Author Topic: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?  (Read 9535 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2011, 02:19:33 PM »
^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.

In any case, I do not think Maximus' theology is all that problematic. From what I have read about him he seems orthodox.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:19:54 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,359
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2011, 02:27:45 PM »
^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.
EOs already do use that language.

Did you mean that you're afraid OOs will start doing it?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:28:02 PM by William »
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,072
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2011, 02:28:52 PM »
I do have some problems with Maximus not least because I think he failed to understand the Orthodox miathelite position and that all those who speak of one will are tarred with the same brush. I think he prevented a proper reconciliation taking place.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2011, 02:29:34 PM »
^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.
EOs already do use that language.

Did you mean that you're afraid OOs will start doing it?
I am afraid they will use that language WHILE being united to our Church. Thus, the OOC might be influenced by Leonian Christology.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2011, 02:30:34 PM »
I do have some problems with Maximus not least because I think he failed to understand the Orthodox miathelite position and that all those who speak of one will are tarred with the same brush. I think he prevented a proper reconciliation taking place.
I do realize that he hindered reconciliation. But would you say that his Christology itself was substantially orthodox?
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,072
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2011, 02:34:42 PM »
I think that the christology of the post-553 Chalcedonians is generally and substantially Orthodox enough. The are other issues which have prevented reunion.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2011, 02:38:11 PM »
^As I have mentioned in my Nine Chapters thread, had some Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a duality of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago. It would seem as if the Melkite Patr. Cyrus believed in the Pseudo-Dionysian Formula "one theandric energy", rather than a heretical form of monoenergism.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:40:52 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,072
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2011, 04:23:35 PM »
I am just about to start reading Will, Action and Freedom - Christological Controversies in the Seventh Century by Cyril Hovorun.

I hope that it will be an interesting read.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,586
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2011, 05:56:25 PM »
had some non-Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a singularity of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago.
:D
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Severian

  • My posts on this site don't necessarily reflect my current position on any given subject.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,642
  • Pat. St. Severus, pray for my family & friends
    • St. Severus of Antioch's Writings
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox Christian
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2011, 05:58:03 PM »
had some non-Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a singularity of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago.
:D
Touche! :laugh:
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice. Pls email me, don't send PMs.

Offline Father Peter

  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,072
    • Coptic Orthodox Church - Patriarchal Diocese
  • Faith: Coptic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchal Diocese
Re: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2011, 06:18:18 PM »
Unfortunately the issue was always the status of Chalcedon since agreement could be reached on the substance of the faith.
My ministry and blog - http://www.stgeorgeministry.com

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington