OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 09:59:01 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Islamic tactics  (Read 21349 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2004, 07:04:06 PM »

First off I would like to apologize for my short temper.  I've not been well or sleeping properly and as you can imagine this has taken it toll on my temperament.

Second - some of you are aware of this, but not all - I am part Jewish.  Through the maternal line.  
Third - I am many friends there in Israel right now.  Jews, gentiles, arabs - Jews and Christians.  They are working over there with the Israeli government helping to bring Jews out of countries where they are being oppressed and getting them settled there in the land of their - OUR - fathers.

I’m going to post 2 articles.  They will be a bit longer than I would normally post, but they are important in that they express some things that are being overlooked.

Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2004, 07:05:03 PM »

Our Heroes and Theirs
By Jonathan Medved
CNSNews.com Commentary | September 15, 2003

Last Tuesday's terror in Jerusalem struck close to home. The boom of the blast at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim shook the windows of our house and left no doubt that we were hit again-this time in our own neighborhood.

Our son Yossi was on the phone with his brother Momo, asking when he would be back so they could watch another episode on DVD of 24, the addictive US series about terrorism. Momo was crossing Emek Refaim, which is two blocks from our house, and they both heard the blast.

Momo, 16, is a trained paramedic with Magen David Adom. He took out his plastic gloves which he keeps in his school backpack, and began to run the block to the cafe, to help with the injured. Yossi ran out the door with my wife Jane to go get Momo.

Momo was one of the first to arrive at the scene. As he described it later, it was a scene straight out of Dante or Eli Wiesel. Victims were screaming and strewn about. A group of bystanders was attempting to put out a fire that was consuming a man. Amputated legs and arms were lying in pools of blood. A mans head was in the middle of the street.

Momo acted according to the training he received this summer, in a course designed to teach him how to handle these kinds of events. As soon as the lead ambulance arrived he was told who to evacuate and he helped carry the injured on stretchers.

Within ten minutes it was over, and the amazing Israeli emergency medical teams had again acted with alacrity and professionalism. His mother and brother found him covered with victims blood and walked him home.

I was in the office when the blast hit, and was frantic with worry because I could not find anyone by phone. Finally I got a call from my son Yossi telling me that our family was okay and that we would meet at home.

Getting home and seeing your son's clothes splattered with blood of a terror attack, is a parental experience I will not forget. The relief of seeing him unhurt mixed together with the pain and outrage and grief of an attack so close to home.

After Momo showered, we together watched on TV the surreal scenes of our amazing and beautiful neighborhood hit, hurt and bleeding. Momo was curled up with his dog Lucy, hugging her and trying to regain some semblance of normalcy. A 16-year-old boy, having done his heroic work and having seen scenes that one should never see, trying to return to what's left of his adolescence.

We watched the scenes of jubilation in Gaza, with thousands of Palestinians taking to the streets in spontaeous celebration, delirious with joy at the "quality" attacks. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and others praised the "bravery" of the suicide bombers and shouted their satisfaction. He in particular mentioned the "great" Abu Shnab, the "engineer" of dozens of Israeli deaths whose death was now avenged.

I was struck by the contrast between the two societies. Our heroes were out on Emek Refaim fighting to save lives, to practice emergency medicine, to reduce casualties. Their heroes were sowing death and destruction; their engineering was the science of terror.

As the bright Jerusalem sun came up again over our neighborhood the next day, most of the outward signs of destruction had been washed away and cleaned up. Despite the continued terror alerts and torrent of news about yesterday's attacks, the children need to go to school, to get on with our lives.

But the news contained more bitter tidings that took your breath away. Among the dead in last night's blast was Dr. David Applebaum and his daughter Nava. Nava was due to be married tonight in a joyous wedding of 500 guests. David was a doctor of emergency medicine who was a fixture in Jerusalem's medical scene, having treated hundreds of terror victims. He was the founder of Terem, Jerusalem's private emergency medical clinic, and my best friends partner. He was a learned man, a kind man, a tzaddik. He was a true hero of Jerusalem.

I am letting Momo sleep in this morning. I tried to wake him but he said he needed some more sleep. His teacher from school just called to say that he heard from Momo's friends that he had a tough night and was among the first on the terror scene.

