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Author Topic: Silent prayers and opening of the Royal Doors  (Read 9406 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mickey
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2010, 10:50:09 AM »


isn't it possible to pray the Jesus prayer and participate in the Liturgy?

I believe that it is.
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2010, 12:59:54 PM »

I'm sure you will do what you want.  

No Father. It is an obedience.  It is not good to assume that I am acting on my own as some sort of rebellion--you do not know me.

The Jesus Prayer can become a part of a person's prayer rule (to pray ceaselessly) even while they sleep.

If my conscience is pricked because rubrics are not being followed, instead of focusing on the neglect of the rubric, or what other people may be doing at a specific point of the Liturgy, I am going to say the Jesus Prayer and focus on my sinfulness and unworthiness (for that brief moment).  If one day, Met. Philip happens to be at my parish and admonishes me--so be it.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your input.  Forgive this sinner.

Mickey

You are right, I do not know you.  However, you will do what you want to do.

If you want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you will do it.

If you do not want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you won't.

If you want to obey, you will, and you won't when you won't.

There is no obedience in this case as you have so far described it, only choice.  Unless, of course, you priest has demanded that you pray the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy.  Then you have an obedience.

There is a difference between an obedience (i.e. a command) and permission (i.e. a choice).  If your priest is demanding that you say a certain prayer during the Liturgy, then he is calling you to obedience. 

Again, the rubrics do not call for such a prayer during services, so you are having your own service, albeit with his permission for you to make that choice.

The only way to truly test your rebelliousness would be to give you an actual obedience that you don't like (for example, being made to stand on your knees during the whole service, unless you enjoy sore knees Smiley ).  Then we can start talking about obedience.

However, this thread was about rubrics, and the rubrics do not call for the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Services.  We are called to follow the rubrics as closely as we can, in consultation with the bishop who oversees and pastors the community.  It is not the priest's decision or a layman's decision what goes on in the services, because neither of has his name on the antimension.

In the end, you will do what you want.  You will obey when you want to obey, and you will pick what you think is important to do and do it.  If you feel bad about it, the problem is with you.  Frankly, we all act according to our free will, and we can only hope that we are open enough to God to be transformed by Him so we will choose correctly. 
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2010, 01:41:48 PM »

You are right, I do not know you.

Correct.

However, you will do what you want to do.

Wrong. I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

If you want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you will do it.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

If you do not want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you won't.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.


If you want to obey, you will, and you won't when you won't.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

There is no obedience in this case as you have so far described it, only choice.  Unless, of course, you priest has demanded that you pray the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy.  Then you have an obedience.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

There is a difference between an obedience (i.e. a command) and permission (i.e. a choice). 

I know

If your priest is demanding that you say a certain prayer during the Liturgy, then he is calling you to obedience. 


I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.


Again, the rubrics do not call for such a prayer during services, so you are having your own service, albeit with his permission for you to make that choice.


The rubrics also do not call for the anaphora prayers to be said aloud.
I am not having my own service. The prayer of the heart is not a disruption to the  Liturgy.

The only way to truly test your rebelliousness would be to give you an actual obedience that you don't like (for example, being made to stand on your knees during the whole service, unless you enjoy sore knees .  Then we can start talking about obedience.

I will be obedient to my spiritual father.

However, this thread was about rubrics, and the rubrics do not call for the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Services.


They do not say it is illegal either.


We are called to follow the rubrics as closely as we can, in consultation with the bishop who oversees and pastors the community.


Please show me where the rubrics say that I cannot say the prayer of the heart during Liturgy. 



In the end, you will do what you want.


You can keep saying this until the cows come home, father.  But in the end, I will be obedient to my spiritual father.


You will obey when you want to obey, and you will pick what you think is important to do and do it.

 I will be obedient to my spiritual father.


If you feel bad about it, the problem is with you.

I do not “FEEL” bad about it.  “FEELINGS” are irrelevant. 


Frankly, we all act according to our free will, and we can only hope that we are open enough to God to be transformed by Him so we will choose correctly. 

Amen.
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2010, 02:07:22 PM »

Mickey,

It seems you are not getting my point about the difference between 'permission' and 'obedience,' but this is neither the correct thread or the best means to explain it at this point.  I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

The service books don't go into detail about what you are not supposed to do, because otherwise they would be enormous.  The service books tell us what to do, and we are expected to do just what is called for.  Any additions or subtractions are the prerogative of the bishop in consultation with his brothers on the Synod.

