OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 02, 2014, 12:32:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is Maximus the Confessor a Saint?  (Read 4989 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,224


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« on: January 29, 2010, 02:14:41 AM »

Forgive my ignorance, but is Maximus the Confessor is considered to be a Saint by our Non-Chalcedonian Churches?

I ask this because I know that he opposed monothelitism (good), but defended the Chalcedonian Christology of two natures (not good.)

Are his writings used by our Churches?

Again, I apologiz for my ignorance.



Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
88Devin12
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,864



« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2010, 02:24:33 AM »

I know this probably doesn't help a lot, but I am currently reading "Orthodox Prayer Life" by Matthew the Poor, and he references St. Maximos the Confessor. (the translation is from SVS and reads Saint, but it may not be original to the work)
However, he also references several EO & Catholic saints not shared by OO.
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2010, 03:05:16 AM »

I've never heard of Maximos being on any OO calendar, nor have I heard of any authority speaking out for him being a saint (as Pope Shenouda III has seemingly done for Augustine of Hippo). So I would have to conclude that the answer is "no".
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 03:06:33 AM »


I ask this because I know that he opposed monothelitism (good),

I don't know that all forms of monothelitism that were combated by Maximos and condemned at Constantinople III were legitimately heretical. For instance, the idea of one theandric will, which was taught by Severus of Antioch, was condemned at Constantinople III.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2010, 03:44:41 AM »

I agree with deusveritasest.

As in all aspects of the controversy, every word matters. I do not believe that the Chalcedonians understood what the OO meant in their teaching on the will by this time. I don't want to say much more and make this post outside the AUP. Maximos may have been combating a false view of the will withn EOxy but he really did not understand what the OO meant.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Gabriel
Agnostic Pessimist
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 138


« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 06:24:59 PM »

Isn't that the same Maximos as in the Coptic Litany of the Saints?

"My lords, the Roman Fathers, Sts. Maximos and Domitios...."

Or is that a different one?
Logged

My soul waits for the Lord
More than those who watch for the morning.
Yes, more than those who watch for the morning.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 06:28:36 PM »

It's a different one.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 04:56:27 PM »

I've always wondered who those Roman Fathers were.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 05:09:17 PM »

More info about them is here ....

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-_4eC4SxuH8C&pg=PA192&dq=maximus+and+domitius&cd=9#v=onepage&q=maximus%20and%20domitius&f=false

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 05:13:09 PM »

Thank you.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,097


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 01:28:58 AM »

No, he's not a saint in the OO Church.  Only contemporary OO clerics have started to use material by St. Maximus the Confessor (along with St. Gregory Palamas and St. John Damascene) as added resources of Orthodox teaching.  So slowly, it seems their teaches are being integrated in OO teaching.  But he or any of the others I mentioned are not officially recognized as canonized saints in any OO Church.

Sometimes you see HH Pope Shenouda quote St. John Damascene, and then I saw HG Bishop Youssef (Coptic bishop of the Southern US Diocese) use St. Gregory Palamas to explain how to partake of the divine nature.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 01:30:55 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2010, 07:12:04 PM »

No, he's not a saint in the OO Church.  Only contemporary OO clerics have started to use material by St. Maximus the Confessor (along with St. Gregory Palamas and St. John Damascene) as added resources of Orthodox teaching.  So slowly, it seems their teaches are being integrated in OO teaching.  But he or any of the others I mentioned are not officially recognized as canonized saints in any OO Church.

Sometimes you see HH Pope Shenouda quote St. John Damascene, and then I saw HG Bishop Youssef (Coptic bishop of the Southern US Diocese) use St. Gregory Palamas to explain how to partake of the divine nature.

That's rather heartening for me, given my Byzantine patrimony.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Eleos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Posts: 251


« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 08:10:06 PM »

St Maximus suffered greatly for not accepting imperial attempts at uniting Christians at the cost of sacrificing the fulness of Christ's united divine and human nature.  In the end, non-christians prevailed and this divide continues today. Feel the pain.  It's not over.  Christians unite and love each other as God loves you.