He suggested that after we attend this morning's funeral for Dr. Applebaum and his daughter that I take him to school, so he can be with his friends and talk about what has happened. My son and his friends - true heroes of Jerusalem.

***Los Angeles native Jonathan Medved is the founder of Israel Seed Partners, a venture capital fund, and resides with his family in Jerusalem.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2004, 07:07:28 PM »

A Fake Palestinian State or a Real One?

By Emuna Elon
June 16, 2003    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   I have to admit my astonishment at the "New" peace proposal, the so-called "road map".


A 2 state solution? Ok., fine. Two states, one Israeli and the other palestinian, already exist side by side - on opposite sides of the Jordan River. The country of Jordan is a Palestinian state in every respect: more then 80% of the population is Palestinian, and its 90,000sq. km of territory are part of the original Palestine mandate, which the British partitioned back in the 1920s between Jews and Arabs.

There's no logic or justice in further partition of the 28,000 sq. kms remaining in Israel's hands to create a second Palestinian state, west of Jordan, at the expense of the small territory in which the Jewish people is trying to maintain its state in the midst of a hostile, Muslim Middle East.

Superficially, the internal Israeli debate is between those who agree to creating a Palestinian state west of the Jordan and those who oppose the idea. But the fact is that even the Israeli left doesn't agree to a real Palestinian state, armed and sovereign, a few minutes distance from Israel's main population centers. The most that even the most generous of Israeli leftist are willing to give the Palestinians - and the most that G.W. Bush's America is also willing to give - is nothing but a pseudo-state: two non-contiguous pieces of land, one in the Gaza Strip on the west of Israel and the other in Judea and Samaria in the east, in which a Palestinian entity would exist under constant outside supervision, without the right to sign international agreements and without any army of its own.

Why would the Palestinians agree to such a "state"? Why would they agree to end their 120-year war against Zionism in return for such a farce? Why should they give up their most sacred principle, the "right of return" of refugees from 1948 to their former homes within the Green Line? And where, in the proposed "state", would they be able to rehabilitate the 3 million members of their people who have been rotting for 55 years in refugee camps?

The answer to these question is the practical reason for the struggle of the Israeli right against the Oslo Accords, for its opposition to the Clinton guidelines, and for its current protests against Bush's "road map": The Palestinians, in fact, won't be satisfied with an insulting farce, won't give up on the "right of return", and won't stop the terror attacks after the creation of a pseudo-state that leaves the refugees in camps. And if their leaders accepted the Oslo, Clinton and Bush plans, they did so only as part of the PLO's phased strategy, which combines diplomatic tactics and armed struggle, and only in order to receive, as a first phase, international recognition of some sort of Palestinian sovereignty, fictitious as it might be, west of the Jordan.

The internal Israeli debate is really about how intelligent the Palestinians are and how serious they are. America apparently shares the left's evaluation that the Palestinians are stupid and primitive enough to be calmed by the Western illusion of national self-determination. The right, on the other hand, believes that Palestinians aren't only very smart, but also very Arab. While the West gives great importance to national self-determination, for Palestinians, is only a means toward liberating all the land that belongs to them according to the Koran, and so the "road map" to creating a Palestinian pseudo-state west of the Jordan can't lead to peace, but only to an escalation of terror until the final goal is achieved.

We don't need the United States to invent a destructive, illusory "vision" of a Palestinian state next to Israel. A real Palestinian state already exists next to Israel, on the east bank of the Jordan, and we definitely do need the help of the United States in order to institutionalize the connection of Palestinians living west of the Jordan to their state, whose capital is Amman. We definitely do need massive American involvement to settle the problem of the 1948 refugees, by creating an international program to rehabilitate them and to dismantle the shameful camps that Arab leaders would like to preserve as hothouses for terror and hatred. And there's no doubt we need the determination of the American victor in Iraq to make clear to the Palestinians that terror won't pay.

George W. Bush can make a difference or he can join the list of his predecessors who looked for the lost coin under the lamppost and didn't understand that it was waiting for them to find in another spot entirely.
 