Praying your own prayers when everyone else is praying together means you are no longer part of the assembly.  You are on your own even in a room full of people.  You are doing your own thing.  When we come together, we are supposed to work together, not each one praying for himself as he sees fit.  Again, if you don't understand this at this point, there isn't much else I can say.

At this point, I don't think I will go on any further with you about this, Mickey.  I wish you well, and I am sure you are a better Christian than me.  However, we are not helping each other by going round and round.

As they say in Spain, adíos, amigoWink

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« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2010, 02:36:55 PM »

The Liturgy is a work of the people. We aren't to be going off on our tangentel prayers, but to be active participants in the service going on around us.

Amen.

Is this saying that the Jesus Prayer is "a tangential prayer"?  Does Jordanville say anything else?  I was there in October and I believe I recall seeing the prayer rope on the monks. Also, do the Jordanville monks keep the Royal Doors open all the time?  Do they say the quiet prayers aloud? Do the people say the Amens during the anaphora?  Since you are sourcing Jordanville-----what does Jordanville have to say about these things?

The book I sourced is a Prayerbook. It is a book of prayers and has commentary about praying. It is not a book on liturgical rubrics, nor is it a book for clergy to use during the Liturgy.

It is a prayerbook to be used by the Laity.

At the back of the book, on the page I referenced, it has an article on "How to pray in Church." Saying the Jesus prayer is not advised. And yes, since the Jesus prayer is not part of the Liturgy, it would be a tangental prayer.
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« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2010, 02:43:36 PM »

I could be wrong Mickey, but it seems that you are saying that if the rubrics are not done to the "t" you are just going to pull out your prayer rope and say the Jesus prayer.

Isn't that the equivelant of taking your toys and going into another sandbox?

If the priest serving is guilty of Liturgical abuse, contact your Bishop. If he is conducting the Liturgy in accordance with the instructions given to him by the Bishop, don't sweat it.

Are we there to analyze the Liturgy or pray the Liturgy?

Food for thought...
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« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2010, 02:43:46 PM »

It seems you are not getting my point about the difference between 'permission' and 'obedience,'

I understand perfectly father.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

…and neither will I.

Praying your own prayers when everyone else is praying together means you are no longer part of the assembly.  

You are still not understanding.  The prayer of the heart is not a prayer I made up to disconnect myself from the assembly.  It is the Jesus Prayer.  It is possible to participate in the Liturgy while saying the Jesus Prayer.  

You are on your own even in a room full of people.

No I am not.

You are doing your own thing.

Wrong. I am praying the Liturgy…sometimes with the Jesus Prayer in my heart.


When we come together, we are supposed to work together, not each one praying for himself as he sees fit.  

I am praying for everyone as I sit in awe during the Divine Liturgy sometimes with the Jesus Prayer in my heart.


Again, if you don't understand this at this point, there isn't much else I can say.

With all due respect, I believe it is you who do not understand.

At this point, I don't think I will go on any further with you about this, Mickey.  I wish you well, and I am sure you are a better Christian than me.  However, we are not helping each other by going round and round.

I am a terrible sinner. It is you who has been blessed with the Mystery of Holy Orders.  I am nothing but a worm trying to be obedient to my spiritual father.

I do not want to argue with a priest of the Holy Orthodox Church….so I will also stop the discourse at this point.  I will leave you with a wonderful writng!

Slava Isusu Christu!



The Power of the Komboskini, of the Jesus Prayer
Once, there was a monk from the Monastery of Saint Paul who had gone to the Church of Saint Gerasimos on the island of Cephallonia. During the Divine Liturgy, he stood in the Altar and was praying with his komboski -the prayer of the heart Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us- while outside they were chanting. They had also brought a possessed person into the church to be cured by Saint Gerasimos. While the monk was saying the prayer in the Altar, the demon was being seared outside and was shouting:
"Stop working that string, will you, monk, it is burning me."
The priest heard it, too, and said to the monk:
"Pray with our komboskini as much as you can, my brother, so that God's creature can be freed of the demon".
The demon then shouted in great anger:
"You, rotten priest, you. What are you telling him to pull that string for ? It is burning me!"The monk then prayed with his komboskini with even greater effort and the possessed man was delivered from the demon.
(EXCERPT FROM: “ATHONITE FATHERS AND ATHONITE MATTERS”)

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« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2010, 02:50:04 PM »

I could be wrong Mickey, but it seems that you are saying that if the rubrics are not done to the "t" you are just going to pull out your prayer rope and say the Jesus prayer.