Modification: St Maximos is a saint for the Love of God only.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 08:22:38 PM by Eleos » Logged

"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 08:25:31 PM »

No, he's not a saint in the OO Church.  Only contemporary OO clerics have started to use material by St. Maximus the Confessor (along with St. Gregory Palamas and St. John Damascene) as added resources of Orthodox teaching.  So slowly, it seems their teaches are being integrated in OO teaching.  But he or any of the others I mentioned are not officially recognized as canonized saints in any OO Church.

Sometimes you see HH Pope Shenouda quote St. John Damascene, and then I saw HG Bishop Youssef (Coptic bishop of the Southern US Diocese) use St. Gregory Palamas to explain how to partake of the divine nature.

While your first paragraph does make me sad, your second paragraph excites me. I like knowing that the teachings of later EO saints are seen, at least by some bishops of the OO churches, as Orthodox. I think it demonstrates how close our churches truly are to each other, and gives us great hope for reunification.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
geovar
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Indian Orthodox Church
Posts: 56


« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 06:24:02 PM »

On January 21 from the Calendar of the Syrian Orthodox  , the name Maximus the Confessor is written.

The calendar that I have is the publishers in India and because of the relationship with the Syrian and Indian Church , I bought it.

In that there are many names which I could see was locally to Syrian orthodox Church in Antioch  by searching in internet ( Example :- Mor John III the Patriach of Antioch in 873) , but majority of them I don't know who they are.

Now I am no sure if this the same Maximus the confessor mentioned in the post or  some one else?

Can some one help?
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,632



« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 06:42:08 PM »

Now, IIRC, the myaphisites of Syria even wrote a blasphemous life of this saint, which is still extant, accusing him, among others of being born of adultery, of being of Jewish parentage etc.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 06:55:18 PM by augustin717 » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 06:53:40 PM »

Now I am no sure if this the same Maximus the confessor mentioned in the post or  some one else?

I think it's safe to say that this is most likely not the Maximus spoken of in the OP, yet I cannot figure out who alternatively it would be.  Undecided
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 07:12:24 PM »

Why would it be blasphemous to state that anyone was born either of adultery or of Jewish parents?

Surely that says nothing about the person himself?

There are lives that say that St Severus was born of pagan parents, and others that he was born of an important Christian family. I am not sure that either possibility say anything definitive about the quality of the person.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,097


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 07:35:21 PM »

On January 21 from the Calendar of the Syrian Orthodox  , the name Maximus the Confessor is written.

The calendar that I have is the publishers in India and because of the relationship with the Syrian and Indian Church , I bought it.

In that there are many names which I could see was locally to Syrian orthodox Church in Antioch  by searching in internet ( Example :- Mor John III the Patriach of Antioch in 873) , but majority of them I don't know who they are.

Now I am no sure if this the same Maximus the confessor mentioned in the post or  some one else?

Can some one help?

If you ever find out please let us know.  If anything, it wouldn't be the first time when Chalcedonian saints have been in a list of OO saints as well.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 08:01:19 PM »

Why would it be blasphemous to state that anyone was born either of adultery or of Jewish parents?

Surely that says nothing about the person himself?

There are lives that say that St Severus was born of pagan parents, and others that he was born of an important Christian family. I am not sure that either possibility say anything definitive about the quality of the person.

Father Peter

I agree. And yet some people use these things that way. I'm sure you're familiar with a common connotation of the phrase "bastard child".
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 03:58:28 AM »

I guess that when I read negative comments about St Severus' family (not that being a pagan is necesarily negative in context) I understand that it is a comment being made in a polemical sense. I don't like such polemics, but I don't particularly find it blasphemous.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
mkevinc
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 2


« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 11:59:32 PM »

I was happy to discover this thread of conversation, as Maximus the Confessor is quickly becoming a focus of academic interest for me.    The posts in this thread indicate that Maximus is not venerated as an OO saint.  But I am wondering how the OO regard his understanding of Christian doctrine.  One of the posts in this thread said that his work is sometimes referenced in OO circles.  If his writings are considered correct and acceptable by the OO church, then could he not be considered one of the few post-Chalcedonian theologians whose work is universally recognized?  And if that is the case, might his work be useful in reconciling the various branches of Christianity's family tree?   
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2011, 12:08:47 AM »

But I am wondering how the OO regard his understanding of Christian doctrine.  One of the posts in this thread said that his work is sometimes referenced in OO circles.  If his writings are considered correct and acceptable by the OO church, then could he not be considered one of the few post-Chalcedonian theologians whose work is universally recognized?  And if that is the case, might his work be useful in reconciling the various branches of Christianity's family tree?   

