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Author Topic: Agape Love and Non-Orthodox Christians  (Read 12845 times) Average Rating: 0
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ignatius
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« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2010, 04:34:09 PM »

Is this Church the Ark of Salvation as Noah's Ark was for those of his day? I've never heard Orthodox speak that their might be 'invisible members' in the Orthodox Church, although I have heard such in Catholicism. I have heard that "we know where grace is, but we don't know where grace isn't"...

If 'grace saves' then I guess in a fashion we can say that the 'Church' can have 'invisible members'... but I think you are stretching quite a bit to make that claim. I ultimately think that both Orthodox and Catholics 'must' loosen their own recognition of a 'spiritual body' of Christ that is simply 'not known'... as Our Lord spoke:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (Joh 3:5-8)

'The wind' to me is the spirit... we don't control where it comes nor goes yet we seem to claim that we control it. I'm uncomfortable with that claim personally.

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty understanding your point here. Would you mind clarifying?

Does this help?
Blessed Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... "
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

So if truth doesn't produce holiness, what is the purpose?
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« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2010, 05:00:37 PM »

Is this Church the Ark of Salvation as Noah's Ark was for those of his day? I've never heard Orthodox speak that their might be 'invisible members' in the Orthodox Church, although I have heard such in Catholicism. I have heard that "we know where grace is, but we don't know where grace isn't"...

If 'grace saves' then I guess in a fashion we can say that the 'Church' can have 'invisible members'... but I think you are stretching quite a bit to make that claim. I ultimately think that both Orthodox and Catholics 'must' loosen their own recognition of a 'spiritual body' of Christ that is simply 'not known'... as Our Lord spoke:

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (Joh 3:5-8)

'The wind' to me is the spirit... we don't control where it comes nor goes yet we seem to claim that we control it. I'm uncomfortable with that claim personally.

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty understanding your point here. Would you mind clarifying?

Does this help?
Blessed Theophan the Recluse: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... "
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

So if truth doesn't produce holiness, what is the purpose?

It's best to look at it from the perspective that all are saved except for me. God loves your family, friends, RC's, Protestants and heterodox even more than you do. What makes you think that any of them won't be saved.
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« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2010, 05:09:02 PM »



So if truth doesn't produce holiness, what is the purpose?

It's best to look at it from the perspective that all are saved except for me. God loves your family, friends, RC's, Protestants and heterodox even more than you do. What makes you think that any of them won't be saved.

If we recall the dualisms in the Scriptures... sheep and goats... and we marry that to Orthodox making all the exclusionary claims some are want to make... and you read some of the more polemical tracks... it seems to paint the picture that 'all' are goats except us (I am speaking for the Orthodox here).

If 'truth' doesn't necessary produce 'holiness' or 'justice' and it doesn't necessary 'save', than again I ask 'what is the point of truth'? It seems to me to be a kind of knowledge which puffs up...
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« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2010, 05:10:47 PM »

So if truth doesn't produce holiness, what is the purpose?

Again, sorry to be so dense, but still having difficulty understanding your point. Truth is surely a Good Thing on it's own merits, and actually does produce holiness. It just takes some of us longer than others!
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« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2010, 05:15:42 PM »

So if truth doesn't produce holiness, what is the purpose?

Again, sorry to be so dense, but still having difficulty understanding your point. Truth is surely a Good Thing on it's own merits, and actually does produce holiness. It just takes some of us longer than others!

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?
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« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2010, 05:20:54 PM »

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?

Are you asking me this question? Where did this come from? As I've said a couple of times before, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also you seem to be attributing to me things that I haven't said or implied. I have this eerie sensation that we are carrying on two entirely different, though possible parallel, conversations.
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« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2010, 05:36:38 PM »

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?

Are you asking me this question? Where did this come from? As I've said a couple of times before, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also you seem to be attributing to me things that I haven't said or implied. I have this eerie sensation that we are carrying on two entirely different, though possible parallel, conversations.

Yes. It comes from the line of thought embedded in the idea that 'one knows where grace is but not where it is not'... or that there may be a wider Church than the institutional one that we all know and claim to be members of.
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« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2010, 05:48:29 PM »

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?

Are you asking me this question? Where did this come from? As I've said a couple of times before, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also you seem to be attributing to me things that I haven't said or implied. I have this eerie sensation that we are carrying on two entirely different, though possible parallel, conversations.

Yes. It comes from the line of thought embedded in the idea that 'one knows where grace is but not where it is not'... or that there may be a wider Church than the institutional one that we all know and claim to be members of.

Well, now, I wonder if, taking the metaphor of marriage, one can be separated by degrees from one's spouse. In one sense, yes, because it may be the little everyday irritations and such like that we allow to come between husband and wife. In another sense, though, the answer would be no, because one step away or turning one's back has strained, if not broken the connection, the covenant? Of course, that connection can be restored.
There may be a wider Church - after all, "there's a wideness in God's mercy..." What difference does it make, since we know where the One Holy and Catholic and Apostolic Church is? Why would we want to be away from it or separate ourselves from it, willingly?
As Blessed Theophan put it, we should see to ourselves and our own sins, and leave others to God's mercy.
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« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2010, 09:23:19 PM »

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?

Are you asking me this question? Where did this come from? As I've said a couple of times before, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also you seem to be attributing to me things that I haven't said or implied. I have this eerie sensation that we are carrying on two entirely different, though possible parallel, conversations.

Yes. It comes from the line of thought embedded in the idea that 'one knows where grace is but not where it is not'... or that there may be a wider Church than the institutional one that we all know and claim to be members of.
Listen friend, I think you concern yourself to much with other peoples salvation. You must look at it from a different prospective and not through the eye's of the RCC. God who is infinitely much more merciful than you or I will ever be. Is looking out for them just as he is looking out for you. If he has led you here and not the others is not your concern. If you really want to do your part then the image of the god you portray will be what they see and be drawn to. Your words may never convince anyone.
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« Reply #99 on: February 18, 2010, 09:54:48 AM »

So are you saying what I think St. Basil suggested that truth is gained and lost 'in degrees'... one is separated from that holy Body of Christ by degrees...?

Are you asking me this question? Where did this come from? As I've said a couple of times before, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also you seem to be attributing to me things that I haven't said or implied. I have this eerie sensation that we are carrying on two entirely different, though possible parallel, conversations.

Yes. It comes from the line of thought embedded in the idea that 'one knows where grace is but not where it is not'... or that there may be a wider Church than the institutional one that we all know and claim to be members of.
Listen friend, I think you concern yourself to much with other peoples salvation. You must look at it from a different prospective and not through the eye's of the RCC. God who is infinitely much more merciful than you or I will ever be. Is looking out for them just as he is looking out for you. If he has led you here and not the others is not your concern. If you really want to do your part then the image of the god you portray will be what they see and be drawn to. Your words may never convince anyone.

I understand what you are saying but it's tough to discard this topic when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

For example, God Parents... in Orthodoxy can't be Baptists nor Catholics. We don't have 'any' family who would be able to be given the honor of being my child's God Parents... that would have to go to strangers. It's going to be a really big blow to our larger family. When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.
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« Reply #100 on: February 18, 2010, 10:21:51 AM »

...when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

...When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.

You're absolutely right - it is a real problem, if for no other reason than because the above statement about not being "good enough" seems to reflect a serious misunderstanding of the Orthodox Church. It's not about people being good enough, it's about the communion of belief. Your RCC and Baptist relatives do not hold the same beliefs, indeed they may even believe totally different things, so how could they (why would they even want to?) promise, in good conscience, to be a spiritual "parent" to a child who will be raised in the Orthodox Church?

(And, just btw, your situation of an extended family who are not Orthodox is certainly not unique. Many, if not most, of the people who post here are in the same situation, which causes them problems, to a greater or lesser extent.)
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« Reply #101 on: February 18, 2010, 10:26:25 AM »

For example, God Parents... in Orthodoxy can't be Baptists nor Catholics. We don't have 'any' family who would be able to be given the honor of being my child's God Parents... that would have to go to strangers. It's going to be a really big blow to our larger family. When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.
I was raised Protestant, and my godparents weren't related to me in any way. I don't think it has anything to do with not being "good enough" for Orthodoxy. It sounds like you're just making excuses.
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« Reply #102 on: February 18, 2010, 10:31:50 AM »

...when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

...When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.

