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Author Topic: Islamic tactics  (Read 21346 times) Average Rating: 0
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Br. Max, OFC
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« on: December 28, 2003, 09:20:50 PM »

France's Wake-Up Call
By Olivier Guitta
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 23, 2003


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11445


Last week, French President Jacques Chirac declared that "(French) schools will remain secular." Thus, the hijab, the yarmulke and "large crosses" are going to be banned in France’s schools. But the real underlying issue, one not addressed by Chirac, concerns the extremist version of Islam currently threatening the French Republic, host to the largest Muslim population in Europe.

The French Muslim community’ estimated at anywhere between five and eight million people ‘ is totally indoctrinated and controlled by extremist organizations such as UOIF (Union des Organizations Islamiques de France), which is affiliated to the Muslim Brotherhood, a notorious Islamist terrorist group founded in Egypt in 1927.

These fanatics control most French mosques and get financial support from Saudi Arabia. In fact, the Arab Kingdom is behind almost every mosque and Islamic center in France. For example, last week, it was revealed in the French newspaper Le Monde that Saudi Arabia is going to finance the restoration of the Paris Mosque, thus exporting discreetly its extremist version of Islam, Wahhabism.

The most vocal advocate of Wahhabism in France is Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss philosophy teacher who happens to be the grandson of Hassan Al Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. Ramadan has been very active in France during the past ten years, spreading his extremist views and becoming the unofficial voice of French Islam. He has now become a "star," appearing constantly on French prime-time television. Ramadan symbolizes the view, as Jacques Jormier, a leading French expert on Islam, puts it, "that does not modernize Islam but Islamizes modernity." The extent to which Ramadan’s brand of totalitarian Islam has gained a strong foothold in France can be seen in the plight of French Muslim women.


In certain cases, French Muslim families are paid 500 Euros (around 600 USD) per trimester by Muslim organizations just to have their daughters wear the hijab. In fact, a survey done last May found that 77% of girls wearing the hijab do so because of the physical threats received from Islamist groups. Liberation, a major French newspaper, recently showed how Muslim women and girls in France who refuse to wear the hijab are insulted, rejected and often times physically threatened by Muslim males. One of the teenage girls interviewed said, "Every day, bearded men come to me and advise me strongly on wearing the veil. It is a war. For now, there are no dead but there are looks and words that do kill." Muslim women who try to rebel are considered outcasts and "whores." Some of them want to move to areas "with no Muslims" to escape. However, that might not be a solution, as Islamists are at work everywhere in France. For example, L’Humanite, the Communist French newspaper usually very much in sync with France’s Arab population, recently interviewed two Catholic-born French women who said that they converted to Islam after a methodical indoctrination by the Muslim Brotherhood.
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2003, 09:23:37 PM »

The proof the Saddam was getting French aid was that he was armed with a pistol and a machine gun when they found him and what happened? He immediately SURRENDERED. Only the French could render that kind of international assistance Wink
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2003, 09:27:22 PM »

+æll these muslims are going to make our plans to take over France harder.  :-";"xx
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2003, 09:57:10 PM »

I honestly and truly believe that the ONLY hope the moslem nations have rests with their women. This will be interesting to watch.
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2003, 10:06:40 PM »

Sad that France after fighting off the Muslims hundereds of years ago have surrendered to them today.
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2003, 11:52:11 PM »

Sad that France after fighting off the Muslims hundereds of years ago have surrendered to them today.

Ummmm....When have the French won ANY victories worth mentioning?
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2003, 12:28:08 AM »

Their few victories come when slaughtering muslims such as Richard the Lionhearted....still it does say something about your nation when one of your greatest warriors historically was gay....
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2003, 12:39:30 AM »

Your king was a queen, you mean? Wink
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2003, 01:39:17 AM »

And if Howard "the metrosexual" Dean gets elected that will make the second American "Queen" - the first being Jimmy Carter!
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2003, 06:39:05 AM »

Their few victories come when slaughtering muslims such as Richard the Lionhearted....still it does say something about your nation when one of your greatest warriors historically was gay....

What are you talking about? Richard Lionheart was King of England.

And much as I am not a francophile you can hardly ignore the victories of Napoleon across Europe.

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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2003, 08:47:47 AM »

I think he meant that Richard was enjoying his captivity among the Muslims so much he stayed there (under the they bathed, the rest of England didn't) category.
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2003, 08:48:53 AM »

Also, IIRC, wasn't Napolean Corsican?
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2003, 10:22:02 AM »

Yes Napolean was Corsican - FRENCH Corsican.  And I was refering to Charles Martel and the victory at Tours that kept the moors from crossing from Spain into France.

http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2003/10/daily-10-10-2003.shtml
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2003, 10:26:07 AM »

Corsica was a FRENCH territory that the FRENCH SNOBS didn't want to admit they owned. And its culture was so different it would be like sayinf since Puerto Rico is a US territoty  its culture is ours.
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2003, 10:28:02 AM »

vicki: Corsica is more like WEST VIRGINIA!! Grin
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2003, 10:44:01 AM »

Outhouses, inbreeding....etc? Which is why the Parisians didn't want it.
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2003, 01:15:48 PM »

Quote
What are you talking about? Richard Lionheart was King of England.

The fact that he was more French than Anglo by blood since he was descended from the Norman kings.  I guess that is another French victory - William the Conqueror, but is victory over Anglos that hard?  Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2003, 05:57:48 PM »

huh?  Normans french?  That's like saying the Anglos were Saxons or the Basques are Spanish.
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2003, 06:01:09 PM »

I don't let my children swear but they all know that William's nickname was the Bast@rd
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2003, 06:14:20 PM »

let's not forget that our Lord was a bast_rd as well.
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2003, 06:17:04 PM »

I don't think that's QUITE the same thing, there, Bro. Max...
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2003, 06:25:39 PM »

Vicki: not much different.  ANYHOW - the fact remains that after so many sacrificed their lives to keep France and Europe free from Islamic tyranny, it's disgusting to see them embrace it now WILLINGLY!
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2003, 06:41:25 PM »

"Sleeping with the Enemy"
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2003, 06:42:50 PM »

I agree. And a recent report from a Media Agency in the Uk shows that there is a back pedalling on causing any offence at all to Muslims while Christians are constantly abused, stereotyped and denigrated.

But we are run by a liberal, modernist, homosexual clique, so what should I expect.

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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2003, 07:02:34 PM »

"Queer Eye for Buck House?"
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2003, 08:54:07 PM »

Vicki

[I think he meant that Richard was enjoying his captivity among the Muslims so much he stayed there (under the they bathed, the rest of England didn't) category.]

Richard was imprisoned by the Germans not the Muslims. Just a minor point.

It is amazing that across Western Europe mosques are springing up.  Charles the Hammer, Don John of Austria, John Sobieski, et al must be weeping in heaven.  I've even heard there's a mosque in Rome.

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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2003, 08:56:24 PM »

Sorry...I stand corrected.
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2003, 10:38:52 PM »

a mosque in rome?  just another step closer to a one world religion
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2003, 03:23:12 PM »

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11545

Oh yea Palestine wants peace and just LOVES America . . . . .
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2003, 03:40:46 PM »

On the blog this week (link is the sig at bottom of this posting): More on al-Islam, the Mormonism of the East. Basically you can see Muslims as the Mormons of Orthodoxy!

So what if Palestinians don't loooooove America? (It's not like they have the means to conquer and keep it.) Considering that the US has been propping up their oppressors for 50+ years can you blame them? All this heartbreak, injustice, blood shed and money spent over the only patch of land in those parts with no oil in it.

Like Iraq, it's not America's or Britain's war.
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2003, 03:43:43 PM »

Am I my brother's keeper? Surely all war is in some sense our war. Our countries have both pumped enough arms sales into the region to make it our war.
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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2003, 03:47:44 PM »

While I supported the War in Afghanistan (self-defense) and the War in Iraq (preemptive strike--the stirke not being defined in terms of outdated notions of "territoriality" but in terms of threats of biological terrorism against American citizens), I agree with Serge on the Palestinian question.

I used to be unabashedly pro-Israel until I saw "Jerusalem: an occupation set in stone?" a documentary available on amazon.com

The last straw was seeing the Greek Orthodox Church buldozed by the d**m Israelis!

www.washington-report.org is my new favorite political magazine, although I shy away from some of its more extreme statements.

Please note that most people who are pro-Palestinian such as myself are also against the dictatorship of Yasser Arafat, who I used to support but who has now passed his viability and who has amassed a billion dolllar fortune at his countrymen's expense.

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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2003, 03:52:04 PM »

I agree with you Anastasios. I'm not sure about the position of the washington-report but now I've reached 40 I find myself increasingly rejecting the political and social positions I had held for a couple of decades or more. I am also pro-Palestine, without being anti-Israel, just anti the policies which Israel is committed to.
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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2003, 03:52:42 PM »

I'd sooner be pro-nazi than pro-palestinian.
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2003, 03:53:42 PM »

Why is that? Many of the Palestinians are our Christian brethren, though less than there were a few decades ago
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2003, 03:56:03 PM »

OK...moratorium on this thread in interests of not having war break out.
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2003, 03:57:45 PM »

Well if Br Max wants to reply gently to me I am genuinely interested in his opinion and don't wish to be dogmatic or ideological.
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2003, 04:00:15 PM »

Sub-Deacon Peter...I am asking..not Br. Max, I...am asking, that WE, on OC.Net, not use ISLAMIC TACTICS in our Islamic Tactics thread to slide into an anti-semitic slant.....which we are veering toward....please.
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2003, 04:00:18 PM »

Why is that? Many of the Palestinians are our Christian brethren, though less than there were a few decades ago

Many more Israeli are our Christian Brethren!  I'm sorry but I cannot discuss this topic calmly at this momement.
I'll readdress the issue later.

Pax.

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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2003, 04:01:15 PM »

No problem Br Max. It is not my desire to upset or offend you at all.

God bless us all
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2003, 04:20:29 PM »

Since Islam is a lot older than Moronism shouldn't it be the other way? The Mormons are the Muslims of Western Christianity?  Smiley

I agree with you regarding the Palestinian conflict.

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On the blog this week (link is the sig at bottom of this posting): More on al-Islam, the Mormonism of the East. Basically you can see Muslims as the Mormons of Orthodoxy!

So what if Palestinians don't loooooove America? (It's not like they have the means to conquer and keep it.) Considering that the US has been propping up their oppressors for 50+ years can you blame them? All this heartbreak, injustice, blood shed and money spent over the only patch of land in those parts with no oil in it.

Like Iraq, it's not America's or Britain's war.
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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2003, 04:57:59 PM »

When I think of who I identify with in the middle east, it is the Christians, who have suffered at the hands of both Israelis and Muslims (whether they be Israeli Christians or Palestinians or what.) Christians in the middle east have suffered for being Dhimmi's (look at the middle east's shrinking Christian population, along with its shrinking Jewish population, minus Israel), and Christians in the Middle East have suffered for being Palestinians and Lebanese. It is not really about being pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel. Our duty is to our oppressed Christian brethren, who are oppressed by both Israelis and the Muslim majority.

A good book, which I have but have not read yet, is, "Islam and Dhimmitude," by Bat Ye'or.
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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2003, 06:24:24 PM »

Anastasios' sentiments towards Mr. Arafat, particularly for a pro-Palestinian, are proper and healthy ones, which I myself share as one within the same camp.  The man not only is a crook who does not benefit his own people, but was a player in the destruction of Lebanon during the war (the Maronites also committed atrocities, lest anyone think there was a clean side in that senseless episode of slaughter).  The trouble is, of course, that the more animosity is directed towards the P.A., the more support Hamas and other groups will obtain, which of course is what Sharon wants--more reasons and leeway to exercise his brutal, bloodthirsty, expansionist tactics.

As Serge says, though, this is not America's war.  This means I do not approve of military or financial support for the P.A., in addition to wishing the immediate halt of such aid to Israel.

Max will have to be reminded of the more subtle distinction between an Israeli and Palestinian, particularly in the eyes of the Palestinians, and it isn't the passport.  Freed of its nationalistic or statist definition (which the Israelis use to their advantage), the word 'Palestinian' simply denotes a native--regardless of faith and ethnicity, and as opposed to a colonising immigrant and his descendants--of the geographic territory of Palestine as it existed under the British mandate.  The implications are that the 'Israeli' Christians to whom Max presumably refers--the Arab Christians with Israeli passports--are every bit as Palestinian as their brothers in religion in the occupied territories (in Arab parlance, one never calls an Arab holding an Israeli passport an Israeli).  It doesn't matter a farthing that the small inkling of so-called Hebrew Christians (Jewish Israeli converts to Christianity) predictably hold Zionist sympathies or adhere to the ideology itself.

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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2004, 11:50:33 AM »

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a mosque in rome?  just another step closer to a one world religion

I don't follow. Do you suggest that islam is taking the world over? I'd say the race is neck and neck. It appears that there will be two world religions soon, and chances are...they will be diametrically opposed.

Oh, and 1 John says what the spirit of the anti-Christ consists of...it is denial of the Sonship of our Lord. That Jesus is not the Son of God is part of Islamic doctrine. Just food for thought. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2004, 12:07:30 PM »

It's also part of the liberal modernist creed slowly taking over many of the denominations as well. A majority of Anglican clergy in the UK don't believe Jesus is God.
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« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2004, 07:04:06 PM »

First off I would like to apologize for my short temper.  I've not been well or sleeping properly and as you can imagine this has taken it toll on my temperament.

Second - some of you are aware of this, but not all - I am part Jewish.  Through the maternal line.  
Third - I am many friends there in Israel right now.  Jews, gentiles, arabs - Jews and Christians.  They are working over there with the Israeli government helping to bring Jews out of countries where they are being oppressed and getting them settled there in the land of their - OUR - fathers.

I’m going to post 2 articles.  They will be a bit longer than I would normally post, but they are important in that they express some things that are being overlooked.

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« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2004, 07:05:03 PM »

Our Heroes and Theirs
By Jonathan Medved
CNSNews.com Commentary | September 15, 2003

Last Tuesday's terror in Jerusalem struck close to home. The boom of the blast at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim shook the windows of our house and left no doubt that we were hit again-this time in our own neighborhood.

Our son Yossi was on the phone with his brother Momo, asking when he would be back so they could watch another episode on DVD of 24, the addictive US series about terrorism. Momo was crossing Emek Refaim, which is two blocks from our house, and they both heard the blast.

Momo, 16, is a trained paramedic with Magen David Adom. He took out his plastic gloves which he keeps in his school backpack, and began to run the block to the cafe, to help with the injured. Yossi ran out the door with my wife Jane to go get Momo.

Momo was one of the first to arrive at the scene. As he described it later, it was a scene straight out of Dante or Eli Wiesel. Victims were screaming and strewn about. A group of bystanders was attempting to put out a fire that was consuming a man. Amputated legs and arms were lying in pools of blood. A mans head was in the middle of the street.

Momo acted according to the training he received this summer, in a course designed to teach him how to handle these kinds of events. As soon as the lead ambulance arrived he was told who to evacuate and he helped carry the injured on stretchers.

Within ten minutes it was over, and the amazing Israeli emergency medical teams had again acted with alacrity and professionalism. His mother and brother found him covered with victims blood and walked him home.

I was in the office when the blast hit, and was frantic with worry because I could not find anyone by phone. Finally I got a call from my son Yossi telling me that our family was okay and that we would meet at home.

Getting home and seeing your son's clothes splattered with blood of a terror attack, is a parental experience I will not forget. The relief of seeing him unhurt mixed together with the pain and outrage and grief of an attack so close to home.

After Momo showered, we together watched on TV the surreal scenes of our amazing and beautiful neighborhood hit, hurt and bleeding. Momo was curled up with his dog Lucy, hugging her and trying to regain some semblance of normalcy. A 16-year-old boy, having done his heroic work and having seen scenes that one should never see, trying to return to what's left of his adolescence.

We watched the scenes of jubilation in Gaza, with thousands of Palestinians taking to the streets in spontaeous celebration, delirious with joy at the "quality" attacks. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and others praised the "bravery" of the suicide bombers and shouted their satisfaction. He in particular mentioned the "great" Abu Shnab, the "engineer" of dozens of Israeli deaths whose death was now avenged.

I was struck by the contrast between the two societies. Our heroes were out on Emek Refaim fighting to save lives, to practice emergency medicine, to reduce casualties. Their heroes were sowing death and destruction; their engineering was the science of terror.

As the bright Jerusalem sun came up again over our neighborhood the next day, most of the outward signs of destruction had been washed away and cleaned up. Despite the continued terror alerts and torrent of news about yesterday's attacks, the children need to go to school, to get on with our lives.

But the news contained more bitter tidings that took your breath away. Among the dead in last night's blast was Dr. David Applebaum and his daughter Nava. Nava was due to be married tonight in a joyous wedding of 500 guests. David was a doctor of emergency medicine who was a fixture in Jerusalem's medical scene, having treated hundreds of terror victims. He was the founder of Terem, Jerusalem's private emergency medical clinic, and my best friends partner. He was a learned man, a kind man, a tzaddik. He was a true hero of Jerusalem.

I am letting Momo sleep in this morning. I tried to wake him but he said he needed some more sleep. His teacher from school just called to say that he heard from Momo's friends that he had a tough night and was among the first on the terror scene.

He suggested that after we attend this morning's funeral for Dr. Applebaum and his daughter that I take him to school, so he can be with his friends and talk about what has happened. My son and his friends - true heroes of Jerusalem.

***Los Angeles native Jonathan Medved is the founder of Israel Seed Partners, a venture capital fund, and resides with his family in Jerusalem.
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« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2004, 07:07:28 PM »

A Fake Palestinian State or a Real One?

By Emuna Elon
June 16, 2003    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   I have to admit my astonishment at the "New" peace proposal, the so-called "road map".


A 2 state solution? Ok., fine. Two states, one Israeli and the other palestinian, already exist side by side - on opposite sides of the Jordan River. The country of Jordan is a Palestinian state in every respect: more then 80% of the population is Palestinian, and its 90,000sq. km of territory are part of the original Palestine mandate, which the British partitioned back in the 1920s between Jews and Arabs.

There's no logic or justice in further partition of the 28,000 sq. kms remaining in Israel's hands to create a second Palestinian state, west of Jordan, at the expense of the small territory in which the Jewish people is trying to maintain its state in the midst of a hostile, Muslim Middle East.

Superficially, the internal Israeli debate is between those who agree to creating a Palestinian state west of the Jordan and those who oppose the idea. But the fact is that even the Israeli left doesn't agree to a real Palestinian state, armed and sovereign, a few minutes distance from Israel's main population centers. The most that even the most generous of Israeli leftist are willing to give the Palestinians - and the most that G.W. Bush's America is also willing to give - is nothing but a pseudo-state: two non-contiguous pieces of land, one in the Gaza Strip on the west of Israel and the other in Judea and Samaria in the east, in which a Palestinian entity would exist under constant outside supervision, without the right to sign international agreements and without any army of its own.

Why would the Palestinians agree to such a "state"? Why would they agree to end their 120-year war against Zionism in return for such a farce? Why should they give up their most sacred principle, the "right of return" of refugees from 1948 to their former homes within the Green Line? And where, in the proposed "state", would they be able to rehabilitate the 3 million members of their people who have been rotting for 55 years in refugee camps?

The answer to these question is the practical reason for the struggle of the Israeli right against the Oslo Accords, for its opposition to the Clinton guidelines, and for its current protests against Bush's "road map": The Palestinians, in fact, won't be satisfied with an insulting farce, won't give up on the "right of return", and won't stop the terror attacks after the creation of a pseudo-state that leaves the refugees in camps. And if their leaders accepted the Oslo, Clinton and Bush plans, they did so only as part of the PLO's phased strategy, which combines diplomatic tactics and armed struggle, and only in order to receive, as a first phase, international recognition of some sort of Palestinian sovereignty, fictitious as it might be, west of the Jordan.

The internal Israeli debate is really about how intelligent the Palestinians are and how serious they are. America apparently shares the left's evaluation that the Palestinians are stupid and primitive enough to be calmed by the Western illusion of national self-determination. The right, on the other hand, believes that Palestinians aren't only very smart, but also very Arab. While the West gives great importance to national self-determination, for Palestinians, is only a means toward liberating all the land that belongs to them according to the Koran, and so the "road map" to creating a Palestinian pseudo-state west of the Jordan can't lead to peace, but only to an escalation of terror until the final goal is achieved.

We don't need the United States to invent a destructive, illusory "vision" of a Palestinian state next to Israel. A real Palestinian state already exists next to Israel, on the east bank of the Jordan, and we definitely do need the help of the United States in order to institutionalize the connection of Palestinians living west of the Jordan to their state, whose capital is Amman. We definitely do need massive American involvement to settle the problem of the 1948 refugees, by creating an international program to rehabilitate them and to dismantle the shameful camps that Arab leaders would like to preserve as hothouses for terror and hatred. And there's no doubt we need the determination of the American victor in Iraq to make clear to the Palestinians that terror won't pay.

