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Author Topic: Akathist to the Holy Spirit  (Read 7756 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 08, 2010, 01:53:08 AM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 03:13:04 AM »

I've seen it in Romanian, but I'm not even sure it is the same, as there is an inflation of akathists outside of the greek-speaking Orthodox world.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 03:28:38 AM »

I have heard of "Akathist," but I don't know what this is. A Pro-Life friend of mine at Church told me that he has a special Akathist to pray at the abortion clinic. I hope to join him soon. So, forgive my ignorance and please enlighten me. Embarrassed

Thank you.

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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 04:01:37 AM »

I have heard of "Akathist," but I don't know what this is.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Akathist
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 04:51:30 AM »


Cool. Thanks!


Selam
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 02:28:46 PM »

Anybody?
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 03:52:10 PM »

Jordanville has published two books of akathists. I believe there is one to the Holy Spirit in the second volume.
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 03:52:48 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 04:03:30 PM »

You're kidding, right?
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 04:05:46 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 04:10:10 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 04:32:08 PM »

Jordanville has published two books of akathists. I believe there is one to the Holy Spirit in the second volume.

It is, and that book is very expensive.  That's why I was looking for a digital version of it.  I want to read it and if it seems appropriate share it with a Pentecostal friend of mine.
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 04:33:41 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?
To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
Yeah, i'm also baffled. Huh

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 05:38:26 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

You can say "the Holy Spirit of God" but you can not say "God the Holy Spirit" since the Spirit proceeds out of God the Father.  None of the patristic writings ever use "God the Holy Spirit" because it is impossible to say that in Greek. You can refer to God as "The God and Father" or "The Holy Trinity God" but you can not say "God the Holy Spirit" because it causes division of God. 
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 05:50:29 PM »

Another thing the Orthodox don't quite talk about is the "going to heaven" business . But I don't want to hijack the thread.
I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 05:57:25 PM »

Some hymns to the Holy Trinity (triadika, troitseny) from the coming series of readings of the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete:

O Trinity above all essence and worshipped as One God, take from me the heavy burden of sin, and in Your compassion, grant me tears of repentance.

O God of all, I sing of You as One yet Three in Person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

O God, Trinity yet One, save us from delusion, temptations and misfortune.

I confess You as one God in Trinity, a single essence unconfused in persons, co-enthroned and co-ruling, and I sing to You the great song thrice sung on high.

I am the Trinity, simple and undivided in essence yet divided in Persons. I am also the Unity united in nature, says God, the Father, the Son, and the divine Spirit.

Simple and undivided, One in essence and nature, Light and Lights, One Holy and three Holies, God is praised as Trinity. So sing praises to Him, O my soul, and glorify the Life and Lives, the God of all.

We glorify the Father, we exalt the Son, and we worship the Holy Spirit, the indivisible Trinity who exists as One, the Light and Lights, the Life and Lives who grants light and life to the ends of the world.

If you were to search through other canons for more such hymns, you would find many similar examples expressing the complete equality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Holy Trinity. There is no question at all that the Holy Spirit is nothing less than God. To say that we can't use the term "God the Holy Spirit" would mean the term "God the Son" is also wrong, which is clearly not the case.
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 06:17:58 PM »

Carju Nebesnyj - Hymn to the Holy Spirit - Rusyn tone 6 - O Heavenly king, the comforter, spirit of truth, everywhere present and filling all things, treasury of blessings and giver of life, come and abide in us, cleanse us from all stain, and save our souls, O gracious one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4rjhRVx2rY
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 07:17:31 PM »

I recently read in a list of akathists that one was written to God the Holy Spirit.  Can anyone provide a link to it or post an English translation?

