically "Yes!" On one side of the continent some vikings called the Saxons, Goths, Franks,etc. became Roman Catholics based on what the Latin Popes said, on the other side another group of vikings called the Rus and so forth decided to hear what Constantinople said (or rather...were "persuaded" by some lucrative prospects upon visiting the city). Doesn't sound like too different a story to me.
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