George W. Bush can make a difference or he can join the list of his predecessors who looked for the lost coin under the lamppost and didn't understand that it was waiting for them to find in another spot entirely.
 
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/MoreEng/ArticleJerReport16-6-03.html
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« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2004, 07:08:24 PM »

A list of truths

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.  

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital.  Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.  There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey at ''the edge'' - at the edge of the Temple mount.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost.  Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/thefacts.html
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« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2004, 07:09:09 PM »

More Facts

During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.


During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian cruse death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.


Before 1967, when Israel's occupation started, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.


Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)


Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli occupation.


Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.


This was not the only effect Israeli occupation had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.
 
http://www.middleeastfacts.com/thefacts2.html
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« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2004, 03:55:23 AM »

They are working over there with the Israeli government helping to bring Jews out of countries where they are being oppressed


....to the most dangerous country a Jew today would be mad enough to reside in.

Quote
and getting them settled there in the land of their - OUR - fathers.

This imperialist ambition is sadly quite true, as Israel's recently revealed plans for a new wave of settler expansionism in the occupied Golan Heights clearly illustrate.  Levantine Christians everywhere would no doubt  be jumping for joy at a chance to play a role in the noble and epic enterprise of land theft and colonisation for the greater glory of your Eretz Israel.  I'm afraid, however, that they have little to contribute as compared to the swindled American taxpayer, and would therefore direct you to those coffers in order to achieve more concrete results in your assault against the eighth commandment of the Decalogue.

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« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2004, 01:32:59 PM »

SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

Israel does not displace inorder to settle - they move people into UNOCCUPIED lands.  

As for land theft - get real.  According to original British mandate, Israel was to have ALL of what Israel currently controls AS WELL AS what is now the kingdom of Jordan.

You can hate Israel and the Jewish people all you like and choose muslims over the people God called the apple of his eye, I for one will not.
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« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2004, 02:51:56 PM »

>SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

And you're a teacher.  Bloody scary, if you ask me.

Re: Israel and Jews, I most certainly loathe the former, and steadfastly reject your poorly-flung charge of hate concerning the latter.

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« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2004, 04:31:37 PM »

>SamB: you are soooo clueless.  

And you're a teacher.  Bloody scary, if you ask me.

Yes I'm sure it wouyld scare you that there are still people in the education field who think and do research and refuse to trust the left and those who would rewrite history to suit their own needs.

Quote

Re: Israel and Jews, I most certainly loathe the former, and steadfastly reject your poorly-flung charge of hate concerning the latter.


Oh you do not hate Jews?  SO tell me, why do you oppose their returning to their ancient homeland?  It's not like they have not purchased that land with money, sweat, blood, and tears.  Would you have them confined to ghettos instead?
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« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2004, 04:53:04 PM »

Pity, SamB, you didn't have a teacher like that: One who could TEACH objectively. Then JUST possibly, you might be better informed, and not spouting a hate agenda.
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« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2004, 06:01:43 PM »

http://www.pmw.org.il/new/index.html
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« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2004, 06:34:05 PM »

Jews vs Muslims, with Christians oppressed by all...what would that look like as a mathematical equation?
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« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2004, 06:43:25 PM »

Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2004, 07:12:49 PM »


Pretty revealatory.
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« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2004, 07:33:11 PM »

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html
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« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2004, 10:38:35 PM »

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Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.

Jews view messianic judaism with suspicion and scorn. I remember listening to NPR (mea culpa!) a few years back, and some messianic jews who were appearing in a pan-Jewish parade were wearing hats that said, "He lives." The other jews were throwing rocks at them, and shouting "he's dead". It's just a sad fact of life...in the middle east, ideology is everything, and Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)
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« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2004, 10:40:25 PM »

Quote
Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

Not only there, but in most of the middle east.   Sad to say, but it is true.
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« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2004, 11:00:57 PM »

[ According to original British mandate, Israel was to have ALL of what Israel currently controls AS WELL AS what is now the kingdom of Jordan.]

Bro Max,
I really think that the Balfour Declaration called for Israel and Palestine to coexist as 2 nations.  The declaration makes no mention of the kingdom of Jordan or Trans-Jordan as it was known.  The Israelis also control and are settling people in the Golan something not mentioned in Balfour. Just a little historical correction.

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« Reply #63 on: January 03, 2004, 12:21:11 AM »

Quote
Caffeinator: Funny how my Christian friends are far from oppressed in Israel.

Jews view messianic judaism with suspicion and scorn. I remember listening to NPR (mea culpa!) a few years back, and some messianic jews who were appearing in a pan-Jewish parade were wearing hats that said, "He lives." The other jews were throwing rocks at them, and shouting "he's dead". It's just a sad fact of life...in the middle east, ideology is everything, and Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

We should all view messianic Judaism with suspicion and scorn.  Those that say they are Messianic Jews are in most cases either Judaizers, or gentiles pretending to be Jews or both.  Most often BOTH.  Any doubts?  Take a trip over to CF and visit the “Messianic forum.”  You will see “Messianic Jews rejecting the trinity and the Nicene creed living instead Pharasitical Judaism.

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« Reply #64 on: January 03, 2004, 12:23:36 AM »

Quote
Christians are the minority voice (in Israel, and Palestine.)

Not only there, but in most of the middle east.   Sad to say, but it is true.  

WHY?  Why is the Christian voice so small in lands where Christianity was born and first flourished?  ISLAM!!  Islamic Jihad.  Islamic Janissaries.  Islamic dhimmi.
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« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2004, 02:21:04 AM »

Bro Max,
I really think that the Balfour Declaration called for Israel and Palestine to coexist as 2 nations.  The declaration makes no mention of the kingdom of Jordan or Trans-Jordan as it was known.  The Israelis also control and are settling people in the Golan something not mentioned in Balfour. Just a little historical correction.

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NOt Balfore, but the UN called for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as two nations in relatively the same space.  Balfore called for a completely independant and unfettered Israel.
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« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2004, 04:09:41 AM »

Yes I'm sure it wouyld scare you that there are still people in the education field who think and do research

It's reassuring to know you're not numbered amongst them.  

Quote
and refuse to trust the left and those who would rewrite history to suit their own needs.

I certainly would hate to see the vapid and redundant tracts of predictable Israeli assertions and litanies that you let do your thinking be counted as serious study.  

But I'm afraid in your case, I am too late.

Quote
Oh you do not hate Jews?
 

I suggest you don't presume to play inquisitor with me.  Please take care to note again: I do not hate Jews.

Quote
SO tell me, why do you oppose their returning to their ancient homeland?
 

You're more of a leftist than you think; I oppose social engineering in all its forms.

Quote
It's not like they have not purchased that land with money, sweat, blood, and tears.
 

Yes, with those of their victims I have no doubt.

Quote
Would you have them confined to ghettos instead?

Kindly shove off.

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« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2004, 04:19:00 AM »

Pity, SamB, you didn't have a teacher like that: One who could TEACH objectively. Then JUST possibly, you might be better informed, and not spouting a hate agenda.

Dear Vicki,

Please note that I was brought up in the Levant, closer to the action and Middle Eastern saga than you might assume.  Rather than cheerleading and accusing me of hate and ignorance, perhaps you should verse yourself a little more in the history of this conflict.  

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« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2004, 04:38:35 AM »

Need I remind everyone here that the Church of Jerusalem is called the the Church of Jerusalem and all Palestine?  I think the name, Palestine has been around longer than many think.  Just because the Jews have always been there, doesn't mean we should change the name of the Orthodox Church in that area.  Israel is God's people; not just the land of the Jews.
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« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2004, 08:25:03 AM »

I seem to remember in a previous thread on the Balkans tempers rose a bit.  Someone rightly pointed out that neither side was entirely blameless and the history of the Balkans was very complicated.  I would suggest the same thing as far as the Middle East goes.  I think that one could point fingers at both sides as well as point fingers at the Christian govt's of the west who set all this in motion.

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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2004, 02:06:00 PM »

SAM:  You cannot refute any point I have made so you choose instead to attack my person?  How enlightened of you. I'm glad to see that the fine art of AD HOMINEM attacks has not been lost.

NOW, if you are quite finished attacking ME, why not deal with the issue at hand - Do the Jews have the right to the land that was first given to them by God, second bought through blood sweat, tears and money? Tell me - OH ENLIGHTENED ONE - what would you have done instead?
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2004, 02:09:11 PM »

Carpo: of course no one is an innocent in this issue, it would be foolish to pretend otherwise.  But when Israel has time and again tried to work WITH the truculent and belligerent arabs to settle this issue and have peace, the base nature of the sons of Ishmael time and again rears its ugly head.
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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2004, 02:26:08 PM »

Personally, I don't believe that the Jews deserve Israel anymore than anyone else.   Menachem Begin and his lot were terrorists; no different that Arafat and his lot.

Max -- I am not trying to pick a fight, but how can you fault the Palestinians when Menachem Begin and his terrorists used similar tactics in their fight for the independence of Israel? Like when they blew up the King David Hotel in July of 1946.

Concerning the King David terrorist act, here is an article from the Christian Sciene Monitor:


---

by Scott Perterson
The Christian Science Monitor
A M M A N, Jordan, Aug. 9

Just after the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, a call was placed to a newspaper in Cairo to claim responsibility.

Playing out a script well rehearsed in the Mideast for decades, the caller said he was from the Liberation Army of the Islaamic Sanctuaries, a previously unheard of group.

Even the journalist who took the call doubts it was genuine, and except for a threat received from Egypt's Islamic Jihad and published by the pan-Arab newspaper Al-Hayat investigators have few clues yet, or even a sense that the bombings were the work of Mideast extremists.

State Dept.: 30,000 Threats a Year But the fact that terrorist attacks are often accompanied by multiple claims of responsibility points to the reason terror continues to be an attractive weapon for those who use it: Their message is heard around the world.

For more than half a century, most terrorists originated in the Mideast. Some did it for national redemption, others for revenge, and still others against a panoply of enemies real or imagined. Their tactics and targets have evolved as the world learns how to deal with them. In recent years, terrorism has generally declined, although the threat against Americans remains serious.

The US State Department says it receives 30,000 threats a year and takes every one seriously. The FBI database starting point for suspects is reported to include 200,000 individuals and 3,000 groups.

One of the precedents in the Middle East was set in British-run Palestine in the late 1930s and early 1940s, when the Zionist terrorist groups Irgun, Stern, and Haganah attacked British and Palestinian targets. The breakthrough came with the spectacular destruction in July 1946 less than two years before Israel was declared a state of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

This was the impenetrable fortress, the British military and civilian headquarters, wrapped in steel doors and barbed wire and constantly guarded. When milk churns packed with high explosives in the basement sheared the building in two, the message was sent around the world that a new nation was about to be born.

Seed Sowed for Modern Terrorism
Menachem Begin, who masterminded the King David attack, and later prime minister of Israel, described in his book The Revolt the thinking behind such acts of terrorists. There are times when everything in you cries out: your very self-respect as a human being lies in your resistance to evil, Mr. Begin wrote. Then, playing on Descartes words, he added: We fight, therefore we are.

But the creation of Israel left a losing side too. To the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians dispossessed of their land in 1948, that event is still called al Nakbah, the Catastrophe. It sowed the seed for modern terrorism, and for future attempts at more and more spectacular attacks that seek to grab the worlds attention.

That lesson was learned in the late 1960s and 1970s by Palestinian guerrillas, who recognized the propaganda value of making their issue known through violence. First gathered in 1955 for cross-border attacks into Israel as fedayeen (those who sacrifice themselves), Palestinian guerrillas made their global breakthrough in 1972 at the Olympic Games in Munich, Germany.

A handful of members of the Black September group so named after the brutal crushing and expulsion of Palestinian forces from Jordan by King Hussein in September 1970 broke into the Israeli team rooms and took Jewish athletes hostage.

King David Lesson Learned
After a drawn-out saga that included helicoptering to a waiting airplane, all but three of the guerrillas were killed along with all of the hostages. A Palestinian spokesman, quoted by British journalist David Hirst in his book The Gun and the Olive Branch (1977), claimed that A bomb in the White House, a mine in the Vatican ... could not have echoed through the consciousness of every man in the world like the operation of Munich.... It was like painting the name of Palestine on the top of a mountain that can be seen from the four corners of the earth.

The King David lesson had been learned and put into practice, and galvanized Palestinian warriors. The classic definition of Black September, as noted by Mr. Hirst, holds true of terrorists today, for whom it is more of a calling than a state of mind.

As one youth described terrorism in Mr. Hirsts book: It cannot be pinpointed, tracked down, or crushed. It has no name, no flag, no slogans, headquarters, or base. It requires only men who have the determination to fight and succeed and the courage to die.

Americans Become Targets
The 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran galvanized Islamic extremists, especially of the minority Shia sect scattered throughout the Islamic world, and in southern Lebanon, when Ayatollah Khomeini demanded the export of the revolution. The example was put forth: 52 Americans were taken hostage and held 444 days.

Americans became targets, and in 1983 the US Marines barracks in Beirut were bombed, leaving 241 dead. American troops soon pulled out. The bombers likely got what they wanted.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union at the turn of the decade, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and the subsequent Arab-Israeli peace process, many Middle East groups that had carried out terrorist attacks either disappeared or lay low.

But as the attacks against the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania attest, the King David lesson has not been forgotten. Who did the attacks in Kenya and Tanzania? Fingers point in many directions. High on the list of backers is multimillionaire Saudi exile Osama bin Laden, who lives in Afghanistan and earlier this year vowed to wage a Holy War against American military and civilian targets.



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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2004, 02:35:56 PM »

sorry if I cannot trust a cultic source like the Christian science monitor.
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« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2004, 02:38:28 PM »

sorry if I cannot trust a cultic source like the Christian science monitor.

That's fine Max (they are too liberal for my taste too), but just do a google search and read one of the articles returned.

Terrorism is terrorism. Do you agree with the killing of innocents by the Jews as a tool to gain back what was given to them by God?
If you do, then you can't fault the Palestinians fro doing the same.


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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2004, 02:47:17 PM »

Tom: Let's get our heads out of the internet for a second and look at things from a human POV.  

NOW, lets look at a few simple questions:

First - When did Israel become a nation?
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« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2004, 02:55:48 PM »

Do you mean a nation state or an ethnic and cultural group?

The Kurds are a nation, in the sense of a self-conscious people, but they are not a nation state.
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« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2004, 03:09:55 PM »

I am not going to get into an argument about this -- it is not really that important to me. My POV is that Israel deserves nothing and that they have no more right to that patch of land than the Palestinians.
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« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2004, 03:11:13 PM »

peterfarrington: Very good point.  But ultimately one that makes little difference since they pretty much happened at the same time. Smiley   Yes, the nation of Israel (as a geo-political entity) disappeared from the map for a while, but then - so did the nation of Poland.
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« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2004, 03:14:07 PM »

Tom: they of course have more of a right to that land.  One it was given them by God, 2 the have worked it so as to make it prosper. They have made the dessert bloom. 3 They have stayed and faught for it.  Lets not forget that these much celebrated palestinian refugees became refugees in the firstplace because their Arab leaders promised them that if they left Israel, Israel would be pushed into the sea.
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2004, 03:35:37 PM »

Hiya Br Max. Not arguing against you but surely the nation state of Israel ceased to exist 1933 years ago, in fact even that state was a Roman province and not an independent nation state, and the modern nation state of Israel is entirely that, a modern state.

This doesn't mean that the modern state of Israel should not exist. I am sure there is a real justification for a modern Kurdish nation state as well. But in the UK if the Cornish folk in the UK manage to restore a Cornish state it will be a modern construct. It may well have its own justification but it cannot simply claim to be in continuity with the independent Cornish state which disappeared well over 1000 years ago.

As a genuine question, I am English and would probably fight to preserve the state of England and the United Kingdom. But essentially I am an Orthodox Christian and that matters much more to me. I can be Orthodox in many different circumstances. Why is it necessary that there be a state of Israel. There is no persecution of Jewish folk in the UK, and most of the Jewish folk I know have not been particularly religious. Why can Jewish people not be part of a variety of cultures and peoples? If they are fighting for a secular state then why should they have that right above any other group that wants its own piece of land. If they are fighting for the free exercise of their religion then how are they different from my own coreligionists who have suffered for 1500 years in the exercise of their faith without seeking to create their own state by force?

On what basis is Israel necessary? I don't suggest that now it exists it should cease to exist. But that is the point. History changes everything. We can't choose some point in time and insist it has some international and universal applicability.

My own land here has been the Celtic province of the Cantii, the Roman province of Brittania, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of the Kentware, then part of the Kingdom of Wessex and then England and now the United Kingdom. I don't see how it could be appropriate to say that the 'real' Kent is one of these early kingdoms and seek to 'restore' it in some fashion by force. What ever I restored would be a modern construct.

How is a modern Israel any different from any other conflict over a piece of land? When do any of us have a 'right' to a piece of land? And the argument that the modern Israelites are the same as the Israel of promise is disputed by many churches and Christians.

How can it be justified, as an example, for a group of prosperous folk of Jewish ethnic origin living safely in the UK to travel to the modern state of Israel, take up arms, and settle on disputed land? How is that different from me turning up somewhere in the US, claiming the US as UK property, which it is if we look historically, and then forcing a settlement?

I'm a little confused, quite willing to be persuaded, and not at all anti-Jewish or even anti-Israel as a matter of political dogma.
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2004, 04:26:34 PM »

I heard somewhere (actually, from a pro-Israel source) that the first suicide bomber in Israel (possibly in all history) was a Jew, attacking Arabs.

As far as viewing the Messianic Jews with suspicion and scorn, well, once Christians on the whole viewed Jews with suspicion and scorn. But now we're just to limit it to Jewish Christians? (Everything you've said about messianic Jews has been said about Jews in general.)

My understanding is that Messianic Jews were evangelicals with mosaic law. Didn't know they were Judaizers. But I will research this further and will not use the forum at CF as the basis for my verdict.
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2004, 04:35:30 PM »

http://mjaa.org/

From their Statement of Faith, they appear to be evangelicals with Jewish customs. At cursory glance, they hardly seem like judaizers.
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2004, 04:40:57 PM »

Caffeinator: you will find most Jewish believers do not become "Messianic’s" and that most "Messianic’s" are in truth gentiles - Baptists specifically.
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2004, 04:41:38 PM »

Peter: as far as the arabs are concerned, every INCH of land that is not held by Muslims is disputed land.  Never mind that no one lives on that land - never mind that the land has been legally acquired - never mind that the arabs forfeited their rights to that land when (despite Israeli requests that they STAY and work TOGETHER to build a nation) they up and left.
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« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2004, 04:59:19 PM »

I'm not disputing that. In my own home town only 130 or so years ago every time the Roman Catholics wanted to purchase land - quite legally - to establish a Church they always found that it had been bought up by some rich Protestant.

And Northern Ireland is replete with disputes over land.

And the whole world is replete with arguments about land. Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc etc.

My question is why the modern secular state of Israel is so important? I understand your interest, it is perfectly understandable. And I do sympathise with those who have made it their home. I have no political agenda in wishing Israel to cease to exist.

But why should I judge Israel differently to any other land dispute? I would object if some very rich French people, or Muslims, started buying up land in Kent, however legally, and then built housing estates, quite legally and in line with planning regulations, and then quite legally started a French or Muslim, which is more likely, colony in the middle of my county.

That is not the same as Israel, I'm not saying that. But I am saying that legally buying up unused land isn't necessarily neutral. Nor is making it flourish, or fighting for it. If a load of Muslims started buying land in Kent, making it flourish and then fighting to defend it I would be making my objections to its presence known.

You say that the Arabs lost their right to the land when they left it, but surely this also applies to Israelis only the time scale is thousands of years of absence rather than a few decades.

I'm really not being argumentative but I find your own argument in defence of the modern state of Israel to be naturally rather more passionate than convincing.
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« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2004, 05:10:44 PM »


As a genuine question, I am English and would probably fight to preserve the state of England and the United Kingdom. But essentially I am an Orthodox Christian and that matters much more to me. I can be Orthodox in many different circumstances. Why is it necessary that there be a state of Israel. There is no persecution of Jewish folk in the UK, and most of the Jewish folk I know have not been particularly religious. Why can Jewish people not be part of a variety of cultures and peoples? If they are fighting for a secular state then why should they have that right above any other group that wants its own piece of land. If they are fighting for the free exercise of their religion then how are they different from my own coreligionists who have suffered for 1500 years in the exercise of their faith without seeking to create their own state by force?

On what basis is Israel necessary? I don't suggest that now it exists it should cease to exist. But that is the point. History changes everything. We can't choose some point in time and insist it has some international and universal applicability.

I'm a little confused, quite willing to be persuaded, and not at all anti-Jewish or even anti-Israel as a matter of political dogma.


