Author Topic: A question for protestants...  (Read 32218 times)

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Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #225 on: March 08, 2010, 08:58:25 PM »
^ Wow. Your assumptions are much, much longer than the factual statement. Wonder what that means....

Means that I have seen every single one of those things before in this type of restorationist fundamentalism.
Oh? What type of restorationist fundamentalism is this?

What? did I make a false assumption on what is preached in your average Oneness pentecostal church? That is what they believe in, I have seen it.


At the same time gossip is a bad thing so I apologize for bringing this up. Even if it is true.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 09:12:51 PM by Rafa999 »
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #226 on: March 08, 2010, 09:24:51 PM »
^ Wow. Your assumptions are much, much longer than the factual statement. Wonder what that means....

Means that I have seen every single one of those things before in this type of restorationist fundamentalism.
Oh? What type of restorationist fundamentalism is this?

What? did I make a false assumption on what is preached in your average Oneness pentecostal church? That is what they believe in, I have seen it.
You did make a false assumption: that we're speaking of a Oneness Pentecostal church. Katherineofdixie specifically stated that it was a Presbyterian church that wrote this sign.

Quote
At the same time gossip is a bad thing so I apologize for bringing this up. Even if it is true.
The point is that you don't know it's true. The only information you have is that a Presbyterian church invited people to come see worship like the early Church worshiped. Everything else is speculation.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #227 on: March 08, 2010, 09:38:22 PM »
^ Wow. Your assumptions are much, much longer than the factual statement. Wonder what that means....

Means that I have seen every single one of those things before in this type of restorationist fundamentalism.
Oh? What type of restorationist fundamentalism is this?

What? did I make a false assumption on what is preached in your average Oneness pentecostal church? That is what they believe in, I have seen it.
You did make a false assumption: that we're speaking of a Oneness Pentecostal church. Katherineofdixie specifically stated that it was a Presbyterian church that wrote this sign.

Quote
At the same time gossip is a bad thing so I apologize for bringing this up. Even if it is true.
The point is that you don't know it's true. The only information you have is that a Presbyterian church invited people to come see worship like the early Church worshiped. Everything else is speculation.

It is not speculation: Presbyterians donot have Apostolic succesion which violates Paul's instructions to Timothy. Therefore they donot worship in the manner of the early Church where the laying on of hands was of extreme importance in deciding who was telling the truth ("Hold on to the tradition delivered" I Thessalonians). Therefore they lie if they say their practice is that of the early church where Bishops with their last dying breath would remind their flocks not to neglect this command. They are not telling the truth.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 09:41:24 PM by Rafa999 »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #228 on: March 08, 2010, 11:19:19 PM »
It is not speculation: Presbyterians do not have Apostolic succession which violates Paul's instructions to Timothy. Therefore they do not worship in the manner of the early Church where the laying on of hands was of extreme importance in deciding who was telling the truth ("Hold on to the tradition delivered" I Thessalonians). Therefore they lie if they say their practice is that of the early church where Bishops with their last dying breath would remind their flocks not to neglect this command. They are not telling the truth.

You're of course correct on many fronts, but honestly liturgical Presbyterian worship is still very close to the early church in the West in many regards.  Their theology, despite being severely deficient in plenty of areas, still also retains many elements that we treasure.  They do not traditionally have the aversion to ritual that the later Baptist "fundamentalist" (whatever that means) groups do.  They retain covenant theology for one thing, so they still practice paedobaptism.  They also hold a somewhat distorted, but still an essentially sacramental view of baptism and the "Lord's Supper."

Anyway, they didn't throw out everything, and the basic structure of the traditional liturgical worship in many ways accurately reflects the forms of Western Christian piety dating back to antiquity.  I only say all of this to stop people from making fun of their marquee, because it's true in many ways.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 11:20:54 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #229 on: March 08, 2010, 11:33:28 PM »
It is not speculation: Presbyterians do not have Apostolic succession which violates Paul's instructions to Timothy. Therefore they do not worship in the manner of the early Church where the laying on of hands was of extreme importance in deciding who was telling the truth ("Hold on to the tradition delivered" I Thessalonians). Therefore they lie if they say their practice is that of the early church where Bishops with their last dying breath would remind their flocks not to neglect this command. They are not telling the truth.