You're absolutely right - it is a real problem, if for no other reason than because the above statement about not being "good enough" seems to reflect a serious misunderstanding of the Orthodox Church. It's not about people being good enough, it's about the communion of belief. Your RCC and Baptist relatives do not hold the same beliefs, indeed they may even believe totally different things, so how could they (why would they even want to?) promise, in good conscience, to be a spiritual "parent" to a child who will be raised in the Orthodox Church?

(And, just btw, your situation of an extended family who are not Orthodox is certainly not unique. Many, if not most, of the people who post here are in the same situation, which causes them problems, to a greater or lesser extent.)


It has been a long standing practice in our family that the God-Parents would be the first to adopt the children if the parents pass a way. The choice of God-Parents is a very big deal with my family and they don't like the idea of 'doctrine' and 'strangers' getting in between 'blood'. They think it is 'cult-ish' and 'invasive' to the family and child. I understand their point. I know my family would do what I wished them to do if I asked them, even to the extent of raising my child in a religious practice that is not there own. If the child isn't in danger of damnation, then why do they 'have' to be raised by Orthodox God-Parents and not by family who love them and are willing to 'vow' to raise them as such?
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« Reply #103 on: February 18, 2010, 10:35:37 AM »

For example, God Parents... in Orthodoxy can't be Baptists nor Catholics. We don't have 'any' family who would be able to be given the honor of being my child's God Parents... that would have to go to strangers. It's going to be a really big blow to our larger family. When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.
I was raised Protestant, and my godparents weren't related to me in any way. I don't think it has anything to do with not being "good enough" for Orthodoxy. It sounds like you're just making excuses.

You guys must not have tight extended family bonds for something... my family is up in arms over the welfare of my children.
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« Reply #104 on: February 18, 2010, 10:38:26 AM »

It has been a long standing practice in our family that the God-Parents would be the first to adopt the children if the parents pass a way. The choice of God-Parents is a very big deal with my family and they don't like the idea of 'doctrine' and 'strangers' getting in between 'blood'. They think it is 'cult-ish' and 'invasive' to the family and child. I understand their point. I know my family would do what I wished them to do if I asked them, even to the extent of raising my child in a religious practice that is not there own. If the child isn't in danger of damnation, then why do they 'have' to be raised by Orthodox God-Parents and not by family who love them and are willing to 'vow' to raise them as such?
Because the role of the godparent, according to Orthodox understanding, is different from your family's understanding and traditions, like so many other things. "...the godparent is responsible for the spiritual up bringing of your child. You should think of the person as becoming a member of your family and a relationship that will be lifelong...In Greek tradition, the best man (koumbaros) or Brides Maid (koumbara) of the parents wedding will baptize the couple's first child.

...As the Godparent is the sponsor at baptism, it should be realized that only someone who is a member in good standing of the Orthodox church, in full sacramental communion, and knows at least the main tenets of the Christian faith and its ethics, as well as the meaning of the mystery of baptism and of the vows which are given in the name of the baptized which are to be conveyed and explained to the latter when he has reached maturity. Thus, the sponsor at baptism cannot be:

a minor, i.e. a boy younger than 15, or a girl less than 13;
someone ignorant of the faith;
someone guilty of overt sins, or in general a person who in the opinion of the community has fallen in his or her moral life;
a non-orthodox Christian. Parents may not be sponsors of their own children; on the contrary, should this occur, the very matrimonial bond of the parents should be dissolved in accordance with Canon 53 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, since sponsorship creates a spiritual relationship considered by the Church in this canon to be more important than "the union according to the flesh.""
http://www.orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Piety-About%20Being%20a%20Godparent
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« Reply #105 on: February 18, 2010, 11:37:30 AM »

I understand what you are saying but it's tough to discard this topic when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

For example, God Parents... in Orthodoxy can't be Baptists nor Catholics. We don't have 'any' family who would be able to be given the honor of being my child's God Parents... that would have to go to strangers. It's going to be a really big blow to our larger family. When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.
So, do you have Baptist relatives who are godparents to your Catholic relatives? If they agreed to it, and the RC Church allows it, they really aren't good Baptists. I would question their faith.