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/MoreEng/ArticleJerReport16-6-03.html
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2004, 07:08:24 PM »

A list of truths

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.  

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.  Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.  There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey at ''the edge'' - at the edge of the Temple mount.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost.  Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/thefacts.html
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2004, 07:09:09 PM »

More Facts

During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian cruse death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.


Before 1967, when Israel's occupation started, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.


Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)


Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli occupation.


Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.


This was not the only effect Israeli occupation had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.
 
http://www.middleeastfacts.com/thefacts2.html
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2004, 03:55:23 AM »

They are working over there with the Israeli government helping to bring Jews out of countries where they are being oppressed


....to the most dangerous country a Jew today would be mad enough to reside in.

Quote
and getting them settled there in the land of their - OUR - fathers.

This imperialist ambition is sadly quite true, as Israel's recently revealed plans for a new wave of settler expansionism in the occupied Golan Heights clearly illustrate.  Levantine Christians everywhere would no doubt  be jumping for joy at a chance to play a role in the noble and epic enterprise of land theft and colonisation for the greater glory of your Eretz Israel.  I'm afraid, however, that they have little to contribute as compared to the swindled American taxpayer, and would therefore direct you to those coffers in order to achieve more concrete results in your assault against the eighth commandment of the Decalogue.

In IC XC
Samer
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 10:39:44 AM by SamB » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2004, 01:32:59 PM »

SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

Israel does not displace inorder to settle - they move people into UNOCCUPIED lands.  

As for land theft - get real.  According to original British mandate, Israel was to have ALL of what Israel currently controls AS WELL AS what is now the kingdom of Jordan.

You can hate Israel and the Jewish people all you like and choose muslims over the people God called the apple of his eye, I for one will not.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2004, 02:51:56 PM »

>SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

And you're a teacher.  Bloody scary, if you ask me.

Re: Israel and Jews, I most certainly loathe the former, and steadfastly reject your poorly-flung charge of hate concerning the latter.

In IC XC
Samer
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 02:56:42 PM by SamB » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2004, 04:31:37 PM »

>SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

And you're a teacher.  Bloody scary, if you ask me.

Yes I'm sure it wouyld scare you that there are still people in the education field who think and do research and refuse to trust the left and those who would rewrite history to suit their own needs.

Quote

Re: Israel and Jews, I most certainly loathe the former, and steadfastly reject your poorly-flung charge of hate concerning the latter.


Oh you do not hate Jews?  SO tell me, why do you oppose their returning to their ancient homeland?  It's not like they have not purchased that land with money, sweat, blood, and tears.  Would you have them confined to ghettos instead?
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Vicki
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 122



« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2004, 04:53:04 PM »

Pity, SamB, you didn't have a teacher like that: One who could TEACH objectively. Then JUST possibly, you might be better informed, and not spouting a hate agenda.
Logged

"Him whom the heavenly hosts glorify and before Whom Cherubim and Seraphim tremble, let every breath and all creation praise, bless and exalt throughout all ages."
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2004, 06:01:43 PM »

http://www.pmw.org.il/new/index.html
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2004, 06:34:05 PM »

Jews vs Muslims, with Christians oppressed by all...what would that look like as a mathematical equation?
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2004, 06:43:25 PM »

Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2004, 06:44:14 PM by Br. Max, OFC » Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Vicki
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 122



« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2004, 07:12:49 PM »


Pretty revealatory.
Logged

"Him whom the heavenly hosts glorify and before Whom Cherubim and Seraphim tremble, let every breath and all creation praise, bless and exalt throughout all ages."
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2004, 07:33:11 PM »

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2004, 10:38:35 PM »

Quote
Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.

Jews view messianic judaism with suspicion and scorn. I remember listening to NPR (mea culpa!) a few years back, and some messianic jews who were appearing in a pan-Jewish parade were wearing hats that said, "He lives." The other jews were throwing rocks at them, and shouting "he's dead". It's just a sad fact of life...in the middle east, ideology is everything, and Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)
Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2004, 10:40:25 PM »

Quote
Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

Not only there, but in most of the middle east.   Sad to say, but it is true.
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2004, 11:00:57 PM »

[ According to original British mandate, Israel was to have ALL of what Israel currently controls AS WELL AS what is now the kingdom of Jordan.]

