Topic: Contraception

[mike]

A dialogue between friends:
- You know, there is an only one 100% effective method of contraception: a glass of vodka.
- Before or after?
- Instead.

[ignatius]

A dialogue between friends:
- You know, there is an only one 100% effective method of contraception: a glass of vodka.
- Before or after?
- Instead.

You are the Man! Excellent! 

[LBK]

A dialogue between friends:
- You know, there is an only one 100% effective method of contraception: a glass of vodka.
- Before or after?
- Instead.

One glass? Is that all?? 

[ignatius]

A dialogue between friends:
- You know, there is an only one 100% effective method of contraception: a glass of vodka.
- Before or after?
- Instead.

One glass? Is that all?? 

light weight... 

[deusveritasest]

Just let your thoughts show them selves. ¿What do you think about contraception?

My thoughts are conducive to a post offered by Fr Ambrose.  I will post it here:

There is a consensus among the Russian, Greek Serbian, Romanian and Antiochian Churches (I cannot speak for the other Churches since I have never had the opportunity to become acquainted with their teaching on this matter.)

The above Orthodox Churches allow contraception when

1.  it is non-abortive

2.  it is for grave and justifiable reasons

3.  it is for a limited time
.........(although health consideration may influence this)

4  it is used with the blessing of the parish priest or spiritual father or mother
.........(although this is not strictly necessary)

But the FIRST COMMAND from GOD to MAN and WOMAN was to MULTIPLY, Can we opose artificially to fulfill such command?

Contraception is not stopping humanity from multiplying.

[deusveritasest]

Just let your thoughts show them selves. ¿What do you think about contraception?

My thoughts are conducive to a post offered by Fr Ambrose.  I will post it here:

There is a consensus among the Russian, Greek Serbian, Romanian and Antiochian Churches (I cannot speak for the other Churches since I have never had the opportunity to become acquainted with their teaching on this matter.)

The above Orthodox Churches allow contraception when

1.  it is non-abortive

2.  it is for grave and justifiable reasons

3.  it is for a limited time
.........(although health consideration may influence this)

4  it is used with the blessing of the parish priest or spiritual father or mother
.........(although this is not strictly necessary)

But the FIRST COMMAND from GOD to MAN and WOMAN was to MULTIPLY, Can we opose artificially to fulfill such command?

God also commanded these people to go to the land of Canaan. Perhaps we should all go there too?

 

[Justin Kissel]

A dialogue between friends:
- You know, there is an only one 100% effective method of contraception: a glass of vodka.
- Before or after?
- Instead.

Lol. Sounds good in theory. In practice, it's often the glass of vodka which would make the usage or non-usage of contraception an issue to begin with

[deusveritasest]

Large numbers of children are economic and military assets in a semi-tribal agrarian society...nothing new there...

Was there another point?

The FIRST COMMAND from GOD to MAN and WOMAN was to MULTIPLY, Can we opose artificially to fulfill such command?

Can you oppose naturally to fulfill such a command?

I am wondering this also.

[Michał]

The FIRST COMMAND from GOD to MAN and WOMAN was to MULTIPLY, Can we opose artificially to fulfill such command?

So why RCs do not have sex each month during the woman's ovulation but count the inbreedy days instead? Do you have sex with your wife any time she has ovulation?

Is that artifitial?

Artificial vs natural is not the key issue for Orthodoxy.

No bishop in Orthodoxy has ever issued a formal pro-contraception statement or pastoral letter. Every Orthodox jurisdiction that officially says anything about contraception teaches that contraception is sinful or imperfect. [...] [Yet, the Orthodox Church gives no] immediate, short, and clear answer with regard . . . to the question of contraception [- why?] The answer lies in large part with biological considerations (. . .the differences between Aristotelian and modern biology). But there is also the matter of Orthodox teleology. In Orthodoxy, the telos of a given act . . . is always to be subject to the telos of the person. Likewise, within Orthodoxy the telos of the person is not determined by the perceived telos of the acts appropriate to that person. Orthodoxy is not bottom up in its anthropology. Thus the logic: sex is meant, finally, for procreation; as a married man I am to have sex; thus my sexual activity is meant, finally, for procreation - does not work in Orthodoxy. Within Orthodoxy the "telos" of the given act is derivative of the telos of the person or persons involved. I am finally meant for salvation. My wife is finally meant for salvation. As two who have become one our marriage is to serve us as we are , finally, being saved. Sex within our marriage is to serve our telos. We are not meant to serve the "telos" of a given act. Thus God's soteriological personalism frees us from natural determinisms. This does not mean that we ignore or reject nature, quite the contrary. God intends to save me as a man, and to save my wife as a woman, and our salvation must be worked out in its proper course. But my sex and what is natural to it is meant to serve me, I am not meant to serve it. Thus, abortion always violates the telos of a person, whereas non-abortifacient birth control does not, if one accepts a modern biology with regard to then what must be the ontological status of sperm and egg. . . When someone who accepts modern biology says that non-abortifacient contraception is unnatural, they are referring to the telos of an action, primarily, and not a person, or they refer to a person only in the sense in which their telos is subject to the "telos" of the action.