Yes, you are wrong.

Isn't that the equivelant of taking your toys and going into another sandbox?

You are comparing the Jesus Prayer to a toy in the sandbox?  Oh my!

If the priest serving is guilty of Liturgical abuse, contact your Bishop. If he is conducting the Liturgy in accordance with the instructions given to him by the Bishop, don't sweat it.

I am not the Liturgical police.

Are we there to analyze the Liturgy or pray the Liturgy?

To pray of course.
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« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2010, 02:59:38 PM »

The book I sourced is a Prayerbook.

Yes. I have it.

At the back of the book, on the page I referenced, it has an article on "How to pray in Church." Saying the Jesus prayer is not advised.

Can you tell me where it says in the Jordanville prayer book that it is not advised to say the Jesus Prayer during Liturgy.
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« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2010, 04:24:21 PM »

The Jesus Prayer is known to innumerable Orthodox, either as a rule of prayer or in addition to it, as a form of devotion, a short focal point that can be used at any moment, whatever the situation.

Metroplitan Anthony Bloom
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« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2010, 05:03:43 PM »

Metropolitans can make mistakes.
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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2010, 05:09:19 PM »

Metropolitans can make mistakes.

We are all wretched sinners.
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM »

The Jesus Prayer is known to innumerable Orthodox, either as a rule of prayer or in addition to it, as a form of devotion, a short focal point that can be used at any moment, whatever the situation.

Metroplitan Anthony Bloom
Fine. But if your focus is on the Jesus Prayer instead of the Divine Liturgy, why are you there?

That being said, there have been moments where in my own weakness my mind has wandered during Liturgy and I will use the Jesus Prayer in order to refocus on, but not replace, the Liturgy.
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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2010, 05:47:38 PM »


If my conscience is pricked because rubrics are not being followed,

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly.  Certainly it has been the custom to take them so but saying them aloud is not a violation of rubric only a change in custom.

From an OCA Priest's Servie Book by Archbishop Dmitri:

The priest prays: It is meet and right to hymn thee, to bless thee, to praise thee, to give thanks unto thee, and to worship thee in every place of thy dominion, for thou art God inexpressibie, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, everexisting, eternally the same, thou and thine only-begotten Son and thy Holy Spirit. Thou didst bring us from nonexistence into being, and when we had fallen away, didst raise us up again, and didst not cease to do all things until thou hadst brought us up to heaven, and hadst bestowed upon us thy kingdom, which is to come. For all these things we give thanks unto thee, and to thine only-begotten Son, and to thy Holy Spirit, for all things of which we know and of which we know not, for the benefits both revealed and unrevealed, which have been done for us. And we give thanks unto thee for this service which thou hast vouchsafed to accept from our hands, even though there stand beside thee thousands of Archangels and ten thousands of Angels, Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, borne aloft on their wings.

And the deacon, taking the holy star from the holy diskos, makes the sign of the cross above it, and having kissed it, he lays it aside.

Exclamation: Singing the hymn of victory, shouting, crying, and saying:

Choir: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord of Sabaoth, heaven and earth are full of thy glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

Then the deacon comes and stands on the right side, and taking a fan in his hand, waves it quietly with all heed and fear over the holy Gifts, so that flies or other insects may not settle on them.

The priest prays: With these blessed Powers, we also, O Master, Lover of man, cry and say, Holy art thou and all-holy, thou and thine only-begotten Son, and thy Holy Spirit; holy art thou and all-holy, and magnificent is thy glory, Who hast so loved thy world as to give thine only-begotten Son that all that believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life, Who when He had come and had fulfilled all the dispensation for us, in the night in which He was given up, or rather, gave Himself up, for the life of the world, took bread in His holy andimmaculate and blameless hands, and when He had given thanks, and blessed it, and hallowed it, and broken it, He gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

Exclamation: Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you, for the forgiveness of sins.

Choir: Amen.

While this is being said, the deacon shows the priest the holy diskos, holding his orarion with three fingers of his right hand, and in like manner when the priest says: Drink ye all of this, he shows him the holy chalice.