You're of course correct on many fronts, but honestly liturgical Presbyterian worship is still very close to the early church in the West in many regards.  Their theology, despite being severely deficient in plenty of areas, still also retains many elements that we treasure.  They do not traditionally have the aversion to ritual that the later Baptist "fundamentalist" (whatever that means) groups do.  They retain covenant theology for one thing, so they still practice paedobaptism.  They also hold a somewhat distorted, but still an essentially sacramental view of baptism and the "Lord's Supper."

Anyway, they didn't throw out everything, and the basic structure of the traditional liturgical worship in many ways accurately reflects the forms of Western Christian piety dating back to antiquity.  I only say all of this to stop people from making fun of their marquee, because it's true in many ways.

OK, I concede that Presbyterians are in general faithful to many practices of the early church. Apologies to comparing them to oneness pentecostals and other groups who didn't retain those practices in any way.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 11:33:50 PM by Rafa999 »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #230 on: March 09, 2010, 10:40:22 AM »
A local Presbyterian church advertised a new service "Come and experience the worship of the early church!"

I had to be forcibly restrained!

;D

Many Presbyterian churches are still liturgical, and the base of that structure is the traditional Western rite from Rome.  There are some subtractions to be sure, but overall the structure remains, and it is ancient and venerable.

Having been a lifelong Lutheran (up until a course correction to Orthodoxy) and something of a liturgical nerd, I am actually aware that many if not most Episcopalian, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches still use liturgical forms of worship. Also I have been to several Presbyterian services (one of my bestest friends is a Presbyterian minister).
I'm sorry that I was not more clear. This was not their usual Sunday morning service but an optional "emergent-type" service so that people could "experience worship the way the early Church worshipped" (from an ad).
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #231 on: March 09, 2010, 01:21:04 PM »
A local Presbyterian church advertised a new service "Come and experience the worship of the early church!"

I had to be forcibly restrained!

;D

Many Presbyterian churches are still liturgical, and the base of that structure is the traditional Western rite from Rome.  There are some subtractions to be sure, but overall the structure remains, and it is ancient and venerable.

Having been a lifelong Lutheran (up until a course correction to Orthodoxy) and something of a liturgical nerd, I am actually aware that many if not most Episcopalian, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches still use liturgical forms of worship. Also I have been to several Presbyterian services (one of my bestest friends is a Presbyterian minister).
I'm sorry that I was not more clear. This was not their usual Sunday morning service but an optional "emergent-type" service so that people could "experience worship the way the early Church worshipped" (from an ad).


I have been to exactly ONE Church service outside of the Orthodox Church so I am just giving my impression. It was a Lutheran Church with a Senior Pastor (Openly Gay fellow) and a Female Junior Priest.

Communion consisted of EVERYONE no matter your affiliation or religion for that matter, going up to partake. I was the lone hold out sitting in my seat like a grumpy old guy.

They stood in a circle around the Priest as he went around chatting up each person and broke off a piece of Pita Bread which he handed to them. The Woman Priest then followed up with the Chalice. A few people dipped the Pita and few drank from it ( I think). They had set up an "Alter Table" in the middle of the circle which they then folded up and put away after everyone was done.

Far be it from me to stand in judgement, but simply compared to what I am used to in the Orthodox Church, I was rather stunned and I am still mumbling to myself about it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:23:19 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #232 on: March 09, 2010, 01:35:34 PM »
Well, based on that formula, one could say that all religious communities follow a 'liturgy,' in that all of them follow some type of structure.  After all, the essence of 'liturgical worship' is thus defined in the Encyclopaedia Brittanica (1911):

LITURGY (Low Lat. liturgic; Gr. X€Ztos, public, and gpyov, work; XEcrovpyos, a public servant), in the technical language of the Christian Church, the order for the celebration and administration of the Eucharist. In Eastern Christendom the Greek word Xetrovpyia is used in this sense exclusively. But in English speaking countries the word " liturgy " has come to be used in a more popular sense to denote any or all of the various services of the Church, whether contained in separate volumes or bound up together in the form of a Book of Common Prayer. In this article the liturgy is treated in the former and stricter sense. (For the ancient Athenian Xetrovpyiat, as forms of taxation, see Finance.) In order to understand terms and references it will be convenient to give the tabular form the chief component parts of a liturgy, selecting the Liturgy of Rome as characteristic of Western, and that of Constantinople as characteristic of Eastern, Christendom; at the same time appending an explanation of some of the technical words which must be employed in enumerating those parts.