Sub-Deacon Peter....

Although you addressed this to Brother Max, concerning Israel, it immediately made me think of something else I would like to call the board's attention to, and that perhaps will strengthen the point Br. Max is making for a State of Israel being vital.  

Once upon a time, not too long ago, millions of Greeks lived in the Pontos region of Asia Minor, where they had for 3000 years.  They kept their own religion, their own language, and their own customs, until the Muslim Turks decided on genocide. The death march killed about a million...alll the villages were utterly destroyed. Scarcely a ripple made in internalional politics made Hitler decided, yes, there is written proof this was part of his decision making, that the international community wouldn't much care then if he wiped out the Jews...as there hadn't been much outcry to the Pontic Greeks being wiped out.

Now, had these very localized millions of Greeks had SOVEREIGNTY, the Turkish situation would have been an invasion, an act of WAR...the world would have responded.  Instead....a silent genocide that led to another.

Think about it.
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« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2004, 05:43:34 PM »

Yes, this happened to the Armenians in Turkey as well.

But the situation seems to me to be different wrt Israel. (Remember I am not dogmatic on this).

It does not seem likely to me that Jews, religious or secular, would be persecuted in modern America or Britain. In fact we could name a great many famous Jews who have made their homes and their names in the Uk and the USA. Why then should we support the introduction of more and more Jews to an already troubled region when they are not in danger in the US or the UK or a great many other nations.

Roman Catholics have been terribly persecuted in the UK over the past centuries, but they have not sought to establish a Roman Catholic state elsewhere. My own Coptic Orthodox have been terribly persecuted but they do not seek a Coptic state.

This is where I am a bit confused. Why does the introduction of more and more folk from various lands into a troubled situation not add to the likely difficulties which Jews will face?

The Turks killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians, the Soviets killed millions of Christians. The 20th century was full of such horrors. The Rwandan genocide happened just a few years ago. Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia.

Where was the ripple about the Armenian genocide?

The Pontus situation was different. They had lived their 3000 years. The large scale presence of Jews in Palestine is a new phenomena. 2000 years ago my forebears came from northern Germany. What legitimacy would there be for me and my stalwart Engliscan Gesithas to set up an Englisc state in Northern Germany?

It is part of the way of the world that people get treated terribly and it often doesn't cause a ripple. That's shameful but I don't think it has anything to do with sovereignty. When the British took over India where were the ripples? Or South Africa, or any number of sovereign states with governments and borders. Ripples only happen when there is political capital in rippling.

If the state of Israel is vital then so is one for the Kurds, the Cornish, the Basques, and any number of groups threatened with extinction.

Here is my confusion. If Judaism is a religion then surely it does not require a state, and if it is a political agenda then it should be judged like any other political agenda?
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« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2004, 05:45:52 PM »

Peter: quite simply, the nation of Israel plays a role in prophesy.
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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2004, 05:48:43 PM »

But only in your opinion, not in mine. I used to be a big fan of Hal Lindsey, but not any more.

The modern nation state of Israel is not the same as the cultural/social/religious community anyhow.
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« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2004, 05:54:47 PM »

Sokay peter you can have another opinion if you like.  I will always stand with Israel who at least honour the same God as we than with hate mongering Muslims.  I will stand with Israels right to defend themselves against murderers and terrorist.  I will stand with them and their right to live free.
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« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2004, 05:55:34 PM »

For too long and in too many places terrible things have been done to Jews in the name of Christ.  The least we can do is allow them a homeland.
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« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2004, 06:06:55 PM »

I don't disagree about the first bit, but what of every other persecuted group? What of every other minority overwhelmed by a more dominant culture? Does everyone deserve their own political state?
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« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2004, 06:09:10 PM »

name me please one other people who have suffered similarly?
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« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2004, 06:18:40 PM »

Peter: quite simply, the nation of Israel plays a role in prophesy.

Wow. I thought you were Catholic, not an evangelical Protestant! :smiley1:
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« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2004, 06:19:52 PM »

The Copts in Egypt have suffered 1500 years of persecution. The Armenians and Syrians in Turkey have been almost wiped out in the last 100 years. Roman Catholics in Britain faced 300 years of persecution and death. The Kurds. Racism against black folk. Native Americans. Tasmanian Aborigines. Any non-Communists in the Soviet Union. Any non-nazis in Nazi Germany. The Cathari.

It's not a competition.

Are Jewish folk as a community at risk in the UK and USA and many other countries?

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« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2004, 06:21:31 PM »

Sub-Deacon Peter:

The rest of the world is NOT Great Britain. Great Britain has historically been kind to Jewish refugees fleeing persecution, we know this.  

HOWEVER: The rest of Europe has not.  The rest of Europe often still IS not. The rest of Europe is quite remarkably racist at times. These very modern times. I brought up the Pontic Greek situation simply to point out that had that religious and ethnic community had sovereignty, it would not have happened.  The modern world recognized that had there been a governement to protest these acts on behalf of its citizens, those who identified themselves as Jewish but because there was, of course at the time NO HOMELAND, who had no government to speak for them in the national forum, the Holocaust may have been averted.  Remember, the modern State of Israel was created not last week, but shortly after WWII, when there MOST CERTAINLY was anti-semitic feeling all over Europe, the world, and even, Great Britain.  

Is it any wonder, then, that those who had lost most or all of their family members to camps or other persecutions JUMPED at the chance to settle in the Bibilical lands promised to them by God once offered to them by the rest of the world? The chance to live in a WHOLE country that practiced Judaism! Where no one looked at them funny! ABSOLUTELY! You think it odd that people would give up the prosperity of Great Britain for the hardship of Israel...Think of it as the comforts of the secular world for sacrifices of the religious.  

I grew up in a very large Jewish community...many firends would spend summers in Israel working on a kibbutz....they gew greatly in their faith by living in a community composed entirely or religious people....as opposed to a secular society.  Now, there are MANY MANY secularists in Israel, don't get me wrong, Iwas speaking only of that work study thing...But that was how the situation was viewed among the settlers after WWII. Further, there were the ANTI-Semites encouragingthis, too....give them a home of their own, and get them out of Europe....but that is something else.

Fact is, they felt that united, as a state, with borders and a world voice, they could protect both themselves, living there, and the Jews living in other countries.

Given that synagogues still need police guards on the High Holidays in quiet American cities, I doubt very much the world is so free of anti-semitism as you think.

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« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2004, 06:25:17 PM »

Peter: The Jews have faced pogroms, forced conversions, genocide, murder and abuse for nearly 2000 years.  From who?  EVERYONE.  

I'm not downplaying the sufferings of other communities, but there is a difference between those being persecuted by the followers of Satan and those being persecuted by those who are the followers of Christ.  It’s one thing to face persecution at the hands of Muslims for refusing to deny God, it is quite another to face persecution at the hands of Christians for a perceived evil.
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« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2004, 06:32:16 PM »

I don't think it odd that the modern state of Israel came into existence. Would I think it odd if the defenders of Kernewek culture leapt at the chance of a modern Kernow even when the issues are not at all as serious as those faced by 20th century Jews.

But I am not convinced that the issues of persecution and of Biblical prophecy equal a necessity for the state of Israel to have been erected.

Roman Catholics have suffered persecution in Great Britain for hundreds of years. As much as Jews. Roman Catholic churches get vandalised and torched in the UK still in some places. This shows that there are bigots not that a modern state of Israel can do what it likes. It only takes a handful of people to threaten a synagogue or a church. I would have thought that the US was a prime example of a state where Jews were entirely at home and had great power and influence.

I would have thought there was a great deal more racism than anti-semitism in the US.

My issue, and that of many other folk I guess, is that it is not the existence of the state of Israel that is the issue but the manner in which it seems to treat those around it. I am sure I do not understand the circumstances but the modern secular state seems to use many of the same methods as used by the enemies of Jews through the centuries.
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« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2004, 06:42:03 PM »

Pardon, Sub-Deacon, but you miss the point: The persecution of Catholics in MODERN times 1940 on....didn't KILL over 6, million, systematically.

And yes, modern states run by modern governments use modern means of diplomacy, and when that fails, modern means of warfare to protect their borders.  

Also, there are suicidal nutters in everyones religious persuasion: Israeli, Palestinain, and e-cafe. Pretty soon THEY will start blowing themselves up.

You never answered me....Was the Terry Pratchett book you received "Monstrous Regiment?"
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« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2004, 06:43:27 PM »

Those who have committed atrocities are not Christians. And the Copts actually suffered persecution from the Eastern Orthodox empire until the Arab conquest. All who commit atrocities are followers of Satan.

Have all Jews in all places suffered these things?  Have there not been times in many and most societies where they have played an important part. I don't think I can agree with an analysis which takes persecution in different times and places and different societies and adds it up to a perpetual persecution.

If we follow this methodology then surely we could say that other groups have always been persecuted by everyone. Why was Disraeli prime-minister of Great Britain, why was Henry Kissinger a world statesman.

I'm not dismissing the presence of the state as an historic fact but there are other cultures which have and continue to suffer persecution. Why should they not have their own state. And once more it is the behaviour of the state, not its existence which causes most concern.
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« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2004, 06:45:26 PM »

Pardon, Sub-Deacon, but you miss the point: The persecution of Catholics in MODERN times 1940 on....didn't KILL over 6, million, systematically.

But they were not killed by Arabs - they were killed by the Nazis. So Israel should have been recreated in East Germany. Why should the people of Palestine be punished for the sins of the Nazis?
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« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2004, 06:48:26 PM »

Because that was historically the lands that were theirs, Biblically.  Hard luck on someone, no matter where you carve the land out, but carve it out of the land God promised them.
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« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2004, 06:52:47 PM »

Yes it was Monstrous Regiment, but I haven't got into it yet.

Stalin did kill millions of Orthodox. And a million Armenians were killed in Turkey, virtually the whole population. Both of these genocides were systematic. Stalin would have happily wiped out all Christians, all Jews, all opponents. Turkey would have happily wiped out all Armenians, and the state of the Phanar shows its great support for Turks of Greek ethnicity.

I think I am trying to say that historical connection with Palestine is invalid because I and my fellow Englisc have a historical connection with Northern Germany. Such a connection provides no rights in the present, especially after 2000 years. And that many other people do suffer persecution and have been wiped out by their enemies or are in constant threat of being wiped out, whereas even without the state of Israel that would not have happened to the Jews who have large communities which are not now facing the threat that Kurds do, as an example.

That the Jews wanted a modern state is understandable, that doesn't mean it was right. It would have been better had Britain done more to prevent the Jewish Holocaust and welcome more Jewish refugees. This has nothing to do with statehood and everything to do with shameful self interest. The Armenians in Turkey were of no interest. If they had their own state in the region it would have been of no interest.

Look at Rwanda.
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« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2004, 06:55:43 PM »

Is this thread starting to resemble "The Late Great Planet Earth" to anybody else?
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« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2004, 06:56:38 PM »

Because that was historically the lands that were theirs, Biblically.  Hard luck on someone, no matter where you carve the land out, but carve it out of the land God promised them.

2000 years mean it isn't theirs at all. Germany doesn't belong to me. Are we supposed to look at the settlement patterns of the time of Christ and ship everyone back East. By such logic the population of the US should all go home and leave the US to the Native Americans.

I don't believe that the promised land belongs to a secular state of Israel. I don't believe the prophecies refer to a modern state of Israel at all. That's modern Protestant thinking not Orthodoxy.

I'd not want the state of Israel destroyed. I wish that they had secure borders and lived at peace with their neighbours, whose faults I hope I recognise. But the state of Israel is not biblical Israel.
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« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2004, 07:00:09 PM »

Is this thread starting to resemble "The Late Great Planet Earth" to anybody else?

I am not anti-semite. I am even pro-Israel. I just don't believe the land belongs to them by any right save the fact that they have established themselves there. Now they need to live with their neighbours and their neighbours need to live with them. Talking about prophecy seems, from some folk not on this forum, to be used as an excuse for any behaviour on the part of the political leaders of the modern secular state of Israel.

Indeed is it not the case that many religious Jews in Europe reject the modern state of Israel. I think I recall an interview on radio 4 with a religious group which said that the establishment of the state was counter to the will of God.
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« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2004, 07:07:12 PM »

Ok. I go with that. If I was setting up a state I'd put it there. But that isn't the argument usually used is it? In fact there are those who go further back in time and say that the modern state should take control of all the land under the control of the ancient state at its height.

I don't deny the legitimate existence of Israel. I just find some of the arguments used by others to justify what seem totalitarian measures used by the political state to be weak.

I can go through the totalitarian measures being introduced by my own government to balance the argument. I'm not saying that Israel is better or worse than any other state. Just that I find some actions to be difficult to justify and seemingly self-defeating int terms of providing security etc. Even the states closest allies are saying this.
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« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2004, 07:09:07 PM »

Sub-deacon

[The Copts in Egypt have suffered 1500 years of persecution. The Armenians and Syrians in Turkey have been almost wiped out in the last 100 years. Roman Catholics in Britain faced 300 years of persecution and death. The Kurds. Racism against black folk. Native Americans. Tasmanian Aborigines. Any non-Communists in the Soviet Union. Any non-nazis in Nazi Germany. The Cathari.

It's not a competition.]

I agree it's not a competition but you failed to mention the Irish?  A little English guilt?

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« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2004, 07:15:23 PM »

Sub Deacon: Answer my question about the Pratchett book
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« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2004, 07:33:08 PM »

Not at all. I'll mention anyone. I did mention Roman Catholics. There are Irish Protestants. It's a cultural thing not an ethnic thing.

But it did seem as intractable as the Israeli/Arab conflict and yet things have changed remarkably in a few years of activity.

And I did mention the book Vicki. You missed the sentence. Yes I have Monstrous Regiment. Haven't read it yet.

Off to bed now. See you all later.
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« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2004, 07:50:36 PM »

Peter: There is one large difference between the persecution of Catholics in England and the persecution of Jews.  English Catholics were still ethnically English and could easily convert.  Jews, on the other hand, are still ethnically and evidentiarily Jews even if they do convert.  One need only look to the Jewish converts in Spain under the inquisition.  SURE there were those Jews who only made surface conversions, but what of those Jews who had in truth converted and were still persecuted by their neighbors by being brought before the inquisition?
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« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2004, 08:11:37 PM »

Sub-Deacon Peter:  It is odd how such an extremely PROTESTANT concept of the end times has crept into some Orthodox circles.  Especially since such good (i.e. Orthodox) material is now avilable in English Huh
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« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2004, 09:36:33 PM »

Speaking of hate here, I know this is a little off-topic at the moment (though it would have been on-topic earlier) I just gotta love all the love flowing through these boards about the French. I myself am of French origin (and Normandais as well), and I harbour a great joy in my french heritage. I find it despicable the way some people speak of my ancestors and my "old-country", I am sure nobody here likes being told idiotic things like "all Russians do is drink vodka, Poles are dumb, Greeks are (I wont even mention what people say here, it's so disgusting), etc." Well, I get the same feeling being told apparently that my ancestors were a bunch of surrender-monkeys or whatnot.

It's called respect; whether for Palestinians or Israelis, French or Americans (or would you prefer "Yankee-doodle-dandy"? I know I wouldn't). And also, we need some tolerance of each others opinions: I am somewhat of what you may call an "opponent of Israel's existence as a secular state," but I would at least expect to be treated with some level of dignity by my Christian brethren. If we cannot master respect and tolerance, I sure as heck don't know how we'll ever even come close to knowing Christ's love, much less being an instrument of it.

peace,

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p.s. sorry for this being my first post, I assure you I can actually be an enjoyable person Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2004, 09:58:36 PM »

Quote
Poles are dumb

Truer words have never been spoken...
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« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2004, 10:00:34 PM »

[Well, I get the same feeling being told apparently that my ancestors were a bunch of surrender-monkeys or whatnot.]

If they do they need to brush up on their history.  "Surrender monkeys"Huh?  Charles Martel, St Louis, Turenne, Conde, Foch, Sarsfield, Lafayette, DeGaulle, LeClerc, and (even though he was Corsican) yes Napoleon.  Not a surrender monkey in the bunch and all good RC boys (well maybe not the last one so much).  Brush up on your history people.

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« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2004, 10:43:49 PM »

It is odd how such an extremely PROTESTANT concept of the end times has crept into some Orthodox circles.  Especially since such good (i.e. Orthodox) material is now avilable in English Huh

Quite odd.  I believe that the teaching of the Orthodox Church is that the Church is Israel.  The Church is the promise of God to mankind.
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« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2004, 12:13:09 AM »

Here's a thought-provoking article by Robert Sungenis on this subject matter. Regardless of what you think of him, i think he's right on the money here. Comments?

Christian Zionism: A Contradiction in Terms

Anyone who has been watching any of the major news networks in recent months has been subjected to a barrage of propaganda from so-called Christian Zionists, that is, Christians who support the territorial claims of the State of Israel. News programs that would ordinarily have little use for the opinions of men like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are suddenly very interested to hear what these men have to say about American foreign policy.

Robertson, Falwell, and other Christian Zionists in effect suggest that unswerving support for some of the most aggressive Israeli politicians is the only legitimate position for Bible-believing Christians. Yet their position constitutes an utter novelty in the history of Christian thought, and it is long past due for Christian Zionism to be refuted, from a traditional Christian perspective, once and for all.

Zionism itself was born in the late 19th Century. Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl played an especially important role in spreading the idea throughout Europe, consolidating numerous strains of Zionist thought into a single political program. As Herzl put it in his influential book Der Judenstaat [The Jewish State] (1896), "Let the sovereignty be granted us over a portion of the globe large enough to satisfy the rightful requirements of a nation; the rest we shall manage for ourselves." He specifically pointed to Palestine as the "historic homeland" of the Jews.

At first, Palestine was not the exclusive site where Zionists supposed that their plans would be realized (though by the early years of the 20th Century Palestine had become well established as the center of Zionist efforts), and even the idea of establishing a Jewish state as opposed to the lesser goal of a Jewish homeland was not necessarily in the minds of some Zionists as the 20th Century progressed. The Balfour Declaration, the British Government’s crucial 1917 statement in favor of Zionism, limited itself to calling for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Ultimately, of course, it was precisely a Jewish state in Palestine that the Zionist movement succeeded in erecting when, on the heels of the United Nations partition plan proposed in 1947, the new state of Israel declared its independence in June 1948.

Among the Old Testament verses cited most frequently on behalf of Zionism is God’s promise in Genesis: "That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates ... And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Canaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God" (Gen. 15:18, 17:Cool. Since God promised this land to the Jews, the Christian Zionist contends, His will is done when human effort hastens their return.

This is, however, at best a half truth. From the time Israel worshiped the golden calf and God nearly destroyed them; (Ex. 32-33) to the time they complained of manna and God caused a plague among them; (Num. 11) to the bad report of the spies of Canaan which God punished by having them wander in the desert for forty years; (Num. 13) to the wish to go back to Egypt and Korah’s rebellion, (Num. 14, 16) and about a dozen other such incidents, the land of Canaan was not given to them because of their own human effort. In fact, Deut. 9:5 indicates that Israel was so sinful during their trek through the desert that the only reason God would reluctantly give them the land of Canaan was due to the unbreakable oath He had made with Abraham (which oath Abraham received for his obedience in offering Isaac as a sacrifice to God).

This fact is confirmed by examining the numbers. According to the census in Num. 2:32, there were 603,550 men who came out of Egypt, not including the Levites, or the women and children. Out of those, only two men were allowed to enter the land of Canaan, Joshua and Caleb. Six hundred years later things were not much better. God tells Elijah that only 7,000 Israelites had not bowed the knee to the false god Baal, out of a nation of approximately 10 million -- a mere .07% of the people.

In addition, much in the Old Testament indicates that God has, indeed, fulfilled the promise of land to Israel. Not only did He fulfill it, but the same Scriptures are also quite adamant that God did so in every minute detail that He promised to Abraham. Notice how the following passages make a point of saying that God did everything He promised regarding the land.


Joshua 21:43-45: Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which He swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as He had sworn to their fathers; not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass.

1 Kings 8:56: Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised; not one word has failed of all His good promise, which He uttered by Moses His servant.

Nehemiah 9:7-8: Thou art the LORD, the God who didst choose Abram and bring him forth out of Ur of the Chaldeans and give him the name Abraham; and Thou didst find his heart faithful before Thee, and didst make with him the covenant to give to his descendants the land of the Canaan- ite, the Hittite, the Amorite, the Perizzite, the Jebusite, and the Girgashite; and Thou hast fulfilled Thy promise, for Thou art righteous. (RSV)
Notice especially in the last line of Nehemiah 9:8 that God had fulfilled the promise of land He made to Abraham based on the fact that He is "righteous." In other words, it is a matter of preserving God’s integrity that the promise of land to Israel has already been fulfilled. Thus to claim that the promises have not been fulfilled and that we are still waiting for God to act upon them is to accuse God of dishonesty.