The priest, secretly: And likewise the cup after supper, saying:

Exclamation: Drink ye all of this; this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The priest prays: Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again,

Exclamation: Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all.     While this is being said, the deacon puts aside the fan, and crossing his arms, elevates the holy diskos and the holy chalice, and makes a devout reverence.

Choir: We hymn thee, we bless thee, we give thanks unto thee, O Lord, and we pray unto thee, O our God.

The priest prays: Again we offer unto thee this rational and bloodless worship, and we call upon thee and pray thee, and supplicate thee: send down thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.


And the deacon sets aside the fan and draws near to the priest, and they both make three reverences before holy table, praying within themselves and saying:

Priest: O Lord, who at the third hour didst send down thine all-holy Spirit upon thine Apostles, take not the same from us, O Good One, but renew Him in us who pray unto thee.

Deacon, the verse: A clean heart create in me, O God, and a right spirit renew in my inmost parts.

Again the priest: O Lord, who at the third hour . . .

Deacon, the verse: Cast me not away from thy face, and take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

And again the priest: O Lord, who at the third hour . . .

Then bowing his head and pointing to the holy Bread with his orarion, the deacon says: Bless, Master, the holy bread.

And the priest, rising, signs the holy Bread saying: And make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ.
   
Deacon: Amen. 

And again the deacon: Bless, Master, the holy cup.

And the priest blessing, says: And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of thy Christ.
   
Deacon: Amen. 

And again the deacon, showing both the holy Things, says: Bless, Master, both.

The priest, blessing both the holy Things, says: Changing them by thy Holy Spirit.

Deacon: Amen. Amen. Amen.



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« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »

That being said, there have been moments where in my own weakness my mind has wandered during Liturgy and I will use the Jesus Prayer in order to refocus on, but not replace, the Liturgy.

I have never said that it replaces it!
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« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2010, 10:48:47 AM »

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly. 

Dear Deacon Lance,

That is not my real issue.  My issue is not saying it aloud (although I prefer it quietly).  My issue is the people responding in the parts where the rubrics state it is the Deacon's response.
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« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2010, 10:15:09 AM »

The Old Orthodox Prayer Book has much information on when to bow during the liturgy throughout the year.  Then on page 348, it says this:

Other bows than those prescribed bows we dare not do, lest we cause scandal to people; rather, we stand with fear and trembling and with the Prayer of Jesus during the holy chanting.

And then we have this:

The holy Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov mentions that the lengthy services held in the Orthodox Church are also a good opportunity for praying with the prayer rope.  Often there are times when it is difficult to concentrate on the words being read or chanted, and it is easier to concentrate quietly on one’s own private prayers, be they extemporaneous prayers for some special need, repeating prayers or psalms that we know by heart, or repeating some short prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer, with the assistance of the prayer rope.  In fact, this often helps a person concentrate better on the service itself, something mentioned by St Seraphim of Sarov.  Of course, when we are praying at the services, our prayer is joined to that of the entire Church.
(On The Prayer Of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov)
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« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2010, 03:17:19 AM »

The Old Orthodox Prayer Book has much information on when to bow during the liturgy throughout the year.  Then on page 348, it says this:

Other bows than those prescribed bows we dare not do, lest we cause scandal to people; rather, we stand with fear and trembling and with the Prayer of Jesus during the holy chanting.

And then we have this:

The holy Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov mentions that the lengthy services held in the Orthodox Church are also a good opportunity for praying with the prayer rope.  Often there are times when it is difficult to concentrate on the words being read or chanted, and it is easier to concentrate quietly on one’s own private prayers, be they extemporaneous prayers for some special need, repeating prayers or psalms that we know by heart, or repeating some short prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer, with the assistance of the prayer rope.  In fact, this often helps a person concentrate better on the service itself, something mentioned by St Seraphim of Sarov.  Of course, when we are praying at the services, our prayer is joined to that of the entire Church.
(On The Prayer Of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov)

Well, since we've both been able to quote different sources with different opinions, I believe the safest bet would be for a person to follow the advice of their Spiritual Father.  Smiley

Going back to the rubrics, why does this bother you so much? I mean, things vary from parish to parish, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Why does this one element bother you?
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« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2010, 11:22:11 AM »

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly. 

