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Author Topic: English Liturgy?  (Read 291 times) Average Rating: 0
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Paul
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« on: February 14, 2014, 03:59:17 PM »

Just been wondering, before the Schism and before the Roman Church controlled the English Church, would the Liturgy have been a kind of Western Rite, or would it have been Similar to the Eastern Rite?
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 04:03:04 PM »

Controlled? A bit polemical approach. How about "was part of" instead of controlling?
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Paul
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 04:07:00 PM »

I say control because the English Church had it's own traditions etc before the Roman Church came and changed things to put the English Church more in line with them, despite many not wanting such changes. For this reason I say controlled.

Instead of focusing on Semantics, can we not just focus on the question i've asked before we get into petty quarrels please.
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 04:12:09 PM »

The Celtic Rite was used in Northern Europe.
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 04:13:07 PM »

The Celtic Rite was used in Northern Europe.

Was that a sort of Western Rite? Or was it similar to the Eastern Rites?
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 04:14:12 PM »

The Celtic Rite was used in Northern Europe.

Where? I thought it was just plain old Roman rite with some local variation.
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 08:08:41 PM »

We Orthodox need to be mindful of what occurred historically as opposed to what we wished occurred. The consolidation of western  liturgical Rites in the Church of Rome was essentially complete by the 16th century at its Council of Trent. So yes, there were local rites and variations which existed at the time of the Schism which were later supplanted or suppressed by the time of the Reformation. But, as has been pointed out here on numerous threads over the years, the Constantinopolitan rite, known to us as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, was not in uniform use across the eastern Orthodox World initially, but rather uniformity replaced local liturgical practices in the east over time, albeit centuries prior to when uniformity became the norm (through Vatican 2 at least) in the west.
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 07:11:50 PM »

The English Church was always part of the Latin-speaking Church, even before 1066 and the Norman Invasion.  Whatever Rite the English Church used, you can rest assured that it was a part of the Latin Rite family and very similar to the Roman Rite.  Sometimes people speak of the ancient "Sarum Rite" but that needs to be correctly understood.  Rather than a Sarum Rite, the English Church actually used the Roman Rite with a Sarum Usage.  That means that the text of the English Mass was largely the same as the Mass used in Rome by the Papacy, but it differed in how it was served, sometimes it had different liturgical colors (Blue for Advent, instead of Violet which Rome used) and small things of a similar nature. It was very very close.  You might compare it to the differences in how Greeks and Russians serve the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  Its essentially the same liturgy, but there are some small Greek and Russian variations between each other.  These variations are normal and don't imply any doctrinal difference.  I would not make too much of the difference between the Celtic Church in England and the English Church under Rome.  Its is essentially the same church.
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 07:46:53 PM »

The English Church was always part of the Latin-speaking Church, even before 1066 and the Norman Invasion.  Whatever Rite the English Church used, you can rest assured that it was a part of the Latin Rite family and very similar to the Roman Rite.  Sometimes people speak of the ancient "Sarum Rite" but that needs to be correctly understood.  Rather than a Sarum Rite, the English Church actually used the Roman Rite with a Sarum Usage.  That means that the text of the English Mass was largely the same as the Mass used in Rome by the Papacy, but it differed in how it was served, sometimes it had different liturgical colors (Blue for Advent, instead of Violet which Rome used) and small things of a similar nature.
This, though there is some evidence the "small things of a similar nature" were different enough that some people considered their suppression "painful." The variants of the Latin rite in the English church weren't limited to the Sarum, and in the introduction to the 1549 prayerbook, the first published under an English church independent of Rome, it says one of the purposes of the BCP is exactly what its name implies, common use.

Quote
And where heretofore, there hath been great diversitie in saying and synging in churches within this realme: some folowyng Salsbury use, some Herford use, same the use of Bangor, some of Yorke, and some of Lincolne: Now from hencefurth, all the whole realme shall have but one use. And if any would judge this waye more painfull, because that all thynges must be read upon the boke, whereas before, by the reason of so often repeticion, they could saye many thinges by heart: if those men will waye their labor, with the profite in knowlege, whiche dayely they shal obtein by readyng upon the boke, they will not refuse the payn, in consideracion of the greate profite that shall ensue therof. Source


« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 07:50:44 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 09:43:07 PM »

One way of showing the continuity of Western rites is that all of them have used the same Anaphora since around the time of Pope St. Gregory of Rome. It's called the Roman Canon, known to modern Roman Catholics as "Eucharistic Prayer I" because ours is the first Roman Rite to use alternatives, and you can find it here (http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/tutorial/ordo-missae-4.html) if you're unfamiliar with it. So although there is a great deal of variance in some things, there are major points which unite all the liturgies of the West.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:44:53 PM by Regnare » Logged

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Tags: liturgy  English  schism  western  Pre-Schism  celtic 
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