Moreover, the above passages took place at completely different times. Joshua occurs in the 15th Century B.C.; 1 Kings occurs in the 10th Century; Nehemiah in the 5th Century. Thus, we have the whole history of Israel represented, and they all insist on the same message -- God has already done His work regarding the land, and there is no more promise to fulfill. The curious are unlikely to find much if any commentary on these passages coming from Christian Zionists. The reason is obvious: such passages fly in the face of the prediction Christian Zionists maintain for a revival of national Israel based on the promises of land to Abraham.

As for whether Israel could keep the land that God gave them, Deut. 28:62-68 is clear that the continued possession of the Land of Canaan was contingent on whether Israel obeyed the voice of the Lord. The very reason the Jews went into captivity in Assyria in 722 B.C. and Babylon in 586 B.C., which resulted in the loss of their inherited land, was due to their unrelenting disobedience.

The traditional understanding of the Jews’ exile, among Christians as well as Orthodox Jews, was that it constituted a divine punishment for their sins and their lack of faithfulness to God. It was to be ended by miraculous means at a time of God’s choosing. As one anti-Zionist rabbi recently put it, until the late 19th Century "no believing Jew thought that the biblical prophecies concerning a return to the land were to be fulfilled via human initiative." Rather, these prophecies were read as "a God-initiated, miraculous event that will end history as we know it."

The original Zionists, say anti-Zionist Jews (mainly but not exclusively Orthodox), were atheists who wished to substitute the worldly glory of an earthly state and army for the supernatural promises in which religious Jews placed their hopes. Neturei Karta, a well-known group of anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews, puts it this way:


"Jewry always viewed their exile as a Divine punishment for sins. Thus, exile is the result of metaphysical forces. It cannot be rectified by force, political efforts or any other worldly means. Jews yearn for the Biblically promised redemption of the entire world to be ushered in by the Heavenly appointed Messiah. This yearning manifested itself over the centuries only in prayer, good deeds and a spirit of penitence. This is the only Divinely sanctioned methodology to end the punishment of exile. Zionism, at root, rejected this sacred view of history. Its vision was and is limited to material cause and effect. Hence, to the Zionist mind, which has come, tragically, to dominate much of contemporary public discussion, exile was simply the result of Jewish political weakness. Their solution was to establish political sovereignty over the Holy Land."
Neturei Karta has also denounced what it describes as Zionist attempts "to ruin Gentile politicians and writers who in some small way challenge its demands."

If Zionism is a historically recent innovation -- or corruption, as anti-Zionists would have it -- then any Christian defense of Zionism runs into an immediate difficulty. If the Jews are meant to return to the Holy Land and end their exile through natural, human means, as Christian Zionists claim, why had the Jews themselves, who might reasonably be expected to know something about such things, never heard of this idea until the 19th Century?

But by far the more decisive argument against Christian Zionism involves the traditional Christian understanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testaments. Christians do not, of course, reject the Old Testament; that would be the heresy of Marcionism. But what Christians have always done, from the days of the Fathers to the present, is to read the Old Testament in the light of the New.

In the Old Testament we are presented with the shadows that become New Testament realities. The Old Testament is filled with what are referred to as types of things to come under the New Covenant of Christ. The sacrifice of animals (and foodstuffs, as with Melchisedech) was a type of sacrifice of Christ and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The manna from Heaven prefigures the Eucharist. St. Paul speaks of the festival days of the Old Covenant as having been "... a shadow of things to come ..." (Col. 2:17). The old law, likewise, is a shadow of the new.

A Protestant writer, O. Palmer Robertson, astutely observes that not only are we dealing here with type and fulfillment, but that the fulfillment is always qualitatively superior to the Old Testament foreshadowing.


"As the Israelites journeyed through the desert, God provided them with manna from Heaven, water from the rock, and a serpent on a pole. All these images found their New Covenant fulfillment, not in more manna and water, or in a larger serpent on a taller pole, but in the redemptive realities that these Old Covenant forms foreshadowed. (see, e.g., John 3:14; 6:51; 7:37; Rom. 15:16) The very nature of the Old Covenant provisions requires that they be viewed as prophetic shadows, not as permanent realities."
The traditional Catholic position has essentially been that the promises made to the Jewish people have been literally fulfilled in the person of Christ and in the Catholic Church, and that to look for physical fulfillment is to miss what separates the New from the Old Testament. Non-dispensationalist Protestants, while of course not looking to the Catholic Church as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, have generally held that the Christian community broadly conceived is what inherits the divine promises. God still desires the salvation of the Jews, but it must be accomplished in the same way that anyone else is saved: through Jesus Christ. God’s special covenant with the Jews came to an end when Christ entered the world and made believers in Him, no matter what their race or geographical location, the new chosen people of God.

Beginning with the New Testament and continuing through the Church Fathers, one finds a clear continuity throughout Catholic thought on the question of Israel, the Jews, and the idea of a "chosen people." According to St. Paul’s Letter to the Galatians, the idea of the "seed of Abraham" is to be understood in a spiritual rather than a racial or nationalistic sense, for "... they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (Gal. 3:7). "And if you be Christ’s, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

In his First Epistle, St. Peter addresses the faithful as "... a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare His virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Who in times past were not a people: but are now the people of God" (1 Pet. 2:9-10). It is the followers of Christ, therefore, who constitute the "chosen generation" and the "people of God." One could easily multiply examples. (cf. Luke 3:8-9; Rom. 2:28-29) Another crucial distinction that Christian Zionists consistently overlook is to whom the promises of Genesis 12-22 are addressed. In some places the promises are made to Abraham and his descendants, while in other places they are made only to Abraham’s descendants. In Genesis 12-22, these two categories are distinguished by the refrains "you and your descendants" and "your descendants," respectively.

For example, Genesis 13:14-16 states:


"The LORD said to Abram, after Lot was separated from him; Lift up thy eyes and look from the place wherein thou now art, to the north and to the south and to the east and to the west. All the land which thou seest, I will give to you and to your descendants forever. I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered."
Notice that Genesis 13:15 specifies "I will give it to you and to your descendants forever." We do not find this language in either Genesis 12:6-7 or 15:18-21, the latter of which specifies the very names of the peoples who inhabited the land that the Israelites will dispossess. Both Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 say only that God will give the land "to your descendants," but not "to you," that is, to Abraham.

Since that is the case, the obvious question is: when is Abraham going to receive his promised land? Abraham never received the promised land while he was alive on earth. The only land he owned was a burial plot he bought for Sarah. Thus, Scripture tells us that Abraham’s promise of land is going to be fulfilled in a different way. Hebrews 11:10- 16, 39-40 shows how:


10. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 13. All these died according to faith, not having received the promises but beholding them afar off, and saluting them and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth. 14. For they that say these things do signify that they seek a country. 15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that from whence they came out, they have had doubtless, time to return. 16. But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a city. 39. And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40. Since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
So here we see that Abraham’s promise of land will indeed be fulfilled, but it will not be on this present sin-cursed earth. Rather, it is a "heavenly" city that God Himself builds, or as Romans 4:13 says: "For" the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world ...," (Greek: kosmos, i.e., the New Earth of Ap. 21:1f) not merely a piece of land in Palestine. Abraham and his faithful descendants -- the descendants of whom St. Paul says, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, and heirs according to the promise" in Galatians 3:29 -- will inherit the New Heaven and New Earth, and live with God for eternity, and thus Genesis 13:14-16 will be fulfilled, quite literally. Nothing in traditional Christian theology suggests that it will be fulfilled for Jews on this earth, at least by divine mandate. The Jews of this earth were already given their land, and God took it back, quite a long time ago. It is only Abraham and his Christian descendants who are still entitled to land, but that promise will be fulfilled in eternity.

Since, as we have seen in Hebrews 10:10-16, the promise of land to Abraham is going to be fulfilled in the New Heaven and New Earth -- a place of peace and contentment in a cosmic land far removed from sin and wickedness -- we can understand why Israel’s possession of land by divine promise in the Old Testament was merely a foreshadowing of a greater glory. According to Palmer Robertson, "Israel’s experience with the land had the effect of placing the promise of it in the category of an Old Covenant shadow that would have to wait for the arrival of New Covenant realities for its fulfillment."


In the time of David and Solomon, the full extent of the land was described as stretching from the Tigris-Euphrates River to the border of Egypt. (3 Kings 4:21) In this restored paradise of the kingdom, every man would sit under his own vine and fig tree. (3 Kings 4:25; Mic. 4:4; Zech. 3:10) Yet from the beginning, the actual experience of the people was quite different. From Solomon’s day onward, the people experienced oppression rather than paradise, which had the effect of placing this promise firmly within the category of an Old Covenant shadow that would have to wait for the arrival of New Covenant realities for its fulfillment."1
Put in another way, although Israel’s acquisition of the land was based on an oath God made to Abraham, Israel’s dispossession of the land due to their disobedience is the other side of this story. Sin always had a way of putting conditions on God’s promises. As in the time of the monarchy cited above, oppression was a common characteristic in the Judges period. Over the span of about 400 years, from the conquering of Jericho to Israel’s first king, Israel’s disobedience caused God to raise up various nations, especially the Philistines, to oppress them. When Israel repented, God would raise up a judge to defeat the foreigner, and then Israel would have "rest in the land" for a certain period of time. This cycle of "oppression-rest" occurred six times in the Judges period.

Along with Scripture, the consensus among the early Fathers is that there is no divinely mandated future glory for national Israel. Divine promises made to Israel are said to have been already fulfilled in the Old Testament. Remaining prophecies concerning "Israel" are said to be fulfilled in the New Testament Church, or in the eternity of the New Heaven and New Earth. There are only a few personalities who even address the issue of Israel in the future. Some give commentaries on Romans 11:25-27, e.g., Origen, Theodoret, Chrysostom, Jerome, Cyril, Augustine, Pelagius (not the heretic of the same name, of course).

Of those, Origen admits that he does not know what "all Israel" means. He writes: "What all Israel means or what the fullness of the Gentiles will be only God knows ..."2 Chrysostom refers only to a spiritual restoration: "God’s covenant will be fulfilled not when they are circumcised ... but when they obtain the forgiveness of sins... it will certainly come to pass.3 Augustine states that Romans 11:26 applies only to the remnant of Israel, and spiritually to the Church: "Not all the Jews were blind; some of them recognized Christ. But the fullness of the Gentiles comes in among those who have been called according to the plan, and there arises a truer Israel of God ... the elect from both the Jews and the Gentiles."4 Theodoret takes the same track as Augustine: "All Israel means all those who believe, whether they are Jews, who have a natural relationship to Israel, or Gentiles, who are related to Israel by faith" (Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans, Migne p. 82, col. 180). Pelagius challenges those who interpret Romans 11:25-27 as applying to the future, stating that if it does, what does that leave for those Jews in the present: "Some interpreters regard all these events as future. To them one must reply ... what will become of those who are now perishing as unbelievers."5

Only two Fathers hold out for any future large restoration of faith in Israel. Jerome states: "... because when the Jews receive the faith at the end of the world, they will find themselves in dazzling light, as if Our Lord were returning to them from Egypt." (Commentary on St. Matthew, Ch. 2) Cyril of Alexandria says: "Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the treasure they will find in Christ." (Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5) But although Jerome and Cyril look for a spiritual movement in the future, neither of them specify or imply that such movement in- cludes a national and physical restoration of Israel to the land of Palestine, and neither did any other Father. Indeed, the earlier Fathers do not even envision a large conversion of Jews.

That this has indeed been the traditional Christian understanding of Israel and Old Testament prophecy likely accounts for the Popes’ lack of sympathy toward Zionism. According to Herzl, who obtained an audience with Pope St. Pius X in 1904, the Pope concluded, after some discussion between the two, "We cannot be in favor of it ... And so, if you come to Palestine and settle your people there, we shall have churches and priests ready to baptize all of you."

Pope Pius XII, ludicrously slandered as "Hitler’s Pope," performed many acts of kindness and charity toward the Jews, but the Vatican was always careful to distinguish between charity and support for Zionism. Thus when Pius XII helped to save 4,000 Slovakian children and transport them to Palestine, the apostolic delegate to Washington, Archbishop Amleto G. Cicognani, hastened to note that the Pope’s action was not meant to indicate support for Zionism. "It is true that at one time Palestine was inhabited by the Hebrew," Archbishop Cicognani wrote in a June 1943 letter to President Roosevelt’s special envoy to the Vatican, "but there is no axiom in history to substantiate the necessity of a people returning to a country they left ninteen centuries before." He added: "If a ‘Jewish Home’ is desired, it would not be too difficult to find a more fitting territory than Palestine. With an increase in the Jewish population there, grave new international problems would arise."

Even Pope Paul VI, far more liberal than his predecessors on every important matter, upon visiting the Holy Land in 1964 refused to meet with the country’s chief rabbi, never once mentioned the word Israel, and made clear that his trip to the Christian holy sites should not be interpreted as conferring legitimacy upon the Jewish state. John Paul II, while establishing diplomatic relations with Israel in 1993, continues to be critical of Israel’s policies in the occupied territories.

Patriarch Michel Sabbah, the present Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem, rejects the biblical claims of Zionism. Himself a Palestinian, Patriarch Sabbah asked in a 1993 pastoral letter: "Does the Bible as the Word of God give the right to the Jewish people today to appropriate the land for themselves and, in doing so, dispossess the Palestinian people?" Clearly not, for "God cannot permit His love for one people to become an injustice for another people."

Patriarch Sabbah likewise insisted that it would be wrong to imagine the Old and New Covenants "as though they were two entirely separate, parallel or autonomous Covenants." The material and temporal aspects of the Old Covenant have given way to the spiritual meaning of the New. This is an especially important point with regard to the question of land and God’s promises: "The concept of the land had then evolved throughout different stages of Revelation, beginning with the physical, geographical and political concept and ending up with the spiritual and symbolic meaning. The worship of God is no longer linked to a specific land. A specific land is not the prime and absolute value for worship. The sole and absolute value is God and the worship of God in any place in the world."

(Readers can decide for themselves the pertinence of this digression, but Zenit news service reports that in January of this year Patriarch Sabbah was detained by Israeli security at the airport in Tel Aviv when he attempted to fly to Rome to attend a conference at which he was to be a speaker. In apparent violation of Israel’s 1993 agreement with the Vatican, Israeli security officials searched the Patriarch’s suitcases, and also demanded to examine his personal papers. L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican’s semi-official newspaper, reported that such conduct violated the respect routinely accorded to a Vatican diplomatic passport. Patriarch Sabbah never got to the conference.)

Patriarch Sabbah is joined in this matter by Fr. Majdi al-Siryani, a legal advisor to the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. "[F]or the extra-majority of the believers in the Bible," he writes, "the restoration of Israel came true in a greater spiritual reality, that is the coming of the Messiah and the election of the Church. In this understanding, the realities of the Old Testament are not abolished or replaced but raised to a greater reality. For any Christian to accept the Israeli claims is to deny a basic dogma in Christian theology." (emphasis added)

Likewise, Fr. Labib Kobti, who holds a doctorate in canon law from the Lateran and has worked and written extensively on issues relating to Zionism and the Middle East, recently remarked:


"Note that as the Lord is speaking about a ‘New Covenant’ in Jeremiah the Prophet, the Lord declares that the ‘First Covenant,’ a covenant of flesh and of Land, was abolished by the new one, and that the old one was only a symbol of the conversion of our hearts to Him. He does not speak in Jeremiah about a right to return to a Land but about a kingdom of peace, love and truth open to all people, as He [has] put the ‘Law within us and written it upon our hearts.’ ... The Bible does not give to Jews any moral ‘right to return’ and repossess all the land, nor even a part of the land exclusively, or make the people who have lived there for thousands and thousands of years ... submit themselves as illegal immigrants."
God is a "God of righteousness, justice, peace and love," Fr. Kobti observed, and "not a real estate agent for one people."

This, in sum, is why Catholics must reject the idea that their adhesion to biblical truth commits them to Israeli territorial claims. To the contrary, eighteen centuries of Christian tradition say just the opposite, just as they also testify against the entire system of dispensationalist theology on which Christian Zionism is based. Although the Christian Zionists routinely claim the moral and biblical high ground, their boasts rest on a foundation of novelty and fallacy.

Footnotes:

1. Robertson, p. 13.

2. Commentarii in Epistulam ad Romanos, ed., T. Heither, (Freiburg im Breisgau, 1990-1995) Volume 4, p. 304.

3. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Volume 11, p. 493.

4. Fathers of the Church: A New Translation, (Catholic University of America, 1947), Volume 20, p. 253.

5. Pelagius Commentary on Romans, (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993) p. 129.

This article was reprinted from the April 2003 issue of Catholic Family News, M.P.O. Box 743, Niagara Falls, NY 14302.

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« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2004, 01:24:22 AM »

Because that was historically the lands that were theirs, Biblically.  Hard luck on someone, no matter where you carve the land out, but carve it out of the land God promised them.

2000 years mean it isn't theirs at all. Germany doesn't belong to me. Are we supposed to look at the settlement patterns of the time of Christ and ship everyone back East. By such logic the population of the US should all go home and leave the US to the Native Americans.

I don't believe that the promised land belongs to a secular state of Israel. I don't believe the prophecies refer to a modern state of Israel at all. That's modern Protestant thinking not Orthodoxy.

I'd not want the state of Israel destroyed. I wish that they had secure borders and lived at peace with their neighbours, whose faults I hope I recognise. But the state of Israel is not biblical Israel.

I wholeheartedly agree, Peter, and when I get a chance to agree with you, I'll take it quick!  Wink

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peterfarrington: I find it as hard to fathom as Linus and his philo-papalism.

Uncool remark.  Huh
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« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2004, 02:26:20 AM »

The Year the Arabs Discovered Palestine
by Daniel Pipes
Jerusalem Post
September 13, 2000
Today is the day when a Palestinian state was nearly declared - for the third time.

On October 1, 1948, the mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Husseini, stood before the Palestine National Council in Gaza and declared the existence of an All-Palestine Government.

In theory, this state already ruled Gaza and would soon control all of Palestine. Accordingly, it was born with a full complement of ministers to lofty proclamations of Palestine's free, democratic, and sovereign nature. But the whole thing was a sham. Gaza was run by the Egyptian government, the ministers had nothing to oversee, and the All-Palestine Government never expanded anywhere. Instead, this fa+ºade quickly withered away.

Almost exactly forty years later, on November 15, 1988, a Palestinian state was again proclaimed, again at a meeting of the Palestine National Council.

This time, Yasser Arafat called it into being. In some ways, this state was even more futile than the first, being proclaimed in Algiers, almost 3,000 kilometers and four borders away from Palestine, and controlling not a centimeter of the territory it claimed. Although the Algiers declaration received enormous attention at the time (the Washington Post's front-page story read "PLO Proclaims Palestinian State"), a dozen years later it is nearly as forgotten as the Gazan declaration that preceded it.

In other words, today's declaration of a Palestinian state would have retreaded some well-worn ground.

We do not know what today's statement would have said, but like the 1988 document it probably would have claimed that "the Palestinian Arab people forged its national identity" in distant antiquity.

In fact, the Palestinian identity goes back, not to antiquity, but precisely to 1920. No "Palestinian Arab people" existed at the start of 1920 but by December it took shape in a form recognizably similar to today's.

Until the late nineteenth century, residents living in the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean identified themselves primarily in terms of religion: Moslems felt far stronger bonds with remote co-religionists than with nearby Christians and Jews. Living in that area did not imply any sense of common political purpose.

Then came the ideology of nationalism from Europe; its ideal of a government that embodies the spirit of its people was alien but appealing to Middle Easterners. How to apply this ideal, though? Who constitutes a nation and where must the boundaries be? These questions stimulated huge debates.

Some said the residents of the Levant are a nation; others said Eastern Arabic speakers; or all Arabic speakers; or all Moslems.

But no one suggested "Palestinians," and for good reason. Palestine, then a secular way of saying Eretz Yisra'el or Terra Sancta, embodied a purely Jewish and Christian concept, one utterly foreign to Moslems, even repugnant to them.

This distaste was confirmed in April 1920, when the British occupying force carved out a "Palestine." Moslems reacted very suspiciously, rightly seeing this designation as a victory for Zionism. Less accurately, they worried about it signaling a revival in the Crusader impulse. No prominent Moslem voices endorsed the delineation of Palestine in 1920; all protested it.

Instead, Moslems west of the Jordan directed their allegiance to Damascus, where the great-great-uncle of Jordan's King Abdullah II was then ruling; they identified themselves as Southern Syrians.

Interestingly, no one advocated this affiliation more emphatically than a young man named Amin Husseini. In July 1920, however, the French overthrew this Hashemite king, in the process killing the notion of a Southern Syria.

