OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 22, 2014, 10:34:04 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Silent prayers and opening of the Royal Doors  (Read 9125 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« on: January 26, 2010, 09:46:39 AM »

I have noticed differences in the Liturgy from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church--and sometimes variations between different priests within the same jurisdiction.  I am referring to the prescribed silent prayers of the priest during the Liturgy.  Sometmes the prayers are silent and sometimes they are not.  Also, sometimes the Royal Doors are opened--and remain open during the entire Liturgy.  I am especially curious about the prayers of the priest where the people respond by saying, "Amen, Amen, Amen-Amen-Amen" during the Anaphora.  Any comments regarding these observations, (especially from clergy), would be welcomed.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 09:54:03 AM »

From my observation:

- Two schools of thought on the response of Amen during the Anaphora (remember, it's one long prayer from "It is proper and right" all the way through "And grant that with one voice and one heart...") seem to be, "it is a response for the deacons only, according to the rubrics," and "everyone should affirm the prayer with the Amen."

- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."

- As for the doors, ISTM that the practice of opening/closing doors is more monastic & Slavic than Greek, which is likely why one doesn't see it in Greek-influenced parishes.  It is likely (this is a guess, mind you) a continuation of the same principle that led to solid icon screens (rather than separated icons or low screens) and silent prayers: if people don't respect the Liturgy, make it more mystical.  Beyond that, I don't know - I guess I'm just not exposed enough to the issue to comment further.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 09:55:23 AM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 10:09:26 AM »

From my observation:

- Two schools of thought on the response of Amen during the Anaphora (remember, it's one long prayer from "It is proper and right" all the way through "And grant that with one voice and one heart...") seem to be, "it is a response for the deacons only, according to the rubrics," and "everyone should affirm the prayer with the Amen."

- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."

- As for the doors, ISTM that the practice of opening/closing doors is more monastic & Slavic than Greek, which is likely why one doesn't see it in Greek-influenced parishes.  It is likely (this is a guess, mind you) a continuation of the same principle that led to solid icon screens (rather than separated icons or low screens) and silent prayers: if people don't respect the Liturgy, make it more mystical.  Beyond that, I don't know - I guess I'm just not exposed enough to the issue to comment further.

It is not uniform within the Slavic churches to close the doors, particularly among those who came under the Eastern Catholic unions prior to the Nikonian period in Russia. I have heard two theories to explain this. One deals with the some of the Slavs being within the Patriarch of Constantinople's jurisdiction through the fall in 1453, thus the Greek influence, the other that the practice of closing the doors was abandoned as a Latin influence. I tend to doubt the Latinizing answer, as Father George points out the example of the Greek practice. I would be interested to learn about the Old-Rite practice on this issue.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:12:52 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 10:16:20 AM »

From my observation:
....
- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."
....
Can we explore this a bit further? I, too, have wondered about "silent" prayers. Does it mean literally "completely inaudible and unuttered, remaining only within the thought processes of the priest"; or more that it is the priest's personal prayer, which the people observe? If "silent" truly means so mystical that the people have no part whatsoever in the prayer, then why can we find them so easily in a Liturgy book? They might be silent to the ears, but not to the eyes. All of what I have just said is really a question, having put into writing how I'm trying to sort this out.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 10:32:24 AM »

From my observation:

- Two schools of thought on the response of Amen during the Anaphora (remember, it's one long prayer from "It is proper and right" all the way through "And grant that with one voice and one heart...") seem to be, "it is a response for the deacons only, according to the rubrics," and "everyone should affirm the prayer with the Amen."

- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."

- As for the doors, ISTM that the practice of opening/closing doors is more monastic & Slavic than Greek, which is likely why one doesn't see it in Greek-influenced parishes.  It is likely (this is a guess, mind you) a continuation of the same principle that led to solid icon screens (rather than separated icons or low screens) and silent prayers: if people don't respect the Liturgy, make it more mystical.  Beyond that, I don't know - I guess I'm just not exposed enough to the issue to comment further.

Thank you Father.  I have another question based on your response.  Is it permissible to ignore rubrics?
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 10:46:15 AM »

From my observation:

- Two schools of thought on the response of Amen during the Anaphora (remember, it's one long prayer from "It is proper and right" all the way through "And grant that with one voice and one heart...") seem to be, "it is a response for the deacons only, according to the rubrics," and "everyone should affirm the prayer with the Amen."

- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."

- As for the doors, ISTM that the practice of opening/closing doors is more monastic & Slavic than Greek, which is likely why one doesn't see it in Greek-influenced parishes.  It is likely (this is a guess, mind you) a continuation of the same principle that led to solid icon screens (rather than separated icons or low screens) and silent prayers: if people don't respect the Liturgy, make it more mystical.  Beyond that, I don't know - I guess I'm just not exposed enough to the issue to comment further.

Thank you Father.  I have another question based on your response.  Is it permissible to ignore rubrics?

But the question remains, whose rubrics? When does a custom or practice become a rubric? We know that there are differences that have developed over the centuries and within national churches within Orthodoxy.
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 12:57:04 PM »

From my observation:
....
- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."
....
Can we explore this a bit further? I, too, have wondered about "silent" prayers. Does it mean literally "completely inaudible and unuttered, remaining only within the thought processes of the priest"; or more that it is the priest's personal prayer, which the people observe? If "silent" truly means so mystical that the people have no part whatsoever in the prayer, then why can we find them so easily in a Liturgy book? They might be silent to the ears, but not to the eyes. All of what I have just said is really a question, having put into writing how I'm trying to sort this out.
It means with low voice.
Back home that is how we did the liturgy. Out of the anaphora only the words preceding the Sanctus were said in a raising tone, and the words of institution as well. The epiklesis was inaudible bat we knew its time because it was marked by three, short clear rings of a handbell that gave the signal to the bell ringer in the belfry to ring the bells.
Nobody said any "Amen, amen, amen..."
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 01:13:31 PM »

Nobody said any "Amen, amen, amen..."