By this definition, even a 'holy-roller' service can be considered 'liturgical' in that it has a specific order established prior to the service, even if it ends with utter chaos so long as it is intended to do so and someone is in charge of managing the whole thing (a.k.a. an officiant).  The only difference it that the 'sacrament' in such an event is usually an ecstatic state rather that the chnage of bread and wine into Body and Blood.

However, I will be obstinant and insist that wearing my father's helmet does not make me a fireman, no matter how truly authentic the helmet is.  Just because someone has picked up this or that and added it to whatever else one is doing does not make the rest 'authentic' as well.  We Orthodox see this all the time when some group uses vestments and service books purchased off the internet as proof that they are 'authentic.'

There is something more to worship than the acquisition of bits of 'historical elements,' because the elements themselves have no meaning without their context.  This is the inherent problem of the 'reconstructionists' in the Orthodox Church, who decided on their own to leap back through the centuries over what we do now.  It has not worked, because this stand ignored the work of the Holy Spirit that got us to where we are now for whatever reason.

The liturgical Tradition of the Church is not an invention, nor is it something tampered with on a whim.  It is something passed down through the ages and only changes under the guidance of the common mind of the Synods inspired by the Holy Spirit, which is beyond reach of both parishes and even 'demoninations.'  Liturgy is inherently mystical in that there is more to it than just a hodge-podge of texts and books.  It is the Spirit worshipping and glorifying the Father and Son through us, so that we might do what we cannot do on our own.  Worshipping 'in Spirit and in Truth' is not within our fallen-nature abilities.  To use those same abilities to assemble a 'service' makes the service worthless when compared to the true liturgical services of the Church.

The tragedy is that we continue to praise people (i.e. "Nice helment, Giryus!  I didn't know you were a firefighter!") for doing what is, in fact, counterproductive to their intended goal.  If they seek to worship God, then they need to enter into the ancient Tradition of that worship rather than trying to make it up on their own.  Some of those who realize the fruitlessness of such pursuits eventually find their way to the Orthodox Church, where they find the 'real thing' as opposed to 'make-it-up-as-you-go-along.'

I recall members of one group that ended up in the Church having their 'service books' supposedly assembled to resemble 'ancient worship.'  What was funny was that the book was full of stickers, covering up superceded versions with newer, yet 'more ancient,' versions of service elements.  Eventually, they became so confused, it was much easier to coax then in the door and give them the real thing.

My hope is that, perhaps, we can some day appeal to those looking for the Ancient Tradition and coax them to the Father's Table so they can have the real thing they are looking for.

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Offline Seraphim98

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #233 on: March 09, 2010, 02:27:36 PM »
It is this element of "fruitless" but serious play that gives me a little hope for the emergence movement.  Just like the Charismatic movement which in its youth asked a lot of interesting and often correct questions, it had neither the roots nor the power to make even right/or rightish answers to those questions effective.  What it did do though was cause them to think about enough of the right sorts of things so that when/if they got a good steady look at the genuine they would recognize it and be prepared to act on their conscience in that moment.  

That's basically what happened to me as a 20+ year charismatic.  It made me aware that God was active and present in our lives, not distant or abstract. It made me aware that what the Apostles knew, lived and taught was not supposed to vanish away. It taught me that an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit was both desirable and possible, and that actual holiness of some substance was also possible.  It could never seem to make good in any consistent way on those things...but it got me thinking, and when I bumped into Orthodoxy and the lives of her saints, I recognized the genuine article and figured out why even though so many of the promises we saw were true, our access to them in fullness was not possible as we were.  