Isolated by the events of April and July, the Moslems of Palestine made the best of a bad situation. One prominent Jerusalemite commented, just days following the fall of the Hashemite kingdom: "after the recent events in Damascus, we have to effect a complete change in our plans here. Southern Syria no longer exists. We must defend Palestine."

Following this advice, the leadership in December 1920 adopted the goal of establishing an independent Palestinian state. Within a few years, this effort was led by Husseini.

Other identities - Syrian, Arab, and Moslem - continued to compete for decades afterward with the Palestinian one, but the latter has by now mostly swept the others aside and reigns nearly supreme.

That said, the fact that this identity is of such recent and expedient origins suggests that the Palestinian primacy is superficially rooted and that it could eventually come to an end, perhaps as quickly as it got started.

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« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2004, 02:29:27 AM »

Imperial Israel: The Nile-to-Euphrates Calumny
by Daniel Pipes

Even before the State of Israel came into existence, Arab leaders accused Zionists of seeking to establish a state that would cover most of the Middle East. This notion of a Greater Israel, quite distinct from the one understood by Zionists, eventually became so routinized and accepted, it by now serves as the conventional wisdom in all the Arabic-speaking countries and Iran. However fantastical, the fear has real significance, virtually guaranteeing misunderstanding, poisoning attitudes toward Israel, and making resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict more difficult. Although a distant and difficult topic for Americans to deal with, it deserves U.S. government attention as part of the general effort to forward Arab-Israeli peace negotiations.

PROOFS: A COIN, A FLAG, AND A MAP

On May 25, 1990, the United Nations Security Council left its permanent quarters in New York City and moved its representatives and staff all the way to Geneva, Switzerland, just so Yasir Arafat, who had been prohibited from entering the United States, could address the Council. And what did Arafat have to say on this momentous occasion? One of the subjects he chose to highlight for this august body was his proof that the Israeli government sought to expand far beyond its present borders. "Please allow me to show this document," he told the assembled diplomats. "This document is a 'map of Greater Israel' which is inscribed on this Israeli coin, the 10-agora piece." Producing a map, Arafat elucidated in detail the boundaries of Israel purportedly represented on the coin: "all of Palestine, all of Lebanon, all of Jordan, half of Syria, two-thirds of Iraq, one-third of Saudi Arabia as far as holy Medina, and half of Sinai."1

This was hardly the first time Arafat had displayed such a map. Indeed, throughout 1990 he made a practice of carrying 10-agora coins in the shirt pocket of his uniform. On occasion he would hand them out. "Look, look," he would exclaim, taking out a coin, this is a 10-agora piece. It is a new Israeli coin, And what does it show? The Jewish seven-branched candelabrum against the background of an incredible map: an outline shows the region goes from the Mediterranean to Mesopotamia, from the Red Sea to the Euphrates. It is a glaring demonstration of Zionist aspirations.2

Sometimes, Arafat claimed that these boundaries show the map of Israel after the immigration of a further 3.5 million Jews. Except to someone predisposed to find clues of Zionist expansionism the 10-agora piece has only the vaguest resemblance to a map of the area Arafat describes. It was closely patterned after a coin issued in 37 B.C.E., during the Roman siege of Jerusalem, by Mattathias Antigonus II, the last Hasmonaean king. According to Professor Yaacov Meshorer, head of the antiquities section of the Israel museum, the artist Nathan Karp used only the general outline of the ancient coin in his design of the 10-agora piece. "Karp was astounded," said Meshorer, "that anyone could see the coast of the Land of Israel there."3

Arafat rejected this explanation. As further proof of his assertion, he produced a second document, a map from a scholarly articled titled "Developing Perspectives upon the Areal Extent of Israel: An Outline Evaluation." Despite its jargon-laden title, this article by Dr. Gwyn Rowley of the University of Sheffield in England4 contained a diagram of spectacular utility for Arafat's argument: a map of the Middle East with a superimposed outline reaching from the Sinai peninsula to the Iraq-Iran border (see map 1). According to the legend accompanying the map, it provides "the areal dimensions of Israel according to the current (1989) Israeli 10 Agorot coin." Arafat rested his case on the basis of Dr. Rowley's scholarship.

In another, yet more imaginative argument, Arafat discerned a hidden symbolism of expansionist intent in the Israeli flag: its two horizontal blue lines represent the Nile and Euphrates Rivers, he told a Playboy interviewer, "and in between is Israel."5 (In fact, the blue lines derive from the design on the traditional Jewish prayer shawl.)

The claim for Greater Israel also asserts that Israel's parliament, the Knesset, contains an inscription or map asserting Israel's right to rule the Nile to the Euphrates. Leaders such as Syria's president, Hafiz al-Asad, and its defense minister, Mustafa Tallas, as well as Iran's president have all claimed that "the Land of Israel from the Euphrates to the Nile" is chiseled over the Kenesset's entrance.6 That no one has yet laid eyes on either does not stop the rumors; to a witness who tours the parliament building without seeing the map, the reply comes that it was removed in anticipation of his visit.

As ever, Arafat showed special creativity. Addressing the Jerusalem Committee of the Arab League, he noted that the Knesset's inscription had been gone for thirty-two years but went back up in 1990:

Last year [1989] they stamped on its face the Israeli menorah, directly under which there is the map of Greater Israel. This has attracted our attention, especially since talk about Greater Isreal had commenced with the establishment of Israel, when they put a sign on the entrance of the Israeli Knesset that said: "This is your land Israel, from the Nile to the Euphrates." This sign remained for ten years. They were advised to remove it, but now the have put it back up. They have returned to it following the agreement of the two giants in Malta [a reference to the Bush-Gorbachev summit of December 1989].7
Days later, Arafat substituted an alternate conclusion: "They were advised to remove this plaque, [which they did], but they have engraved this map on this coin under the menorah."8 On another occasion he added that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee has "published maps on this issue,"9 though, again, no one has laid eyes on them.

THE IDEA

Whence comes this wild notion of Greater Israel, and what, if any validity does it have? It has four main sources. First, and by far most important, the Jewish Bible contains two passages that point to Israeli domination of the Middle East. In describing God's covenant with Abraham, Genesis 15:18 reads: "To your descendants I give this land from the River of Egypt to the Great River, the river Euphrates." Even more ominously, Moses announces to the Jews in Deuteronomy 11:24 that "every place where you set the soles of your feet shall be yours. Your borders shall run from the wilderness to the Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphrates, to the western sea."

Second, some Westerners expected modern Israel to recapitulate the ancient state's borders; that British ambassador in Istanbul, for example, predicted as early as 1910 that "the domination of Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs, who forced the Jews to build Pyramids, is part of the future heritage of Israel."10

Third, early Zionist leaders referred to an Israeli intent to rule large territories. Around 1900, Theodor Herzl and Isidore Bodenheimer routinely referred to Jewish settlement in "Palestine and Syria," as did organizations like the Jewish National Fund and the Zionist Congress. In 1898, Herzl planned to ask the Ottoman sultan for a territory stretching from the Egyptian frontier to the Euphrates.11 Four years later, he spoke of settling Jews in Mesopotamia.

Fourth, later Zionist leaders are questioned making ambitious claims. Vladimir Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, was quoted in 1935 stating, "We want a Jewish empire."12 Moshe Dayan's visit to the Golan Heights soon after its capture by Israeli troops in 1967 has become the stuff of legends. According to Hafiz al-Asad, Dayan announced that "the past generation established Israel within its 1948 borders; and you have to establish a Greater Israel from the Niles to the Euphrates."13 An Iraqi writer recounts the speech somewhat differently: "We have taken Jerusalem. . .and are now on our way to Yathrib [Medina] and Babylon"14 --two other cities of ancient Jewish habitation. Whatever the specifics, Arabs agree that Dayan spurred a new round of Israeli expansionist fervor. Prime Minister Menachem Begin was later quoted, supposedly, to the effect that the Bible predicts the Israeli state will eventually include portions of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Jordan and Kuwait.15

How valid are these arguments, and how accurate these quotes? The second and third sources--statements by European Christians and early Zionists--clearly have only limited importance. External predictions can hardly serve as authoritative sources for the Zionist movement. Territorial musings before the Balfour Declaration of 1918 were uttered when the Zionist movement was still embryonic; in any case, Herzl did not in fact request the Nile-to-Euphrates region from the Ottoman king or anyone else. As for the bellicose statements attributed to Jabotinsky, Begin and Dayan, they are all second-hand and at best somewhat dubious. In all probability, opponents simply invented them. The first was quoted by Robert Gessner, a hostile writer; the second by enemy leaders of proven unreliability; and the third by a friendly source (the American television evangelist Jerry Falwell), yet the claim to the Sudan and Kuwait strains credulity and therefore casts doubt on the whole assertion.

The passages in the Bible are a more complex matter. Three considerations have to be taken into account to understand what they mean.

First, the "River of Egypt," almost certainly refers not to the Nile, but to Wadi al-Arish on the north coast of the Sinai Peninsula. The lack of parallel between the two formulations, "the Great River, the river Euphrates" and the "River of Egypt" seems to corroborate this interpretation. In any case, the principal Jewish commentaries on this text, notably that of Rashi, identify the River of Egypt with Wadi Al-Arish. These commentaries, it bears noting, have for centuries accompanied the Biblical text itself in published editions of the Bible, and thus predisposed Zionists to understand "the River of Egypt" along these lines.

Second, the rules of Biblical exegesis hold that specific laws always take precedence over general laws. Accordingly, the detailed, and geographically far more constrained, delineation of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) in Numbers 34:1-12 ("It shall then turn from the south up to the ascent of Akrabbim and pass by Zim, and its southern limit shall be Kadesh-barnea. . . .") and Ezekiel 47:13-20 supplant the much vaguer ones in Genesis and Deuteronomy. For this reason Jewish tradition has long viewed Genesis statement as nonoperational.

Third, in the Biblical account, Abraham's "descendants" include not just the Jews through Isaac, but also their "cousins," the Arabs through Ishmael--in which case the covenant was long ago amply fulfilled.

Then, to assess the contemporary importance of the Biblical injunctions, a number of points need to be kept in mind:

--Greater Israel is an inexact translation of Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah, Hebrew for "the Integral Land of Israel." The English term implies a geographical expansion not present in the original.

--Early Zionists considered a wide range of lands for Jewish colonization, including Cyprus, Sinai, Mesopotamia, East Africa and Argentina. In addition, the Soviet regime made Birobidzhan, a distant region of Siberia, into its version of a Jewish homeland. These territories should be understood as alternatives to, not extensions of, Palestine.

--For decades, the Zionist debate centered on what emphasis Jewish control over the whole of Eretz Yisrael should have. Labor Zionists thought this less important than other objectives (such as establishing a sovereign Jewish state) but Revisionist Zionists made it their first priority. In nearly all cases, it bears noting, Revisionists lost out to their Labor rivals.

--The Israeli government has not adopted the Bible as a policy document. The Saudis call the Qur'an--or Koran--their constitution, and virtually every other Arab state derives some of its legislation from the Qur'an. Fundamentalist Muslims all agree that "Islam is the solution." So it is reasonable to imagine, as does Vice-President 'Abd al-Halim Khaddam of Syria that "Zionist ideology is based on the Jews' Torah."16 Reasonable, maybe, but certainly not accurate; Israel was founded by secularists inspired by nationalist and socialist goals, not religious ones. And really, isn't it faintly preposterous to assume that passages dating from three millennia ago would guide the actions of a modern democratic polity.

--While Revisionist Zionists did claim Jordan and parts of Lebanon and Syria as a part of Eretz Yisrael during the Mandatory period, no Zionist ever laid claim to or sought to control Egypt, Sudan or Iraq, much less Mecca and the Persian Gulf.

--The notion of Eretz Yisrael subsequently shrank, to the point that today it includes just the territory of Mandatory Palestine. As proof, note that Revisionists in recent decades viewed the Sinai, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and southern Lebanon in strategic terms only, not historic ones. That confirms that they now see these areas outside of Eretz Yisrael.

--No Israeli political party today (not even Meir Kahane's Kach) aspires to Israeli rule over all Eretz Yisrael as understood by the Revisionists during the Mandatory period; rather, Revisionists only demand now that Israel not give up any part of Eretz Yisrael already under its control.

--Difficulties with less than two million Muslims in the West Bank and Gaza surely put to rest the grandiose notion of four million Jews ruling a Muslim population twenty-five times larger. How would the Israeli defense forces handle an intifada in Cairo?

--The Israelis did not have a chance to choose their ideal borders in June 1967, and they stopped far short of the Nile and the Euphrates. Had they plans to expand to those rivers, they could have done so with virtual impunity at that time.

--The Israelis thrice won part or all of the Sinai peninsula (in the 1948-49, 1956 and 1967 wars) and thrice returned captured territories to Egypt. How can this fact be reconciled with supposed plans of wanting to rule from the Nile to the Euphrates?

EIGHT STATES

The whole idea of a Greater Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates has to be dismissed as groundless fantasy.17 But fantasy or not, leading politicians from the major Muslim states of the Middle East (with the important exception of Turkey) volubly express themselves on the subject of Greater Israel. Here are some statements, both typical and extravagant:

King 'Aabd al-'Aziz ibn Sa'ud of Saudi Arabia (who ruled between 1902 and 1953) seems to have been the first important politician firmly to believe in Greater Israel. He expected a Zionist invasion of his kingdom, as he confided to a retired British diplomat in October 1937: "The Jews contemplate as their final aim not only the seizure of all Palestine but the land south of it as far as Medina. Eastward also they hope some day to extend to the Persian Gulf." Why as far as Medina, the second holiest city of Islam? The Saudi king recalled the Jewish presence in that city during the Prophet Muhammad's lifetime; and he assumed they wanted to return to what he called "their old stronghold."18

Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt then picked up this theme and spread it through the Middle East. He argued tirelessly that Israelis sought a Greater Israel to include the whole central Middle East and thereby to turn the Arabs into "a horde of refugees."19 The Israelis would never give up this aspiration: "Even if they do not expect to realize their talk today or tomorrow about an Israeli state or a Kingdom of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, they will persevere in this goal until they find an opportunity [to attain it]."20 At times he agreed with the Saudi king and declared that "the Jews intend to conquer Mecca and Medina,"21 or that they planned to annihilate all Arabs. Abdel Nasser's aide, Hasan Sabri al-Khuli, went one further and portrayed Greater Israel as a way to implement "Zionist aspirations for world domination."22

Long after Abdel Nasser's death, and through years of Egypt's peace with Israel, his acolytes continued to warn against Greater Israel. General Saad El-Shazly flatly asserted that Ariel Sharon would "aspire to conquest over an area greater even than the biblical dreams of a land from the Nile to the Euphrates" and saw air power as Israel's means to this ambitious end.23 A 1990 editorial in Al-Akhbar held that the immigration of Soviet Jews to Israel would lead to the expulsion of Palestinians from the disputed territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip--"an important step toward fulfilling the old dream of Greater Israel, stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates."24

The Libyans, ever short of water, brought a different sensibility to the issue, transforming the Biblical injunction into a hydraulic dream of "dominating water sources in the region, from the Euphrates to the Nile."25 Jews covet the Nile and Euphrates Rivers, Mu'ammar al-Qadhdafi asserted, "to control Arab waters," and are ready to settle millions of Jews in the Arab countries.26 Controlling the sources of these waters would take the Israelis from Turkey to Central Africa.27 Thus fired up, Qadhdhafi conjured up the greatest Greater Israel of them all:

The Israelis said their home is from ocean to ocean, from the Indian Ocean to the straits of Bab al-Manib, stratis of Hormuz, the Red Sea. . .to the Atlantic Ocean together with the straits of Gibraltar and the Mediterranean.28
Qadhdafi imagined an Israel headquartered in Cairo stretching from Pakistan to Spain, from Turkey to Yemen! In his most paranoid moments he presented Greater Israel as a joint Zionist-American plot "to occupy the Arab world and the Islamic world," with special emphasis on the control of Mecca and Medina.29 In other words, Greater Israel will serve as an instrument to eliminate Islam.

After 1985, Hafiz al-Asad of Syria often raised the Greater Israel theme, presenting it as an imminent danger that he single-handedly stopped and calling on the Arabs to mobilize "to prevent the establishment of Greater Israel."30 Along these lines, Syria's Defense Minister Mustafa Tallas told a military audience that, "Had it not been for Hafiz al-Asad, Greater Israel would have been established from the Nile to the Euphrates." As if that were not achievement enough, he claimed that Asad's forces "prevented Israel from occupying the sources of oil."31 Asad even portrayed the attainment of Greater Israel as a Jewish religious duty and accused Israel of "talking mildly to deceive world opinion."32 The Syrian's brought Greater Israel into their diplomacy, too. In January 1992, during the peace process negotiations, the Syrian delegation displayed a map of Greater Israel and claimed it represented the Jewish state's territorial goals. Needless to say, the Israeli delegation quickly rebutted this assertion.

Since the Islamic Revolution of 1979, Iranian propaganda has strongly emphasized the threat of Greater Israel, often in connection with accusations of Jewish plans to control the world. A 1985 Tehran reprint of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion included a map, the "Dream of Zionism," which purports to show Greater Israel's ideal boundaries. It showed within this Israel the whole of inhabited Egypt, Saudi Arabia down to Medina, all of Syria, Iraq and Kuwait, the oil-producing region of Iran, and a good-sized slice of Turkey. To make matters complete, the boundary is drawn in the shape of a snake; and the scales are represented by a Freemason's Eye drawn repeatedly along the snake's back.

The Iranian media deprecates Israel by referring to it as a "tribe" that "considers its geographical boundaries" to extend from the Nile to the Euphrates.33 A 1990 newspaper report warned that because of Greater Israel, "six Arab countries around Palestine will be destroyed, or their inhabitants will be reduced to refugees."34 Iranian president Rafsanjani noted the emigration of "millions of Jews from all over the world" (foremost the USSR, but also Argentina and other countries), and interpreted this in terms of a Greater Israel "from the Euphrates River to the Nile River." Included in this vast area, he speculated, would be the north of Saudi Arabia and a large section of the Red Sea coast. The Zionists hoped to settle ten to twelve million people, Jews and others, to make Israel "a mighty and invincible state." Rafsanjani portrayed the last major advance toward this goal taking place in 1967, while bringing the border zone of Lebanon under Israeli control provided a finishing touch.35

Arabs in other states, not always government officials, occasionally echo these statements. Just weeks before the Iraqi invasion a Kuwaiti newspaper accused the Zionist movement of planning to reach the Nile River, which it termed "the southern border of the Torah's Israel."36 This subject, understandably, has not been broached again in the Kuwaiti media.

In Jordan, Sultan al-Hattab, editor of the newspaper Sawt ash-Sha'b wrote that "Greater Israel means Jordan, Syria, and Iraq as an immediate target and the entire Arab homeland as Israel's Lebensraum."37 The Israelis are said to see Lebanon as a no man's land and to annex it up to the Wadi at-Tim, north of Sidon.38 Even the all-but-nonexistent government of Lebanon occasionally felt compelled to stir the pot from time to time. President Ilyas al-Hirawi declared in early 1990 that a plot existed for Soviet Jews emigrating to Israel to settle in Lebanon, where they would further the Greater Israel aspiration. Muhammad Fadallah, Hizbullah's spiritual guide, feared the same prospect.

CONCLUSIONS

An article in the Egyptian magazine on tourism asserted that Israelis visiting Egypt "talk all the time about. . .Israel from the Nile to the Euprhrates."39 In fact, the reverse approaches the truth: fear of Great Israel is common coin on the Arab street. When tens of thousands of Palestinians participated in May 1990 in a "march of return" (a walk to Jordan's border with Israel), they inevitably chanted slogans against Greater Israel. So widespread is talk of Greater Israel, it need not even be spelled out. When a Jordanian sought to blame Jerusalem for sedition at Yarmuk University in December 1989, he merely blamed plotters "who plan day and night to ruin this nation and to extend their country from the Nile to the Euphrates."40 Everyone knew exactly who he had in mind.

These fears also infect scholarship. Muslin D. Yusuf, a historian at Bir Zeit University, concludes a 1991 article implying that Jerusalem has territorial ambitions to a Greater Israel stretching from the Sudan to Kuwait.41

The idea has even spread outside the Middle East. Patrick Seale, a British journalist of considerable reputation, has flatly asserted that "some nationalist Israelis (especially those in the Herut Party) dream of [a] Jewish state extending 'from the Nile to the Euphrates.'"42 Foreign Minister Claude Cheysson of France in 1983 called the division of Lebanon between Greater Syria and Greater Israel "our nightmare."43

On the other hand, Palestinians living in Israel show caution, at least in public, about endorsing the notion of Greater Israel, 'Abd al-Wahhab ad-Darwasha, a leading Israeli Arab politician, sidestepped a question from an Arab journalist asking him if most Israelis supported a Nile-to-Euphrates Greater Israel, mumbling instead about Israel's lack of a constitution and the disagreement about Israel's final borders.44 While no friend of Zionism, Darwasha knew firsthand the falseness of claims about a Greater Israel.

