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samkim
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« on: January 30, 2010, 08:38:17 PM »

What is the origin of the pointy habits worn by Armenian monks? And what is its relation to the habits worn by Eastern Orthodox monks?
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Salpy
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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 09:32:58 PM »

I think you are talking about the "veghar," which is the cowl worn by monks, celibate priests and bishops in the Armenian Church.  (The "gh" is pronounced a little like the French "r," but a little smoother.)

Here is a picture of our Catholicos with two Archbishops, wearing their veghars, at a meeting with the governor of California:




Is this the headgear that you are asking about?

In front, it comes down to the eyes, and I am told that it is to protect the monk from temptation.  In back it goes down to the waist and, along with the pointed top, that is supposed to protect him from the devil.  I once heard my priest say that the top is pointed so demons cannot rest on top of the monk's head.  The back is protected because the devil always strikes from behind.  At least that is what I have heard.  Of course this is all symbolic.  Ultimately, it symbolizes the monk's detachment from worldly life.  I also heard one person say the pointed top is supposed to represent Mt. Ararat.   Smiley

It could be there is other symbolism.  Like I said, this is just what I have heard. 

I'm not sure of the origin; I don't think anyone knows.

Perhaps if vasnTearn sees this, she can give more information. 




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Orthodox11
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 10:07:55 PM »

I'm not sure of the origin; I don't think anyone knows.

The veils worn by monks, celibate priests and bishops in the EO tradition are said to have their origins in the First Ecumenical Councils, where many of the bishops attended wearing veils to cover disfigurements suffered during the persecutions. Perhaps the Armenian version is of the same origin?

Syrians have pointy turbans (unlike the flat Coptic ones). Maybe the Armenian Church's Syrian origins explains their love for pointy hats?
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samkim
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 02:30:35 AM »

I think you are talking about the "veghar," which is the cowl worn by monks, celibate priests and bishops in the Armenian Church.  (The "gh" is pronounced a little like the French "r," but a little smoother.)

Here is a picture of our Catholicos with two Archbishops, wearing their veghars, at a meeting with the governor of California:




Is this the headgear that you are asking about?

In front, it comes down to the eyes, and I am told that it is to protect the monk from temptation.  In back it goes down to the waist and, along with the pointed top, that is supposed to protect him from the devil.  I once heard my priest say that the top is pointed so demons cannot rest on top of the monk's head.  The back is protected because the devil always strikes from behind.  At least that is what I have heard.  Of course this is all symbolic.  Ultimately, it symbolizes the monk's detachment from worldly life.  I also heard one person say the pointed top is supposed to represent Mt. Ararat.   Smiley

It could be there is other symbolism.  Like I said, this is just what I have heard. 

I'm not sure of the origin; I don't think anyone knows.

Perhaps if vasnTearn sees this, she can give more information. 






Those are what I mean.
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vasnTearn
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 05:58:28 AM »

I'm not sure of the origin; I don't think anyone knows.

The veils worn by monks, celibate priests and bishops in the EO tradition are said to have their origins in the First Ecumenical Councils, where many of the bishops attended wearing veils to cover disfigurements suffered during the persecutions. Perhaps the Armenian version is of the same origin?

Syrians have pointy turbans (unlike the flat Coptic ones). Maybe the Armenian Church's Syrian origins explains their love for pointy hats?

Pointy habits are also worn by the "schimniks" in the Russian Church. So, I think the origin of our pointy hats comes from the habits that first monks living in the monasteries wore. Syrians have pointy turbans but the ordinary head-covers of their monks are not pointy. In the past also the Armenian nuns or brothers of the monasteries wore pointy hats. As for the origin of the first Armenian monks' habit, maybe they took it from the monks of Sebastea or Caesarea, or maybe from the Syrians, as the name for monks' hat in Armenian was "kusita", an Aramaic word. The word which Salpy mentioned and which is used today, "veghar", is not as ancient as "kusita"; both "veghar" (velar) and "kngugh" (kngul)* used for that same hat are from Latin ("velarium" and "cucullus"), most probably borrowed through Greek and not directly from Latin.

* The Armenian sound "gh" (pronounced as French or German "r") did not exist until perhaps 9-10th centuries. Before that the letter "lat" had been some variant of the sound "l", that is why the Armenians today say Ghazaros instead of Lazaros, Ghukas instead of Lukas etc.
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griego catolico
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2013, 03:13:33 PM »

Pardon my ignorance...

What is the difference between a veghar and a pakegh?

Is this a pakegh?:




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vasnTearn
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 05:28:53 PM »

Pardon my ignorance...

What is the difference between a veghar and a pakegh?


Here are two photos of Vardapet Komitas. In the first photo he is wearing a veghar, in the second - a pakegh.





Veghar is used by celibate clergy only. Pakegh is used by both celibate and married clergy.

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griego catolico
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 07:04:09 PM »

vasnTearn,

Thank you for your reply!  Smiley

Here are photos of the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople wearing what looks like a pakegh but it is pointed:



Is this type still called a pakegh?  Is it only worn by hierarchs?



 
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vasnTearn
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 07:19:58 AM »

vasnTearn,

Thank you for your reply!  Smiley

Here are photos of the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople wearing what looks like a pakegh but it is pointed:

Is this type still called a pakegh?  Is it only worn by hierarchs?

It is still a pakegh, whether it's flat or pointy. But the pointiness is not connected with high ranks. Even our Catholicos wears a pakegh which is not pointy. It's a matter of taste. Most Armenian clergy today, whether hierarchs or priests and deacons, prefer wearing flat pakeghs, but there may be such who like Mesrob Patriarch prefer the old style pointy ones which were more popular in the Armenian Church in the 19th century. Pakegh, this hat  of the clergy which is for every day use, didn't exist in the Armenian Church until 1845 when first the Armenian Patriarchate of Constaninople introduced it. Its shape (with its pointiness) is thought to be taken from the inner part of veghar, because veghar is of two parts: one is that which we can see, and the other is inside. In the old photos one can see many Armenian priests and other clergy wearing pointy pakeghs.

These are Armenian priests who lived in the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th. They wear pointy pakeghs:




And these are the last two Armenian Catholicoses with flat pakeghs:





 
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Alpo
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 08:00:03 AM »

Fail.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:01:03 AM by Alpo » Logged
Alpo
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 08:00:49 AM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 08:17:10 AM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

Beards are traditional in all Eastern churches.
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vasnTearn
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 08:21:43 AM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

LOL What a strange question. Today most of Armenian clergy prefer having short beards (ask them why) but this is not the "Armenian tradition". There are still bearded both priests and monks. While in the past, ALL Armenian clergy had long beards, naturally. That is why in old photos of Armenian clergy one can see a lot of beard Smiley I'll try to find now photos of bearded Armenian clergy of our own days Smiley

Hieromonk Fr Ghevond (Arm. Patr. of Jerusalem, from Armenia):


Hieromonk Fr Vardan (Armenia):


Priest Fr Kyuregh (Armenia):


Priest Fr Ghazar (Armenia):


Priest Fr Grigor (Armenia):


Priest Fr Smbat (Armenia):


« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:22:44 AM by vasnTearn » Logged
Alpo
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 06:01:35 PM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

LOL What a strange question.

Well not really on this board. We have already covered Armenians' heretical hats so now it is time to discuss about facial hair. Leave no stone unturned!
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vasnTearn
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 06:33:16 PM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

LOL What a strange question.

Well not really on this board. We have already covered Armenians' heretical hats so now it is time to discuss about facial hair. Leave no stone unturned!

Sorry, I don't understand you.
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Alpo
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

LOL What a strange question.

Well not really on this board. We have already covered Armenians' heretical hats so now it is time to discuss about facial hair. Leave no stone unturned!

Sorry, I don't understand you.

IIRC there was a thread about Armenian clerical hats being too Latin. Hence the joke about heretical hats.
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vasnTearn
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 06:59:32 PM »

Are bearded priests and monastics part of Armenian tradition too? For some reason I have assumed that it's only EOs and Copts who tend to have bearded clerics.

LOL What a strange question.

Well not really on this board. We have already covered Armenians' heretical hats so now it is time to discuss about facial hair. Leave no stone unturned!

Sorry, I don't understand you.

IIRC there was a thread about Armenian clerical hats being too Latin. Hence the joke about heretical hats.

Oh OK. Those "too Latin" hats are of bishops only and they are really Latin, because were taken from the Latins during the times of Cilician Armenia. By the way, also the "crowns" (hats of the priests) were taken from others, this time the Byzantines, and almost all the other priestly vestments too. Even in the 14th century in some parts of Armenia the Armenian monastics refused to use those liturgical colourful and festal clothes of clergy. But later these vestments became our own too. So, one may say that almost all priestly vestments used by the Armenians are of non-Armenian origin, not only the "too Latin" hats Smiley
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:01:33 PM by vasnTearn » Logged
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