So I am not ashamed to entertain similar hopes for those in the emergent church movement who learn to ask some of the right questions in their serious religious play, questions that in time might enable them to recognize the power and beauty of the genuine when they have opportunity to gaze upon it undestracted.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 02:30:36 PM by Seraphim98 »

Offline GreekChef

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #234 on: March 12, 2010, 01:16:14 PM »
Apologies if I'm being a pest, but still waiting on this one... I'm really eager to hear (*read*) your response, David!

Dear Presvytera,

I think I have annoyed poor david into silence, as he has not directly responded to my inquiries, either.



I don't think it's just you, Father.  I think, really, we all backed him into a corner that he can't get out of.  I sure do hope he isn't gone for good, though.  That would be a shame.

I didn't respond to this immediately (forgive me, Father) because I didn't want to believe it was true.  Call me naive, but I wanted to believe that this time I had finally been clear and to the point with my questions, specific enough that they would be easier to answer and that David would, indeed, just this once, give a real, honest answer.  I know we overwhelmed him with posts, but I guess I thought he would eventually come back around to mine and stop with the cognitive dissonance.  I guess not...  :'(

Ah well.  A blessed rest of the Lenten journey to you, Father!
Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #235 on: March 12, 2010, 03:48:15 PM »
One more enemy has been successfully defeated!  Congratulations, my One True Church brothers and sisters!

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #236 on: March 12, 2010, 03:53:37 PM »
One more enemy has been successfully defeated!  Congratulations, my One True Church brothers and sisters!

Talk about cognitive dissonance...
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Offline Papist

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #237 on: March 12, 2010, 03:54:26 PM »
Which enemy? I thought David was a friend of all here, whether Orthodox or not. If anything, he should be in everyone's prayers out of love. I certainly do NOT consider myself your enemy simply because I am not Eastern Orthodox.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:55:13 PM by Papist »
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Rosehip

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #238 on: March 12, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »
I too fail to see how David could possibly be our enemy (I think, Alveus, you were being ironic...). To me he appears to be a sincere Christian man and we have no right to think ourselves better than him. In fact, he has always impressed me by his love and kindness to all.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:58:29 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #239 on: March 12, 2010, 05:28:56 PM »
I don't think it's just you, Father.  I think, really, we all backed him into a corner that he can't get out of.  I sure do hope he isn't gone for good, though.  That would be a shame.

I didn't respond to this immediately (forgive me, Father) because I didn't want to believe it was true.  Call me naive, but I wanted to believe that this time I had finally been clear and to the point with my questions, specific enough that they would be easier to answer and that David would, indeed, just this once, give a real, honest answer.  I know we overwhelmed him with posts, but I guess I thought he would eventually come back around to mine and stop with the cognitive dissonance.  I guess not...  :'(

Ah well.  A blessed rest of the Lenten journey to you, Father!

No problem here with waiting.  Patience is good for the soul.

In the meantime, I think we have annoyed Alveus.  :(

If there is one thing I have learned in forums: you can't please 'em all.

As for David and his posts on an Orthodox forum, I invoke the "Law of Super-Chicken"...

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

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Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #240 on: March 12, 2010, 08:55:45 PM »
Poor Alveus, annoy him when he is right. It is absolutely not fair to say that a Hierarch of the OC, RCC, or my church such as the deceased Mar Benyamin Shimun:




is doing a poorer job at preserving the teachings of the apostles then these guys  ;D:







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Offline Rosehip

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #241 on: March 12, 2010, 09:16:46 PM »
Now, I see that as rather unfair, Rafa. There are many humble, sober Protestants who are nothing like Benny Hinn etc. It is unfair to lump everyone together. I certainly don't connect David with those three photos at the bottom of your post, and I'm experienced enough to know that there are MANY sober Evangelicals who would want nothing to do with that brand of Christianity.
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline Melodist

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #242 on: March 12, 2010, 09:45:44 PM »

I can't believe I missed it.