You are misunderstanding. It was never said that all of his writings are accepted as representative of the Orthodox faith.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
mkevinc
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 2


« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2011, 02:18:04 AM »

So my question now is this: are all the writings of Maximus the Confessor accepted as representative of the Oriental Orthodox faith?  Thank you so much for your responses.  It is teaching me a great deal. 
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2011, 03:20:44 AM »

So my question now is this: are all the writings of Maximus the Confessor accepted as representative of the Oriental Orthodox faith?  Thank you so much for your responses.  It is teaching me a great deal. 

Depends on who you ask. At the very least it I think it is agreed upon that it is not representative of the traditional Oriental Orthodox theological terminology. Whether or not it is representative of the substance of the OO faith is an issue that would probably be debated among OO.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 01:26:55 AM »

I heard that in one of his letters he "refuted" the "errors" of the Blessed Patriarch Saint Severus. Pfft... ya right  Roll Eyes

Nevertheless, I respect him. He undoubtedly suffered a lot fighting the monothelite heresy, but, he will never and should never be an object of Oriental Orthodox veneration.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 01:30:04 AM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 04:00:12 AM »

I heard that in one of his letters he "refuted" the "errors" of the Blessed Patriarch Saint Severus. Pfft... ya right  Roll Eyes

Nevertheless, I respect him. He undoubtedly suffered a lot fighting the monothelite heresy, but, he will never and should never be an object of Oriental Orthodox veneration.

*thumbs up*

Unfortunately there apparently already are some OO who venerate him.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 05:04:36 AM »

I heard that in one of his letters he "refuted" the "errors" of the Blessed Patriarch Saint Severus. Pfft... ya right  Roll Eyes

Nevertheless, I respect him. He undoubtedly suffered a lot fighting the monothelite heresy, but, he will never and should never be an object of Oriental Orthodox veneration.
As DV points out, he already is.  I've seen him cited as an authority by many OO, including the episcopate.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 05:13:43 AM »

Now, IIRC, the myaphisites of Syria even wrote a blasphemous life of this saint, which is still extant, accusing him, among others of being born of adultery, of being of Jewish parentage etc.
No, the work is Monothelite/Maronite.
Maximus the Confessor. Andrew Louth, pp. 14-5.
http://www.syriac.ca/Library/Still%20to%20be%20added/from%20fr%20ken/Maximus%20the%20Confessor.pdf
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 10:22:36 AM »

I heard that in one of his letters he "refuted" the "errors" of the Blessed Patriarch Saint Severus. Pfft... ya right  Roll Eyes

Nevertheless, I respect him. He undoubtedly suffered a lot fighting the monothelite heresy, but, he will never and should never be an object of Oriental Orthodox veneration.
As DV points out, he already is.  I've seen him cited as an authority by many OO, including the episcopate.
Well, he might be a helpful source of theological teaching, but, that doesn't mean OO faithful ask him to intercede for them, and if they do do that, I think it's erroneous.

As I said though, I respect him. But, I'm not sure it's appropriate we venerate him.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 05:02:05 PM »

Quote from: Eleos
Modification: St Maximos is a saint for the Love of God only.
I am in no position to say who or who isn't a Saint in the eyes of God. I would not have a hard time believing that he is in fact a Saint of Christ considering all that he suffered to destroy the monothelite heresy. However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus. I have no problem with my hierarchs quoting him as a source of Orthodox teaching, but, that is not the same thing as kissing an icon of him and asking him to pray for us.

God bless,
Severian
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 05:02:38 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 05:13:04 AM »

However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus.