Quote
It has been a long standing practice in our family that the God-Parents would be the first to adopt the children if the parents pass a way. The choice of God-Parents is a very big deal with my family and they don't like the idea of 'doctrine' and 'strangers' getting in between 'blood'. They think it is 'cult-ish' and 'invasive' to the family and child. I understand their point. I know my family would do what I wished them to do if I asked them, even to the extent of raising my child in a religious practice that is not there own. If the child isn't in danger of damnation, then why do they 'have' to be raised by Orthodox God-Parents and not by family who love them and are willing to 'vow' to raise them as such?
I don't know what it's like where you live, but here the courts will give preference to the care of minor children to the nearest blood relative willing to take on the responsibility in the absence of a will. I could be wrong, but I'm not aware that an Orthodox godparent is required to take on the legal responsibility of raising their minor godchildren. The two are quite separate issues, though not mutually exclusive of course. For you to select a near relative to raise your children in the event of your death who is willing to allow the Orthodox godparents to continue their spiritual responsibilities would seem appropriate.

Also, it sounds like your relatives are being "cultish" by insisting that it will be their way or no way.
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« Reply #106 on: February 18, 2010, 11:49:46 AM »

I understand what you are saying but it's tough to discard this topic when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

For example, God Parents... in Orthodoxy can't be Baptists nor Catholics. We don't have 'any' family who would be able to be given the honor of being my child's God Parents... that would have to go to strangers. It's going to be a really big blow to our larger family. When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.
So, do you have Baptist relatives who are godparents to your Catholic relatives? If they agreed to it, and the RC Church allows it, they really aren't good Baptists. I would question their faith.

No... We don't. In the Roman Church only 'one' of the two God Parents needs to be Catholic in good standing but in our family we have a practice of having more than one God-Parent... typically other members of the family or very close friends of the family. For our daughter, as an example, my brother and my brother-in-law (both Baptists) carried my daughter to the Baptismal Font for Baptism. She was Baptized and my Sister-in-Law (who is Catholic) drew her from the Font with my other Sister-in-Law (Baptist) and both took her back to dress her in white and brought her back for the Chrismation and the lighting of the Baptismal Candle. For those who are Philippine they will recognize this practice... other Catholics won't.
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« Reply #107 on: February 18, 2010, 11:51:25 AM »

...when my wife and close family are Baptists and Catholics. My wife is not overly concerned with my interest in Orthodoxy but her family and my family do feel a bit alienated by it.

...When they ask 'why is it this way', then I have to get into the details of history and that fact that they are not 'good enough' for the Orthodox Church. That is a real problem.

You're absolutely right - it is a real problem, if for no other reason than because the above statement about not being "good enough" seems to reflect a serious misunderstanding of the Orthodox Church. It's not about people being good enough, it's about the communion of belief. Your RCC and Baptist relatives do not hold the same beliefs, indeed they may even believe totally different things, so how could they (why would they even want to?) promise, in good conscience, to be a spiritual "parent" to a child who will be raised in the Orthodox Church?

(And, just btw, your situation of an extended family who are not Orthodox is certainly not unique. Many, if not most, of the people who post here are in the same situation, which causes them problems, to a greater or lesser extent.)


It has been a long standing practice in our family that the God-Parents would be the first to adopt the children if the parents pass a way. The choice of God-Parents is a very big deal with my family and they don't like the idea of 'doctrine' and 'strangers' getting in between 'blood'. They think it is 'cult-ish' and 'invasive' to the family and child. I understand their point. I know my family would do what I wished them to do if I asked them, even to the extent of raising my child in a religious practice that is not there own. If the child isn't in danger of damnation, then why do they 'have' to be raised by Orthodox God-Parents and not by family who love them and are willing to 'vow' to raise them as such?
This might be apropos:
I just was reading Hebrews:

..."By faith": no distinction is made for baby Moses.

I think it means his parents' faith.

Exactly my point: Moses in the passage remains the subject, not his parents.

In faith the infants are baptized.
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« Reply #108 on: February 18, 2010, 11:55:53 AM »

my brother and my brother-in-law (both Baptists) carried my daughter to the Baptismal Font for Baptism.