Now, I see that as rather unfair, Rafa. There are many humble, sober Protestants who are nothing like Benny Hinn etc. It is unfair to lump everyone together. I certainly don't connect David with those three photos at the bottom of your post, and I'm experienced enough to know that there are MANY sober Evangelicals who would want nothing to do with that brand of Christianity.

I know plenty of protestants who reject all those TV "evangelists" and the "gospel" they offer. Unfortunately, that is the message that is being spread using media and apparently is popular enough for people to keep funding it.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #243 on: March 12, 2010, 10:52:43 PM »

I can't believe I missed it.

I'm REAL sorry I missed it: the date is the exact day I met my exwife.  Scotty, beam me up.

How do they calculate these dates?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 10:53:41 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #244 on: March 12, 2010, 11:50:53 PM »
I'm sorry it wasn't clear that I was being sarcastic.  David is not my enemy.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #245 on: March 13, 2010, 12:12:34 AM »
One more enemy has been successfully defeated!  Congratulations, my One True Church brothers and sisters!

No.  Tears ... not triumphalism....   :'(

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #246 on: March 13, 2010, 12:42:50 AM »
What is wrong with everybody?!?! The comment was obviously sarcastic!  Christ says to love your enemies, if I even considered him one, which I don't!  Gosh!

Offline dllwatkins

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #247 on: March 13, 2010, 12:47:10 AM »
But detaching the NT from Holy Tradition, I do think that our understanding of the words and roles form a coherent and consistent whole.

I am not saying that your claim to unbroken historical succession of bishops is false (though neither do I see it as proven). What I have said is, that it is not in our view a biblical concept, and thus even if it is a historical fact, it has no spiritual importance.
I think this underscores an important difference in perspectives.  Our Faith is not derived from the Bible as if we found this book and started the Christian Faith.  You can't detach it from Holy Tradition, it is a part of it and comes out of it.  We don't form concepts from it as a religious text in and of itself.  It does, in fact, have an historical and religious context.  In this connection, I would recommend the following article as very pertinent to this discussion:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/Saint-Hilarion-Holy-Scripture-and-the-Church.pdf

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #248 on: March 13, 2010, 01:16:55 AM »
What is wrong with everybody?!?! The comment was obviously sarcastic!  Christ says to love your enemies, if I even considered him one, which I don't!  Gosh!

Dear Alveus,

As a rule, I never underestimate my ability to confuse people... or be confused.

Obviously it was 'sarcastic,' but the intent behind your sarcasm is less than obvious given the responses.  There isn't anything wrong with the folks here, they are just doing what humans do best: they read what they want to read rather than your intentions.

This is one of the drawbacks of internet communication: people don't "know" you and they certainly can't see the expressions on your face as you type.  That's why, to prevent misreadings, your sarcasm would best serve you by providing your own 'decoder ring,' be it a smiley or a simple explanation.

Frankly, I took your sarcasm to mean that you thought we were beating David up unfairly and then were high-fiving each other afterwards.  That's why I responded the way I did.  That's what is 'wrong with me.' ;)

Anyway, in my old age I have discovered that my own sense of humor is generally inaccessible to others, which is why I tend to share it less and less as I get on in years.  Most of my problems have come from trying to be smart or funny.  Now I see what great liabilities those efforts have been.

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Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #249 on: March 13, 2010, 01:18:14 AM »

I can't believe I missed it.

I'm REAL sorry I missed it: the date is the exact day I met my exwife.  Scotty, beam me up.

How do they calculate these dates?

More on the rapture, here's a rapture video game which is selling amongst evangelicals:


http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/leftbehindeternalforces/video/6130072
(trailer)

http://www.eternalforces.com/




Quote
Not much is known about this mysterious leader of the Enigma Babylon One World Faith. All that is known is that he had absolutely no religious background, training or belief before the disappearances. The disappearances brought chaos to the world and Carpathia needed someone to promote a One World Religion. The Enigma Leader had no religious background, but was an excellent public speaker. He quickly told people that religions had caused divisions and bloodshed and under the GC banner they would strive to see God in each person. The religion quickly found acceptance around the world just as Carpathia predicted. His efforts for unity among religions hit one snag, however. Christians who still contended Jesus Christ had returned to take his own were enemies of the One World Religion.  