I must admit that I am a bit disturbed by that part. This was also done at my parish when I was a Ruthenian Catholic, and I was disturbed--though I did not know why it disturbed me.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 02:50:15 PM »

It is not uniform within the Slavic churches to close the doors, particularly among those who came under the Eastern Catholic unions prior to the Nikonian period in Russia. I have heard two theories to explain this. One deals with the some of the Slavs being within the Patriarch of Constantinople's jurisdiction through the fall in 1453, thus the Greek influence, the other that the practice of closing the doors was abandoned as a Latin influence. I tend to doubt the Latinizing answer, as Father George points out the example of the Greek practice. I would be interested to learn about the Old-Rite practice on this issue.

The practice of closing the doors is also found in Old Believer practice. Here is a video of an Old Believer Liturgy in Russia and the doors are closed until the priest brings out communion. I've seen this done in every Russian church I've ever been to. I believe that the doors are closed at the consecration and then opened when communion is brought out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVpkDR-OxSw&feature=related
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 02:52:00 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,576


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 03:01:54 PM »

It is not uniform within the Slavic churches to close the doors, particularly among those who came under the Eastern Catholic unions prior to the Nikonian period in Russia. I have heard two theories to explain this. One deals with the some of the Slavs being within the Patriarch of Constantinople's jurisdiction through the fall in 1453, thus the Greek influence, the other that the practice of closing the doors was abandoned as a Latin influence. I tend to doubt the Latinizing answer, as Father George points out the example of the Greek practice. I would be interested to learn about the Old-Rite practice on this issue.

The practice of closing the doors is also found in Old Believer practice. Here is a video of an Old Believer Liturgy in Russia and the doors are closed until the priest brings out communion. I've seen this done in every Russian church I've ever been to. I believe that the doors are closed at the consecration and then opened when communion is brought out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVpkDR-OxSw&feature=related

Thank you. As a side note, over the years I have found that there are certain tonal similarities between the chant of the Old Believers and the Rusyn plainchant. The anaphora tone used in this video echoes to some extent the chant used by the Rusyns in the anaphora for the Liturgy of St. Basil. Not exactly but enough to allow a musicologist to trace a common root.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 03:06:15 PM »

From my observation:
....
- As for the silent prayers, again the two schools of thought seem to be "they are supposed to be silent according to the rubrics" and "there is no reason other than the rubric to keep them silent."
....
Can we explore this a bit further? I, too, have wondered about "silent" prayers. Does it mean literally "completely inaudible and unuttered, remaining only within the thought processes of the priest"; or more that it is the priest's personal prayer, which the people observe? If "silent" truly means so mystical that the people have no part whatsoever in the prayer, then why can we find them so easily in a Liturgy book? They might be silent to the ears, but not to the eyes. All of what I have just said is really a question, having put into writing how I'm trying to sort this out.

I should have been more precise in my language; not "silent," but "generally inaudible" to those not in the Sanctuary.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 03:09:34 PM »

Thank you Father.  I have another question based on your response.  Is it permissible to ignore rubrics?

Eh, that's debatable.  We already do, by omitting certain litanies & prayers from the Liturgy; very few people actually do the entire Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as it appears officially.  The fall-back position is simple, though, coming from the Church: do what your Bishop tells you to (or allows you to).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 03:19:20 PM »

Eh, that's debatable.  We already do, by omitting certain litanies & prayers from the Liturgy; very few people actually do the entire Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as it appears officially.  The fall-back position is simple, though, coming from the Church: do what your Bishop tells you to (or allows you to).

Understood.  Smiley
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 09:19:57 PM »

If we look to the Greek Liturgy of St. James the Epiclesis is aloud and the people respond Amen.  The same was once true of the other Byzantine Liturgies and is still true of the Syiac Orthodox Liturgies.  I think the logical conclusion is that the reason the rubric now specifies the deacon alone respond Amen is because he is the only one who can hear it since the Epiclesis is recited quietly.  If a hierarch allows the Epiclesis to be taken aloud the people should be given back the Amen that was originally theirs.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 10:05:43 PM »

If we look to the Greek Liturgy of St. James the Epiclesis is aloud and the people respond Amen.  The same was once true of the other Byzantine Liturgies and is still true of the Syiac Orthodox Liturgies.  I think the logical conclusion is that the reason the rubric now specifies the deacon alone respond Amen is because he is the only one who can hear it since the Epiclesis is recited quietly.  If a hierarch allows the Epiclesis to be taken aloud the people should be given back the Amen that was originally theirs.
IIRC there are prohibitions about saying prayers silently in the Justinian Code (the Novels).

The Copts also say the Epiclesis and the responses out loud, led by the deacon.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 10:53:16 PM »

If we look to the Greek Liturgy of St. James the Epiclesis is aloud and the people respond Amen.  The same was once true of the other Byzantine Liturgies and is still true of the Syiac Orthodox Liturgies.  I think the logical conclusion is that the reason the rubric now specifies the deacon alone respond Amen is because he is the only one who can hear it since the Epiclesis is recited quietly.

That was my conclusion, also. 
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 11:07:58 PM »

Nowadays, at my parish, at least, we've gone back to the older custom:  the priest recites the Epiclesis aloud, and the people respond.
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2010, 10:13:51 AM »

Nowadays, at my parish, at least, we've gone back to the older custom:  the priest recites the Epiclesis aloud, and the people respond.

So then the rubrics were changed?
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2010, 10:59:08 AM »

Nowadays, at my parish, at least, we've gone back to the older custom:  the priest recites the Epiclesis aloud, and the people respond.

So then the rubrics were changed?

Not formally - more like "disregarded."  There are many clergy who read the Anaphora aloud & the people respond with the "Amen"s.  I know someone, somewhere will object, which is fine, but I do caution anyone who does not do the full Divine Liturgy with every litany, prayer, psalm, etc. against being too vehement in their objection.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2010, 11:17:20 AM »

Not formally - more like "disregarded."  There are many clergy who read the Anaphora aloud & the people respond with the "Amen"s.  I know someone, somewhere will object, which is fine, but I do caution anyone who does not do the full Divine Liturgy with every litany, prayer, psalm, etc. against being too vehement in their objection.

Do the rubrics state that the full Divine Liturgy must be celebrated?

Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2010, 12:07:50 PM »

Nowadays, at my parish, at least, we've gone back to the older custom:  the priest recites the Epiclesis aloud, and the people respond.
Because the practice has completely fallen out of the use of the various Orthodox churches, I believe that demands for its resuscitation can only come from an overeducated sort of parish. Just can't imagine the people back home-peasants, workers, for most part-coming up with such proposal.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2010, 12:39:23 PM »

Nowadays, at my parish, at least, we've gone back to the older custom:  the priest recites the Epiclesis aloud, and the people respond.
Because the practice has completely fallen out of the use of the various Orthodox churches, I believe that demands for its resuscitation can only come from an overeducated sort of parish. Just can't imagine the people back home-peasants, workers, for most part-coming up with such proposal.
No, they probably would just become anticlerical.

Dreptslavitor?  I've never seen that before.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2010, 01:11:47 PM »

they have been kind of anticlerical for as far as one can remember, but a peasant style form of anticlericalism that doesn't keep them from coming to church.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2010, 05:21:28 PM »

In the both Parishes I attend those Prayers are said loudly and in one people respond 'Amen' and in another one they not.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,352


metron ariston


« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 11:05:12 AM »

The earliest sources, from the fourth century, indicate that the anaphora was a central part of the liturgy.

But the advent of large cathedral churches -- especially ones with patriarchal and imperial retinues -- necessarily changed/shaped liturgical practices. According to St. Maximos the Confessor, the anaphora was recited "mystikos" (silently/quietly, i.e. not chanted aloud) during his time. Obviously, in a huge church like Hagia Sophia with thousands of clamoring bodies, simply reading something in the altar would not be audible to the hoi polloi. So, from at least the sixth century, the anaphora was "silent." The earliest "rubrics" we have, from the ninth century, also call for "silent" prayers. Eventually, this produced a whole theology of "mystery," complemented by a high iconostasis, closing the Beautiful Gates and extended chanting, so as to fill the silence. Such was the case in most locales for many centuries (except maybe in churches built by the Venetians). That's how they do it on Mt. Athos and every parish I've been to in Greece, Ukraine, Bulgaria & Romania.  

With the advent of modern liturgical scholarship in the 50s and 60s, and the discovery of this history, some parishes have started to read everything aloud, for all to hear. In North America, SVS has been the main force behind the movement, which usually goes hand-and-hand with Schmemannite Eucharistic theology.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 11:07:28 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2010, 12:46:40 PM »

The earliest sources, from the fourth century, indicate that the anaphora was a central part of the liturgy.

But the advent of large cathedral churches -- especially ones with patriarchal and imperial retinues -- necessarily changed/shaped liturgical practices. According to St. Maximos the Confessor, the anaphora was recited "mystikos" (silently/quietly, i.e. not chanted aloud) during his time. Obviously, in a huge church like Hagia Sophia with thousands of clamoring bodies, simply reading something in the altar would not be audible to the hoi polloi. So, from at least the sixth century, the anaphora was "silent." The earliest "rubrics" we have, from the ninth century, also call for "silent" prayers. Eventually, this produced a whole theology of "mystery," complemented by a high iconostasis, closing the Beautiful Gates and extended chanting, so as to fill the silence. Such was the case in most locales for many centuries (except maybe in churches built by the Venetians). That's how they do it on Mt. Athos and every parish I've been to in Greece, Ukraine, Bulgaria & Romania.  

With the advent of modern liturgical scholarship in the 50s and 60s, and the discovery of this history, some parishes have started to read everything aloud, for all to hear. In North America, SVS has been the main force behind the movement, which usually goes hand-and-hand with Schmemannite Eucharistic theology.


This is pretty much what I was taught.  'Silent Prayers' are a mercy in some ways for the priest, who has to shout through most of the service to be heard in a large church.  Frankly, it is very hard to get through Orthros and Divine Liturgy (along with a reasonable sermon) at the top of one's voice.  Also, it isn't very aesthetical or calming to have an entire service shouted at the congregation.

To be honest, I don't think it helps people any more to do one or the other, as I have not seen much of a difference between congregations that do and those that don't.  They all struggle with the same problems with only slightly different symptoms.  One is proud of heritage, the other proud of correct knowledge.

I like having the Doors closed when I can so that my desperate attempts to get the attention of a mesmerized or drowsy alter boy aren't seen by the entire congregation so as to distract them from prayer.  For times when the Doors are open, I have employed the use of a laser pointer, which seems to be very effective in waking them from their semi-comas and directing them to the processional candles when needed.  Wink
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 11:53:56 AM »

This is pretty much what I was taught.  'Silent Prayers' are a mercy in some ways for the priest, who has to shout through most of the service to be heard in a large church.  Frankly, it is very hard to get through Orthros and Divine Liturgy (along with a reasonable sermon) at the top of one's voice.  Also, it isn't very aesthetical or calming to have an entire service shouted at the congregation.

To be honest, I don't think it helps people any more to do one or the other, as I have not seen much of a difference between congregations that do and those that don't.  They all struggle with the same problems with only slightly different symptoms.  One is proud of heritage, the other proud of correct knowledge.

I like having the Doors closed when I can so that my desperate attempts to get the attention of a mesmerized or drowsy alter boy aren't seen by the entire congregation so as to distract them from prayer.  For times when the Doors are open, I have employed the use of a laser pointer, which seems to be very effective in waking them from their semi-comas and directing them to the processional candles when needed.  Wink

Bless Father,

Great post!  Smiley
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 12:57:00 PM »

This is pretty much what I was taught.  'Silent Prayers' are a mercy in some ways for the priest, who has to shout through most of the service to be heard in a large church.  Frankly, it is very hard to get through Orthros and Divine Liturgy (along with a reasonable sermon) at the top of one's voice.  Also, it isn't very aesthetical or calming to have an entire service shouted at the congregation.

To be honest, I don't think it helps people any more to do one or the other, as I have not seen much of a difference between congregations that do and those that don't.  They all struggle with the same problems with only slightly different symptoms.  One is proud of heritage, the other proud of correct knowledge.

