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Author Topic: Bishops and Crowns  (Read 3068 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: February 04, 2010, 04:00:11 AM »

When did Orthodox bishops start wearing crowns?
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Basil 320
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 08:12:37 AM »

I do not know for sure, but I've read that most of the episcopal vestments of today, were adapted from the Byzantine Imperial attire after the Fall of the Empire, in the mid-15th century.  (I recall the topic of Orthodox clerical vestments was discussed under another topic a few months ago.)
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 11:39:24 AM »

I've also heard that it was after the fall of Constantinople.
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 11:41:28 AM »

So why is this not seen as an "innovation"?
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 11:45:42 AM »

Orthodoxy is filled with inconsistencies. It's a quirk we must grow to love.
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 11:48:04 AM »

Coincidentally, I was just reading about the history of Mitres last night.
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 11:54:02 AM »

Orthodoxy is filled with inconsistencies.

No, they're called mysteriesWink
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 11:59:54 AM »

So why is this not seen as an "innovation"?

In 1815, the idea of married clergy wearing an exorasson was rejected as an "innovation," and yet, nowadays, not wearing it is seen as one.

Clerical and liturgical garb is just something that morphs over time, quite naturally.

Btw, modeling things off of Imperial garb has absolutely nothing to do with the Fall of Constantinople. Such was the case from the fourth century on.
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 12:34:50 PM »

Even the Assyrian bishops, I've seen, wear crown-shaped miters, just like ours.
The custom must have started back when there was still some contact between the two churches.
http://www.assyrianchurchnews.com/www/Image/100117/02.jpg
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 12:40:13 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 12:48:44 PM »

When did Orthodox bishops start wearing crowns?
It it specifically menitiones that SS. James and John the Theologian wore the mitre (like the High Priest).
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 12:48:57 PM »

Even the Assyrian bishops, I've seen, wear crown-shaped miters, just like ours.
The custom must have started back when there was still some contact between the two churches.
http://www.assyrianchurchnews.com/www/Image/100117/02.jpg

Not necessarily. There are many examples of liturgical cross-pollination well into the 12th century. Pretty much all Orthodox churches (EO and OO) use crowns in marriage ceremonies -- a rite that didn't even start until well after Chalcedon.
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 02:57:45 PM »

According to New Advent, originally, only the bishops of Rome and Alexandria had mitres: what became the papal tiara, and the Alexandrian-style mitre-Skouphos.
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 03:48:54 PM »

According to New Advent, originally, only the bishops of Rome and Alexandria had mitres: what became the papal tiara, and the Alexandrian-style mitre-Skouphos.
I wonder if that is accurate.
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2010, 04:31:26 PM »

Replies No, 3 & 4 Re. Innovation, Inconsistency

Doesn't our tradition, which includes practice, evolve over time, when changes become accepted and immersed in the life of he church and then, over a period of many years, perhaps even a century or more, become a part of the tradition?
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2010, 05:54:09 PM »

When did Orthodox bishops start wearing crowns?
It it specifically menitiones that SS. James and John the Theologian wore the mitre (like the High Priest).
A mitre or a diadem? (if I'm not mistaken you speak Greek: Διάδημα). Just like every official in the Empire, the Emperor (Empress), the aristocracy and the Church officials in their public appearances were "διαδεδεμένοι τὴν κεφαλὴν" ("had their heads diademed"; their diadem, or coronet was made of gold for the aristocracy and of diamonds for the Imperial family):
Justinian's diadem  


The coronet changed more during the Macedonian dynasty:
Basil II's coronet

..and in the reign of Manuel I (Comneni dynasty) it resembles more the episcopal skouphos:
Manuel I's Coronet

However, St. Symeon the new Theologian writes in the 11th Century for the Bishops:
«ἀπερικαλύπτῳ κεφαλῇ οἱ τῆς Ἀνατολῆς ἱεράρχαι τήν ἱερουργίαν τελοῦσι» (PG 115, 716)
roughly, "the Eastern Bishops celebrate the Liturgy bare-headed":
The famous mosaic of the Ravenna Basilica. Bishop Maximianus appears bare-headed:

After the fall of Constantinople, for the first time, beginning with the Patriarch of Constantinople (the "ethnarch" of the "Rum milliyet" (Orthodox Nation) of the Empire) appears wearing the late Byzantine (Palaeologean) Imperial garments in 1621 (Patriarchy of Cyril Lucaris):
Constantine Palaeologus' Imperial Garments:
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 05:59:12 PM by Apostolos » Logged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG5JWZlpfBA
St. John Papadopoulos "The Koukouzelis"
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 05:54:47 PM »

It it specifically menitiones that SS. James and John the Theologian wore the mitre (like the High Priest).