The new one Ive seen amongst Baptists is very disturbing to me...they have adopted the JW apologetic that Christ did not die on a Cross (which is "pagan") but on a "torture stake" instead:



For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things
Philippians 3:18-19
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 01:24:39 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #250 on: March 13, 2010, 01:39:17 AM »
That video game thing is totally unreal!

Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #251 on: March 13, 2010, 02:18:01 AM »
Its a real video game  ;D

You play as one of the people "left behind" from the rapture, and you build little tank things to combat antichrist peacekeepers, muslims, and catholics/orthodox. The orthodox and catholics become little evil spirit things which attack your player. All orthodox are under the "Enigma one mystery babylon" religion (a thinly veiled pope I showed). Baptist pastors have superpowers and launch little rays from their mouths to kill demons.

Here is a pic of a "lost soul" which the orthodox and catholics turn into if they don't become evangelicals:



« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 02:21:49 AM by Rafa999 »
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Offline GreekChef

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #252 on: March 13, 2010, 08:07:01 AM »
Wow, all I was doing was expressing my disappointment that David had gone away and the conversation had stopped. It certainly wasn't meant as triumphalism. It certainly wasn't meant to cause such a flurry of posts! Now I'm embarrased! But, I think David knows he is my friend. I am confident in that. I, too, will wait and pray that he is well.

And Rafa, as David is my friend and a sincere Christian man, and seeing as how it's Lent and we're supposed to be more charitable, Lets not associate him with all of those charicatures and stereotypes that you posted, eh? For those of us that have been talking to David for over a year now, we can certainly vouch that he isn't one...
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Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #253 on: March 13, 2010, 12:20:16 PM »
Which enemy? I thought David was a friend of all here, whether Orthodox or not. If anything, he should be in everyone's prayers out of love. I certainly do NOT consider myself your enemy simply because I am not Eastern Orthodox.

Amen!
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #254 on: March 13, 2010, 11:20:24 PM »
The new one Ive seen amongst Baptists is very disturbing to me...they have adopted the JW apologetic that Christ did not die on a Cross (which is "pagan") but on a "torture stake" instead:

In Orthodoxy, we die to the flesh on the "Torture Steak" during Lent... at least the smell of it!   ;)
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Offline David Young

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #255 on: March 14, 2010, 06:27:38 PM »
I've been away in Tewkesbury for a few days off with my wife. Tomorrow, I go away for a few days with my work. There have been so many posts and questions that I probably shall never answer them now, but I dare say the same points will arise again in discussion between us. Even so, you may have asked questions (I forget now what they all were!) to which I do not know an answer. In fact, I distrust religious people who have all the answers to all questions. It seems to reduce God and take the mystery out of worshipping him and walking with him.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #256 on: March 14, 2010, 07:57:57 PM »
I've been away in Tewkesbury for a few days off with my wife. Tomorrow, I go away for a few days with my work. There have been so many posts and questions that I probably shall never answer them now, but I dare say the same points will arise again in discussion between us. Even so, you may have asked questions (I forget now what they all were!) to which I do not know an answer. In fact, I distrust religious people who have all the answers to all questions. It seems to reduce God and take the mystery out of worshipping him and walking with him.

Glad to see you check in.
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #257 on: March 14, 2010, 08:14:31 PM »
David I was only joking. Of course you are not like those guys I posted, everybody here knows that. I'd be careful though, a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Also glad to see you check in, and where is Cleopas?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 08:16:20 PM by Rafa999 »
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Offline deuteros

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #258 on: April 12, 2010, 09:46:45 AM »
Whatever happened to the Greek speaking churches in Antioch, Greece, Jerusalem, and in Alexandria?
most protestants can't answer me on this, the best answer I can get is orthodoxy.
My guess is that they would say they were destroyed by the Muslims.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #259 on: April 12, 2010, 12:44:18 PM »
I've been away in Tewkesbury for a few days off with my wife. Tomorrow, I go away for a few days with my work. There have been so many posts and questions that I probably shall never answer them now, but I dare say the same points will arise again in discussion between us. Even so, you may have asked questions (I forget now what they all were!) to which I do not know an answer. In fact, I distrust religious people who have all the answers to all questions. It seems to reduce God and take the mystery out of worshipping him and walking with him.