Who attacks who is irrelevant to the Faith and the identity of the Saints. If Maximus was a sanctified member of the Church of Christ and glorified by God at his death then he is a Saint and veneration is proper to him. To frame it in the context of him attacking other Saints would seem an attempt to avoid really addressing the matter of his relation to the Church (which the false ecumenists common in the OO community are all too wont to do).
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2011, 11:01:16 AM »

However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus.

Who attacks who is irrelevant to the Faith and the identity of the Saints. If Maximus was a sanctified member of the Church of Christ and glorified by God at his death then he is a Saint and veneration is proper to him. To frame it in the context of him attacking other Saints would seem an attempt to avoid really addressing the matter of his relation to the Church (which the false ecumenists common in the OO community are all too wont to do).
Maybe I should rephrase that...He shouldn't be revered due to his condemnation of us(I.e. the OOC)He probably thought we were legitimate monophysites, monothelites, monoenergists, etc.

God bless,
Severian
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 05:33:23 PM »

However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus.

Who attacks who is irrelevant to the Faith and the identity of the Saints. If Maximus was a sanctified member of the Church of Christ and glorified by God at his death then he is a Saint and veneration is proper to him. To frame it in the context of him attacking other Saints would seem an attempt to avoid really addressing the matter of his relation to the Church (which the false ecumenists common in the OO community are all too wont to do).
Maybe I should rephrase that...He shouldn't be revered due to his condemnation of us(I.e. the OOC)He probably thought we were legitimate monophysites, monothelites, monoenergists, etc.

God bless,
Severian

I still don't know that that would be enough to justify not venerating him if he were truly part of the Church.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 08:48:06 PM »

However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus.

Who attacks who is irrelevant to the Faith and the identity of the Saints. If Maximus was a sanctified member of the Church of Christ and glorified by God at his death then he is a Saint and veneration is proper to him. To frame it in the context of him attacking other Saints would seem an attempt to avoid really addressing the matter of his relation to the Church (which the false ecumenists common in the OO community are all too wont to do).
Maybe I should rephrase that...He shouldn't be revered due to his condemnation of us(I.e. the OOC)He probably thought we were legitimate monophysites, monothelites, monoenergists, etc.

God bless,
Severian

I still don't know that that would be enough to justify not venerating him if he were truly part of the Church.
Why? It sounds like a good reason. No one who labels the Church and her Saints "heretical monophysites" is worthy of glorification.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2011, 09:38:31 PM »

However, I don't think it is appropriate for OO to revere this man as a Saint due to his condemnation of St Severus.

Who attacks who is irrelevant to the Faith and the identity of the Saints. If Maximus was a sanctified member of the Church of Christ and glorified by God at his death then he is a Saint and veneration is proper to him. To frame it in the context of him attacking other Saints would seem an attempt to avoid really addressing the matter of his relation to the Church (which the false ecumenists common in the OO community are all too wont to do).
Maybe I should rephrase that...He shouldn't be revered due to his condemnation of us(I.e. the OOC)He probably thought we were legitimate monophysites, monothelites, monoenergists, etc.

God bless,
Severian

I still don't know that that would be enough to justify not venerating him if he were truly part of the Church.
Why? It sounds like a good reason. No one who labels the Church and her Saints "heretical monophysites" is worthy of glorification.

If you're saying that he labeled the whole Church that way, then you would appear to be labeling the OOC the Church and therefore excluding Maximus from it. That's precisely what I was trying to get at. I think denying that he could be a Saint on the basis of his insults would only make sense if you believe he was insulting the Church in general.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 09:39:49 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2011, 09:50:36 PM »

If you're saying that he labeled the whole Church that way, then you would appear to be labeling the OOC the Church and therefore excluding Maximus from it. That's precisely what I was trying to get at. I think denying that he could be a Saint on the basis of his insults would only make sense if you believe he was insulting the Church in general.
As I said, we are in no position to say who, in God's eyes, is not a Saint. Mother Teresa was a very good woman, and arguably a Saint in God's eyes, but that does not mean she wasn't in some sort of state of error. I also would like for the EOs and OOs to reunite, (I know you probably think I'm a heretical ecumenist for thinking that, lol) but Maximus decided to polemically label our church and one of our most important Saints a(s) heretic(s), and for that reason it is not appropriate for us to venerate him.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 09:52:28 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2011, 10:14:13 PM »

As I said, we are in no position to say who, in God's eyes, is not a Saint.

