OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 22, 2014, 08:15:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Role of the Pope  (Read 2378 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: February 08, 2010, 08:52:58 PM »

A draft text. What do you think?

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 10:58:42 PM »

I think it might be a step in the right direction.

Just my personal opinion.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 12:11:00 PM »

Grace and Peace,

Interesting piece.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 12:35:06 PM »

For starters:
Quote
Late in the first century, invoking the example of the martyrs, Peter and Paul, the Church of Rome wrote a long letter to the Church of Corinth, which had ejected its elders (1 Clem. 1, 44), and urged that unity and harmony (homonoia) be restored

The example, not the authority, of SS. Peter and Paul (the latter, always present in speaking of the Roman see in the first millenium, gets forgotten as the Vatican claims are magnified).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
AWR
Greetings from the Southern Jersey Shore.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 240


Expelled from Paradise


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 12:41:29 PM »

A draft text. What do you think?


Nothing, new.  I my option, it would take much change on both sides for the Orthodox and the Catholics to proceed from that document.  The role of the Pope today is not the same as it was in the Church in the First Millennium.

Nice, but it could be but another way:

See link - http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php
              Roman Presidency and Christian Unity in our Time by Fr. Thomas Hopko

 
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 01:41:45 PM »

For starters:
Quote
Late in the first century, invoking the example of the martyrs, Peter and Paul, the Church of Rome wrote a long letter to the Church of Corinth, which had ejected its elders (1 Clem. 1, 44), and urged that unity and harmony (homonoia) be restored

The example, not the authority, of SS. Peter and Paul (the latter, always present in speaking of the Roman see in the first millenium, gets forgotten as the Vatican claims are magnified).
I never forget Paul. Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 03:00:12 PM »

I never forget Paul. Smiley

But perhaps you could admit that this might be an influence of your Orthodox interactions?
Logged
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 03:24:04 PM »

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 03:29:20 PM »

I never forget Paul. Smiley

But perhaps you could admit that this might be an influence of your Orthodox interactions?
No. I have always remembered St. Paul from the time that started reading the Fathers of the Church. This happened well before I had any experience of Eastern Orthodoxy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 04:28:34 PM »

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 04:30:56 PM »

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.
No!  Head Bishop!
No! First among equals!
No! Head Bishop!
No! First among equals!

"You're a towel!"
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 04:33:46 PM »

"You're a towel!"

English is an amazing language.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 04:39:39 PM »

"You're a towel!"

English is an amazing language.
It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 04:43:06 PM »

It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?

No, I haven't. That explains a lot Tongue
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 04:46:30 PM »

It is. You konw that this was a reference to South Park right?

No, I haven't. That explains a lot Tongue
There is a talking towel in South Park who at times tries to  hide this fact. When people accuse him of being a towel, he responds in his high pitched cartoon voice: "You're a towel!"
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 04:47:42 PM »

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.

'Head Bishop' - no, 'first among equals' - yes.

'Head bishop' is the term used by the 34th apostolic canon.  
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 05:27:39 PM »

I really like what Fr. Hopko says at the end... "With God all things are possible. It is with this conviction that we can dare to imagine a global unity of Christians under the leadership of the bishop whose church of Rome was originally the first to "preside in love" among all of Christ's churches on earth".

Well said.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 07:20:18 PM »

Prediction: This thread is going to get really fun really fast.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 09:21:54 PM »

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
But it speaks of no need of agreement of the patriachs with the bishop of Rome, as Pope St. Victor and many of his successors found out.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 10:01:18 PM »

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

I think that you have to admit that the pope had certain rights as the 'head bishop' or the 'first among equals'.  I think a lot of Orthodox want to interpret the early Church as if it were a democracy.  But in reality the bishop of Rome did have certain prerogatives, as the other patriarchs did.  It might not have been as it is now, but the head bishop wasn't simply an honorary position.  The councils specifically speak of certain rights that the patriarchs had.  The 34th apostolic canon speaks of the necessity of agreement with the head bishop (and vice versa). 
But it speaks of no need of agreement of the patriachs with the bishop of Rome, as Pope St. Victor and many of his successors found out.
Logged
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2010, 11:40:56 AM »

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Jimmy
Maronite
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Maronite Catholic
Posts: 203


« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2010, 02:05:45 PM »

Your post has nothing to do with the thread.  Whether you think Rome led the west into error in the second millenium or not is irrelevant to what I said.  The fact remains that the canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.  Your post doesn't even address the issue.  Telling me that the pope led the west into error just avoids the discussion.

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.

Logged
AWR
Greetings from the Southern Jersey Shore.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 240


Expelled from Paradise


WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 03:26:20 PM »

Your post has nothing to do with the thread.  Whether you think Rome led the west into error in the second millenium or not is irrelevant to what I said.  The fact remains that the canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.  Your post doesn't even address the issue.  Telling me that the pope led the west into error just avoids the discussion.

That might be the case, but it can't be ignored that certain bishops did have certain rights or prerogatives in the early church.  The bishop of Rome wasn't just a bishop with a little respect added on. He did play a certain role.

That he did - the bishops of Rome led the western half of Christianity into schism and eventual heresy.

But who knows, perhaps the current occupant of the See of Rome or one of his successors will lead a reformation of his church, purging the dross (starting with the grandiose notions of his own position within the Body of Christ) and return his wayward flock to the fold.
.
I think that is exactly what the Orthodox Churches believe is wrong with the role of the Pope of Rome.

Many believe that his Church demoted the role of the Holy Spirit, and promoted the role of the Pope.  It is the Holy Spirit that guides the Church not any particular person.   From the beginning, the Holy Spirit was worked in the entire Church to preserved the faith Christ taught the Apostles.  People, even large numbers of them, can ignore the Holy Spirit, but the Church as a whole, can’t. 

Quote
The canons of the early councils specifically speak of certain bishops having specific rights or prerogatives.
  And someday when the Church of Rome returns to the faith of those early councils, The Pope will have his place restored.
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,747



« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2010, 06:43:20 PM »

Prediction: This thread is going to get really fun really fast.

Yep...
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2010, 01:20:18 AM »

The EP's Russian Exarchate in Western Europe have been claiming, in legal battles, that the EP is the locum tenens of Rome, and therefore has jurisdiction over all of Rome's erstwhile territory. I'm wondering if the EP itself has ever made such an assertion.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.093 seconds with 53 queries.