Just a suggestion. Perhaps you can ask a few questions of us to re-boot the conversation.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline rakovsky

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #260 on: June 09, 2010, 07:22:50 AM »
LOL. We don't get much British understatement here usually.

What does British understatement mean?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 07:24:42 AM by rakovsky »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #261 on: June 09, 2010, 09:44:15 AM »
LOL. We don't get much British understatement here usually.

What does British understatement mean?
British cultural speech patterns seem to have a propensity toward understatement; that is, the intentional use of euphemism and other verbal devices to make a statement with the least possible offence. For example, whereas an American might say, "That is the ugliest man I've ever seen," a British person might say, "That man has a face one simply cannot forget." For this reason, American speech can sometimes appear to the rest of the world to be brash, whereas British parlance can appear elusive and incomprehensible.
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Offline Keble

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #262 on: June 09, 2010, 01:28:09 PM »
Whatever happened to the Greek speaking churches in Antioch, Greece, Jerusalem, and in Alexandria?
most protestants can't answer me on this, the best answer I can get is orthodoxy.

Having watched this sit here for a long time, I have to ask this: why does anyone have to have an answer to what "happened" to them? What is there that has to be explained by some happening?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #263 on: June 09, 2010, 02:57:07 PM »
Whatever happened to the Greek speaking churches in Antioch, Greece, Jerusalem, and in Alexandria?
most protestants can't answer me on this, the best answer I can get is orthodoxy.

Having watched this sit here for a long time, I have to ask this: why does anyone have to have an answer to what "happened" to them? What is there that has to be explained by some happening?


 :)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 02:58:15 PM by rakovsky »

Offline David Young

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #264 on: June 10, 2010, 11:52:18 AM »
Perhaps you can ask a few questions of us to re-boot the conversation.

I did - two in fact. But no-one offered any answers. See "An outsider's impressions" thread.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #265 on: June 10, 2010, 12:34:36 PM »
Whatever happened to the Greek speaking churches in Antioch, Greece, Jerusalem, and in Alexandria?
most protestants can't answer me on this, the best answer I can get is orthodoxy.

Having watched this sit here for a long time, I have to ask this: why does anyone have to have an answer to what "happened" to them? What is there that has to be explained by some happening?


I guess you have never read Aristotle either. The premise is based on "What ever has motion has cause". ;)
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline Keble

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #266 on: June 10, 2010, 04:34:58 PM »
Having watched this sit here for a long time, I have to ask this: why does anyone have to have an answer to what "happened" to them? What is there that has to be explained by some happening?


I guess you have never read Aristotle either. The premise is based on "What ever has motion has cause". ;)

Well, quantum mechanics took causality down a notch quite some years ago, but I still don't see anything here that I, as a Protestant, should be expected to have an explanation for.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #267 on: June 16, 2010, 11:23:50 PM »
I won't take this thread anymore off track talking about my lineage, I just have to share that I found an amazing website that tracks my lineage all the way back to AD 555.  I am the descendant of many French kings!  Unbelievable!

What website is this?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: A question for protestants...
« Reply #268 on: January 14, 2013, 01:30:44 AM »
I think the claim that Protestants make is that the 'real' Church is a Spiritual 'people' and not a 'holy' Institutional/National entity like Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

I think there are two issues with that premise. Firstly, the two are not mutually exclusive. The spiritual people ARE those who belong to the Church. We know this because the Spirit--in St. Paul's own words--would lead to UNITY (1 Cor 1:10)--not into disorder like Protestantism. And thus, if there is order, then there should be a visible body of believers, and we would thus argue that that visible body of believers IS the Orthodox Church. Secondly, they are assuming that the RC and EO Churches are merely "institutions" when we would say that it is the visible body of Christ on Earth. Protestants generally have a really bad understanding of EO/RC ecclessiology.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:31:35 AM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.