Source: http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2007/02/orthodoxy-and-contraception-part-i.html & http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2007/02/orthodoxy-and-contraception-part-ii.html

[Nazarene]

Just let your thoughts show them selves. ¿What do you think about contraception?

My thoughts are conducive to a post offered by Fr Ambrose.  I will post it here:

There is a consensus among the Russian, Greek Serbian, Romanian and Antiochian Churches (I cannot speak for the other Churches since I have never had the opportunity to become acquainted with their teaching on this matter.)

The above Orthodox Churches allow contraception when

1.  it is non-abortive

2.  it is for grave and justifiable reasons

3.  it is for a limited time
.........(although health consideration may influence this)

4  it is used with the blessing of the parish priest or spiritual father or mother
.........(although this is not strictly necessary)

But the FIRST COMMAND from GOD to MAN and WOMAN was to MULTIPLY, Can we opose artificially to fulfill such command?

Interesting topic. Tell me what you think of this cause I can't quite make up my mind here:

A few years ago I was listening to a Protestant Pastor talk about contraception. He didn't get into the details of methods (which would've been inappropriate in a public setting) but he reckons that since God decided to stop creating at a point (the 6th day) that's it's ok for man (us) to also stop procreating at a point, whether the point is 2, 5, or whatever amount of kids when we can look at what we've, um, created and say "this is good" and "rest" indefinately from the labour that is, well, procreation.

Feedback?

[Heorhij]

I have no idea what you mean by "Biblical," but what I do know is that in the Orthodox Church, issues like contraception in marriage are not dogmatic but pastoral. There is no one universal view on contraception in general. If a married couple decides to use some non-abortive contraceptive method, this couple is advised to seek their parish priest's counsel and blessing.

[Nazarene]

OK so for the Orthodox contraception is not forbidden, got it. Though my post was originally directed to Alonso.

[Michał]

OK so for the Orthodox contraception is not forbidden, got it.

It's not allowed either. Orthodox answer to the question of contracetpion is not an "always yes" / "always no" one.

Bases of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church

[...]

Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union. . . The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

At the same time, spouses are responsible before God for the comprehensive upbringing of their children. One of the ways to be responsible for their birth is to restrain themselves from sexual relations for a time. However, Christian spouses should remember the words of St. Paul addressed to them: "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency" (1 Cor. 7:5). Clearly, spouses should make such decisions mutually on the counsel of their spiritual father. The latter should take into account, with pastoral prudence, the concrete living conditions of the couple, their age, health, degree of spiritual maturity and many other circumstances. In doing so, he should distinguish those who can hold the high demands of continence from those to whom it is not given (Mt. 19:11), taking care above all of the preservation and consolidation of the family.

[...]

Source: http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

[Nazarene]

Yeh I figured from the other posts. Though my original post was intended to be taken into consideration regarding the command to "be fruitful and multiply".

[Heorhij]

OK so for the Orthodox contraception is not forbidden, got it. Though my post was originally directed to Alonso.

Sorry, my reply was to the OP, too.

[Nazarene]

Oh I see, well then I'm sorry too for misunderstanding.

[Robb]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

[PeterTheAleut]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

  Is this some racist stereotype of Latin Americans?

[Nazarene]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

  Is this some racist stereotype of Latin Americans?

I sure hope not, but if a husband only sees his wife as a childbearing cook chances are he'll have a mistress or two.

[ialmisry]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

  Is this some racist stereotype of Latin Americans?

I sure hope not, but if a husband only sees his wife as a childbearing cook chances are he'll have a mistress or two.