I never suggested that we are. What I was talking about was who the Church has the authority to recognize as a Saint (not declare, God establishes the Sainthood, the Church just recognizes some of those who have been established as Saints).

I also would like for the EOs and OOs to reunite, (I know you probably think I'm a heretical ecumenist for thinking that, lol)

No. I'm tired of people suggesting that just because I have more rigorous terms for how and when reunion should happen that I don't desire reunion.

but Maximus decided to polemically label our church and one of our most important Saints a(s) heretic(s), and for that reason it is not appropriate for us to venerate him.

I don't think this style of thinking holds water. And Maximus himself is actually one of the examples for why that is the case. Maximus basically polemically judged the whole of the East to have fallen into heresy (the Chalcedonians in Monothelitism). Did the Eastern Chalcedonians refuse to venerate him once they realized that he was right? No. Did the Syrian Orthodox refuse to venerate Saint Cyril once they realized that he was right about the Syrians by and large falling into the heresy of Nestorianism? No. Just because someone has attacked a particular church of the Church doesn't mean that they are not worthy of veneration, whether or not they are wrong. The only way that such thinking makes any sense is if they had attacked the Church in general itself. To suggest otherwise suggests the motivation of pride.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:14:29 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 10:39:04 PM »

I never suggested that we are. What I was talking about was who the Church has the authority to recognize as a Saint (not declare, God establishes the Sainthood, the Church just recognizes some of those who have been established as Saints).
I never said that you suggested that, I was clarifying my own point.

Quote
No. I'm tired of people suggesting that just because I have more rigorous terms for how and when reunion should happen that I don't desire reunion.
Sorry I meant no offence to you. But you did say that you didn't recognize Chalcedonian Holy orders as valid. It was based on that statement of yours that I thought you were completely against the EO-OO unity.

Quote
I don't think this style of thinking holds water. And Maximus himself is actually one of the examples for why that is the case. Maximus basically polemically judged the whole of the East to have fallen into heresy (the Chalcedonians in Monothelitism). Did the Eastern Chalcedonians refuse to venerate him once they realized that he was right? No. Did the Syrian Orthodox refuse to venerate Saint Cyril once they realized that he was right about the Syrians by and large falling into the heresy of Nestorianism? No. Just because someone has attacked a particular church of the Church doesn't mean that they are not worthy of veneration, whether or not they are wrong. The only way that such thinking makes any sense is if they had attacked the Church in general itself. To suggest otherwise suggests the motivation of pride.
Yes, but unlike OOs and Maximus, the East Syrians renounced their Nestorianism and followed Cyril. Unlike the OOs and Maximus, the East Chalcedonians renounced their monothelitism and followed Maximus. Unless we have come to the conclusion that we were wrong and that Maximus is right their is no reason for us to venerate him. The Syrians have no problem admitting that their ancestors were wrong for adhering to Nestorianism and the EOs have no problem admitting their ancestors were wrong for adhering to monothelitism, we OTOH, do not believe our ancestors were wrong and thus Maximus condemned us unjustly. Just my POV. But I fail to see why we're dragging this on. Can't you understand why I don't think that someone who (falsely) labelled the OOC and her Saints heretical is worthy of veneration?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2011, 10:43:38 PM »

Sorry I meant no offence to you. But you did say that you didn't recognize Chalcedonian Holy orders as valid. It was based on that statement of yours that I thought you were completely against the EO-OO unity.

It is true. I don't recognize their orders as Sacred. And it is true that I am against what is typically passing as reunion efforts in the past few decades. But no, that doesn't mean that I don't desire reunion.