I like having the Doors closed when I can so that my desperate attempts to get the attention of a mesmerized or drowsy alter boy aren't seen by the entire congregation so as to distract them from prayer.  For times when the Doors are open, I have employed the use of a laser pointer, which seems to be very effective in waking them from their semi-comas and directing them to the processional candles when needed.  Wink

Bless Father,

Great post!  Smiley

God bless you!

I advise all those who argue for 'this' or 'that' to first look for evidence that something works, as in bears fruit.  Very often we get in silly arguments over things that have no real effect on us, but skip over important decisions that have dire consequences.

Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 02:09:13 PM »

God bless you!

I advise all those who argue for 'this' or 'that' to first look for evidence that something works, as in bears fruit.  Very often we get in silly arguments over things that have no real effect on us, but skip over important decisions that have dire consequences.

Yes!
How about this Father:  If prayers are being said aloud during Liturgy and you are disturbed---say the Jesus Prayer on your prayer rope. 

If prayers are being said quietly during Liturgy and you prefer that they are said aloud---say the Jesus Prayer on your prayer rope.  Grin
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2010, 02:58:56 PM »

God bless you!

I advise all those who argue for 'this' or 'that' to first look for evidence that something works, as in bears fruit.  Very often we get in silly arguments over things that have no real effect on us, but skip over important decisions that have dire consequences.

Yes!
How about this Father:  If prayers are being said aloud during Liturgy and you are disturbed---say the Jesus Prayer on your prayer rope. 

If prayers are being said quietly during Liturgy and you prefer that they are said aloud---say the Jesus Prayer on your prayer rope.  Grin

I was disciplined once for using a prayer rope during a service.  The priest told me, "When we pray, we pray together.  Use the Jesus Prayer outside of the services."

He was right.

When we come together, we pray together.

The only times I have used the Jesus Prayer in services is when I was attending services in a language I could not speak and had no understanding of what is going on.  Of course, major services I already know, and was able to 'fill in the blanks' from memory.  But, we must do our best to pray together when we are together.

So, if you are annoyed that prayers are silent or aloud, the key is to just get through it with the remembrance of how much you annoy other people.  Well, at least that's what I do.  Wink


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »

The priest told me, "When we pray, we pray together.  Use the Jesus Prayer outside of the services."

He was right.

When we come together, we pray together.
Oh my.  I do not feel that I am separating myself from the parish when I am moved to silently say the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Liturgy. 

Other priests have told me it is okay.

I think I will stick to that advice.

Thank you father.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2010, 05:38:54 PM »

The priest told me, "When we pray, we pray together.  Use the Jesus Prayer outside of the services."

He was right.

When we come together, we pray together.
Oh my.  I do not feel that I am separating myself from the parish when I am moved to silently say the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Liturgy. 

Other priests have told me it is okay.

I think I will stick to that advice.

Thank you father.



I'm sure you will do what you want.  Only remember that we can 'feel' really good about bad things, too.  Otherwise, there would be a lot less sin in the world.  I hazard to guess that about half the sins we commit give us good feelings.  I can feel like I am 'blessing' another when in fact he feels like I am 'cursing' him.  Ever been stuck on a bus or an airplane with an overly-friendly passenger who can't stop talking (wait, that describes me!  Cheesy )?

Anyway, since your signature identifies you as an Antiochian, I would also warn you to never, ever have your prayer rope out in front of Metropolitan Philip.  He has also admonished people for prayer ropes during services.  I'm sure your priest, if he is Antiochian, would never openly counsel you to disobey your Metropolitan.  So, if you are Antiochian, you may want to ponder what I am saying a bit more.  It is a little more than just my personal opinion, but an instruction I have received, one that was echoed in seminary (it may still be against policy to use a prayer rope during services at Three Hierarch's Chapel at St. Vladimir's, but it has been a while since I was there as a student) and by others in authority.

If you are saying a different prayer from what others are praying, then you are separating yourself and having your own service.  Like I said, there are times when the service is totally inaccessible, and so it is better to pray on your own than to let your mind wander.  There are silent periods when no prayers are going on, and it is fine to pray on your own.  Not when the service is on.


Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2010, 08:03:36 PM »

The priest told me, "When we pray, we pray together.  Use the Jesus Prayer outside of the services."

He was right.

When we come together, we pray together.
Oh my.  I do not feel that I am separating myself from the parish when I am moved to silently say the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Liturgy. 

Other priests have told me it is okay.

I think I will stick to that advice.

Thank you father.



I'm sure you will do what you want.  Only remember that we can 'feel' really good about bad things, too.  Otherwise, there would be a lot less sin in the world.  I hazard to guess that about half the sins we commit give us good feelings.  I can feel like I am 'blessing' another when in fact he feels like I am 'cursing' him.  Ever been stuck on a bus or an airplane with an overly-friendly passenger who can't stop talking (wait, that describes me!  Cheesy )?

Anyway, since your signature identifies you as an Antiochian, I would also warn you to never, ever have your prayer rope out in front of Metropolitan Philip.  He has also admonished people for prayer ropes during services.  I'm sure your priest, if he is Antiochian, would never openly counsel you to disobey your Metropolitan.  So, if you are Antiochian, you may want to ponder what I am saying a bit more.  It is a little more than just my personal opinion, but an instruction I have received, one that was echoed in seminary (it may still be against policy to use a prayer rope during services at Three Hierarch's Chapel at St. Vladimir's, but it has been a while since I was there as a student) and by others in authority.

If you are saying a different prayer from what others are praying, then you are separating yourself and having your own service.  Like I said, there are times when the service is totally inaccessible, and so it is better to pray on your own than to let your mind wander.  There are silent periods when no prayers are going on, and it is fine to pray on your own.  Not when the service is on.




Sorry Father excuse my ignorance but isn't it possible to pray the Jesus prayer and participate in the Liturgy?
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2010, 08:17:14 PM »

Quote
  He has also admonished people for prayer ropes during services
.
Rightly so. They look funny when worn by laymen  Roll Eyes
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2010, 09:22:42 PM »

The Jordanville Prayer book also admonishes people not to pray their own prayers during the Liturgy.