What mentions this?
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 06:37:03 PM »

Papias, I think, as quoted by Eusebius.
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 09:55:44 PM »

When did Orthodox bishops start wearing crowns?
It it specifically menitiones that SS. James and John the Theologian wore the mitre (like the High Priest).
A mitre or a diadem? (if I'm not mistaken you speak Greek: Διάδημα).
πέταλον, the term for the plate on the High Priests turban (Ex. 28:36-7).

Polycrates of Asia also mentioned it of St. John.
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 10:30:04 PM »


Not necessarily. There are many examples of liturgical cross-pollination well into the 12th century. Pretty much all Orthodox churches (EO and OO) use crowns in marriage ceremonies -- a rite that didn't even start until well after Chalcedon.

That's interesting.  I always wondered about that custom.  I've seen crowns used in weddings, but traditionally it's supposed to be the narod, which is basically a red and white ribbon.  Do others use narods, or is that just Armenian?

You can see an example of narods in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKSSdNo9XGs
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 10:33:03 PM »

So why is this not seen as an "innovation"?

There is a difference between the faith held by the church and how that faith is expressed. Expressions of the faith can change to suit different circumstances as long as the faith being expressed is not changed. Different doctrinal disputes have come up through the centuries that have required the Church to change how terms are defined in order to better clarify what the Church has always believed. The word "Trinity" was once an "innovation", even though the reality it expressed has always been believed. Liturgical differences and innovations are the same. Differences in vestment styles, beards, prayer rules, fasting rules, and other liturgical traditions really are not that important as long as they express the same faith and are done in accordance with the bishop and his synod.
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 10:46:18 PM »


Not necessarily. There are many examples of liturgical cross-pollination well into the 12th century. Pretty much all Orthodox churches (EO and OO) use crowns in marriage ceremonies -- a rite that didn't even start until well after Chalcedon.

That's interesting.  I always wondered about that custom.  I've seen crowns used in weddings, but traditionally it's supposed to be the narod, which is basically a red and white ribbon.  Do others use narods, or is that just Armenian?

You can see an example of narods in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKSSdNo9XGs

Assyrians use them as well but they are red, white and black.
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 11:43:05 PM »


Not necessarily. There are many examples of liturgical cross-pollination well into the 12th century. Pretty much all Orthodox churches (EO and OO) use crowns in marriage ceremonies -- a rite that didn't even start until well after Chalcedon.

That's interesting.  I always wondered about that custom.  I've seen crowns used in weddings, but traditionally it's supposed to be the narod, which is basically a red and white ribbon.  Do others use narods, or is that just Armenian?

You can see an example of narods in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKSSdNo9XGs
Crowning at weddings was originally pagan, but was know in the 1st century among the Hebrews, was railed against in the 2nd and 3rd century but embraced at least in the 4th century, the predominance of the wedding rite being crowning starting in Armenia:
The sacraments By Robert Cabié, Aimé Georges Martimort, p. 193.
http://books.google.com/books?id=O8yr3eoDyVIC&pg=PA193&dq=marriage+crowning+Terullian&lr=&cd=16#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 12:31:00 AM »

That's interesting.  The book seems to indicate that the wedding crowns are of ancient origin and that it first became an important ceremony in Armenia.  Yet I always thought the narods were more ancient.
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 12:36:40 AM »

Quote
Assyrians use them as well but they are red, white and black.



That's a photo of the current Assyrian Church of the East Patriarch, his Holiness Mar Dinkha IV. Yes, he does wear a crown, he merits that crown since he is the ruler of the third Qnome, the Holy Edtha in its Eastern Jurisdiction.
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 04:22:58 PM »

Replies No, 3 & 4 Re. Innovation, Inconsistency

Doesn't our tradition, which includes practice, evolve over time, when changes become accepted and immersed in the life of he church and then, over a period of many years, perhaps even a century or more, become a part of the tradition?

Exactly.
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 06:58:25 PM »

All the clerical Garb has meaning ..Mitre ,helmet ,  ..it's in  scripture.to put on the armour of God....Thats what clergy do....
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