I'm certainly no expert on Baptist beliefs (you'd think I would be, having grown up here in the Bible Belt), but they don't believe in infant baptism, surely? (or was she an infant? I may be getting ahead of myself). So if she was an infant, they participated, in an important, primary and prominent way, in a ritual that they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?
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« Reply #109 on: February 18, 2010, 12:14:07 PM »

my brother and my brother-in-law (both Baptists) carried my daughter to the Baptismal Font for Baptism.

I'm certainly no expert on Baptist beliefs (you'd think I would be, having grown up here in the Bible Belt), but they don't believe in infant baptism, surely? (or was she an infant? I may be getting ahead of myself). So if she was an infant, they participated, in an important, primary and prominent way, in a ritual that they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?

My brother's Son was Baptized Catholic because he is married to a Roman Catholic... I was the God-Parent because I was Catholic. I had to make vows to raise his child and mine Roman Catholic. In fact, his son attends a Catholic School.

Half of my family is Catholic and the other half are Baptists or some other Protestant Demon...
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« Reply #110 on: February 18, 2010, 12:31:17 PM »

my brother and my brother-in-law (both Baptists) carried my daughter to the Baptismal Font for Baptism.

I'm certainly no expert on Baptist beliefs (you'd think I would be, having grown up here in the Bible Belt), but they don't believe in infant baptism, surely? (or was she an infant? I may be getting ahead of myself). So if she was an infant, they participated, in an important, primary and prominent way, in a ritual that they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?

My brother's Son was Baptized Catholic because he is married to a Roman Catholic... I was the God-Parent because I was Catholic. I had to make vows to raise his child and mine Roman Catholic. In fact, his son attends a Catholic School.

Half of my family is Catholic and the other half are Baptists or some other Protestant Demon...

And that's actually the reality for most people today. IIRC, according to Pew, about half of American adults have changed their faith affiliation. My own family is a mixed bag of Lutherans, RCs (lapsed and active), a sprinkling of Baptists and other Protestants...(and we mustn't forget my cousin the Crazy Cat Lady, who's some sort of nebulous New Age-y pagan).
I still wonder why your Baptist relatives participated, and made promises as godparents, in a ritual that presumably they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?

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« Reply #111 on: February 18, 2010, 02:03:37 PM »

my brother and my brother-in-law (both Baptists) carried my daughter to the Baptismal Font for Baptism.

I'm certainly no expert on Baptist beliefs (you'd think I would be, having grown up here in the Bible Belt), but they don't believe in infant baptism, surely? (or was she an infant? I may be getting ahead of myself). So if she was an infant, they participated, in an important, primary and prominent way, in a ritual that they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?

My brother's Son was Baptized Catholic because he is married to a Roman Catholic... I was the God-Parent because I was Catholic. I had to make vows to raise his child and mine Roman Catholic. In fact, his son attends a Catholic School.

Half of my family is Catholic and the other half are Baptists or some other Protestant Demon...

And that's actually the reality for most people today. IIRC, according to Pew, about half of American adults have changed their faith affiliation. My own family is a mixed bag of Lutherans, RCs (lapsed and active), a sprinkling of Baptists and other Protestants...(and we mustn't forget my cousin the Crazy Cat Lady, who's some sort of nebulous New Age-y pagan).
I still wonder why your Baptist relatives participated, and made promises as godparents, in a ritual that presumably they didn't believe in, that was in fact directly contrary to their beliefs?

They did it because it's what 'I' believe and they love me enough to 'honor' my wishes.
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« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2010, 02:13:43 PM »

They did it because it's what 'I' believe and they love me enough to 'honor' my wishes.
And I understand the sentiment, and respect them for it, but, if the baptism was anything like a Lutheran or Orthodox baptism (sorry, but I haven't been to an RC baptism lately so don't know all the details), if they participated as godparents (not just came and rejoiced with you and showed their love and support), but actually participated as godparents, were they aware that they were making promises they had no intention of keeping to do things which they didn't believe?
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« Reply #113 on: February 18, 2010, 02:21:18 PM »

They did it because it's what 'I' believe and they love me enough to 'honor' my wishes.
And I understand the sentiment, and respect them for it, but, if the baptism was anything like a Lutheran or Orthodox baptism (sorry, but I haven't been to an RC baptism lately so don't know all the details), if they participated as godparents (not just came and rejoiced with you and showed their love and support), but actually participated as godparents, were they aware that they were making promises they had no intention of keeping to do things which they didn't believe?