Quote
Then, having bowed to the right and the left, one stands in one's place and listens to the psalms and prayers read in church, but one does not say to oneself other prayers of one's own choosing nor read them according to books different from the church chanting, for such things the holy Apostle Paul condemns as having forsaken the assembly of the Church. (Hebrews 10:25)

Source: p. 388 of The Jordanville Prayerbook, Fourth Edition

The Liturgy is a work of the people. We aren't to be going off on our tangentel prayers, but to be active participants in the service going on around us.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2010, 10:00:51 PM »

The Jordanville Prayer book also admonishes people not to pray their own prayers during the Liturgy.

Quote
Then, having bowed to the right and the left, one stands in one's place and listens to the psalms and prayers read in church, but one does not say to oneself other prayers of one's own choosing nor read them according to books different from the church chanting, for such things the holy Apostle Paul condemns as having forsaken the assembly of the Church. (Hebrews 10:25)

Source: p. 388 of The Jordanville Prayerbook, Fourth Edition

The Liturgy is a work of the people. We aren't to be going off on our tangentel prayers, but to be active participants in the service going on around us.



You get the Gold Star!  I was trying to remember that reference, thank you so much.

We need to pray together when we come together, otherwise the service becomes self-oriented and is no different than when we are alone.

I suppose when you have Metropolitan Philip and ROCOR in agreement on something... Smiley

Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 12:49:45 AM »

 i have vested bishops archbishops and metropolitans.  i can not remember one who did not remove his prayer rope prior to the vesting before liturgy.  it is a sign that he is there to pray communally.  prayer ropes are for private prayer...liturgy..vespers..matins..are public and communal prayer services..a time when we collectively pray together.  that is why you dont wear a prayer ropr during liturgy...the same reason the bishop takes his prayer rope off before liturgy.
Logged

arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 02:49:45 AM »

i have vested bishops archbishops and metropolitans.  i can not remember one who did not remove his prayer rope prior to the vesting before liturgy.  it is a sign that he is there to pray communally.  prayer ropes are for private prayer...liturgy..vespers..matins..are public and communal prayer services..a time when we collectively pray together.  that is why you dont wear a prayer ropr during liturgy...the same reason the bishop takes his prayer rope off before liturgy.

This is very true but don't forget the practical reason, it is very hard to served liturgy with a prayer wrapped around your hand. Why does the bishop not remove it while he is attending the service?
Logged

Joseph
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,070



« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 09:00:20 AM »

Two different priests at my parish, have closed the Beautiful Gates during the preparation of Holy Communion only, then open them when the Communion is distributed.  When the bishop celebrates, the Beautiful Gates were opened when he entered the Sanctuary, after taking Kairos, when he entered to cense during the Doxology, but I do not recall when they had earlier been closed.

I recall that the choir or chanters remaining silent while the priest recited the prayers of the Consecretion, is somewhat of a controversy in Greece, a development of the past 50 years or so?  I chant the "We Praise Thee..." hymn, and the lead chanter (an older man-Greek immigrant) is always pressing me to start while I am waiting for the 3 Amens.

Finally, just my thought, I'm not a linguist, and don't even read Greek.  However, while I know that "mysticos" is translated as "silently," could it also be that those prayers that are not chanted, were to be read "mystically?"  Mystically is not "silently."  In the Cherubic Hymn, "mysticos" is translated as "mystically."

One more thing, weren't the Royal Doors actually the doors to the Nave from the Narthex?
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 09:24:38 AM »

I'm sure you will do what you want.  

No Father. It is an obedience.  It is not good to assume that I am acting on my own as some sort of rebellion--you do not know me.

The Jesus Prayer can become a part of a person's prayer rule (to pray ceaselessly) even while they sleep.

If my conscience is pricked because rubrics are not being followed, instead of focusing on the neglect of the rubric, or what other people may be doing at a specific point of the Liturgy, I am going to say the Jesus Prayer and focus on my sinfulness and unworthiness (for that brief moment).  If one day, Met. Philip happens to be at my parish and admonishes me--so be it.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your input.  Forgive this sinner.

Mickey
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:31:03 AM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 09:38:05 AM »

The Liturgy is a work of the people. We aren't to be going off on our tangentel prayers, but to be active participants in the service going on around us.

Amen.

Is this saying that the Jesus Prayer is "a tangential prayer"?  Does Jordanville say anything else?  I was there in October and I believe I recall seeing the prayer rope on the monks. Also, do the Jordanville monks keep the Royal Doors open all the time?  Do they say the quiet prayers aloud? Do the people say the Amens during the anaphora?  Since you are sourcing Jordanville-----what does Jordanville have to say about these things?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:42:53 AM by Mickey » Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,352


metron ariston


« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 09:59:51 AM »

Also, do the Jordanville monks keep the Royal Doors open all the time?

No.

 Do they say the quiet prayers aloud?

No.

Do the people say the Amens during the anaphora?

No.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2010, 10:03:03 AM »


No.


No.


No.



I did not think so.  Wink
Logged
AWR
Greetings from the Southern Jersey Shore.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 240


Expelled from Paradise


WWW
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2010, 10:21:57 AM »

A question about saying the “the Priest's Silent Prayers in the Divine Liturgy”.

  • Do most parishes that say them out loud also skip the “Litany of the Catechumens”?

I ask this because the parishes around me that say them out loud skip this litany.

  • Is this done to save time?
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,352


metron ariston


« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2010, 10:22:23 AM »

Finally, just my thought, I'm not a linguist, and don't even read Greek.  However, while I know that "mysticos" is translated as "silently," could it also be that those prayers that are not chanted, were to be read "mystically?"

The most accurate literal translation for mystikos in this context is probably "private" or "secret." That's how the word is used in the LXX. However, in the rubrics, something read mystikos is the opposite of an ekphonesis (something exclaimed aloud). That's why mystikos is often translated as "silently" (although secretly is also a reasonable opposite of something exclaimed aloud). All translation is contextual. What mystikos means in rubrics is different from what it means in hymns, or some other genre.

One more thing, weren't the Royal Doors actually the doors to the Nave from the Narthex?

Yeah. They were the doors for the Emperor. In Greek, the gates into the altar are always called the "Beautiful Gates." However, in Slavonic, they've been calling them "Royal Doors" for at least a couple of centuries.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2010, 10:50:09 AM »


isn't it possible to pray the Jesus prayer and participate in the Liturgy?