Bro Max,
I really think that the Balfour Declaration called for Israel and Palestine to coexist as 2 nations.  The declaration makes no mention of the kingdom of Jordan or Trans-Jordan as it was known.  The Israelis also control and are settling people in the Golan something not mentioned in Balfour. Just a little historical correction.

Carpo-Rusyn
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2004, 12:21:11 AM »

Quote
Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.

Jews view messianic judaism with suspicion and scorn. I remember listening to NPR (mea culpa!) a few years back, and some messianic jews who were appearing in a pan-Jewish parade were wearing hats that said, "He lives." The other jews were throwing rocks at them, and shouting "he's dead". It's just a sad fact of life...in the middle east, ideology is everything, and Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

We should all view messianic Judaism with suspicion and scorn.  Those that say they are Messianic Jews are in most cases either Judaizers, or gentiles pretending to be Jews or both.  Most often BOTH.  Any doubts?  Take a trip over to CF and visit the “Messianic forum.”  You will see “Messianic Jews rejecting the trinity and the Nicene creed living instead Pharasitical Judaism.

Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2004, 12:23:36 AM »

Quote
Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

Not only there, but in most of the middle east.   Sad to say, but it is true.  

WHY?  Why is the Christian voice so small in lands where Christianity was born and first flourished?  ISLAM!!  Islamic Jihad.  Islamic Janissaries.  Islamic dhimmi.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2004, 02:21:04 AM »

Bro Max,
I really think that the Balfour Declaration called for Israel and Palestine to coexist as 2 nations.  The declaration makes no mention of the kingdom of Jordan or Trans-Jordan as it was known.  The Israelis also control and are settling people in the Golan something not mentioned in Balfour. Just a little historical correction.

Carpo-Rusyn

NOt Balfore, but the UN called for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as two nations in relatively the same space.  Balfore called for a completely independant and unfettered Israel.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2004, 04:09:41 AM »

Yes I'm sure it wouyld scare you that there are still people in the education field who think and do research

It's reassuring to know you're not numbered amongst them.  

Quote
and refuse to trust the left and those who would rewrite history to suit their own needs.

I certainly would hate to see the vapid and redundant tracts of predictable Israeli assertions and litanies that you let do your thinking be counted as serious study.  

But I'm afraid in your case, I am too late.

Quote
Oh you do not hate Jews?
 

I suggest you don't presume to play inquisitor with me.  Please take care to note again: I do not hate Jews.

Quote
SO tell me, why do you oppose their returning to their ancient homeland?
 

You're more of a leftist than you think; I oppose social engineering in all its forms.

Quote
It's not like they have not purchased that land with money, sweat, blood, and tears.
 

Yes, with those of their victims I have no doubt.

Quote
Would you have them confined to ghettos instead?

Kindly shove off.

In IC XC
Samer
Logged
SamB
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 784

Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2004, 04:19:00 AM »

Pity, SamB, you didn't have a teacher like that: One who could TEACH objectively. Then JUST possibly, you might be better informed, and not spouting a hate agenda.

Dear Vicki,

Please note that I was brought up in the Levant, closer to the action and Middle Eastern saga than you might assume.  Rather than cheerleading and accusing me of hate and ignorance, perhaps you should verse yourself a little more in the history of this conflict.  

In IC XC
Samer
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2004, 04:38:35 AM »

Need I remind everyone here that the Church of Jerusalem is called the the Church of Jerusalem and all Palestine?  I think the name, Palestine has been around longer than many think.  Just because the Jews have always been there, doesn't mean we should change the name of the Orthodox Church in that area.  Israel is God's people; not just the land of the Jews.
Logged
carpo-rusyn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 383



« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2004, 08:25:03 AM »

I seem to remember in a previous thread on the Balkans tempers rose a bit.  Someone rightly pointed out that neither side was entirely blameless and the history of the Balkans was very complicated.  I would suggest the same thing as far as the Middle East goes.  I think that one could point fingers at both sides as well as point fingers at the Christian govt's of the west who set all this in motion.