To refer to "God the Holy Spirit" is very anti-Orthodox and anti-patristic as a statement. This type of language is very modern and not faithful.
HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

You can say "the Holy Spirit of God" but you can not say "God the Holy Spirit" since the Spirit proceeds out of God the Father.  None of the patristic writings ever use "God the Holy Spirit" because it is impossible to say that in Greek. You can refer to God as "The God and Father" or "The Holy Trinity God" but you can not say "God the Holy Spirit" because it causes division of God. 
The Holy Spirit is God; thus, "God the Holy Spirit" is perfectly accurate. If you deny this you are not really Trinitarian.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 07:50:23 PM »

If you were to search through other canons for more such hymns, you would find many similar examples expressing the complete equality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Holy Trinity. There is no question at all that the Holy Spirit is nothing less than God. To say that we can't use the term "God the Holy Spirit" would mean the term "God the Son" is also wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Yes the 3 of the trinity are equal in essence and undivided but you can't say that the Son is the Father or the Holy Spirit is the Son, they have their roles and thus we have unique ways of talking about them. You are correct in saying that the term "God the Son" is also wrong. Look over the ancient hymns and no place do you see these terms "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" being used. It is smart for us to use the example of the time tested hymnography and writings of the saints as our vocabulary when talking about these lofty issues. The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought. That is why it is okay in Papist understanding, since he is Latin, and it not okay in the strict Orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

We affirm that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can be God without the Father. It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

The whole point of why I brought this up is that many of the more modern hymnography is not always the most theologically sound.   
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 08:10:06 PM »

If you were to search through other canons for more such hymns, you would find many similar examples expressing the complete equality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Holy Trinity. There is no question at all that the Holy Spirit is nothing less than God. To say that we can't use the term "God the Holy Spirit" would mean the term "God the Son" is also wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Yes the 3 of the trinity are equal in essence and undivided but you can't say that the Son is the Father or the Holy Spirit is the Son, they have their roles and thus we have unique ways of talking about them. You are correct in saying that the term "God the Son" is also wrong. Look over the ancient hymns and no place do you see these terms "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" being used. It is smart for us to use the example of the time tested hymnography and writings of the saints as our vocabulary when talking about these lofty issues. The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought. That is why it is okay in Papist understanding, since he is Latin, and it not okay in the strict Orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

We affirm that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can be God without the Father. It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

The whole point of why I brought this up is that many of the more modern hymnography is not always the most theologically sound.   
Seems like you are in danger of Denying the Divinity of the second and thrid Persons of the Blessed Trinity.
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2010, 10:59:00 PM »

I think I understand what you are saying.  So how is it appropriate to refer to only God the Father as God, as the other hypostases unite to form the fullness of the divinity?  Wouldn't that, using you line of logic, seem to imply a denial of the coeternality of the Son and Holy Spirit?  Is God really God without the Son and Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »

Is it o.k. to say "Christ our God"?
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 02:11:15 AM »

Is it o.k. to say "Christ our God"?

It's in Chrysostom's liturgy.
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 02:31:52 AM »

Anyway, can somebody provide this akathist in English?  I found it in Finnish, but that doesn't help me too much.
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 03:53:19 AM »

If you were to search through other canons for more such hymns, you would find many similar examples expressing the complete equality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Holy Trinity. There is no question at all that the Holy Spirit is nothing less than God. To say that we can't use the term "God the Holy Spirit" would mean the term "God the Son" is also wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Yes the 3 of the trinity are equal in essence and undivided but you can't say that the Son is the Father or the Holy Spirit is the Son, they have their roles and thus we have unique ways of talking about them. You are correct in saying that the term "God the Son" is also wrong. Look over the ancient hymns and no place do you see these terms "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" being used. It is smart for us to use the example of the time tested hymnography and writings of the saints as our vocabulary when talking about these lofty issues. The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought. That is why it is okay in Papist understanding, since he is Latin, and it not okay in the strict Orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

We affirm that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can be God without the Father. It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

The whole point of why I brought this up is that many of the more modern hymnography is not always the most theologically sound.   