Dear Deacon Lance,

That is not my real issue.  My issue is not saying it aloud (although I prefer it quietly).  My issue is the people responding in the parts where the rubrics state it is the Deacon's response.

What happens when there is no Deacon?
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2010, 09:24:12 AM »

Well, since we've both been able to quote different sources with different opinions, I believe the safest bet would be for a person to follow the advice of their Spiritual Father.

Yeah, except the Jordanville prayer book does not say what you think it is saying.  Wink

Going back to the rubrics, why does this bother you so much? I mean, things vary from parish to parish, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Why does this one element bother you?

I suppose it is because I was never exposed to this before (and because it is not in the rubrics).
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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2010, 09:27:16 AM »


What happens when there is no Deacon?

What happens during the other parts of the Divine Liturgy when there is no Deacon?  Who chants the litanies etc.....? Wink
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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2010, 10:49:30 AM »


What happens when there is no Deacon?

What happens during the other parts of the Divine Liturgy when there is no Deacon?  Who chants the litanies etc.....? Wink

The problem here is that you are not considering the context, which is:

"Bowing, the deacon points to the diskos with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Bless, master, the holy bread.

The priest signs the Lamb only.

Priest: And make this  bread the precious Body of thy Christ.

Still bowing, the deacon points to the chalice with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Amen. Bless, master, the holy cup.

The priest signs the cup.

Priest: And that which is in this  cup, the precious Blood of thy Christ.

Still bowing, the deacon points to both the diskos and chalice with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Amen. Bless both, master.

The priest signs the bread and cup.

Priest: Changing  them by thy Holy Spirit.

Deacon: (spoken, but so that the people can hear) Amen! Amen! Amen!

The priest, deacon, servers, and people, all make a full prostration. On Sundays, Great Feasts, and during the Paschal season, they make a reverence instead."

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.

Can you point me in the direction as to where I might find the rubrics that state the people can replace the Deacon for the scenario of which you speak?

Furthermore, we always have a Deacon--yet the people always say it.  Huh
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« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2010, 02:53:39 PM »

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.

Can you point me in the direction as to where I might find the rubrics that state the people can replace the Deacon for the scenario of which you speak?

Furthermore, we always have a Deacon--yet the people always say it.  Huh

Good for them!  angel

As for rubrics, as far as I could find, "official" written rubrics that include the people saying the "amens" are found in the Liturgy of Saint James. On the other hand, it seems to me (and please forgive me for saying this) that you are elevating "rubrics" to a level that it does not need to go. The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

"Instructions for a priest explaining what he had to do during a liturgical service were also rubricated in missals and the other forms of service book, leaving the sections to be spoken aloud in black.[3] From this, rubric has a second meaning of an instruction in a text, regardless of how it is written or printed. This is in fact the oldest recorded meaning in English, found in 1375.[4] Less formally, rubrics may refer to any liturgical action customarily performed over the course of a service, whether or not they are actually written down."

So, rubrics really are what churches customarily do. Think of it this way: In the United States, most Orthodox Christians did not commune frequently, nor did they use the Holy Mystery of Reconciliation, until relatively recently. So the practice changed--I believe for the better. But, from another POV it is a change, and some folks (like you) are truly uncomfortable with change, some reflectively so. I understand that and I merely ask that you delve beneath the surface and ask not whether a rubric has been disregarded but whether the "new" practice is salutary to the Body.
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« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2010, 12:58:45 PM »

Good for them! 

If you say so.

As for rubrics, as far as I could find, "official" written rubrics that include the people saying the "amens" are found in the Liturgy of Saint James. 

Can you show me? And if that is true, were they changed after that?

On the other hand, it seems to me (and please forgive me for saying this) that you are elevating "rubrics" to a level that it does not need to go.


I am simply trying to figure out why the pew books tell us that the "deacon" is suppose to say this (at my Church it actually says that the "priest" says it)---but then during the Liturgy, the people say it.  Huh

The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

I do not put much stock in Wikipedia. Got anything else?

But, from another POV it is a change, and some folks (like you) are truly uncomfortable with change, some reflectively so.

Wrong. I will tell you what I am uncomfortable with:  The ROCOR/Russian, Serbian, some Romanian, some OCA, most Ukrainian, some Greek, etc….will tell me that the people do not respond with the “Amens”.  And then the Antiochians, some OCA, some Romanians, etc….will tell me that it is okay.  But no one can give a clear explanation for why or why not.