Carpo-Rusyn
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2004, 02:06:00 PM »

SAM:  You cannot refute any point I have made so you choose instead to attack my person?  How enlightened of you. I'm glad to see that the fine art of AD HOMINEM attacks has not been lost.

NOW, if you are quite finished attacking ME, why not deal with the issue at hand - Do the Jews have the right to the land that was first given to them by God, second bought through blood sweat, tears and money? Tell me - OH ENLIGHTENED ONE - what would you have done instead?
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2004, 02:09:11 PM »

Carpo: of course no one is an innocent in this issue, it would be foolish to pretend otherwise.  But when Israel has time and again tried to work WITH the truculent and belligerent arabs to settle this issue and have peace, the base nature of the sons of Ishmael time and again rears its ugly head.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2004, 02:26:08 PM »

Personally, I don't believe that the Jews deserve Israel anymore than anyone else.   Menachem Begin and his lot were terrorists; no different that Arafat and his lot.

Max -- I am not trying to pick a fight, but how can you fault the Palestinians when Menachem Begin and his terrorists used similar tactics in their fight for the independence of Israel? Like when they blew up the King David Hotel in July of 1946.

Concerning the King David terrorist act, here is an article from the Christian Sciene Monitor:


---

by Scott Perterson
The Christian Science Monitor
A M M A N, Jordan, Aug. 9

Just after the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, a call was placed to a newspaper in Cairo to claim responsibility.

Playing out a script well rehearsed in the Mideast for decades, the caller said he was from the Liberation Army of the Islaamic Sanctuaries, a previously unheard of group.

Even the journalist who took the call doubts it was genuine, and except for a threat received from Egypt's Islamic Jihad and published by the pan-Arab newspaper Al-Hayat investigators have few clues yet, or even a sense that the bombings were the work of Mideast extremists.

State Dept.: 30,000 Threats a Year But the fact that terrorist attacks are often accompanied by multiple claims of responsibility points to the reason terror continues to be an attractive weapon for those who use it: Their message is heard around the world.

For more than half a century, most terrorists originated in the Mideast. Some did it for national redemption, others for revenge, and still others against a panoply of enemies real or imagined. Their tactics and targets have evolved as the world learns how to deal with them. In recent years, terrorism has generally declined, although the threat against Americans remains serious.

The US State Department says it receives 30,000 threats a year and takes every one seriously. The FBI database starting point for suspects is reported to include 200,000 individuals and 3,000 groups.

One of the precedents in the Middle East was set in British-run Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s, when the Zionist terrorist groups Irgun, Stern, and Haganah attacked British and Palestinian targets. The breakthrough came with the spectacular destruction in July 1946 less than two years before Israel was declared a state of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

This was the impenetrable fortress, the British military and civilian headquarters, wrapped in steel doors and barbed wire and constantly guarded. When milk churns packed with high explosives in the basement sheared the building in two, the message was sent around the world that a new nation was about to be born.

Seed Sowed for Modern Terrorism
Menachem Begin, who masterminded the King David attack, and later prime minister of Israel, described in his book The Revolt the thinking behind such acts of terrorists. There are times when everything in you cries out: your very self-respect as a human being lies in your resistance to evil, Mr. Begin wrote. Then, playing on Descartes words, he added: We fight, therefore we are.

But the creation of Israel left a losing side too. To the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dispossessed of their land in 1948, that event is still called al Nakbah, the Catastrophe. It sowed the seed for modern terrorism, and for future attempts at more and more spectacular attacks that seek to grab the worlds attention.

That lesson was learned in the late 1960s and 1970s by Palestinian guerrillas, who recognized the propaganda value of making their issue known through violence. First gathered in 1955 for cross-border attacks into Israel as fedayeen (those who sacrifice themselves), Palestinian guerrillas made their global breakthrough in 1972 at the Olympic Games in Munich, Germany.

A handful of members of the Black September group so named after the brutal crushing and expulsion of Palestinian forces from Jordan by King Hussein in September 1970 broke into the Israeli team rooms and took Jewish athletes hostage.