1. I did not say that the term "God the Son" is wrong. Please read my post carefully.

2.
Quote
The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought.

This is complete nonsense. Even off the top of my head, I can recall, for example, hymns to the Mother of God which greatly predate the Great Schism (let alone a mere 200 years ago)which refer to Christ in terms such as "intercede before your Son and God", or, where she is "speaking" to Christ through her hymnography, "O my Son and God". It would not be difficult for me to provide plenty of similar examples. Such examples are certainly not exclusive to the Russian church. A significant proportion of hymnography used by all Orthodox churches is of Greek origin.

More examples:

When she saw You, O Christ, the Creator and God of all, hanging on the Cross, she who bore You without seed, cried bitterly: My Son, where has the beauty of Your form departed? I cannot bear to see You unjustly crucified; hasten then, arise, that I too may see Your resurrection from the dead on the third day. (Vespers of Great Friday)

O Word, we sing Your praises, as the Lord and God of all, with the Father and Your most Holy Spirit, and we glorify Your divine burial. (Lamentations, Matins of Holy Saturday)

Now we call you blessed, All-Pure Mother of God, and in faith we hold in honour and venerate the three day entombment of your Son our God. (Lamentations, Theotokion)

Father, Son and Spirit, O Trinity, my One God, have mercy on the whole world. (Lamentations, triadikon)

You were torn, but not torn away, O Word, from the flesh You had taken. For though Your temple was destroyed at the moment of the passion, You were still one person in Your Godhead and Your flesh; for in both You are one Son, Word of God, God and man. (Matins of Great Friday, Ode 6 of the Canon)

‘At Your strange birth, my Son without beginning, beyond nature I escaped the pangs and was made blessed; but now, my God, as I see You dead, I am pierced terribly by the sword of sorrow; but arise, that I may be magnified.’ (Ode 9, same canon)

These are selections from just two services. It would not be difficult to find many more examples in the liturgical texts of many other feasts, texts which greatly pre-date the schism, texts which the whole Church still uses to this day.
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2010, 05:33:17 AM »

Anyway, can somebody provide this akathist in English?  I found it in Finnish, but that doesn't help me too much.

I know I searched for it some time ago, but didn't find it, except for the Jordanville book.
Unless you want it in Romanian... Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 05:33:45 AM »

It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

It's my understanding that the insistence on precision is exactly what got Nestorius into trouble with the Church.
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 08:34:29 AM »

It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

It's my understanding that the insistence on precision is exactly what got Nestorius into trouble with the Church.

On the other hand, the most prominent argument at the most famous council in Church history was over a single letter.  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 10:21:24 AM »

If you were to search through other canons for more such hymns, you would find many similar examples expressing the complete equality of the Spirit with the other persons of the Holy Trinity. There is no question at all that the Holy Spirit is nothing less than God. To say that we can't use the term "God the Holy Spirit" would mean the term "God the Son" is also wrong, which is clearly not the case.

Yes the 3 of the trinity are equal in essence and undivided but you can't say that the Son is the Father or the Holy Spirit is the Son, they have their roles and thus we have unique ways of talking about them. You are correct in saying that the term "God the Son" is also wrong. Look over the ancient hymns and no place do you see these terms "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" being used. It is smart for us to use the example of the time tested hymnography and writings of the saints as our vocabulary when talking about these lofty issues. The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought. That is why it is okay in Papist understanding, since he is Latin, and it not okay in the strict Orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

We affirm that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit but neither the Son or the Holy Spirit can be God without the Father. It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

The whole point of why I brought this up is that many of the more modern hymnography is not always the most theologically sound.   

1. I did not say that the term "God the Son" is wrong. Please read my post carefully.

2.
Quote
The question "God the..." only found its way into the vocabulary of the Church through the Russian church of the last 200 years via western theological thought.