I understand that and I merely ask that you delve beneath the surface and ask not whether a rubric has been disregarded but whether the "new" practice is salutary to the Body.
I am delving my friend—and no one seems to be able to answer it.


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« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »


The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

I do not put much stock in Wikipedia. Got anything else?

Would the two sources that Wikipedia actually quotes do: the OED (unfortunately not on the internet for free) and the (old) Catholic Encyclopedia?  Note that footnote numbers in SecondChance's initial quotation of the Wikipedia article.  If one were to go to the original article on Wikipedia for "rubrics," one would easily find the links to those sources.
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« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2010, 02:08:58 PM »

Epiklesis of Saint James' Divine Liturgy (Source Wikipedia--sorry!):

In the Liturgy of Saint James, according to the form in which it is celebrated on the island of Zakinthos, Greece, the anaphora is as follows:

    Priest (aloud): Thy people and Thy Church entreat Thee. (thrice)

    People: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. (thrice)

    The Priest, in a low voice: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with Thy great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, Thine all-holy Spirit, (bowing) the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with Thee, God and Father, and Tine only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by Thy New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon Thy holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Thy same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth,

    (aloud): that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, He may sanctify this bread and make it the holy Body of Christ,

    People: Amen.

    Priest: and this Cup (chalice) the precious Blood of Christ,

    People: Amen.

    The Priest signs the holy Gifts and says in a low voice: that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of Thy holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou dids found on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age."
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« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2010, 02:39:33 PM »

Epiklesis of Saint James' Divine Liturgy (Source Wikipedia--sorry!):

1.   St James Liturgy is largely out of use.
2.   I believe the rubrics may have been changed since then.
3.   I do not trust wikipedia. Sorry.


In the Liturgy of Saint James, according to the form in which it is celebrated on the island of Zakinthos, Greece, the anaphora is as follows:

You seem to have found an island in Greece which still celebrates the Liturgy of St James (once per year if I am correct) with rubrics that indicate the people’s response to the Amen. Is this uniform for all places which may still celebrate the Liturgy of St James?  Do you have anything regarding the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom or St Basil the Great? Do you have any more such examples other than the island of Zakinthos?
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« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2010, 02:50:51 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 
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« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2010, 03:07:58 PM »

2.   I believe the rubrics may have been changed since then.
Exactly. Rubrics develop and change.
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« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2010, 03:20:38 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.
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« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2010, 03:21:14 PM »

Rubrics develop and change.

Indeed.
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« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2010, 03:26:52 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley
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« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2010, 03:45:50 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley

Amen my brother in Christ!  I can deal with some variations in the rubrics.

But I surely hope they don't decide to start imposing gender neutral language like some of the Eastern Catholics--that was disturbing.




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« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2010, 05:26:49 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley

Amen my brother in Christ!  I can deal with some variations in the rubrics.

But I surely hope they don't decide to start imposing gender neutral language like some of the Eastern Catholics--that was disturbing.


Amen and amen!  Smiley

On the gender neutral language, I am with you brother!
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« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2010, 05:44:28 PM »

I'll modify the above rendition of St. Iakovos' anaphora in accordance with the directions as in the Liturgy book published by the Apostolic Ministry of the Church of Greece:

{Directions in a preceding prayer indicate that all the long prayers should be read "mystically."}

Priest (aloud and melodically): Thy people and Thy Church entreat Thee.
People: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. (thrice)

The Priest: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with Thy great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, Thine all-holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with Thee, God and Father, and Tine only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by Thy New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon Thy holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Thy same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth, that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, He may sanctify this bread and make it the holy Body of Christ,

    Deacon: Amen.

    Priest: and this Cup the precious Blood of Christ,

    Deacon: Amen.

    Priest (standing, and signing each of the holy Gifts {with the sign of the Cross - Fr. G}): that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

    Deacon: Amen.

For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of Thy holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou dids found on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age."

    Deacon: Amen.

{Then it continues with a prayer of commemoration, not unlike (but not replacing) the portion of St. John's anaphora that commemorates "forefathers, fathers...," with the people singing over the prayer "Remember Lord our God."  Afterward, he exclaims "Especially for our Most Holy..." and then continues.}
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« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2010, 06:50:21 PM »

The Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. James as translated by Archimandrite Ephrem Lash:

The Priest, in a low voice: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with your great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, your all-holy Spirit, (bowing) the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with you, God and Father, and your only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by your New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon your holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Your same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth,

(aloud): that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, he may sanctify this bread and make it the holy body of Christ,

People: Amen.