I believe that it is.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2010, 12:59:54 PM »

I'm sure you will do what you want.  

No Father. It is an obedience.  It is not good to assume that I am acting on my own as some sort of rebellion--you do not know me.

The Jesus Prayer can become a part of a person's prayer rule (to pray ceaselessly) even while they sleep.

If my conscience is pricked because rubrics are not being followed, instead of focusing on the neglect of the rubric, or what other people may be doing at a specific point of the Liturgy, I am going to say the Jesus Prayer and focus on my sinfulness and unworthiness (for that brief moment).  If one day, Met. Philip happens to be at my parish and admonishes me--so be it.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your input.  Forgive this sinner.

Mickey

You are right, I do not know you.  However, you will do what you want to do.

If you want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you will do it.

If you do not want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you won't.

If you want to obey, you will, and you won't when you won't.

There is no obedience in this case as you have so far described it, only choice.  Unless, of course, you priest has demanded that you pray the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy.  Then you have an obedience.

There is a difference between an obedience (i.e. a command) and permission (i.e. a choice).  If your priest is demanding that you say a certain prayer during the Liturgy, then he is calling you to obedience. 

Again, the rubrics do not call for such a prayer during services, so you are having your own service, albeit with his permission for you to make that choice.

The only way to truly test your rebelliousness would be to give you an actual obedience that you don't like (for example, being made to stand on your knees during the whole service, unless you enjoy sore knees Smiley ).  Then we can start talking about obedience.

However, this thread was about rubrics, and the rubrics do not call for the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Services.  We are called to follow the rubrics as closely as we can, in consultation with the bishop who oversees and pastors the community.  It is not the priest's decision or a layman's decision what goes on in the services, because neither of has his name on the antimension.

In the end, you will do what you want.  You will obey when you want to obey, and you will pick what you think is important to do and do it.  If you feel bad about it, the problem is with you.  Frankly, we all act according to our free will, and we can only hope that we are open enough to God to be transformed by Him so we will choose correctly. 
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2010, 01:41:48 PM »

You are right, I do not know you.

Correct.

However, you will do what you want to do.

Wrong. I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

If you want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you will do it.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

If you do not want to do the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy, then you won't.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.


If you want to obey, you will, and you won't when you won't.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

There is no obedience in this case as you have so far described it, only choice.  Unless, of course, you priest has demanded that you pray the Jesus Prayer during the Liturgy.  Then you have an obedience.

I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.

There is a difference between an obedience (i.e. a command) and permission (i.e. a choice). 

I know

If your priest is demanding that you say a certain prayer during the Liturgy, then he is calling you to obedience. 


I will do what I do out of obedience to my spiritual father.


Again, the rubrics do not call for such a prayer during services, so you are having your own service, albeit with his permission for you to make that choice.


The rubrics also do not call for the anaphora prayers to be said aloud.
I am not having my own service. The prayer of the heart is not a disruption to the  Liturgy.

The only way to truly test your rebelliousness would be to give you an actual obedience that you don't like (for example, being made to stand on your knees during the whole service, unless you enjoy sore knees .  Then we can start talking about obedience.

I will be obedient to my spiritual father.

However, this thread was about rubrics, and the rubrics do not call for the Jesus Prayer during the Divine Services.


They do not say it is illegal either.


We are called to follow the rubrics as closely as we can, in consultation with the bishop who oversees and pastors the community.


Please show me where the rubrics say that I cannot say the prayer of the heart during Liturgy. 



In the end, you will do what you want.


You can keep saying this until the cows come home, father.  But in the end, I will be obedient to my spiritual father.


You will obey when you want to obey, and you will pick what you think is important to do and do it.

 I will be obedient to my spiritual father.


If you feel bad about it, the problem is with you.

I do not “FEEL” bad about it.  “FEELINGS” are irrelevant. 


Frankly, we all act according to our free will, and we can only hope that we are open enough to God to be transformed by Him so we will choose correctly. 

Amen.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2010, 02:07:22 PM »

Mickey,

It seems you are not getting my point about the difference between 'permission' and 'obedience,' but this is neither the correct thread or the best means to explain it at this point.  I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

The service books don't go into detail about what you are not supposed to do, because otherwise they would be enormous.  The service books tell us what to do, and we are expected to do just what is called for.  Any additions or subtractions are the prerogative of the bishop in consultation with his brothers on the Synod.

Praying your own prayers when everyone else is praying together means you are no longer part of the assembly.  You are on your own even in a room full of people.  You are doing your own thing.  When we come together, we are supposed to work together, not each one praying for himself as he sees fit.  Again, if you don't understand this at this point, there isn't much else I can say.

At this point, I don't think I will go on any further with you about this, Mickey.  I wish you well, and I am sure you are a better Christian than me.  However, we are not helping each other by going round and round.

As they say in Spain, adíos, amigoWink

Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2010, 02:36:55 PM »

The Liturgy is a work of the people. We aren't to be going off on our tangentel prayers, but to be active participants in the service going on around us.

Amen.

Is this saying that the Jesus Prayer is "a tangential prayer"?  Does Jordanville say anything else?  I was there in October and I believe I recall seeing the prayer rope on the monks. Also, do the Jordanville monks keep the Royal Doors open all the time?  Do they say the quiet prayers aloud? Do the people say the Amens during the anaphora?  Since you are sourcing Jordanville-----what does Jordanville have to say about these things?

The book I sourced is a Prayerbook. It is a book of prayers and has commentary about praying. It is not a book on liturgical rubrics, nor is it a book for clergy to use during the Liturgy.

It is a prayerbook to be used by the Laity.

At the back of the book, on the page I referenced, it has an article on "How to pray in Church." Saying the Jesus prayer is not advised. And yes, since the Jesus prayer is not part of the Liturgy, it would be a tangental prayer.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2010, 02:43:36 PM »

I could be wrong Mickey, but it seems that you are saying that if the rubrics are not done to the "t" you are just going to pull out your prayer rope and say the Jesus prayer.

Isn't that the equivelant of taking your toys and going into another sandbox?