This is complete nonsense. Even off the top of my head, I can recall, for example, hymns to the Mother of God which greatly predate the Great Schism (let alone a mere 200 years ago)which refer to Christ in terms such as "intercede before your Son and God", or, where she is "speaking" to Christ through her hymnography, "O my Son and God". It would not be difficult for me to provide plenty of similar examples. Such examples are certainly not exclusive to the Russian church. A significant proportion of hymnography used by all Orthodox churches is of Greek origin.

More examples:

When she saw You, O Christ, the Creator and God of all, hanging on the Cross, she who bore You without seed, cried bitterly: My Son, where has the beauty of Your form departed? I cannot bear to see You unjustly crucified; hasten then, arise, that I too may see Your resurrection from the dead on the third day. (Vespers of Great Friday)

O Word, we sing Your praises, as the Lord and God of all, with the Father and Your most Holy Spirit, and we glorify Your divine burial. (Lamentations, Matins of Holy Saturday)

Now we call you blessed, All-Pure Mother of God, and in faith we hold in honour and venerate the three day entombment of your Son our God. (Lamentations, Theotokion)

Father, Son and Spirit, O Trinity, my One God, have mercy on the whole world. (Lamentations, triadikon)

You were torn, but not torn away, O Word, from the flesh You had taken. For though Your temple was destroyed at the moment of the passion, You were still one person in Your Godhead and Your flesh; for in both You are one Son, Word of God, God and man. (Matins of Great Friday, Ode 6 of the Canon)

‘At Your strange birth, my Son without beginning, beyond nature I escaped the pangs and was made blessed; but now, my God, as I see You dead, I am pierced terribly by the sword of sorrow; but arise, that I may be magnified.’ (Ode 9, same canon)

These are selections from just two services. It would not be difficult to find many more examples in the liturgical texts of many other feasts, texts which greatly pre-date the schism, texts which the whole Church still uses to this day.

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the termnology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 01:10:44 PM »

Anyway, can somebody provide this akathist in English?  I found it in Finnish, but that doesn't help me too much.

I know I searched for it some time ago, but didn't find it, except for the Jordanville book.
Unless you want it in Romanian... Smiley

I could not find it, so I tried Google Translate ( http://translate.google.com ) on the first two Kontakions, but it did not work out to good. 

I hope you find it, I would also like to see it is English.

Quote
1. Kontakion

Come, believers, praise shedding of the Holy Spirit, because He came down from the Father and the Apostles on the knowledge of God revive the world's baptism. When we clean riennämme faith to Him,
He makes our ears pleasing in God's grace, renewal of heaven and the glory. He sanctifies and educate all those who cry out:

    * Comforter, the Holy Spirit, come and live with us!

1. Ikos

Emitting an angel choirs of heaven in glory without ceasing veisaavat praise of the Holy Spirit, for He is the source of life and the moral light. With angels we praise Thee, the Most Merciful and promoted understanding of border life, and humbly we ask blissful defense:

    * Come to us, a true spiritual joy and light!
    * Come yllemme, cool clouds and the undescribable beauty!
    * Come and receive praise as fragrant incense!
    * Come and let our taste the joy of shedding!
    * Come and see as our rich armolahjoillasi!
    * Come, Thou everlasting, laskeutumaton sun, and make us your home!
    * Comforter, the Holy Spirit, come and live with us!

2. Kontakion

The Holy Spirit descended on the apostles in the form of language became a member, the joy and the brightness of the burst väkevässä tuulispäässä. His heavenly tulensa fish filled by men, and they look forward to all the people called the church of Christ. They gladly took risks on land and at sea and they are scared of death at all. Over all the echoes of their songs of praise:

    * Hallelujah!

2. Ikos

Oh, God, Holy Spirit, the Apostles on Mount Zion You spilled onto the baptism of fire and refreshing dish. Veisaamme to you, we thank and praise Thee we pray:

    * Come to us, the church and the patron of St!
    * Come and let uskovillesi one heart and one mind!
    * Come and make palavaksi cold and barren praise!
    * Come on and break down into the darkness of wickedness on the earth!
    * Come and lead the way, all the commandments of God!
    * Come and save us from you the truth!
    * Oh, God, Wisdom, come and save us from those stages, which you know best!
    * Comforter, the Holy Spirit, come and live with us!
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2010, 01:52:37 PM »

Yeah, that didn't work out too well!  Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2010, 01:54:22 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2010, 02:23:09 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?