King David Lesson Learned
After a drawn-out saga that included helicoptering to a waiting airplane, all but three of the guerrillas were killed along with all of the hostages. A Palestinian spokesman, quoted by British journalist David Hirst in his book The Gun and the Olive Branch (1977), claimed that A bomb in the White House, a mine in the Vatican ... could not have echoed through the consciousness of every man in the world like the operation of Munich.... It was like painting the name of Palestine on the top of a mountain that can be seen from the four corners of the earth.

The King David lesson had been learned and put into practice, and galvanized Palestinian warriors. The classic definition of Black September, as noted by Mr. Hirst, holds true of terrorists today, for whom it is more of a calling than a state of mind.

As one youth described terrorism in Mr. Hirsts book: It cannot be pinpointed, tracked down, or crushed. It has no name, no flag, no slogans, headquarters, or base. It requires only men who have the determination to fight and succeed and the courage to die.

Americans Become Targets
The 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran galvanized Islamic extremists, especially of the minority Shia sect scattered throughout the Islamic world, and in southern Lebanon, when Ayatollah Khomeini demanded the export of the revolution. The example was put forth: 52 Americans were taken hostage and held 444 days.

Americans became targets, and in 1983 the US Marines barracks in Beirut were bombed, leaving 241 dead. American troops soon pulled out. The bombers likely got what they wanted.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union at the turn of the decade, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and the subsequent Arab-Israeli peace process, many Middle East groups that had carried out terrorist attacks either disappeared or lay low.

But as the attacks against the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania attest, the King David lesson has not been forgotten. Who did the attacks in Kenya and Tanzania? Fingers point in many directions. High on the list of backers is multimillionaire Saudi exile Osama bin Laden, who lives in Afghanistan and earlier this year vowed to wage a Holy War against American military and civilian targets.



« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 02:39:01 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2004, 02:35:56 PM »

sorry if I cannot trust a cultic source like the Christian science monitor.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2004, 02:38:28 PM »

sorry if I cannot trust a cultic source like the Christian science monitor.

That's fine Max (they are too liberal for my taste too), but just do a google search and read one of the articles returned.

Terrorism is terrorism. Do you agree with the killing of innocents by the Jews as a tool to gain back what was given to them by God?
If you do, then you can't fault the Palestinians fro doing the same.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 02:46:50 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2004, 02:47:17 PM »

Tom: Let's get our heads out of the internet for a second and look at things from a human POV.  

NOW, lets look at a few simple questions:

First - When did Israel become a nation?
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2004, 02:55:48 PM »

Do you mean a nation state or an ethnic and cultural group?

The Kurds are a nation, in the sense of a self-conscious people, but they are not a nation state.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2004, 03:09:55 PM »

I am not going to get into an argument about this -- it is not really that important to me. My POV is that Israel deserves nothing and that they have no more right to that patch of land than the Palestinians.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2004, 03:10:39 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2004, 03:11:13 PM »

peterfarrington: Very good point.  But ultimately one that makes little difference since they pretty much happened at the same time. Smiley   Yes, the nation of Israel (as a geo-political entity) disappeared from the map for a while, but then - so did the nation of Poland.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2004, 03:14:07 PM »

Tom: they of course have more of a right to that land.  One it was given them by God, 2 the have worked it so as to make it prosper. They have made the dessert bloom. 3 They have stayed and faught for it.  Lets not forget that these much celebrated palestinian refugees became refugees in the firstplace because their Arab leaders promised them that if they left Israel, Israel would be pushed into the sea.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2004, 03:35:37 PM »

Hiya Br Max. Not arguing against you but surely the nation state of Israel ceased to exist 1933 years ago, in fact even that state was a Roman province and not an independent nation state, and the modern nation state of Israel is entirely that, a modern state.

This doesn't mean that the modern state of Israel should not exist. I am sure there is a real justification for a modern Kurdish nation state as well. But in the UK if the Cornish folk in the UK manage to restore a Cornish state it will be a modern construct. It may well have its own justification but it cannot simply claim to be in continuity with the independent Cornish state which disappeared well over 1000 years ago.