In said account, the wife was Latin American, not the husband, who was German.

And he didn't have any mistresses, but he did have resentments, which is understandable.

[ChristusDominus]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

I'm Latin-American, care to elaborate? Please..

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I am personally against artificial "birth control" and "contraception." The etymology itself seems demonic. Birth as something undesirable that needs to be controlled like a disease. "Contra"- against; contrary to conception. In my opinion, such a mentality leads to abortion.

Of course, I will not condemn certain non-abortifacient forms of birth control if the Church does not condemn them. I'll have to get back to you on whether or not my EOTC condones certain forms of birth control. (Forgive me for not knowing already.)

Selam

[Michał]

I am personally against artificial "birth control" and "contraception."

Your opinion is compatible with the Orthodox ideal. But the Church aknowledges the fact that not everyone is on the same level of spiritual maturity (i.e., not everyone is able to straight away live up to the ideal), therefore allows non-abortifacient contraception as a lesser evil (lesser than abortion, divorce, extramarital sex, all forms of onanism, etc.).

[Papist]

In Mexico I never heard of that about Catholic Chuch.

Time to study. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

Protestant couple dialogue afterwards:

"Why do they have so many children?"

"Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby."

"But it's the same with us."

"What do you mean?"

"Well we've had sexual intercourse twice and we have two children."

(I actually knew a family, the wife Latin American, who puportedly had sex only three times in 20 years, and had two sons.  Talk about lucky shots).

Of course, Latin American men sleep with their mistresses, not their wives.

Why the racism? My Father has never cheated on my mom. My Grandfather has never cheated on my grandmother.

[podkarpatska]

There is no room in the Church for the perpetuation of stereotypes to describe any of God's people.

[Robb]

Oh come on. It's a well known fact that men from Latin cultures cheat on their wives all the time.  This does not mean every man down there does that but its pretty common.  The same goes for the "old world" countries of the Mediterranean, like Spain, Italy, Greece, etc..  I'm sorry if some don't like this, but it still stands true.  We can't change the world by white washing everything in the name of political correctness and sensitivity.

[Papist]

Oh come on.  That's too dreary an outlook on life.  We all need a little laughter and what I said was pretty accurate.  The world today is plagued with many problems and a lack of good humor shouldn't be one of them.

So it allows you to be a racist? I don't think you know anything of Latino cultures.

[HandmaidenofGod]

Oh come on. It's a well known fact that men from Latin cultures cheat on their wives all the time.  This does not mean every man down there does that but its pretty common.  The same goes for the "old world" countries of the Mediterranean, like Spain, Italy, Greece, etc..  I'm sorry if some don't like this, but it still stands true.  We can't change the world by white washing everything in the name of political correctness and sensitivity.

Gee Robb, is there any ethnic group that is free from you picking on them?

[Robb]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

[HandmaidenofGod]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Historical truth according to whom? If this is such a "Historical fact" as you say, I'm sure you can provide a source citing such information.

Furthermore, yes, we are "all human," so we should have compassion and mercy for one another. We should be forgiving of one another's sins; not pointing them out to one another.

Christ didn't tell us to take the plank out of our own eye to beat it over the head of our brother.

[Irish Hermit]

From the very un-PC Saint Paul:

"Even one of their own prophets has said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy
gluttons.' This testimony is true."
~Titus 1:12-13

[Robb]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone.  However I cannot understand how anyone can deny that their are obvious cultural differences between various peoples and that these differences shape their cultural outlook.  For instance, saying that a good percentage of Latino men have affairs does not mean that all do, but you can be generally sure that enough do that those outside of their group take notice of this and consider it an attribute of that group.

Here is a good article on the subject that I remember reading years ago and have happily been able to locate again.



http://www.sobran.com/articles.shtml


Created Equal
(Reprinted from SOBRAN’S, January 2000, page 3)



The United States was founded in the republican conviction that heredity shouldn’t be destiny. This doctrine has many ramifications, not all of them strictly logical or mutually consistent. The Declaration of Independence declares that all men are created equal; the Constitution forbids titles of nobility; it eventually outlawed chattel slavery; “civil rights” has come to mean that even private employers must not hire according to ethnic criteria; racial prejudice, “racism,” has become a social taboo; and even generalizations about ethnic groups are frowned on (unless they flatter the “contributions” of this or that group). The only trait it’s now safe to ascribe to whole races is victimhood.