If the priest serving is guilty of Liturgical abuse, contact your Bishop. If he is conducting the Liturgy in accordance with the instructions given to him by the Bishop, don't sweat it.

Are we there to analyze the Liturgy or pray the Liturgy?

Food for thought...
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2010, 02:43:46 PM »

It seems you are not getting my point about the difference between 'permission' and 'obedience,'

I understand perfectly father.

I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

…and neither will I.

Praying your own prayers when everyone else is praying together means you are no longer part of the assembly.  

You are still not understanding.  The prayer of the heart is not a prayer I made up to disconnect myself from the assembly.  It is the Jesus Prayer.  It is possible to participate in the Liturgy while saying the Jesus Prayer.  

You are on your own even in a room full of people.

No I am not.

You are doing your own thing.

Wrong. I am praying the Liturgy…sometimes with the Jesus Prayer in my heart.


When we come together, we are supposed to work together, not each one praying for himself as he sees fit.  

I am praying for everyone as I sit in awe during the Divine Liturgy sometimes with the Jesus Prayer in my heart.


Again, if you don't understand this at this point, there isn't much else I can say.

With all due respect, I believe it is you who do not understand.

At this point, I don't think I will go on any further with you about this, Mickey.  I wish you well, and I am sure you are a better Christian than me.  However, we are not helping each other by going round and round.

I am a terrible sinner. It is you who has been blessed with the Mystery of Holy Orders.  I am nothing but a worm trying to be obedient to my spiritual father.

I do not want to argue with a priest of the Holy Orthodox Church….so I will also stop the discourse at this point.  I will leave you with a wonderful writng!

Slava Isusu Christu!



The Power of the Komboskini, of the Jesus Prayer
Once, there was a monk from the Monastery of Saint Paul who had gone to the Church of Saint Gerasimos on the island of Cephallonia. During the Divine Liturgy, he stood in the Altar and was praying with his komboski -the prayer of the heart Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us- while outside they were chanting. They had also brought a possessed person into the church to be cured by Saint Gerasimos. While the monk was saying the prayer in the Altar, the demon was being seared outside and was shouting:
"Stop working that string, will you, monk, it is burning me."
The priest heard it, too, and said to the monk:
"Pray with our komboskini as much as you can, my brother, so that God's creature can be freed of the demon".
The demon then shouted in great anger:
"You, rotten priest, you. What are you telling him to pull that string for ? It is burning me!"The monk then prayed with his komboskini with even greater effort and the possessed man was delivered from the demon.
(EXCERPT FROM: “ATHONITE FATHERS AND ATHONITE MATTERS”)

« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 02:44:26 PM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2010, 02:50:04 PM »

I could be wrong Mickey, but it seems that you are saying that if the rubrics are not done to the "t" you are just going to pull out your prayer rope and say the Jesus prayer.

Yes, you are wrong.

Isn't that the equivelant of taking your toys and going into another sandbox?

You are comparing the Jesus Prayer to a toy in the sandbox?  Oh my!

If the priest serving is guilty of Liturgical abuse, contact your Bishop. If he is conducting the Liturgy in accordance with the instructions given to him by the Bishop, don't sweat it.

I am not the Liturgical police.

Are we there to analyze the Liturgy or pray the Liturgy?

To pray of course.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:00:25 PM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2010, 02:59:38 PM »

The book I sourced is a Prayerbook.

Yes. I have it.

At the back of the book, on the page I referenced, it has an article on "How to pray in Church." Saying the Jesus prayer is not advised.

Can you tell me where it says in the Jordanville prayer book that it is not advised to say the Jesus Prayer during Liturgy.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2010, 04:24:21 PM »

The Jesus Prayer is known to innumerable Orthodox, either as a rule of prayer or in addition to it, as a form of devotion, a short focal point that can be used at any moment, whatever the situation.

Metroplitan Anthony Bloom
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2010, 05:03:43 PM »

Metropolitans can make mistakes.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2010, 05:09:19 PM »

Metropolitans can make mistakes.

We are all wretched sinners.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2010, 05:16:32 PM »

The Jesus Prayer is known to innumerable Orthodox, either as a rule of prayer or in addition to it, as a form of devotion, a short focal point that can be used at any moment, whatever the situation.

Metroplitan Anthony Bloom
Fine. But if your focus is on the Jesus Prayer instead of the Divine Liturgy, why are you there?

That being said, there have been moments where in my own weakness my mind has wandered during Liturgy and I will use the Jesus Prayer in order to refocus on, but not replace, the Liturgy.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2010, 05:47:38 PM »


If my conscience is pricked because rubrics are not being followed,

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly.  Certainly it has been the custom to take them so but saying them aloud is not a violation of rubric only a change in custom.

From an OCA Priest's Servie Book by Archbishop Dmitri:

The priest prays: It is meet and right to hymn thee, to bless thee, to praise thee, to give thanks unto thee, and to worship thee in every place of thy dominion, for thou art God inexpressibie, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, everexisting, eternally the same, thou and thine only-begotten Son and thy Holy Spirit. Thou didst bring us from nonexistence into being, and when we had fallen away, didst raise us up again, and didst not cease to do all things until thou hadst brought us up to heaven, and hadst bestowed upon us thy kingdom, which is to come. For all these things we give thanks unto thee, and to thine only-begotten Son, and to thy Holy Spirit, for all things of which we know and of which we know not, for the benefits both revealed and unrevealed, which have been done for us. And we give thanks unto thee for this service which thou hast vouchsafed to accept from our hands, even though there stand beside thee thousands of Archangels and ten thousands of Angels, Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, borne aloft on their wings.

And the deacon, taking the holy star from the holy diskos, makes the sign of the cross above it, and having kissed it, he lays it aside.

Exclamation: Singing the hymn of victory, shouting, crying, and saying:

Choir: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord of Sabaoth, heaven and earth are full of thy glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

Then the deacon comes and stands on the right side, and taking a fan in his hand, waves it quietly with all heed and fear over the holy Gifts, so that flies or other insects may not settle on them.