Yes, but unlike OOs and Maximus, the East Syrians renounced their Nestorianism and followed Cyril. Unlike the OOs and Maximus, the East Chalcedonians renounced their monothelitism and followed Maximus. Unless we have come to the conclusion that we were wrong and that Maximus is right their is no reason for us to venerate him. The Syrians have no problem admitting that their ancestors were wrong for adhering to Nestorianism and the EOs have no problem admitting their ancestors were wrong for adhering to monothelitism, we OTOH, do not believe our ancestors were wrong and thus Maximus condemned us unjustly. Just my POV. But I fail to see why we're dragging this on. Can't you understand why I don't think that someone who (falsely) labelled the OOC and her Saints heretical is worthy of veneration?

Oh, here we go, I've thought of a better example. Pope Saint Theophilus. It seems eventually the Church determined that the way he treated Saint John Chrysostom was very wrong and that he had improperly labelled Chrysostom a heretic, but nonetheless he is still on the Coptic Calendar of Saints along with Chrysostom.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:48 PM »

Didn't Chrysostom support the Origenist monks? In which case his condemnation by Saint Theophilus was justified. I think if that was the case we recognize that Chrysostom was wrong for communing Origenists, but, venerate him for other reasons. But for the sake of understanding you better, why do you think that we should avoid venerating Maximus? (Because I know you don't think we should honor him)

When I was doing my report on St Cyril for school I read that Cyril only lifted Chrysostom's anathemas due to his dogmatic orthodoxy in contrast to Nestorius' rubbish.

Here's why I don't think we should venerate him

1. He's a Chalcedonian Saint who solved Chalcedonian problems
2. He condemned the OOC and her Saints as heretics 
3. He's outside the canonical boundaries of the OOC and he condemned her
4. If we venerate him, disregarding points 1-3, we might as well venerate Leo of Rome due to his opposition to Eutychianism and ignore his persecution of St Dioscorus, in the same way Maximus is to be venerated because he opposed monothelitism despite his labelling St Severus a heretic.

 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 11:16:41 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 10:56:55 PM »

Null, aw man! I screwed up my entire post.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 10:57:24 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 11:45:07 PM »

Here's a good example.:

Cyril considered the East Syrians a part of the Church even though he believed them to be in error. When he reunited with them he still allowed them to venerate Theodore for the sake of unity. He did not believe Theodore was worthy of such veneration because he labelled the Church of Alexandria heretical (Theodore did other things, but, you get the idea). He would not have allowed his own flock to venerate Theodore.

[Very ecumenical] OOs consider the EOs a part of the Church even though we believed them to have been in error [due to their acceptance of Chalcedon]. If we reunite with them we will still allow them to venerate Maximus for the sake of unity. We do not believe Maximus is worthy of such veneration because he labelled the OOC heretical. We should not allow our own flock to venerate Maximus.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 11:45:21 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2011, 02:10:24 PM »

Today in Church I bought a copy of Fr. Tadros Yacoub Malaty's "The Epistle of St. James, a Patristic Commentary" and on p. 93 Fr. Tadros quotes Maximus, whom he refers to as "Fr. Maximus the Confessor".

Just thought I would share that.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2011, 02:16:01 PM »

St Severus considers the issue of reconciling with groups who venerate some people who are 'controversial'. It is clear that there is no obstacle on our part in allowing a reconciliation with the Chalcedonians on the basis of controversial figures such as Leo. He says...

In dealing with abstentions with regard to names preserved in the sacred tablets we must in fitness duly compare the things of which the sacred Scripture said that, when they fall into water that is contained in small vessels, they pollute it, but, when into pools or wells or cisterns containing many streams, they cause no stain or pollution. For the law of the divine Spirit said thus: «And every drink that ye shall drink in any vessel shall be polluted; and everything on which anything from a dead body falls is polluted. However fountains of water and pools and cisterns of water shall be pure».

This principle then ought to be observed in the present case also. If a man separates from many on the ground that they are infected with heresy, or that they communicate with those who are infected, let him with all his power maintain abstention from the dead body, and not mention even the name of those who are under suspicion and not genuine, lest it fall and pollute the purity of the communion. But, if the holding of the orthodox faith, and an anathema of every heresy reigns in the churches, and whole countries and provinces, and populous churches, confess one uncorrupted confession, then names which are thought to pollute are inundated by the multitude of streams.