And yet common sense tells us that groups and nations do have distinct characters, with characteristic vices as well as virtues. When we aren’t on our guard against the thought police, we may discuss such things freely. American individualism is balanced by the earthy sociology of stereotypes, which, as the great sociologist John Murray Cuddihy assures us, “are more or less accurate.” Obviously what is true of the group may not apply to this or that member, but the group still has its own habits and ways, maybe even its own culture (or “subculture,” to use a word my generation learned in college). The individual may show the group’s traits for the same reason he speaks in the accents of his native place: from early childhood he imitates those around him, often without even realizing it.

[Papist]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Behaving as if my culture is more adulterous than any other is ridiculous, racist, and offensive.

[Papist]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Historical truth according to whom? If this is such a "Historical fact" as you say, I'm sure you can provide a source citing such information.

Furthermore, yes, we are "all human," so we should have compassion and mercy for one another. We should be forgiving of one another's sins; not pointing them out to one another.

Christ didn't tell us to take the plank out of our own eye to beat it over the head of our brother.

I think Robb's problem is that he doesn't know that God speaks Spanish. 

[ialmisry]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Behaving as if my culture is more adulterous than any other is ridiculous, racist, and offensive.

American culture is certainly more adulterous than many others.

[ialmisry]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Historical truth according to whom? If this is such a "Historical fact" as you say, I'm sure you can provide a source citing such information.

Furthermore, yes, we are "all human," so we should have compassion and mercy for one another. We should be forgiving of one another's sins; not pointing them out to one another.

Christ didn't tell us to take the plank out of our own eye to beat it over the head of our brother.

I think Robb's problem is that he doesn't know that God speaks Spanish. 

Not since 589.

[PeterTheAleut]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Uhh, you chose to relate it, though you didn't need to.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

But do you not see how your racist joking derailed this thread?

[ChristusDominus]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

Historical truth according to whom? If this is such a "Historical fact" as you say, I'm sure you can provide a source citing such information.

Furthermore, yes, we are "all human," so we should have compassion and mercy for one another. We should be forgiving of one another's sins; not pointing them out to one another.

Christ didn't tell us to take the plank out of our own eye to beat it over the head of our brother.

I think Robb's problem is that he doesn't know that God speaks Spanish. 

Not since 589.

What Happened in 589?

[Robb]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Uhh, you chose to relate it, though you didn't need to.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

But do you not see how your racist joking derailed this thread?

Did you read the Sobran article?

[Heorhij]

From the very un-PC Saint Paul:

"Even one of their own prophets has said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy
gluttons.' This testimony is true."
~Titus 1:12-13

So this "prophet" said a stupid thing, and St. Paul (unfortunately) repeated it.

ALL members of WHATEVER group of people cannot be liars, brutes and gluttons.

[Michał]

So this "prophet" said a stupid thing, and St. Paul (unfortunately) repeated it.

It's not a stupid thing. It's a hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole).

[Heorhij]

So this "prophet" said a stupid thing, and St. Paul (unfortunately) repeated it.

It's not a stupid thing. It's a hyperbole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole).

Yeah, like "all Negroes are stupid" or "all Jews are calculating bloodsucking bastards." Hyperbole my... (will finish the sentence after Lent.)

[PeterTheAleut]

No, I'm just relating a sad but unfortunate historical truth.  You can't pick on me for relating it.

Uhh, you chose to relate it, though you didn't need to.

Also, since all ethnic groups have vices as well as virtues, this means that all can be poked fun at gently if need be.  We are all human after all .

But do you not see how your racist joking derailed this thread?

Did you read the Sobran article?

Why does it matter?  You posted the article to defend your racist statements in this discussion, racist statements that had already derailed the thread.  The Sobran article only furthered the derailment.

IOW, regardless of what you may think about your racist joking, the joking and your attempts to justify it have nothing to do with the subject of contraception and only serve to drive the thread off topic.  So what do you propose we do to get this discussion back on topic?

[Michał]

Yeah, like "all Negroes are stupid" or "all Jews are calculating bloodsucking bastards." Hyperbole my... (will finish the sentence after Lent.)

Please, note that the prophet which St Paul is refering to, was a Cretan himself. It's a different thing to make an exaggerated statement about one's own people (and automatically about oneself) and different to make it about some other group.

OK, end of offtopic.

[PeterTheAleut]

English translation, please.