The Baptismal Promises don't affirm any doctrines most Christians would be opposed to...

V. Do you reject Satan?
R. I do.
V. And all his works?
R. I do.
V. And all his empty promises?
R. I do.
V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
R. I do.

V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?
R. I do.

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
R. I do.

V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

R. Amen.

At least, none of my extended family where opposed to them. Do they 'all' understand them in the same way? Maybe not but my Priest met with all of them and he affirmed that we met the requirements established.

But this gets to the heart of our differences... you see Christians as what they 'affirm' intellectually and that appears to be of primary importance. The Orthodox Faith is very much an intellectual affair because you don't seem to understand how Christians can have disagreements and yet love and respect one another and honor one's wishes for another's child. My brother, even though he is not Catholic respects the 'good' that he finds within the Catholic Church and it's Traditions. He doesn't think that they are 'necessary' for one's salvation but he respects that they have 'value' because he sees that value in his son's education and religious growth within it's Traditions. He's views aren't so rigorous that he can't see that. He also respects the Sacraments, far more so that your 'typical' Baptist but again that is something that you guys and gals don't seem to recognize. Every Baptist isn't some 'cookie-cutter' drone manufactured from some 'Baptist-Indoctrination' factory. They are 'individuals' with their own 'individual' experiences and those experiences have served to shape and mold their understanding of the Faith. I know some Baptists who are far more 'orthodox' than some here who argue very liberal moral views yet you seem okay to share Communion with even though you don't agree with them on very much. This is part of the Liturgical view that 'sees' unity in praxis by 'not' in moral belief or lifestyle. This is where we find a bit of difference in how we determine 'real' fellowship. It shouldn't be simply in praxis... but deeper in actual moral views as well. If our Consciences aren't common, we are clearly not of 'one mind' as St. Paul exhorts. I find this just as shocking among Catholics too who share Communion but don't value the same mores.

My brother and I share Classic Christian Moral Values and in that we find commonality in our Faiths.
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« Reply #114 on: February 18, 2010, 02:40:21 PM »


But doesn't the very fact of infant baptism violate their Baptist beliefs? They were participating as principals in a sacrament (when they don't believe in sacraments) and an infant baptism (when they don't believe in that either).

FWIW, “The reason for this distinction and restriction is that the godparent not only is taking responsibility for the religious education and spiritual formation of the baptized person, but also is representing the Church, the community of faith, into which the person is being baptized. A Christian who is not Catholic, although perhaps a very holy, Christian, cannot fully attest to the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Likewise, a Catholic can only be a Christian witness for someone who is baptized into another Christian denomination. (Cf. Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism, No. 57).”
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0233.html
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« Reply #115 on: February 18, 2010, 02:51:18 PM »

But this gets to the heart of our differences... you see Christians as what they 'affirm' intellectually and that appears to be of primary importance. The Orthodox Faith is very much an intellectual affair because you don't seem to understand how Christians can have disagreements and yet love and respect one another and honor one's wishes for another's child.

No, I see Christians as people who act in accordance with their most deeply held beliefs.

I wonder how you have managed to deduce that I don't seem to understand how Christians can have disagreements and yet love and respect one another, when I have described my own family's religious affiliations to you. Or do you imagine that we sit cozily around the Thanksgiving table lecturing each other on how the other one is going to hell?

If you think that the Orthodox Faith is primarily intellectual then you have indeed missed the point, and appear to know very little about it.

Quote
some here who argue very liberal moral views yet you seem okay to share Communion with even though you don't agree with them on very much. This is part of the Liturgical view that 'sees' unity in praxis by 'not' in moral belief or lifestyle.
Wait - wait. Haven't you just contradicted yourself? Is Orthodoxy intellectual or is it grounded in praxis? Make up your mind.

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« Reply #116 on: February 18, 2010, 02:53:48 PM »


But doesn't the very fact of infant baptism violate their Baptist beliefs? They were participating as principals in a sacrament (when they don't believe in sacraments) and an infant baptism (when they don't believe in that either).

FWIW, “The reason for this distinction and restriction is that the godparent not only is taking responsibility for the religious education and spiritual formation of the baptized person, but also is representing the Church, the community of faith, into which the person is being baptized. A Christian who is not Catholic, although perhaps a very holy, Christian, cannot fully attest to the beliefs of the Catholic Church. Likewise, a Catholic can only be a Christian witness for someone who is baptized into another Christian denomination. (Cf. Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism, No. 57).”
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0233.html


Yes, this is the role all those who were not Catholic... played in the Baptism of my Daughter. On the Baptismal Certificate... only the Catholic God-Parents were listed by the rest were there as Christian Witnesses but they could participate in the Rite of Baptism in they way I outlined. This was all approved by my Priest ahead of time.

See I 'have' Catholic Family who can be the God Parents of my Children... I don't have any Orthodox Family so those key roles within our family.

Ultimately, this whole discussion highlights just how 'deep' our family is in our Catholic Roots and how difficult it would be to 'actually' convert. I've spoken with the local Orthodox Priest about this issue and he is coming over to discuss it with our family. One really nice thing about this particular Priest is that he is a convert from the Baptist Tradition and also very well versed in the Catholic Church too.
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« Reply #117 on: February 18, 2010, 02:58:24 PM »

But this gets to the heart of our differences... you see Christians as what they 'affirm' intellectually and that appears to be of primary importance. The Orthodox Faith is very much an intellectual affair because you don't seem to understand how Christians can have disagreements and yet love and respect one another and honor one's wishes for another's child.

No, I see Christians as people who act in accordance with their most deeply held beliefs.

I wonder how you have managed to deduce that I don't seem to understand how Christians can have disagreements and yet love and respect one another, when I have described my own family's religious affiliations to you. Or do you imagine that we sit cozily around the Thanksgiving table lecturing each other on how the other one is going to hell?

I'm not sure... what do you all say to one another?

Quote
If you think that the Orthodox Faith is primarily intellectual then you have indeed missed the point, and appear to know very little about it.

I find it interesting.

Quote
Quote
some here who argue very liberal moral views yet you seem okay to share Communion with even though you don't agree with them on very much. This is part of the Liturgical view that 'sees' unity in praxis by 'not' in moral belief or lifestyle.
Wait - wait. Haven't you just contradicted yourself? Is Orthodoxy intellectual or is it grounded in praxis? Make up your mind.

I didn't say that Orthodox were consistent or not hypocritical. Some seem to been both. I would say that some value praxis over creeds but other creeds over praxis and then there appear to be a few who value moral views over both but not many.
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« Reply #118 on: February 18, 2010, 04:33:29 PM »

I'm not sure... what do you all say to one another?


The same as any family, probably the same as your family, I would venture to say.

Because the role that you appear to have assigned me as an Orthodox believer doesn't actually fit. Too bad.

Of course, acknowledging that other people also have families composed of people who hold different beliefs who also love and respect one another might result in a re-examination of your own opinions of Orthodoxy and Orthodox people and we can't have that, can we? Who knows what would come of that?

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« Reply #119 on: February 18, 2010, 04:35:54 PM »

The same as any family, probably the same as your family, I would venture to say.

Because the role that you appear to have assigned me as an Orthodox believer doesn't actually fit. Too bad.

Of course, acknowledging that other people also have families composed of people who hold different beliefs who also love and respect one another might result in a re-examination of your own opinions of Orthodoxy and Orthodox people and we can't have that, can we? Who knows what would come of that?

You take me that wrong way. As I've said... Ultimately, this whole discussion highlights just how 'deep' our family is in our Catholic Roots and how difficult it would be to 'actually' convert. I've spoken with the local Orthodox Priest about this issue and he is coming over to discuss it with our family. One really nice thing about this particular Priest is that he is a convert from the Baptist Tradition and also very well versed in the Catholic Church too.
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« Reply #120 on: February 18, 2010, 06:11:02 PM »

Almost forgot, (because I was in a snit with you, to tell the truth, for which I ask your forgiveness)what my family does at Thanksgiving is mostly what my cousin (not the Crazy Cat Lady, another one) calls "telling," as in "Mama, tell about the time Uncle So-and-So tried to deep-fry the turkey but got drunk and set fire to the house, and melted the plastic siding."
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