It is good that no particle of a dead body should be introduced even into a large quantity of water; but if perchance it in fact happen to be introduced, it is cleansed by the quantity of streams, and swamped by the quantity of cleansing. We find that in fact the holy fathers also who were in former times upholders of the right word managed these things in this way. Show us from the compositions of the doctors of the church that, after so large a number had found fault with the faith of the 318 at Ariminus [sic], any question was raised about the names of those who had died. And, not to make the letter tedious by using many words, let us pass on in mind to times that are near and not far removed. We find that the holy Timothy, he who underwent long exiles, united with everyone in the Encyclical, and communicated with Paul bishop of the city of the Ephesians, and Peter who had become prelate of this great Christ-loving city of Antioch, while names under suspicion were preserved in the sacred tablets; and the holy Cyril, when he united with the Easterns after the deprivation of Nestorius, when many bishops had died, and had departed under the stain of the Nestorian heresy, made no inquiry about names.

If therefore those who set great store by strictness in respect of such names say that the oblation is not pure, let them know that their strictness also draws its origin and existence from such communion, and descends from that source as from a root. For the saintly Timothy, as we have said, consented to hold communion with those of like opinions in company with such names, he whose grandsons they are who now with a boastful front loudly proclaim, «You shall not approach me because I am pure». And this we say superfluously, that some of the bishops in the cities of the Easterns set even this also straight, and ceased to mention all such names: for others found it impossible to set this same thing straight; and it was not right for such a reason for them to enter on wrangles, and set themselves in array against the enthusiasm of the people of the cities, in order that they might suffer shipwreck in the most essential things.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2011, 02:19:33 PM »

^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.

In any case, I do not think Maximus' theology is all that problematic. From what I have read about him he seems orthodox.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:19:54 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2011, 02:27:45 PM »

^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.
EOs already do use that language.

Did you mean that you're afraid OOs will start doing it?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:28:02 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2011, 02:28:52 PM »

I do have some problems with Maximus not least because I think he failed to understand the Orthodox miathelite position and that all those who speak of one will are tarred with the same brush. I think he prevented a proper reconciliation taking place.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2011, 02:29:34 PM »

^The only problem I might have lifting off Leo's anathema is that I think some EOs will start using the language found in his Tome (I.e. "the Word does this while the flesh does that"). I do not mind them venerating him per se.
EOs already do use that language.

Did you mean that you're afraid OOs will start doing it?
I am afraid they will use that language WHILE being united to our Church. Thus, the OOC might be influenced by Leonian Christology.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2011, 02:30:34 PM »

I do have some problems with Maximus not least because I think he failed to understand the Orthodox miathelite position and that all those who speak of one will are tarred with the same brush. I think he prevented a proper reconciliation taking place.
I do realize that he hindered reconciliation. But would you say that his Christology itself was substantially orthodox?
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2011, 02:34:42 PM »

I think that the christology of the post-553 Chalcedonians is generally and substantially Orthodox enough. The are other issues which have prevented reunion.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2011, 02:38:11 PM »

^As I have mentioned in my Nine Chapters thread, had some Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a duality of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago. It would seem as if the Melkite Patr. Cyrus believed in the Pseudo-Dionysian Formula "one theandric energy", rather than a heretical form of monoenergism.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 02:40:52 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2011, 04:23:35 PM »

I am just about to start reading Will, Action and Freedom - Christological Controversies in the Seventh Century by Cyril Hovorun.

I hope that it will be an interesting read.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,849


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2011, 05:56:25 PM »

had some non-Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a singularity of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago.
Cheesy
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2011, 05:58:03 PM »

had some non-Chalcedonians accepted equally orthodox modes of christological expression without rigidly insisting on a singularity of natures, wills, and energies in Christ we probably would have reunited a long time ago.
Cheesy
Touche! laugh
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2011, 06:18:18 PM »

Unfortunately the issue was always the status of Chalcedon since agreement could be reached on the substance of the faith.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Tags: saints one will NVM was here 
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 82 queries.