Priest: and this Cup the precious blood of Christ,

People: Amen.

The Priest signs the holy Gifts and says in a low voice: that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of your holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which you founded on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age.

The clergy alone answer: Amen.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-james.htm

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« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2010, 07:12:32 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.

In the 2006 Byzantine Catholic Liturgicon the rubrics still assign the deacon the Amens at the Epiclesis.  That was a parish depature if it was being done.

But as to whether having the people say the Amens at the Epiclesis is proper we have to ask is why did the response move from the people to the deacon in the first place?  The obvoius answer is when the Anaphora went quiet the deacon had to respond because the people couldn't hear the Epilcesis to respond to it.  Also to fill that silence settings of "We praise you, we bless you.. " got longer and longer.

So if the Anaphora is going to be aloud why shouldn't the Amens be returned to the people?  The question then becomes who has the right to retun the Amens to the people,  the parish priest, the diocesan bishop, the metropolitan, the patriarch, the Synod, an Ecumenical Council?  I would say the diocesan bishop.

Fr. Deacon Lance 
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« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2010, 09:37:26 AM »

In the 2006 Byzantine Catholic Liturgicon the rubrics still assign the deacon the Amens at the Epiclesis.  That was a parish depature if it was being done.

Yes. That's when it first began to bother me a bit.

The obvoius answer is when the Anaphora went quiet the deacon had to respond because the people couldn't hear the Epilcesis to respond to it.  Also to fill that silence settings of "We praise you, we bless you.. " got longer and longer.

Are you sure about this? Where do you find your information?

So if the Anaphora is going to be aloud why shouldn't the Amens be returned to the people?  

Well....I am also not a fan of the prayers being said aloud when it says "quietly" (mystically).  Wink
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2010, 10:57:40 AM »

^
Friend, you give the impression of emphasizing form at the expense of substance. Enough with this rubrics business!

Forgive me for being exasperated with you.

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« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2010, 11:14:18 AM »

The Barberini says nothing of people or deacons saying the "Amen."  It says that the priest says the prayer "mystically," and has the Amen following each part, but without a break between the prayer and the "Amen" to indicate who says it.

(Interestingly, there are only two blessings in the Epiclesis in Barberini: blessing over the bread, and over the cup, but no third blessing with a triple "Amen."  This makes sense, considering the third blessing, "Changing them by Your Holy Spirit," that we have/use now is actually redundant, since the first blessing is preceded by "send Your Holy Spirit down on us and on these gifts presented...")
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« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2010, 11:24:35 AM »

Friend, you give the impression of emphasizing form at the expense of substance. Enough with this rubrics business!

Forgive me for being exasperated with you.

If I disturb you, you are free to remove yourself from this thread.  I am Orthodox. I am interested in substance and form. Sometimes I need proper form to get me to the substance.

I am sorry that I exasperate you.
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« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »

The Barberini says nothing of people or deacons saying the "Amen."  It says that the priest says the prayer "mystically," and has the Amen following each part, but without a break between the prayer and the "Amen" to indicate who says it.

(Interestingly, there are only two blessings in the Epiclesis in Barberini: blessing over the bread, and over the cup, but no third blessing with a triple "Amen."  This makes sense, considering the third blessing, "Changing them by Your Holy Spirit," that we have/use now is actually redundant, since the first blessing is preceded by "send Your Holy Spirit down on us and on these gifts presented...")

Very interesting. Thank you Father!  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2010, 11:29:57 AM »

I've heard the people say "Amen" to the epiklesis only here in America, at an OCA church and at an Antiochian one. Never back home, never in a Greek church.
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« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2010, 11:38:56 AM »

I believe that as of 2004, it is the standard practice of the Church of Greece to say the Epiklesis aloud with the people responding Amen.   

Fr. George is right, Barbarini has the following form:

...and make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ
Amen
and that which is in the Cup the precious Blood of Your Christ, changing them by Your Holy Spirit
Amen

There is no mention of who says the Amen.   The Liturgy of St. James is the only consistant form we have, in which, both ancient and modern, the people say the Amen of the Epiklesis. 
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