Yes the Holy Spirit is fully God, it is its essence and I don't think there is any problem with your above statement. It is a position of attribute. In your above statement you are describing the Holy Spirit as God but in "God the Holy Spirit," God is being described as Holy Spirit, which is incomplete and in turn makes no sense.
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2010, 03:00:53 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?

Yes the Holy Spirit is fully God, it is its essence and I don't think there is any problem with your above statement. It is a position of attribute. In your above statement you are describing the Holy Spirit as God but in "God the Holy Spirit," God is being described as Holy Spirit, which is incomplete and in turn makes no sense.
I believe that it is wrong to describe the Trinity as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Mostly because it is misleading.  Not only could it imply three gods, it is not the way our faith was handed down to us. 

We believe in One God Father Almighty … and in One Lord Jesus Christ the only-begotten Son of God …   and in the Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets …

Even what was handed down to us is confusing.  We do believe in God as Trinity, we believe that what the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit also are.  But words and concepts about God must yield to the mystical vision of the actual Divine Reality which they express. God may somehow be grasped by us as He has chosen to reveal Himself to us. But the real meaning of His Triune existence remains inconceivable and inexpressible to our minds.

So even though we all know that saying "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" is not confessing three gods, we should stick to the biblical wording that was used by the fathers.   History has shown us that trying to clarify the definition of our God can lead folks astray.  To me, we can't explain, simplify, or make more clear, anything that we can't fully understand. We should stick to the language of the Church.

This is why I like reading the text of the Church's services, hymns, and prays. It is said the the Church prays what it believes, and believes what it prays.
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2010, 05:22:36 PM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)

...The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

 

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord.....

http://www.orthodox.net/journal/2009-11-11_athanasian-creed+russian-orthodox-psalter+mystery.html
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2010, 06:15:58 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?

Yes the Holy Spirit is fully God, it is its essence and I don't think there is any problem with your above statement. It is a position of attribute. In your above statement you are describing the Holy Spirit as God but in "God the Holy Spirit," God is being described as Holy Spirit, which is incomplete and in turn makes no sense.

Both the traditional western "Litania Sanctorum," which probably dates to before the schism, and the Anglican "Great Litany," both used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians, contain a petition to "God the Holy Spirit."
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2010, 07:10:07 PM »

So God is the Father but God is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit?  I remain confused.  Huh Huh Huh

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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2010, 07:18:05 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?

Yes the Holy Spirit is fully God, it is its essence and I don't think there is any problem with your above statement. It is a position of attribute. In your above statement you are describing the Holy Spirit as God but in "God the Holy Spirit," God is being described as Holy Spirit, which is incomplete and in turn makes no sense.

Both the traditional western "Litania Sanctorum," which probably dates to before the schism, and the Anglican "Great Litany," both used by Western Rite Orthodox Christians, contain a petition to "God the Holy Spirit."

It is this language that makes a lot of people uncomfortable with the Western Rite.
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2010, 07:19:36 PM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2010, 08:25:30 PM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

Been reading Behr, I take it?  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2010, 08:43:08 PM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

Been reading Behr, I take it?  Smiley

More then just reading him. My grandmother would drill this concept into me as a child, Fr. John just explained why she was so adamant about it.
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2010, 09:16:51 PM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

Been reading Behr, I take it?  Smiley

More then just reading him. My grandmother would drill this concept into me as a child, Fr. John just explained why she was so adamant about it.