As a genuine question, I am English and would probably fight to preserve the state of England and the United Kingdom. But essentially I am an Orthodox Christian and that matters much more to me. I can be Orthodox in many different circumstances. Why is it necessary that there be a state of Israel. There is no persecution of Jewish folk in the UK, and most of the Jewish folk I know have not been particularly religious. Why can Jewish people not be part of a variety of cultures and peoples? If they are fighting for a secular state then why should they have that right above any other group that wants its own piece of land. If they are fighting for the free exercise of their religion then how are they different from my own coreligionists who have suffered for 1500 years in the exercise of their faith without seeking to create their own state by force?

On what basis is Israel necessary? I don't suggest that now it exists it should cease to exist. But that is the point. History changes everything. We can't choose some point in time and insist it has some international and universal applicability.

My own land here has been the Celtic province of the Cantii, the Roman province of Brittania, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of the Kentware, then part of the Kingdom of Wessex and then England and now the United Kingdom. I don't see how it could be appropriate to say that the 'real' Kent is one of these early kingdoms and seek to 'restore' it in some fashion by force. What ever I restored would be a modern construct.

How is a modern Israel any different from any other conflict over a piece of land? When do any of us have a 'right' to a piece of land? And the argument that the modern Israelites are the same as the Israel of promise is disputed by many churches and Christians.

How can it be justified, as an example, for a group of prosperous folk of Jewish ethnic origin living safely in the UK to travel to the modern state of Israel, take up arms, and settle on disputed land? How is that different from me turning up somewhere in the US, claiming the US as UK property, which it is if we look historically, and then forcing a settlement?

I'm a little confused, quite willing to be persuaded, and not at all anti-Jewish or even anti-Israel as a matter of political dogma.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2004, 04:26:34 PM »

I heard somewhere (actually, from a pro-Israel source) that the first suicide bomber in Israel (possibly in all history) was a Jew, attacking Arabs.

As far as viewing the Messianic Jews with suspicion and scorn, well, once Christians on the whole viewed Jews with suspicion and scorn. But now we're just to limit it to Jewish Christians? (Everything you've said about messianic Jews has been said about Jews in general.)

My understanding is that Messianic Jews were evangelicals with mosaic law. Didn't know they were Judaizers. But I will research this further and will not use the forum at CF as the basis for my verdict.
Logged
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2004, 04:35:30 PM »

http://mjaa.org/

From their Statement of Faith, they appear to be evangelicals with Jewish customs. At cursory glance, they hardly seem like judaizers.
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2004, 04:40:57 PM »

Caffeinator: you will find most Jewish believers do not become "Messianic’s" and that most "Messianic’s" are in truth gentiles - Baptists specifically.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2004, 04:41:38 PM »

Peter: as far as the arabs are concerned, every INCH of land that is not held by Muslims is disputed land.  Never mind that no one lives on that land - never mind that the land has been legally acquired - never mind that the arabs forfeited their rights to that land when (despite Israeli requests that they STAY and work TOGETHER to build a nation) they up and left.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2004, 04:59:19 PM »

I'm not disputing that. In my own home town only 130 or so years ago every time the Roman Catholics wanted to purchase land - quite legally - to establish a Church they always found that it had been bought up by some rich Protestant.

And Northern Ireland is replete with disputes over land.

And the whole world is replete with arguments about land. Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc etc.

My question is why the modern secular state of Israel is so important? I understand your interest, it is perfectly understandable. And I do sympathise with those who have made it their home. I have no political agenda in wishing Israel to cease to exist.

But why should I judge Israel differently to any other land dispute? I would object if some very rich French people, or Muslims, started buying up land in Kent, however legally, and then built housing estates, quite legally and in line with planning regulations, and then quite legally started a French or Muslim, which is more likely, colony in the middle of my county.

That is not the same as Israel, I'm not saying that. But I am saying that legally buying up unused land isn't necessarily neutral. Nor is making it flourish, or fighting for it. If a load of Muslims started buying land in Kent, making it flourish and then fighting to defend it I would be making my objections to its presence known.

You say that the Arabs lost their right to the land when they left it, but surely this also applies to Israelis only the time scale is thousands of years of absence rather than a few decades.