Contradictions abound in the Greater Israel argument. To begin with, the borders keep changing. The eastern frontier, for example, ranges anywhere between central Iraq and Pakistan. The same speaker might offer different borders. In late April 1990, Arafat announced that the Zionists aspired to (among other territories) the whold of Lebanon, three-quarters of Iraq and the majority of Sinai.45 Less than two weeks later, his Greater Israel included just two-thirds of Iraq and no part of Lebanon or Sinai.46

In March 1989, Damascus was even less consistent. Asad defined a conventional Greater Israel extending from the Nile to the Euphrates.47 A month later (April 12, 1990), Radio Damascus reduced this to a country merely "double the size of the Zionist entity." But years before, Prime Minister 'Abd ar-Ra'uf al-Kasm had told a Turkish audience that Israelis intend to occupy everything "from the sources of the Nile [in Ethiopia and Uganda] to the sources of the Euphrates [in central Anatolia] . . .Greater Israel includes Turkey, Iran, and Africa."48 And in 1992, Asad declared that Israel "wants to extend wherever there are Jews."49 Which is it?

Arabs also contradict themselves about their future under Israeli rule. Sometimes they see themselves dominated and exploited, sometimes expelled, so that Greater Israel becomes a place "where only Jews can live."50 Sometimes they foresee a single giant Jewish policy, other times they expect today's Arab states to be replaced by "illegitimate cardboard entities" that would eventually accept the existence of Israel.51

So confused is this whole issue, Arab leaders even trip over their own nomenclature. Taha Yasin Ramadan, the Iraqi first deputy prime minister, postulated on one occasion that "Greater Israel" implies a new expansionist policy much more serious than the past slogan, "From the Nile to the Euphrates."52 In fact, the two expressions are synonymous in Arab usage.

Do Arabs really believe what they say about Great Israel? Yitzhaq Shamir of Israel thought not, telling an interviewer in 1989 that Hafiz al-Asad knew this talk to be "sheer nonsense"53

But Patrick Seale, Asad's confident, held that the Syrian president truly believes vast expansion to be the long-term Israeli goal.54 There is no reason to doubt Seale's verdict. (Indeed, that Asad also believes that "Soviet Jews are the remains of the Khazars"55 confirms his general credulity on matters Jewish.) Shamir ignored the self-reinforcing impact of repetition; rulers and populations alike can eventually become convinced by their own propaganda machines.
Foreign reporters who encounter the Greater Israel mentality understand it to be genuine. Let's look at the Syrian case. The Wall Street Journal reports that "just as Israelis fear Damascus's old dream of a 'Greater Syria,' encompassing Israel, Syrians believe that Tel Aviv craves an 'Eretz Israel' stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates."56 Indeed, Mamdou Adwan, a leading Syrian poet, used almost these exact words in asserting that "we are as afraid of Greater Israel as they are of Greater Syria". According to Larry Cohler, an American journalist, Adwan is not alone: "Most Syrians support these hugh outlays [on the military] out of a genuine fear of Greater Israel." Cohler reports that he "encountered this fear repeatedly from people who earnestly believe that the Zionist goal is to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates." As his Syiran handler saw it, "Jews tend to lay claim to any part of the region they have dwelled in historically." One Syrian woman summed up the dangers of the Greater Israel accusation: "All the time we hear about Israel's claim, from the Nile to the Euphrates. How can we trust them when they act like that say they want peace."57

This woman's fear has significant consequences. Belief in Israel's plan to expand from the Nile to Euphrates, and maybe beyond, makes the Jewish state's very existence a threat to the entire Middle East and increases the already substantial paranoia in the Middle East to still higher levels. Arab and Iranian leaders who entertain these delusions conclude that they must destroy Israel before it devours them. For Muhammad Fadlallah, the Lebanese fundamentalist leader, Greater Israel means the Arabs cannot live in peace with Israel. "Israel's ambitions to extend from the Euphrates to the Nile are known. . . We can never have any security, whether military, economic, or political, so long as Israel is harboring its expansionist designs."58 The Greater Israel myth also justifies anti-Israel behavior as a defensive act. When Arafat asserted, "There will not be a Greater Israel,"59 he legitimated almost any action against Israel.

These fantastical Arab and Iranian fears of Israeli expansionism prevent Middle Easterners from seeing Israel as a country with normal security concerns. In addition, they transform the Jewish state into something too threatening with which to coexist. Just as the demonization of Jews in Europe caused uncounted pogroms and culminated in the Nazi holocaust, so making the Jewish state out to be a menace to the whole Middle East creates a parallel danger of unremitting conflict that could someday terminate in nuclear warfare.

Only when Israel comes to be regarded as a state like any other is there a chance that its neighbors will deal with it in accordance with convential diplomatic norms. There is little prospect of this happening soon, however, if wild claims about Israel expansionism remain integral to the fabric of its mainstream political life.

The Greater Israel calumny bounces back to harm Arabs, too. By exciting Arab hatred of Israel, it persuades many Israelis to hold on to the territories they won in 1967, and not take a chance on a peace treaty. Trading land for peace poses enough problems in its own right, without gratuitous Nile-to-Euphrates complications.

Nearly every polity's rhetoric contains statements of geographic grandeur that practical experience renders non-operational. It serves no one--least of all the Arab and Iranian populations--for their leaders to dredge out a religious pronouncement from three milennia back and transform it into a statement of aggressive intent.

U.S. POLICY

Turning to the United States, reducing apprehensions about Greater Israel is good American policy. Americans agree it's in their interest to end the Arab-Israeli conflict; because the fantasy of Greater Israel impedes resolution of that conflict. American diplomats and politicians should seize every opportunity to calm fears among their Arab and Iranian counterparts that Israel plans to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. Here are a few steps for U.S. officials to keep in mind:60

Understand the importance of fears about Greater Israel. More than anything else, sophisticated Americans are bemused by Middle Eastern paranoia. How can a serious Western analyst or policy maker credit this kind of conspiracy theory? It just does not fit into his stolid mentality, and he has trouble believing it fits into anyone else's either. But to ignore these fears is to base U.S. policy on faulty premises, which can lead to grave mistakes.

Indeed, American psychocentrism has sometimes led U.S. diplomacy astray. For example, Americans inadvertently did just about everything to confirm Iranian fears of plots during the 1960s and 1970s, and so helped bring on the Ayatollah Khomeini. American arrogance grated on Iranians. The huge size of the official American presence and its proximity to the central institutions of power, economics, and culture eased the way for the opposition to direct populist rage against Americans. Awareness of the conspiracy mentality would have gone far to have prevented this hostility from erupting

Use Greater Israel rhetoric to predict a dictator's actions. Projection--placing one's own motives and behavior on to others--implies that accusations often reflect the speaker's own intentions. When rulers are not accountable, this insight can help understand what their future moves may be. Qadhdafi's accusing Israel of wanting to divert the Nile waters reveals nothing about actual Israeli actions but it may tell us a great deal about Qadhdhafi; and in fact, he has devoted enormous resources into schemes to divert the Nile to Libya.61 Similarly, accusations from Damascus about Greater Israel confirm the Asad regime's ambitions for a Greater Syria more than they tell us about Israeli intentions.

Deny the validity of Greater Israel. The high road--not dignifying the outrageous with a response--does not work. Left alone, conspiracy theories fester. Better do as Middle Easterns; reply promptly and in kind. If the accusations are made privately, reply in private; if publicly, then in public. Americans in official positions do not often take this step.

Avoid the term Greater Israel. Greater Israel has two entirely different meanings. One is the Arab Nile-to-Euphrates notion analyzed here; the other an English translation of the term Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah used by Revisionist Zionists to refer to Israeli retention of Judea, Samarai, and Gaza. Arabs and Israelis tend to be completely ignorant of how the other uses the same term. Thus, when Labor Zionists criticize Revisionists in English, they refer to Revisionists' territorial claims as those of "Greater Israel," without any thought of how Arabs use this term.

Westerners tend to use Greater Israel in the Israeli sense, not the Arab one. That's what Secretary of State James Baker meant in 1989 when, in the Bush administration's first major policy statement on the Middle East, he admonished Israelis "to lay aside, once and for all, the unrealistic vision of a greater Israel."62 Baker used a term with self-evident meaning for Israelis and American Jews; but of course Arabs heard something quite different. His choice of words signalled to them that the U.S. government finally saw Israeli expansion as they did. Arafat observed that while the Israelis "are planning to establish Greater Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates, U.S. secretary of state Baker said Israel should forget its dream about establishing Greater Israel."63

To escape this sort of confusion, American officials should not use the term Greater Israel. And when they do, they have to be absolutely explicit that they mean Israeli control over the West Bank, and nothing more.

Remember that terms have different meanings. Westerners, and their statesmen in particular, must never assume a common political vocabulary when dealing with Middle Eastern political issues. Greater Israel represents a whole class of terms with starkly different meanings. When Americans can use the term peace in reference to the Arabs and Israel, they mean something along the lines of the United States and Canada. When Arabs use the term, they think of U.S-Cuban relations. Democracy in the West refers to a way of ordering politics, including the rule of law, freedom of speech, minority rights and political parties; in the Middle East, it just means elections. Syria in the West means the country delineated on the map; for people living in that country, it often refers to a cultural region that extends to include the entire Levant.

These differences point to a profound gap separating political assumptions in the West and in the Middle East. If outsiders hope to intervene constructively, they must begin by understanding what Middle Easterns are actually saying.



1. Radio Monte Carlo, May, 25, 1990.
2 La Repubblica, Apr. 3, 1990. Arafat made the same point again in a speech to the Jerusalem Committee of the Arab League on Apr. 9, 1990.
3 The Jerusalem Post, June 9, 1990.
4 GeoJournal, Feb. 19, 1989, pp. 99-110.
5 Playboy, Sept. 1988.
6 Al-Jazira, Jan. 17, 1982.
7 Sawt Filastin (Sanaa), Apr. 9, 1990.
8 Amman Television, Apr. 25, 1990.
9 Ad-Dustur, Apr. 17, 1990.
10 Secret letter from Gerard Lowther to Charles Hardinge, May 29, 1910, Lowther Papers, Foreign Office 800/193A, quoted in Elie Kedourie, Arabic Political Memoirs and Other Studies (London: Frank Cass, 19740, p. 256.
11 Theodor Herzl in Johannes Wachten, Chaya Harel et al., eds., Zionistishes Tageb++cher, 1895-1899 (Berlin: Ullstein, 1983), vol. II, p. 650. For a catalogue of Zionist and Israeli statements, real and alleged, see Ass'ad Razzouq, Greater Israel: A Study in Zionist Expansionist Thought (Beirut: Palestine Liberation Organization Research Center, 1970), esp. pp. 83, 87-90, 92, 96-97, 99-103, 144-145, 167-169, 178-81, 187, 209, 212-14, 230, 234, 24-, 243-245, 249-52, 264, 278-82, 286, as well as maps 3 and 4.
12 Robert Gessner, " Brown Shirts in Zion," New Masses, Feb. 19, 1935, p.11.
13 Damascus Television, Feb. 18, 1986.
14 Sa'd al-Bazzaz, Gulf War: The Israeli Connection, trans. Namir Abbas Mudhaffer (Baghdad: Dar al-Ma'mun, 1989).
15 Tyler Courier-Times-Telegraph, Feb. 5, 1983, reported in The Los Angeles Times, Feb. 6, 1983.
16 Sawt al-Kuwayt, Aug. 4, 1991.
17 As must its close cousin, Greater Armenia, an excusively Turkish phobia. One commentator, Necati Ozfatura, wroti in the nationalist newspaper T++rkiye (Sept. 29, 1991) that the Armenian president had secretly met with George Bush, and the two of them agreed on Armenian stretching from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, and the Perisan Gulf.
18 Conversation on Oct. 25, 1937, with H. R. P. Dickson, Foreign Office 371/20822 E7201/22/31, text in Elie Kedourie, Islam in the Modern World (New York: Holt Rinehart and Winston, 1980), pp. 72-73.
19 Speech, Mar. 26, 1964 quoted in Y. Harkabi, Arab Attitudes to Israel, trans. Misha Louvish (London: Valentine, Mitchell, 1972), p. 73.
20 Ibid., p. 74. The translation has been slightly altered.
21 Radio Cairo, July 22, 1965, and Al-Ahram, July 23, 1965, quoted in Eliezer Be'eri, Army Officers in Arab Politics and Society (Jerusalem: Israel Universities Press, 1969) pp. 399.
22 Hasan Sabri al-Khuli, Qadiyat Filastin (about 1966), pp. 19, 24, quoted in Harkabi, Arab Attitudes, p. 82.
23 Saad El-Shazly, The Atab Military Option (San Francisco, Calif.: American Mideast Research, 1986), pp. 17, 31.
24 Al-Akhbar, Jan. 31, 1990.
25 Al-Jamahiriya, July 19, 1991.
26 Al-Ahram, Feb. 23, 1990
27 More imaginatively yet, some Arabs suggested Israel would alter geography: according to one Egyptian, "Sadat even offered to divert the waters of the Nile into Israel," quoted in Sana Hassan, "Egypt's Angry Islamic Militants," The New York Times Magazine, Nov. 29, 1983, p. 138.
28 Jamahiriya Arab News Agency, Jan. 6, 1990.
29 Tripoli Television, Mar. 20, 1990.
30 Radio Damascus, Mar. 12, 1985.
31 Damascus Televsion, Mar. 17, 1990.
32 Radio Damascus, Mar. 8, 1989.
33 Kayhan International, May 30, 1991.
34 Kayhan International, May 8, 1990.
35 Radio Tehran, Apr. 20, 1990.
36 Ar-Ray al-Amm, June 14, 1990.
37 Sawt ash-Shab, Jan. 16, 1990.
38 Amman Television, Apr. 25, 1990.
39 As-Siyaba (Cairo), May 1991.
40 Naif al-Hadid, quoted in Jordan Times, Dec. 17, 1989. On page 25 of this issue, Hilal Khashan finds that 51 percent of Levantine Arabs fear a Greater Israel.
41 Muhsin D. Yusuf, "The Zionists and the Process of Defining the Borders of Palestine, 1915-23," Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies 15 (1991), p. 39.
42 Patrick Seale, "La Syrie et le processus de paix," Politique Etrang+¬re, Winter 1992, p. 785.
43 Reuters, Feb. 7, 1983.
44 Ash-Sharq al-Awsat, June 9, 1992.
45 Amman Television, Apr. 25, 1990.
46 Iraqi News Agency, May 7, 1990.
47 Radio Damascus, Mar. 8, 1989.
48 Damascus Television, Mar. 2, 1986.
49 Syrian Arab Republic Radio, Apr. 1, 1992.
50 The Grand Mufti of Palestine (Hajj Amin al-Husayni), Memorandum Submitted to His Holiness Pope Paul VI, Beirut, Feb. 28, 1964.
51 Al-Jumburiya (Baghdad), Mar. 2, 1991.
52 Iraqi News Agency, May 3, 1990.
53 Al Hamishmar, Jan. 17, 1989.
54 Patrick Seale, "Madha Yurid Hafiz al-Asad?" Al-Majalla, July 23, 1982, p. 22.
55 Radio Damascus, Mar. 8, 1990.
56 The Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 1990. Greater Syria is in fact a serious proposition, as I have argued at length in Greater Syria: The History of an Ambition (New York: Oxford University Press, 1990).
57 Quoted in Larry Cohler, "Rethinking Syria," Tikkun, Sept./Oct. 1992, p. 33.
58 An-Narab alArabi wad-Duwali, July 1, 1985, quoted in Martin Kramer, Hezbollah's Vision of the West (Washington, D.C.: Washington Instutite for Near East Policy, 1989), p. 55.
59 Radio Madrid, Feb. 26, 1991.
60 These steps derive in part from Daniel Pipes, "Dealing with Middle Eastern Conspiracy Theories," Orbis, Winter 1992, pp. 41-56.
61 Martin Sicker, The Making of Pariah State: The Adventurist Politics of Muammar Qaddafi (New York: Praeger, 1987), pp. 61-66.
62 Secretary of State James A Baker III, "Principles and Pragmatism: American Policy toward the Arab-Israeli Conflict," May 22, 1989.
63 Ad-Dustur, Apr. 17, 1990.

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« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2004, 04:30:31 AM »

I wholeheartedly agree, Peter, and when I get a chance to agree with you, I'll take it quick!  Wink

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peterfarrington: I find it as hard to fathom as Linus and his philo-papalism.

Uncool remark.  Huh

I apologise unreservedly and publically for this remark. It wasn't meant to be offensive but I can see that it has caused offense. Mea culpa!
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Crates of araq for sale! *hic*


« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2004, 08:49:38 AM »

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SAM:  You cannot refute any point I have made so you choose instead to attack my person?  
How enlightened of you. I'm glad to see that the fine art of AD HOMINEM attacks has not >been lost.

In case your short-term memory fails you, I am the individual fending off sorry-ass accusations of being a Jew-hater, no less from a fellow who makes vitriolic remarks about the 'base nature of the sons of Ishmael'.  Don't scuttle your ship too soon, squinky.

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NOW, if you are quite finished attacking ME,


Perhaps you should first consider the merit of your attack against the Palestinian Christian populace in your little 'nazi' comment (help me to see the 'tongue in cheek' in such a statement), which effectively takes their plight, and implicitly deems their oppositional stance against the Israeli state and Zionism--not to mention their wish for their own country and self-determination--to be on the same level as or worse than belief in racial superiority and support for organised mass killing.  This to many of your religious brethren would seem reason enough to label you a traitorous Judas to your supposed brothers in faith (Judas being a remark insultingly improper for those who respectfully disagree on the issue, but not for men with such comments, I reckon).

But I decided to refrain from following you in your ungentlemanly character assassination.  If I didn't, I may have subsequently sat on my moral high horse and challenged the other party to exculpate himself, while simultaneously whining about ad hominems.

Since I would never wish to consider hate to be the reason for your 'nazi' statement, I chalked this up instead on probable ignorance of the fact that Palestinian Christians are not exactly sacrally-annointed Zionists, kissing the Israeli flag, saluting Zionism, and cheerleading Israeli forces as said goons sweep through their towns, demolish their homes, and shoot their children*, along with the now ever-growing assortment of foreign protesters and journalists.  But if you are oblivious to this, then why am I wasting my time and board-space even talking to you?

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why not deal with the issue at hand - Do the Jews have the right to the land that was first given to them by God.


Non-Palestinian Jews certainly do not have any right to immigrate and settle in the country, much less to steal sovereignty over it and engineer an entire demographic change of the country, without the consent of its native inhabitants.  I hope you are familiar with this basic rule of civilized conduct.

Jews with divine right to the land?  No.  I expect that kind of faulty theology from fundamentalist troublemakers and vagante lunatics like yourself, not an inaccurate description, seeing your blurb about prophecy jumping out in the midst of your Zionist hyper-enthusiasm.

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second bought through blood sweat, tears and money?


Again, yes, with those of their victims I have no doubt.

I'm not saying this for the fun of it, you know.  It conveys some sort of meaning, and I don't want to spell out everything to you.

I'm afraid your failure to distinguish between the concept of ad hominem, and that of sarcastic replies has apparently made you fail to address my points or comprehend my answers.

Let me make it clear:

Your fairytale scenario does not register with me.  Land confiscation took place.  

Jews owned only about ten percent of the land given to them by the U.N. partition plan.  They had their ownership of land skyrocket by over 70% in the twinkle of an eye during the turmoil of '48.  Oh no, ladies and gentlemen, seraphic little Israel didn't proceed to just buy itself into existence (and either way, neither can it buy sovereignty, nor had foreign Jews any right to immigrate there in the first place); it had a military army--and an army of armed squatters—ready to move in.


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Tell me - OH ENLIGHTENED ONE - what would you have done instead?

I would have scrapped Balfour's bumbling exercise in playing footsie with what would become a catastrophically explosive situation that still rocks the Middle East—and the world beyond, I'm afraid.  Then Israel would have retained its holy meaning as a word lovingly enshrined in our religious hymnology, rather than as the name of something created by a gang of crooks and marauders whose successors get paid to launch expeditions of land piracy.  The Jolly Roger should have been made Israel's flag.  After all, one of the gits had an eyepatch.

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Israel does not displace inorder to settle -

Uh huhGǪ

GǪI'm sorry, she 'relocates', I mean.

Her settlements are certainly sitting on occupied land of some sort: my country, part of which happens to be the Syrian Golan Heights!  

What, anyway, has this reply of yours to do with my post to which you directed it, wherein I state that this ambition to bring foreign Jews to make a permanent trespass in the Middle East is seen at work in the latest news concerning Syria?

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they move people into UNOCCUPIED lands.
 

Oh yes, I'm sure they made certain it remained unoccupied.  Wouldn't want a belligerent old Pal in his home with a shotgun to get in the way.  Those villages must have been an April Fool's joke, and those old men on P.C.P., spinning tall tales.