There was a youtube video of a lecture Fr. Behr did that explained this perfectly.  It's no longer on youtube, though.   Sad
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2010, 10:34:36 PM »

                                            Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

Forgive my feeble mind, arimethea, but I fail to distingush the doctrinal or semantic difference between the terms "God the Son", "the Son is God" and "my Son and God", particularly in the light of the Orthodox liturgical deposit. A clear explanation would be appreciated.                                                                                                                                                                              
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2010, 10:41:52 PM »

Perhaps Arimethea is basing this on the Greek where O Theos is applied only to the Father while Theos is applied to Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2010, 11:01:34 PM »

Perhaps Arimethea is basing this on the Greek where O Theos is applied only to the Father while Theos is applied to Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

If he is, it is a linguistic error. There are innumerable liturgical examples of Christos o Theos (or, its grammatical declensions, such as Christo to Theo) [literally Christ the God, or in the second example, to Christ the God] in Greek liturgical texts. Obviously, Greeks have had no problem with such usage for close to 2000 years. Slavic usage, being largely derived from the Greek, has similar liturgical forms, without controversy.
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« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2010, 12:24:31 AM »

                                             Athanasian Creed  (part of it)


So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
.

Again this is different then saying God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

Been reading Behr, I take it?  Smiley

More then just reading him. My grandmother would drill this concept into me as a child, Fr. John just explained why she was so adamant about it.

There was a youtube video of a lecture Fr. Behr did that explained this perfectly.  It's no longer on youtube, though.   Sad

Is this the one?  http://www.myocn.net/index.php/20080612873/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy/Special-Moments-in-Orthodoxy-Trinitarian-Theology.html

I listened to this talk by Fr John first on YouTube, and then it was removed (presumably for copyright reasons - the YouTube version deleted the "Special Moments in Orthodoxy" bumper).  So I was delighted to find this talk archived on this podcast.
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« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2010, 12:53:29 AM »

I think that's it.  He's very good.
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« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2010, 04:13:10 PM »

I think that's it.  He's very good.

If you're interested, he's doing a week-long academic session this summer at St Vlad's.  It's on the early church fathers up to Nicaea, so it'll relate to the issues about the Trinity brought up in this discussion.  http://www.svots.edu/2010-0613-summer-academic-program-upcoming/
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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2010, 06:20:41 PM »

It seems to me that to say that we can say "God the Father" but can't say "God the Holy Spirit" is bordering on, if not is, Monarchianism.  I think we have to be very careful in our reaction to the erroneous teaching of the filioque that we don't go to the opposite extreme.  Ya know, that who Arius-Nestorius problem.
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2010, 01:08:13 AM »

It seems to me that to say that we can say "God the Father" but can't say "God the Holy Spirit" is bordering on, if not is, Monarchianism.  I think we have to be very careful in our reaction to the erroneous teaching of the filioque that we don't go to the opposite extreme.  Ya know, that who Arius-Nestorius problem.

It's not Monarchianism.  If you listen to Fr Behr's lecture, he points out that the Nicene Creed itself speaks of "one God, the Father", and "one Lord, Jesus Christ", and "the Holy Spirit".  It does not say "God the Father", "God the Son", "God the Holy Spirit".
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2010, 12:12:59 PM »

I understand that.  But my problem is with absolutizing this into saying that we cannot make statements that naturally flow from all our theological statements.  I still think that the modern insistence of Orthodox theologians on the Monarchy of God the Father is a reaction to the filioque that can be taken too far, such as saying that it is wrong to say God the Holy Spirit.  Especially as I've noticed that folks in this thread who defend this position will say God the Son.  Doesn't this once again reduce the Holy Spirit to a subordinate position, which is precisely St. Photios' objection to the filioque?  But even if we say that "God the..." can only be applied to the Father, I think we still run afoul of St. Photios.  The thing that unites the Holy Trinity is that each Person is "God the..."
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2010, 04:42:34 AM »

http://www.sfintiiarhangheli.ro/acatistul-sfantului-duh
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« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2010, 09:32:36 AM »

Can you please explain what this is?
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« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 10:19:58 AM »

It's the Akathist to The Holy Spirit in Romanian.
It's interesting that it is not available online in English. I searched for it a while ago. It may be in the second volume of a book of akathists published by Jordanville.