I'm really not being argumentative but I find your own argument in defence of the modern state of Israel to be naturally rather more passionate than convincing.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Vicki
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 122



« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2004, 05:10:44 PM »


As a genuine question, I am English and would probably fight to preserve the state of England and the United Kingdom. But essentially I am an Orthodox Christian and that matters much more to me. I can be Orthodox in many different circumstances. Why is it necessary that there be a state of Israel. There is no persecution of Jewish folk in the UK, and most of the Jewish folk I know have not been particularly religious. Why can Jewish people not be part of a variety of cultures and peoples? If they are fighting for a secular state then why should they have that right above any other group that wants its own piece of land. If they are fighting for the free exercise of their religion then how are they different from my own coreligionists who have suffered for 1500 years in the exercise of their faith without seeking to create their own state by force?

On what basis is Israel necessary? I don't suggest that now it exists it should cease to exist. But that is the point. History changes everything. We can't choose some point in time and insist it has some international and universal applicability.

I'm a little confused, quite willing to be persuaded, and not at all anti-Jewish or even anti-Israel as a matter of political dogma.


Sub-Deacon Peter....

Although you addressed this to Brother Max, concerning Israel, it immediately made me think of something else I would like to call the board's attention to, and that perhaps will strengthen the point Br. Max is making for a State of Israel being vital.  

Once upon a time, not too long ago, millions of Greeks lived in the Pontos region of Asia Minor, where they had for 3000 years.  They kept their own religion, their own language, and their own customs, until the Muslim Turks decided on genocide. The death march killed about a million...alll the villages were utterly destroyed. Scarcely a ripple made in internalional politics made Hitler decided, yes, there is written proof this was part of his decision making, that the international community wouldn't much care then if he wiped out the Jews...as there hadn't been much outcry to the Pontic Greeks being wiped out.

Now, had these very localized millions of Greeks had SOVEREIGNTY, the Turkish situation would have been an invasion, an act of WAR...the world would have responded.  Instead....a silent genocide that led to another.

Think about it.
Logged

"Him whom the heavenly hosts glorify and before Whom Cherubim and Seraphim tremble, let every breath and all creation praise, bless and exalt throughout all ages."
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2004, 05:43:34 PM »

Yes, this happened to the Armenians in Turkey as well.

But the situation seems to me to be different wrt Israel. (Remember I am not dogmatic on this).

It does not seem likely to me that Jews, religious or secular, would be persecuted in modern America or Britain. In fact we could name a great many famous Jews who have made their homes and their names in the Uk and the USA. Why then should we support the introduction of more and more Jews to an already troubled region when they are not in danger in the US or the UK or a great many other nations.

Roman Catholics have been terribly persecuted in the UK over the past centuries, but they have not sought to establish a Roman Catholic state elsewhere. My own Coptic Orthodox have been terribly persecuted but they do not seek a Coptic state.

This is where I am a bit confused. Why does the introduction of more and more folk from various lands into a troubled situation not add to the likely difficulties which Jews will face?

The Turks killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians, the Soviets killed millions of Christians. The 20th century was full of such horrors. The Rwandan genocide happened just a few years ago. Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia.

Where was the ripple about the Armenian genocide?

The Pontus situation was different. They had lived their 3000 years. The large scale presence of Jews in Palestine is a new phenomena. 2000 years ago my forebears came from northern Germany. What legitimacy would there be for me and my stalwart Engliscan Gesithas to set up an Englisc state in Northern Germany?

It is part of the way of the world that people get treated terribly and it often doesn't cause a ripple. That's shameful but I don't think it has anything to do with sovereignty. When the British took over India where were the ripples? Or South Africa, or any number of sovereign states with governments and borders. Ripples only happen when there is political capital in rippling.

If the state of Israel is vital then so is one for the Kurds, the Cornish, the Basques, and any number of groups threatened with extinction.

Here is my confusion. If Judaism is a religion then surely it does not require a state, and if it is a political agenda then it should be judged like any other political agenda?
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2004, 05:45:52 PM »

Peter: quite simply, the nation of Israel plays a role in prophesy.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2004, 05:48:43 PM »

But only in your opinion, not in mine. I used to be a big fan of Hal Lindsey, but not any more.

The modern nation state of Israel is not the same as the cultural/social/religious community anyhow.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Tags: Islam 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.148 seconds with 71 queries.