Israel has deported and displaced Palestinians and confiscated their lands as sport throughout its life—very uncivilised behaviour--with its very genesis and founding and securing a Jewish majority being based on these tactics.  Granted not every settlement is on a point of land that had a population, but settlements are part of a gigantic apparatus that chokes Palestinians.  More settlements mean more roads and more checkpoints, further dicing the territories into swiss cheese and separating and isolating Palestinian communities.  The chokehold is in the taking of a vital resource: water.  And of course moving armed civilian populations (I never thought the sight of an armed civilian would upset me) into the occupied territories isGǪGǪan occupation.  

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As for land theft - get real.  According to original British mandate,
Israel was to have ALL of what Israel currently controls AS WELL AS what is now the >kingdom of Jordan.

Am I to understand that you are one of those nutcases who actually view as proper and wish to see Israeli hegemony imposed over the occupied territories, over Palestine in its entiretyGǪand beyond?  Was Jordan's rightful place according to you, under the control of foreign immigrants who in '48 failed to make up the majority of the territory of mandate Palestine?

Quote
SO tell me, why do you oppose their returning to their ancient homeland?


A weak attempt at brandishing a truism.  Yes, I am against the natives of a piece of geography being forced into accepting within their midst strange foreigners--be it Jews, Eskimos (of the variety that doesn't convert to Judaism, and then proceeds to 'return home'), or Martians--they make explicitly clear (witness the revolt against this state of affairs and the riots against the British in the '20s) they do not wish to enter their country, much less have handed over to them.  This is without mentioning, mind you, that at the time they were still a minority within British-designated borders, and you, Max—correct me if I'm wrong--, seem to think that control of then TransJordan in its entirety was rightfully theirs from the start (ha!).

Furthermore, I find myself more opposed to the roller-coaster ride mentioned above when it also helps to facilitate the passing of a crazy law that permits every Tom, Dick (nice filter, administrators), and Harry with a yarmulke, regardless of race, ethnicity, culture, or nationality (and without regard for the social friction this creates; yes, folks, there isn't such a thing as one Jewish people-the phrase connotes as much an international background as the word 'American') to be eligible for permission to waltz in and buy a condo (this includes South American Indians who have responded favourably to Jewish prosyletisers; I'm sure intrepid Brother Max will put his highly-flaunted research acumen to work and locate the Ha'aretz feature story to which I refer), while an old geezer who still carries the keys to his house, is not allowed to return to his own property because some Polish prick had decided to make it his home.  This stripping of private property rights is of course natural behaviour for a parasitical, socialist state like Israel, committed to a leftist, collectivist ideology like Zionism whose implementation in the Holy Land consists of confiscation and damage of property (Church property included), destruction of houses (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/1995_israel_demolish_homes_video_01_19_03.htm ), the routine killing of civilians*, and the construction of a goddam Berlin Wall, with the condo fortresses of foreign imposters from Brooklyn and the godd*m Amazon masquerading as the people of this land, put on the 'right' side of said wall, and with its construction involving such unpleasantries as ripping through monastic property (Christians and churches be damned) and damaging ancient Christian sites http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3226793/ --and it all comes with its expected bucket of spin and euphemisms (do you support 'transfer', Max?).  Who can expect anything less from a country that has had terrorists like those of Irgun who perpetrated atrocities in '48 and prior, amongst them setting off bombs in Arab population centers, become prime ministers and government leaders?  They were no doubt perfect for their jobs, as Sharon--the butcher who visited slaughter on Lebanon--unequivocally is.

I still haven't forgotten your execrative charge of Jew-hatred, not to mention your assigning me to the category of base creatures, and the insinuated charge of sin of a religious character against God in allegedly 'choosing' adherents of a certain religion (you of course conveniently forgot the side of the Christians, which happens to be Palestinian) over 'God's choice' of people in this matter (and all matters, I take it).  Now to return back to the issue of Israel's sordid policy of social engineering, I will at this point challenge you to respond to my opposition to this by declaring it to be an unambigious confirmation of my alleged hatred of Jews; I will also wish you to clearly direct this same rebuke at every member of this board here who has the slightest reservation towards this government immigration policy, since according to what your words imply, anyone who is not a Zionist must be a Jew-hating reprobate.  Otherwise, you will please immediately RETRACT the slanderous insinuations you made on the board.   I also would like to know if anyone on this board, like me, is so filled with seething hatred towards anything Jewish that he would object to the turning of a small, poor corner of the world into an American-style (albeit discriminative in the matter of religious/ethnic/cultural [still debated in the Jewish community] identity) immigrant country, with all its resultant social ramifications and radical change of populations (this does not include the matter of cultural abominations such as Jerusalem Gay Pride parades).

Now, onto the British: the British were charged by the League of Nations with trustee power and the responsibility of looking after the welfare of the inhabitants, not the coveters, of Palestine—of the human beings under their care--and the interests of—that's right--no one else, particularly those trying to buy them off.  They had no moral right or authority whatsoever to compromise the Palestinians' right to self-rule over their land, or to promise the surrender of sovereignty over one dunum of the country to a bunch of unwelcome strangers (factor out the Palestinian Jews here and note the word 'strangers', as I do not recognise a false Jewish/Palestinian/Arab dichotomy) who decided to move in and take what wasn't and isn't theirs to take.  Neither did they have any authority to permit a surge of immigration that the natives did not desire.  Self-professed hegemons do not law make, but only a coercive authority create (King Charles I's words before the judges who sent him to the chop are apt: "I see that I am before a power." [ie. a power and not the law]).  Might does not make right.  So theft obviously remains theft, regardless of what a mandate authority or international body deigns to implement as a territorial settlement.  Mr. Max here may seem to think that had the British 'originally agreed' to give Israel the entire Middle East, it would render as rediculous any labelling of this arrangement as theft (so by that argument, one must conclude that Jordan is currently stolen Israeli land; Jordan occupied byGǪJordanians—what staggering news!), but that sort of logic only works in the twilight zone and fantasylands, not in the sensible world of morality and of teachers who can execute proper spelling.

Quote
You can hate Israel and the Jewish people all you like and choose muslims over the people God called the apple of his eye, I for one will not.


I have no religious obligation towards the Jews, except to pray for them.  Certainly not some half-baked notion of duty to allegiance to them in politics!  

I believe however that they have a special place in God's eye, and that He takes special delight in their conversion to the Way of their promised Messias.

Of course, why should I have anything against Hebrew blood?  A lot of it flows in some Palestinian Christians, after all—what, you thought that was Arab blood?  

Most Arabs are descendants of Arabised natives of the Levant.  We are culturally Arabs, not necessarily so ethnically, and the Palestinians are not all Arabs culturally either.  The folks in Palestine are not your imaginary invaders from the Hijaz.  Some probably have more claim to natural descent from Jacob than a German Ashkenazim.

And of course, there are the native Palestinian Jews, some having lived for numerous centuries there, and God only knows how many of them have been swallowed up by your international tsunami.  Of course, the thing that is Israel had a tremendous impact on developments in the region, and they include the disappearance of Arab Jews from our (and their) countries, where they have lived for centuries.  Am I happy about this?  I am very disappointed.

I honestly believe you belong with evangelical fundamentalists, my friend.  But, I suppose that being a vagante gives one licence to hold onto eccentric and exotic beliefs, such as your seeing Zionist Israel in some rightful place in prophecy—that such a theological idea is utter B.S., the Apostolic Churches in Palestine take great pains to make clear to people.

I owe reverence to Israel?  Yes, love for and devotion to the people of Israel; that would be us, the Church, the Christians who have lived for centuries in this Holy Land, not those who have left the fold by rejection of the Messias.

My allegiance in this matter ultimately boils down to the side whose case moral law supports, regardless of the faith of its members.  I find the Jewishness  of the other side to be incidental (substitute Israel with a state for Christians or Star Wars fans from all over the world, and see if my attitude will change one bit).  As a native of the Levant, all I see are a bunch of invading interlopers, who unfortunately are quite effectively armed and carry a penchant for killing people to carry out their plans (THAT, I have certainly seen).

You have the final word, as I am not prepared to protract this discussion any further.  I hope it includes your retraction of your accusation, and apology.  Please endeavour to say something yourself rather than pelt the thread with yet another salvo of articles from propaganda central.

In IC XC
Samer

*






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« Reply #123 on: January 05, 2004, 05:11:12 AM »

God gave the Jews the promised land. He also took it away from them.
God has permitted the terrible persecution of Jews over the centuries, once upon a time it used to wake them up and call them to repentance, You'd think that after 2000 years of this they would realise that maybe Jesus was the Messiah and that they had killed Him*

There has been attrocity committed against the Jews in the name of Christ, against others too (Christians even!) but on the whole I believe Jews have been well treated by Christians throughout history. If you think they deserve being given their own land in recompense then why not give them California? Heck, give them Greece, with the current birthrates there won't be any Greeks here after a few more generations!

Br. Max, I'm afraid I find your thread Prayers for the Peace of Jerusalem a bit distasteful considering the parallel animosity displayed in this thread. First deal with the issue of peace with your fellow Christian Samer. Until you do I will not be able to view the other thread as anything other than false piety, particularly as you posted the Franciscan prayer of peace shortly after your sarcastic remarks to Samer.

John.



*I know that I identify with the Jews each time I fail to follow God's will. I understand that each time I sin, I am hammering the nails into His hands and feet.
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« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2004, 08:11:05 AM »

It's a good thing the Zionists didn't take up the offer of establishing their "Jewish" state here in Australia in 1944. They would've kicked us off our property or bulldozed my house.
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« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2004, 08:59:35 AM »

Don't call me a leftist, but I have to say that using David Horowitz as your news source strikes me as unwise.

These people are leftists, but a little perspective never hurt.
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« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2004, 10:19:19 AM »

Quote
There has been attrocity committed against the Jews in the name of Christ, against others too (Christians even!) but on the whole I believe Jews have been well treated by Christians throughout history.

Treated well when forced to live in Ghettos?  Treated well when they were prohibited from owning land? Treated well when their children were taken from them and force converted?  Treated well when they were slaughtered en mass for being Jewish?  Treated well when they were forced from their homes time and again?  Treated well when they were banned from teaching their faith?  Or were they treated well by the Tzars who enslaved them as surfs?

Until we can admit our collective guilt and complacency in the crimes Christians have perpetrated against the Jewish people - we are little better than those Jews who stood at the Trail of Christ and cried out “Crucify Him!”

As for my “animosity,” it is directed at one thing and one thing only - those who would DEFEND the crimes of murderers and terrorists as justifiable.  Israel has as much right to exist as America, Canada, New Zealand, Great Brittan, France, Italy, Egypt, Syria, etc.  Lets not forget that each of these nations consists of people who DISPLACED the “native peoples.” unlike these other nations, the Jews did not take Israel by force, but rather through diplomacy. They did not kill people to get homes, but bought their homes.  They did not force the Arabs out - but invited them to stay and work TOGETHER for a bright and peaceful future.  The funniest thing is, that Israel has great relations with all the nations who recognize their right to exist.  When Egypt recognized Israel, Israel returned the Sinai desert  - oil and all - to Egypt.

You cannot sit here across the world and pontificate about how evil Israel is for doing what YOU would do given the same situation - defending yourself from those who have said time and again that they would not rest, that they would not stop until every last person of Israel was dead.
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« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2004, 10:20:12 AM »

Iran's Earthquake of Jew-Hatred
By Dennis Prager
Townhall.com | January 5, 2004


If you want to understand the Middle East conflict, Iran has just provided all you need to know.

A massive earthquake kills between 20,000 and 40,000 Iranians, and the government of Iran announces that help is welcome from every country in the world . . . except Israel.

This little-reported news item is of great significance. It begs commentary.

Israel not only has the world's most experienced crews in quickly finding survivors in bombed out buildings, it is also a mere two-hour flight from Iran. In other words, no country in the world would come close to Israel in its ability to save Iranian lives quickly.

But none of this means anything to the rulers of Iran. The Islamic government of Iran has announced to the world that it is better for fellow countrymen and fellow Muslims -- men, women and children -- to die buried under rubble than to be saved by a Jew from Israel.

That is how deep the hatred of Israel and Jews is in much of the Muslim world.

Hundreds of millions of Muslims -- Arab and non-Arab, Sunni and Shi'a -- hate Israel more than they love life. Leaders of the Palestinian terror organization Hamas repeatedly state, "We love death more than the Jews love life." And now, Iran announces that it is better for a Muslim to asphyxiate under the earth than be rescued by a Jew from Israel.

Naive Westerners -- which includes most academics, intellectuals, members of the international news media, and nearly all others on the Left -- refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of the Arab/Muslim hatred of Israel and Jews. Yet, there is no hatred in the world analogous to it. Not since the Nazi hatred of Jews has humanity witnessed such hate.

That is why finding survivors from earthquakes, creating a Palestinian state and life itself are all far less important in much of the Islamic and Arab worlds than killing Jews and destroying the little Jewish state.

That is why Arab newspapers run articles by Arab professors describing how Jews butcher non-Jewish children to use their blood for holiday meals.

That is why Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad could get a standing ovation from the heads of every Muslim country when he told them "the Jews rule the world by proxy."

That is why Palestinian parents celebrate the suicide terror of their sons -- the joy of killing Israeli families far outweighs the pain of the death of their child.

Western naifs like to believe platitudes such as "Deep down, all people are really the same," "All people want peace," and the great untruth of multiculturalism that no culture is morally superior to another. That is why they choose not to face the truth about the Nazi-like hatred that permeates the Arab/Muslim world and the consequent moral gulf that exists between it and Israel. It shatters too many of their illusions.

Surely the Iranian refusal of rescuers from the Jewish state ought to help all these people acknowledge the unique hatred that is at the root of the Arab-Israeli dispute and recognize that it is therefore a conflict unlike any other on earth.

So, too, the immediate and sincere Israeli offer of rescuers to Iran should make the moral gulf between Israel and its enemies as clear as day. Despite the fact that Iran is the greatest backer of anti-Israel (and anti-American) terror and despite the fact that Iran repeatedly declares that Israel must be annihilated (in other words, seeks a second Jewish Holocaust), Israel offered to send its people to save Iranian lives.

The two reactions -- Iran's preference for Iranian deaths to Israeli help and the Jewish state's instinctive offer to help save Iranian lives -- ought to be enough anyone needs to understand the source of the Middle East conflict. But they won't. Because those who are anti-Israel or "evenhanded" are not so because of the facts, but despite them.

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« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2004, 11:02:21 AM »

There is no doubt Jews have suffered throughout recent history at the hands of persecutors, but so have lots of other minority groups.

The secular state of Israel exists, however it got there. Some kind of settlement needs to be worked out among the various contending parties in that region.

What I think is most unhelpful and dangerous is the idea that the modern secular state of Israel exists by divine right while the other states in the region are mere human "options."

There is no New Testament prophecy concerning a rebirth of national Israel following its destruction by the Romans. The present Israeli state was the creation of men.
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« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2004, 11:49:16 AM »

linus: every nation exists by divine mandate.  No man on earth has power save it is given them by God.

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« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2004, 12:06:05 PM »

linus: every nation exists by divine mandate.  No man on earth has power save it is given them by God.



Okay, then modern Israel has no more claim on its territory than any other Middle Eastern state.

Besides, the whole "divine mandate" thing can easily be taken too far. Some if not most states exist not because God directly wills their existence but because He permits them to exist.
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« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2004, 08:59:48 PM »

If you think they deserve being given their own land in recompense then why not give them California? Heck, give them Greece, with the current birthrates there won't be any Greeks here after a few more generations!
Quote
The problem with giving them Greece or California is simple - they have no connection to, or desire for that land.  What more, to give them California an existing thriving culture would have to be displaced.  To give them Greece, while you note that birthrates are on decline would also require the displacement of an existing culture.  There was no Palestinian culture.  There were Jews and Arab and even Christians living in the land, but no unique culture.  No people prior to the establishment of Israel even called themselves Palestinians.

 The Jews have just as much right to that land as anyone else.  They have LEGALLY migrated there and set up their homes.  The lies of land stealing and other crimes that are perpetuated about Jews (such as how Jews drink the blood of children in their services), those claims are what upset me.  How would you feel if similar claims were made about Orthodox Christians?

Quote
Br. Max, I'm afraid I find your thread Prayers for the Peace of Jerusalem a bit distasteful considering the parallel animosity displayed in this thread. First deal with the issue of peace with your fellow Christian Samer. Until you do I will not be able to view the other thread as anything other than false piety, particularly as you posted the Franciscan prayer of peace shortly after your sarcastic remarks to Samer.



I’m sorry if I have come off harsh or belligerent in the discussion of this topic - I assure you that I harbor no ill will towards anyone here - not even Sam or Tom - well maybe vicki ( but who is not hostile towards her?? Wink ) - so I am sorry to any that have felt that way.
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« Reply #132 on: January 06, 2004, 11:49:52 AM »

I would like to recommend a book.

It is T.L. Frazier's A Second Look at the Second Coming (Conciliar Press, 1999).

The Foreword to the book was written by Fr. A. James Bernstein, a former Jew and one of the co-founders of "Jews for Jesus" back in the late Sixties.

Frazier's book is the best I've read on eschatology and deals with some of what has been discussed here.
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« Reply #133 on: January 06, 2004, 12:21:14 PM »

I would like to recommend a book.

It is T.L. Frazier's A Second Look at the Second Coming (Conciliar Press, 1999).

The Foreword to the book was written by Fr. A. James Bernstein, a former Jew and one of the co-founders of "Jews for Jesus" back in the late Sixties.

Frazier's book is the best I've read on eschatology and deals with some of what has been discussed here.

One of the next books on my list.  Read the foreward and a couple pages from Ch. 1.  Looks like a great read.  Our choir director used to be his around 10 years ago.
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« Reply #134 on: January 06, 2004, 03:29:53 PM »

Archbishop Averky wrote a patristic commentary on the Apocalypse which is well worth a read. It has a great preface by Father Seraphim Rose.

Only $10 at Amazon and worth $50.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0938635670/qid=1073417367//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-2590052-7912636?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
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« Reply #135 on: January 06, 2004, 04:23:28 PM »

...If we cannot master respect and tolerance, I sure as heck don't know how we'll ever even come close to knowing Christ's love, much less being an instrument of it.

peace,

-Justin, the concerned Canadian

p.s. sorry for this being my first post, I assure you I can actually be an enjoyable person Smiley

Thanks, Justin! You jumped right in a thread where I dare not even tread!
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« Reply #136 on: January 06, 2004, 06:44:58 PM »

I'm reading that very book right now, Sub-Deacon Peter.  Another good read is "A Second Look at the Second Coming."  The author came to speak at my parish a few months back...I'd highly recomend the book.
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« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2004, 06:46:15 PM »

Didn't realize Linus already recomended the same book...Poles are always a little slower...
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« Reply #138 on: January 15, 2004, 11:38:08 AM »

Suicide Mother
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 15, 2004


You all recall the world famous court ruling by our King Solomon? The one about the two mothers each claiming the live baby was hers? As you recall, Solomon said he would chop the babe in half.  The true mother said, "No, give him to her, just save his life." You see, she preferred he be raised by some other strange woman, not his mother, rather than die.

All of which brings us to the Palestinian analogue of that momentous ruling. Yesterday a Palestinian mother of two young children, Rim al-Riashi, blew herself to bits as the seventh Palestinian suicide bomber woman, in the Gaza Strip. She murdered four Israelis, and wounded 9, two of them quite seriously.  

You see, she preferred that her two young children be raised by a stranger rather than forego the pleasure of murdering Jews through her bombing them via herself. She had set off the metal detector, claimed she had a metal implant in her leg, wept that she really needed to pass through the checkpoint, showed her ID proving she was mother of two youngsters, and the compassionate guards let her pass through.  She then set off the detonator.  Murdering the guards that had showed her pity.

Oh and you know how Colin Powell wants to offset anything Israel spends on its Security Fence from US aid to Israel? You might want to write him and President Bush and ask how come the US has never offset from its aid to Egypt all the money the Egyptians are spending on building illegal tunnels into Gaza that allow the PLO to smuggle in explosives, like the sort that yesterday were used by the Palestinian Solomon.
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« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2004, 10:07:52 AM »

By Phyllis Chesler

Are Palestinian female suicide bombers active members of a Death Cult, or unwilling participants in it? Are they religious fanatics, Western-style revolutionaries, or clinically depressed human beings facing No Exit lives? Have they been indoctrinated and brainwashed by master seducers or have they been brutally forced into it?

These are necessary questions to ask when contemplating the emergence of a new female form of suicide bomber. Certainly, some female Palestinian suicide bombers have "freely" chosen the murderous martyr's path: most likely, such women have had close male relatives who have died in the war that the Palestinians have declared against the Israelis.