There was a thread about it a while back:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=25826.0;all
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« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2010, 02:20:51 PM »

If we restrict usage of "God," addressed as a Person, to the Father, I can see how there would be a problem referring to God the anything. When we pray to the Son or the Holy Spirit, we use more words than just "God," as far as I can remember. But, then again, St. Gregory the Theologian says, "When I say God, I mean Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I can see how modalists can use God the..., but I still don't see how the very use thereof implies modalism. Heresy is lodged not just or only in the word, but in the understanding and meaning.

Anyway, for Slavs, I don't see how this has any meaning since Slavic languages, at least Russian and Ukrainian, (and Georgian, for that matter as well, though it's not Slavic) do not employ articles.
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« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2010, 03:33:02 PM »

It's the Akathist to The Holy Spirit in Romanian.
It's interesting that it is not available online in English. I searched for it a while ago. It may be in the second volume of a book of akathists published by Jordanville.

There was a thread about it a while back:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=25826.0;all

If you are using Google Chrome as a browser, it will translate the page into passable English.
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« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2010, 04:46:24 PM »

Opera user here Smiley
You also can use Google language tools which are not browser dependent. But my native language is Romanian, so it's not a problem. Maybe someday I'll try to translate it.
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« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2010, 09:43:20 PM »

I might be attributing this story to the wrong saint, but I'm 90% sure I'm correct....

A spiritual child of Optina Pustyn came to the monastery with a beautiful, quite costly binding of the Akathist to the Holy Spirit.  When St. Moses of Optina was consulted about it, he took it and threw it immediately into the fire and stated that an Akathist to the Holy Spirit was unorthodox and a result of Latin influence.  Dunno.
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« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2010, 10:42:41 PM »

It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

It's my understanding that the insistence on precision is exactly what got Nestorius into trouble with the Church.

How is that?
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« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2010, 10:43:34 PM »

It may seem like splitting hairs but this is how heresy develops, when we are not precises in our language.

It's my understanding that the insistence on precision is exactly what got Nestorius into trouble with the Church.

On the other hand, the most prominent argument at the most famous council in Church history was over a single letter.  Wink

Didn't the homoousios vs. homoiousios issue arise after Nicaea?  Huh
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« Reply #60 on: October 20, 2010, 10:45:07 PM »

Your examples keep proving my point. None of them use the terminology "GOD THE...". Formula such as "Son and God", "Christ our true God" "My God" are all acceptable. When we use "God the..." we are creating separate gods. It is a matter of subject and modifier. I am sorry I am not being clear and explaining this concept well.

So, in your estimation, is the Holy Spirit not fully God?  Would it be appropriate to refer to Him as "O Holy Spirit, my Comforter and God"?

Yes the Holy Spirit is fully God, it is its essence and I don't think there is any problem with your above statement. It is a position of attribute. In your above statement you are describing the Holy Spirit as God but in "God the Holy Spirit," God is being described as Holy Spirit, which is incomplete and in turn makes no sense.

Would it be also erroneous to say "God the Father"?
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« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2010, 08:25:04 AM »

I might be attributing this story to the wrong saint, but I'm 90% sure I'm correct....

A spiritual child of Optina Pustyn came to the monastery with a beautiful, quite costly binding of the Akathist to the Holy Spirit.  When St. Moses of Optina was consulted about it, he took it and threw it immediately into the fire and stated that an Akathist to the Holy Spirit was unorthodox and a result of Latin influence.  Dunno.

I don't think that was an akathist to the Holy Spirit, but one to the Father. There is a legit akathist to the Holy Spirit, as well as many, many canons and prayers for Him in the services of the Church.
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Tags: akathist Holy Spirit Trinity 
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