But evidence also suggests that the Palestinians have created yet another form of Arab honor killing. For some time now, reports have reached my desk about Palestinian girls and women being recruited, seduced, and trapped, by older male terrorists in very woman-specific ways.

For example, I have been told that in one instance, the chosen Palestinian girl was unmarried and pregnant. She was offered the chance to "cleanse" her honor by blowing herself and Jews up. Her family spirited her out of the West Bank to safety in Europe. I have also been told that some Palestinian masters of mass murder have themselves had affairs with vulnerable young Palestinian girls in order to compromise their "honor" and to season them, pimp-style, for martyrdom. Hard facts are hard to come by, anecdotes abound.

Journalist Barbara Victor, the author of the recent book about Palestinian female suicide bombers, Army of Roses, and playwright Glyn O'Malley, whose play, Paradise, is on the same subject, have both dealt with some of the earliest Palestinian female suicide bombers whose lives were stunted by oppression.

Wafa Idris, the first Palestinian suicide bomber, was probably in a clinical depression. Her first and only child had been a stillborn and, as a result, she was now sterile. Her husband, who was also her first cousin, had divorced her over this and had already taken a second wife. She was mocked by family and friends and she understood that she had no future in Palestinian society. As a divorced and infertile woman, she was doubly "tainted." Her bleak prospects--due to Islamic and Palestinian misogyny and not to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--were used to trap her into redeeming her dishonor by becoming a murdering martyr.

We cannot say that these women (or, for that matter, their male counterparts) are making "free" choices. No one is offering them the presidency of their country, an all-paid scholarship to a prestigious university--or, as a third choice, the opportunity to kill and die at a tender age. Their choices are "forced." They are probably not political extremists or revolutionaries in the Western sense. They have grown up in a tribal, Islamic society in which women are expected to sacrifice themselves in terrible and medieval ways.

Most recently, the case of Reem al-Riyashi suggests a similar and horrifying scenario. Several Israeli sources have discovered that this young mother of two very young children "was forced to carry out the suicide attack as punishment for cheating on her husband." Allegedly, al-Riyashi's husband was a Hamas activist and her lover was a Hamas operative who had carried out the love affair with the express purpose of recruiting her. According to the British Sunday Times, al-Riyashi's husband himself drove her to the border crossing.

This is unbelievable--and tragic. Had these men threatened to kill her children if she refused this mission? I would not be surprised.

Whatever the tragic circumstances, it is important to understand that the coercion of women by men to become suicide bombers is not an aberration in the Middle East. Myth aside, Islam is the largest and most savage practitioner of religious and gender apartheid on the planet. If you attend a college in the Western world, you'd have no way of knowing this--perhaps this is because many Western multi-cultural ideologues have muted their criticism of Islamic misogyny in order to propagandize for the victory of the Palestinians over the Zionists.

Traditionally, gender apartheid under Islam includes female genital mutilation, compulsory veiling, arranged marriage, sequestration, polygamy, stonings for alleged adultery, approved wife-beating, and Arab honor killings in which raped girls and women are killed by their father or brother for the crime of "dishonor" they have brought upon their family.

It is this context that compels us to stop romanticizing these homicide bombers--and presenting them as heroes.

I understand what the Israeli ambassador to Sweden felt when he saw the exhibit that glorified yet another Palestinian female suicide bomber: Hanadi Jaradat, who killed 22 innocent Israeli civilians, both Christian Arabs and Jews. Jaradat's smiling, serene face floated above a pool of civilian blood. The artwork had been done by an expatriate Israeli artist and installed at the entrance to a building that is to house an upcoming conference against genocide. The Swedes had promised the Israelis that the Middle East conflict was not going to be part of the conference.

But this art exhibit found a way to bring the Middle East conflict into the conference--in a way that justified and glorified homicidal/genocidal suicide bombers who, upon closer inspection, may be committing a "forced" suicide as their only way out.


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Phyllis Chesler, Ph.D, is the author of twelve books, including the international bestseller WOMEN AND MADNESS. Her most recent book is The New Anti-Semitism: The Current Crisis and What We Must Do About It.
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« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2004, 11:25:58 AM »

The Lifting of the Veil
By Alexis Amory
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 23, 2004


Earlier this week 20,000 women and girls clad in black sheets and headscarves topped by blue, white and red headbands, surged along the streets of central Paris, directed by hectoring men on loudspeakers, to protest the proposed French ban on the wearing of headscarves in state schools.  Similar protests took place in Stockholm and other European capitals in solidarity - and, as there’s something about wearing a shapeless sheet that renders Atkins a moot point, these gals were plenty solid.  They held aloft banners on which were variations of “France est ma patrie; la voile est ma vie!”  (“France is my country.  The scarf is my life.”)   In London, men and women protested (separately, of course) carrying signs proclaiming  "secularism has failed the world" and chanting for "female dignity" and an end to "secular vanity."


The proposed ban is being condemned by many of France’s Muslims (there are five million Muslims in France, eight per cent of the population; the largest in Western Europe) as a form of "religious harassment." Native French see it as about time.

France is a secular society.  State schools were started specifically as a counter-influence to early church schools. The government is using this to mask its real concern that the wearing of the headscarf by schoolgirls is being used by project-dwelling Muslims as an act of aggression against the host society.


The presence of the hijab in the classroom is not an issue in schools where the presence of eight or 10 headscarf-wearing Muslim girls in a classroom is barely noticed.  The problem is in the capital and the large industrial cities that are ringed with public housing that has majority Muslim populations.  The inhabitants, many second or third generation welfare recipients, are not the Arab middle class Muslims who come to the US for education, or to emigrate, and whose wish it is to integrate into the host society.


French Muslims are in the main from N Africa and emigrated en masse after France granted Algeria independence.   The second and third generation harbor ill-defined grudges against the host society  and engage in the behaviors of idle, disaffected young men elsewhere in the West, except with the toxic addition of religious hatred .


There are suburbs outside Paris, Lille, Lyons and other big industrial cities where Muslims make up the vast majority of the school-going population.  Some classrooms may have two or three native white French girls and 19 or 20 headscarf clad Muslims.  And the presence of the scarf and all that it implies in the way of religious imperialism has finally lit the tinderbox of the clash of values between the enlightened West and the bigotry of some Muslims.


First, it is divisive.  Given the large majority of Muslim girls in the classrooms in industrial areas, it marks French girls whose families have lived on French soil since time immemorial, as “different” and strangers in their own country.   Second, France has equality between the sexes, and wearing the scarf - in a Western secular country, as opposed to an Islamic society, where it is the norm and thus unremarkable - subconsciously gives males the advantage of not being “different”.   Third, it puts the onus of male behavior onto the shoulders of girls.  Who can blame a male for becoming inflamed if a girl is so bold as to reveal her hair?  France considers this an unfair burden on schoolgirls.


The French government could turn a blind eye - indeed, has turned a blind eye - to the last two aspects, but it is the hijab-clad majority, with its implied criticism of native French girls as being “shameless” that is now being used as an excuse for young male Muslim aggression against girls, and for Muslim aggression against the host society.


In the projects where native French are very much in the minority, native French girls are being bullied into adopting the headscarf.  Girls who are “bold” enough, or disrespectful enough of the Muslim majority, are being gang-raped by Muslim adolescents on the grounds that they need a lesson.  This is part of a new, rapidly developing “tradition”.  Teaching white girls a lesson for not wearing a headscarf not only has its own argot, but there is a mobile phone ring tone associated with it, too.   Small wonder that the parents of white daughters in the projects insist on them donning a scarf to leave their homes.  So the aggressive fist of militant Islam reaches out to control the host community.


In any event, the issue of the headscarf is, in a sense, a phony one.  It is not a religious requirement.  Nowhere is it required in the Koran, which merely directs that women dress “modestly”.   In the suburbs of the French industrial cities, it is a cultural badge.  A trademark.  


The 20,000 human spams who poured through the streets of Paris were insisting (“France est ma patrie; le voile est ma vie”) that the hijab is their choice.  But, the French state wants to know, is it?  Or is it worn at the insistence of male members of the family who do not want their daughters “looked at” by boys and men?  How many 12-year old Muslim girls are daring enough to disregard the orders of a male family member?  Are they allies in their own repression?  To be fair, protecting the rights of all their citizens is the business of the French government.


And the ban is on school property alone.  They are free to wear the hijab anywhere else.


There are those who predict that Chirac will back down over this, especially as France has just agreed to make bathing in municipal swimming pools, at certain hours, single sex only in response to demands from the Muslims.


The hijab issue, though, has taken off on a life of its own and Chirac will have noted that he has the backing of most of the 92% of French voters who are not Muslim.  Television talk panels have been breathtaking in their candor on the issue - far more bracing than anything that would appear on politically correct American or British TV.  


On a TV panel a few nights ago, there was the standard lefty Christian churchman apologist for Islam contending that the ban was “racist”.  OK.  Standard fare from lefty churchmen.  Pull the string and listen to a dog collar spout multi-culti boilerplate.  There were various French commentators arguing for the ban.  There was the standard issue overweight Muslim woman swathed from head to toe in what looked like white parachute silk who argued her points with a superior sneer on her face; there was a chic, slender Muslim woman, made up to the nines and hair teased out to there, who opined that the veil is crap and a well-dressed, polished and articulate Muslim man who argued politely for the hijab.  The host was even handed and intelligent.  It made for very interesting TV.


Will the government back down?  The media interest tells me they won’t.  In addition, the left has been strangely muted on the issue.


Sadly, having brought up religious symbolism in the classroom, the government is obliged to be even handed and the downside is, Jewish boys will have to abandon the skullcap during school hours, and Sikh boys, very much a tiny minority in the French population, will have to abandon their turbans, which are, unlike the scarf in Islam, an integral part of their religion.  This is a shame, because Jews and Sikhs are achievers at school and are peaceable and industrious contributors to the French economy and French society.   To be totally even-handed, the ban will also exclude the wearing of “large crosses”.
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« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2004, 12:16:04 PM »

OH FRANCE: Try this: CONTROL YOURSELVES OR YOU ARE OUT OF PUBLIC HOUSING. ONE CRIME....ONE FELONY, BY ANY MEMBER OF YOUR HOUSEHOLD....AND NO MORE GOVERNMENT FREEBIES. See how fast it stops.

Appalling.
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« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2004, 01:08:11 PM »

Vicki: WHAT?? That would put the left out of power.  And we BOTH know that the left needs political power to force the rest of us to buy into thier failed and flawed programs. Be they the French left or the American Left.
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« Reply #143 on: January 23, 2004, 01:14:37 PM »

Max: is there a French right any more?
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« Reply #144 on: January 23, 2004, 01:16:29 PM »

vicki: wow that looks funny . . . .

UM, I actually think there are 3 or 4 remaining . . . ( I almost said left Wink )
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« Reply #145 on: February 02, 2004, 01:48:37 PM »

The following article reveals quite a different picture of Israel than that painted by her enemies.





http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/389616.html

Census: One quarter of Israel's children are Muslims  
 
By Moti Bassok
 
 
 
Four hundred and fifty thousand children below the age of 14, one quarter of Israel's total youth population, are Muslims, the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) announced yesterday. Israel's total Muslim population stands at 1.7 million, 16 percent of the overall population, at the beginning of 2004.

 
 
 
 
According to data released by the CBS on the occasion of the Eid al-Adha festival, the Arab sector's growth rate over the past number of years stands at 3.4 percent. This figure is 2.4 times larger than the Jewish sector's growth rate, which stands at 1.4 percent. The growth rate among Israel's Muslim population is one of the highest in the world, including the rates of neighboring Arab states.

Nearly all the growth in the Muslim population, 98 percent, is attributed to natural growth (more births than deaths).

Only three percent of Israel's Muslim population is over the age of 65, while 12 percent of the Jewish population is older than 65.

Israel's Muslims live in some 186,000 households, some 10 percent of Israel's total households. 5.3 individuals live in the average Muslim household, compared to 3.1 individuals in the average Jewish home. At least one nuclear family lives in most Muslim homes in Israel. In just four percent of Muslim households live individuals without any family connections, compared to more than 20 percent in the Jewish sector.

Most Muslim households are traditional families comprising two parents and children. Four percent of families are headed by a single parent with at least one child aged 17 or younger, compared to seven percent in the Jewish sector.

Most Israeli Muslims live in primarily Arab communities, particularly when speaking of communities with less than 20,000 residents.

Jerusalem has the largest number of Muslim residents in Israel, and the 210,000 residents make up 20 percent of the country's total Muslim population and 31 percent of the capital city's general population.

Some 41,500 Muslims live in Nazareth, 37,900 in Umm el-Fahm, 34,000 in Rahat, 30,300 in Taibeh, 23,900 in Tamra, 21,300 in Sakhnin and 17,500 in Shfaram.

Forty percent of Muslims in Israel, more than 410,000 residents, live in the north, making up 36 percent of northern Israel's total population. More than 150,000 Muslims live in the Haifa district and another 130,000 Muslims live in each of the central, Tel Aviv and southern regions.

According to a population forecast made by the CBS, Muslims will make up 20 percent of Israel's population by 2020. Muslims will comprise 85 percent of the total Israeli Arab population by 2020, compared to 82 percent today.  


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« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2004, 10:00:07 AM »

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12018

All I can say is - oy vey . . . .
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« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2004, 12:51:42 PM »

The following article reveals quite a different picture of Israel than that painted by her enemies.

Census: One quarter of Israel's children are Muslims  
 
By Moti Bassok
 
 . . .
 
According to data released by the CBS on the occasion of the Eid al-Adha festival, the Arab sector's growth rate over the past number of years stands at 3.4 percent. This figure is 2.4 times larger than the Jewish sector's growth rate, which stands at 1.4 percent. The growth rate among Israel's Muslim population is one of the highest in the world, including the rates of neighboring Arab states.

Nearly all the growth in the Muslim population, 98 percent, is attributed to natural growth (more births than deaths).

Only three percent of Israel's Muslim population is over the age of 65, while 12 percent of the Jewish population is older than 65.

. . .

According to a population forecast made by the CBS, Muslims will make up 20 percent of Israel's population by 2020. Muslims will comprise 85 percent of the total Israeli Arab population by 2020, compared to 82 percent today.  


This is a powerful argument for outlawing birth control among the Jews of Israel! Smiley  Humanae Vitae doesn't seem so unreasonable in a Jewish context!

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« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2004, 07:48:37 PM »

JBC: the only problem I have with  the CR view of Birth control is their choice to equate it with abortion and thus with murder.
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« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2004, 07:49:03 PM »

oops RC not CR
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« Reply #150 on: February 03, 2004, 09:35:59 PM »

JBC: the only problem I have with  the CR view of Birth control is their choice to equate it with abortion and thus with murder.


First, some forms of artificial birth control are abortion in the eyes of the RC.  The birth control pill can act as an abortificant as well as preventing pregnancy.  

Second, if you mean "equate" in the sense that using artificial birth control and having an abortion are both mortal sins, then you're correct.  However, the Church's reasoning behind condemning both abortion and the use of contraception are very different.  The Church condemns the use contraception because it "renders procreation impossible."  A husband and wife are required to engage in "reciprocal self-giving" which is not possible (according to the RC's point of view) when contraception is used.  Abortion is condemned because the fetus is believed to be a life.  

BTW, abortion isn't technically "murder."  The phrase "abortion is murder" is thrown around because it's simplistic but it's not technically accurate.  Abortion is the "loss of fetal life."
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« Reply #151 on: February 03, 2004, 10:33:55 PM »

First, some forms of artificial birth control are abortion in the eyes of the RC.  The birth control pill can act as an abortificant as well as preventing pregnancy.

I am sorry I made the Humanae Vitae comment that you obviously took seriously.  I was trying to be ironic, sort of another way of emphasizing that the Jews of Israel are going to have a "population problem" in relation to the Moslems of Israel.    In retrospect it seems to me to have been a flippant remark on my part.  Muchas apologias!  Nevertheless, if you want to discuss "birth control" I'm willing to participate though I am not an expert on the issue. [I'll bet there is a pun somewhere in my last sentence!  Oops!  Flippant again!]

Yes, both the high dosage pill (the older pill) and the low dosage pill (the newer pill) are likely abortifacents at least some of the time, the newer pill more frequently so than the older one.  The phenomenon, of course, is "breakthrough" in which ovulation occurs anyway, subsequent fertilization takes place, but implantation of the blastocyst in the endometrial wall is prevented due to the hostle chemical environment of the womb.  The I.U.D. is NOT a birth control device--it is always an abortifacent.  I guess that leaves the condom and cervical cap (don't know if this latter one is still used) and perhaps spermicides.

Quote
Second, if you mean "equate" in the sense that using artificial birth control and having an abortion are both mortal sins, then you're correct.  However, the Church's reasoning behind condemning both abortion and the use of contraception are very different.  The Church condemns the use contraception because it "renders procreation impossible."  A husband and wife are required to engage in "reciprocal self-giving" which is not possible (according to the RC's point of view) when contraception is used.  Abortion is condemned because the fetus is believed to be a life.

Are you addressing Bro. Max's comments here or is this directed to me?  

In response to Bro. Max's comments, I have never heard the RCC equate forbidden methods of birth control with murder.  Then again, I may have missed something.    The RCC's objection to birth control is not just found in Humanae Vitae.  It is also found in Pius XI's Casti Connubi.  CC considers the unitive and procreative aspects of marriage as inseparable as does HV but is less "liberal" [relatively speaking] than HV in that it places greater emphasis on the procreative ends of marriage.  

Quote
BTW, abortion isn't technically "murder."  The phrase "abortion is murder" is thrown around because it's simplistic but it's not technically accurate.  Abortion is the "loss of fetal life."  

You lost me on this one.  Could you explain it a bit more?  Abortion is not "murder" because the secular law makes it legal.  Is that what you mean?  Technically, that's true, I think.

Again, sorry if I opened up a can of worms.  I guess I should be more careful with my remarks!

Jim C.



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« Reply #152 on: February 03, 2004, 11:11:24 PM »


BTW, abortion isn't technically "murder."  The phrase "abortion is murder" is thrown around because it's simplistic but it's not technically accurate.  Abortion is the "loss of fetal life."  

that "fetal life" you are referring to is a living soul. Murder is defined at M-W.com as: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.  Abortion the taking of a another persons life with maile and aforethought.  It IS murder.
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« Reply #153 on: February 03, 2004, 11:33:27 PM »

that "fetal life" you are referring to is a living soul. Murder is defined at M-W.com as: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.  Abortion the taking of a another persons life with maile and aforethought.  It IS murder.


I got the definition I quoted from the old Catholic Encyclopedia.  Abortion can either be intentional or unintentional.  For example, a miscarriage is a "spontaneous abortion."  

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« Reply #154 on: February 03, 2004, 11:35:13 PM »


In response to Bro. Max's comments, I have never heard the RCC equate forbidden methods of birth control with murder.


Neither have I, which is why I thought it was an odd statement.  He's not catholic, though, so how would he know?  

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« Reply #155 on: February 04, 2004, 01:37:41 AM »

Neither have I, which is why I thought it was an odd statement.  He's not catholic, though, so how would he know?  

I'm not intending to speak for Bro. Max but I know a lot of Catholics that don't know much.  In other words, being a Catholic, or perhaps more appropriately saying you're one is no sort of "knowledge" credential nowadays.

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« Reply #156 on: February 04, 2004, 01:12:40 PM »

I'm not intending to speak for Bro. Max but I know a lot of Catholics that don't know much.  In other words, being a Catholic, or perhaps more appropriately saying you're one is no sort of "knowledge" credential nowadays.



Quite right.  I'm a perfect example of this. Roll Eyes

You also don't have to be Catholic, nominally or in true faith, in order to know what they believe.
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« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2004, 01:25:44 PM »

MsG.: funny, I thought the same thing.  Of course, teaching in at a CATHOLIC school could never expose some one to RC beliefs. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2004, 08:44:19 PM »

Of course, teaching in at a CATHOLIC school could never expose some one to RC beliefs. Roll Eyes

I know a Continuing Anglican priest who teaches biology at a Catholic High School in New Jersey.  He has told me of horror stories there.  Basically he was saying that "Catholic" high school was anything but Catholic!  Scary!





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« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2004, 08:59:08 PM »

JBC: depends upon the school.  The one I taught in over in Ireland was WONDERFUL.  Kids were well behaved, and cared about the things they were learning, academic as well as religious (they had me teach 7th form religion while I was there).  On the other hand, the High School I went to had a Catholic feeder school - and the kids coming out of St. Theresa's by and large anti-religion and totally against God.
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« Reply #160 on: February 05, 2008, 01:48:33 PM »

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?
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« Reply #161 on: February 05, 2008, 02:34:59 PM »

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

And a big howdy to you too, AlexZello, whoever you are.  May we direct you to the thread on "Introductions" first?
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« Reply #162 on: February 08, 2008, 12:46:52 AM »

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?
uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict
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