The priest prays: With these blessed Powers, we also, O Master, Lover of man, cry and say, Holy art thou and all-holy, thou and thine only-begotten Son, and thy Holy Spirit; holy art thou and all-holy, and magnificent is thy glory, Who hast so loved thy world as to give thine only-begotten Son that all that believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life, Who when He had come and had fulfilled all the dispensation for us, in the night in which He was given up, or rather, gave Himself up, for the life of the world, took bread in His holy andimmaculate and blameless hands, and when He had given thanks, and blessed it, and hallowed it, and broken it, He gave it to His holy disciples and apostles, saying:

Exclamation: Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you, for the forgiveness of sins.

Choir: Amen.

While this is being said, the deacon shows the priest the holy diskos, holding his orarion with three fingers of his right hand, and in like manner when the priest says: Drink ye all of this, he shows him the holy chalice.

The priest, secretly: And likewise the cup after supper, saying:

Exclamation: Drink ye all of this; this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The priest prays: Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again,

Exclamation: Thine own of thine own we offer unto thee on behalf of all and for all.     While this is being said, the deacon puts aside the fan, and crossing his arms, elevates the holy diskos and the holy chalice, and makes a devout reverence.

Choir: We hymn thee, we bless thee, we give thanks unto thee, O Lord, and we pray unto thee, O our God.

The priest prays: Again we offer unto thee this rational and bloodless worship, and we call upon thee and pray thee, and supplicate thee: send down thy Holy Spirit upon us and upon these Gifts set forth.


And the deacon sets aside the fan and draws near to the priest, and they both make three reverences before holy table, praying within themselves and saying:

Priest: O Lord, who at the third hour didst send down thine all-holy Spirit upon thine Apostles, take not the same from us, O Good One, but renew Him in us who pray unto thee.

Deacon, the verse: A clean heart create in me, O God, and a right spirit renew in my inmost parts.

Again the priest: O Lord, who at the third hour . . .

Deacon, the verse: Cast me not away from thy face, and take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

And again the priest: O Lord, who at the third hour . . .

Then bowing his head and pointing to the holy Bread with his orarion, the deacon says: Bless, Master, the holy bread.

And the priest, rising, signs the holy Bread saying: And make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ.
   
Deacon: Amen. 

And again the deacon: Bless, Master, the holy cup.

And the priest blessing, says: And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of thy Christ.
   
Deacon: Amen. 

And again the deacon, showing both the holy Things, says: Bless, Master, both.

The priest, blessing both the holy Things, says: Changing them by thy Holy Spirit.

Deacon: Amen. Amen. Amen.



Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »

That being said, there have been moments where in my own weakness my mind has wandered during Liturgy and I will use the Jesus Prayer in order to refocus on, but not replace, the Liturgy.

I have never said that it replaces it!
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2010, 10:48:47 AM »

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly. 

Dear Deacon Lance,

That is not my real issue.  My issue is not saying it aloud (although I prefer it quietly).  My issue is the people responding in the parts where the rubrics state it is the Deacon's response.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2010, 10:15:09 AM »

The Old Orthodox Prayer Book has much information on when to bow during the liturgy throughout the year.  Then on page 348, it says this:

Other bows than those prescribed bows we dare not do, lest we cause scandal to people; rather, we stand with fear and trembling and with the Prayer of Jesus during the holy chanting.

And then we have this:

The holy Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov mentions that the lengthy services held in the Orthodox Church are also a good opportunity for praying with the prayer rope.  Often there are times when it is difficult to concentrate on the words being read or chanted, and it is easier to concentrate quietly on one’s own private prayers, be they extemporaneous prayers for some special need, repeating prayers or psalms that we know by heart, or repeating some short prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer, with the assistance of the prayer rope.  In fact, this often helps a person concentrate better on the service itself, something mentioned by St Seraphim of Sarov.  Of course, when we are praying at the services, our prayer is joined to that of the entire Church.
(On The Prayer Of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov)
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2010, 03:17:19 AM »

The Old Orthodox Prayer Book has much information on when to bow during the liturgy throughout the year.  Then on page 348, it says this:

Other bows than those prescribed bows we dare not do, lest we cause scandal to people; rather, we stand with fear and trembling and with the Prayer of Jesus during the holy chanting.

And then we have this:

The holy Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov mentions that the lengthy services held in the Orthodox Church are also a good opportunity for praying with the prayer rope.  Often there are times when it is difficult to concentrate on the words being read or chanted, and it is easier to concentrate quietly on one’s own private prayers, be they extemporaneous prayers for some special need, repeating prayers or psalms that we know by heart, or repeating some short prayer, especially the Jesus Prayer, with the assistance of the prayer rope.  In fact, this often helps a person concentrate better on the service itself, something mentioned by St Seraphim of Sarov.  Of course, when we are praying at the services, our prayer is joined to that of the entire Church.
(On The Prayer Of Jesus by Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov)

Well, since we've both been able to quote different sources with different opinions, I believe the safest bet would be for a person to follow the advice of their Spiritual Father.  Smiley

Going back to the rubrics, why does this bother you so much? I mean, things vary from parish to parish, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Why does this one element bother you?
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2010, 11:22:11 AM »

Let your conscience be pricked no more, because there is no rubric in the Liturgicon that specifies the Anaphora be said secretly. 

Dear Deacon Lance,

That is not my real issue.  My issue is not saying it aloud (although I prefer it quietly).  My issue is the people responding in the parts where the rubrics state it is the Deacon's response.

What happens when there is no Deacon?
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2010, 09:24:12 AM »

Well, since we've both been able to quote different sources with different opinions, I believe the safest bet would be for a person to follow the advice of their Spiritual Father.

Yeah, except the Jordanville prayer book does not say what you think it is saying.  Wink

Going back to the rubrics, why does this bother you so much? I mean, things vary from parish to parish, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Why does this one element bother you?

I suppose it is because I was never exposed to this before (and because it is not in the rubrics).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 09:25:18 AM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2010, 09:27:16 AM »


What happens when there is no Deacon?

What happens during the other parts of the Divine Liturgy when there is no Deacon?  Who chants the litanies etc.....? Wink
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 09:27:45 AM by Mickey » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2010, 10:49:30 AM »


What happens when there is no Deacon?

What happens during the other parts of the Divine Liturgy when there is no Deacon?  Who chants the litanies etc.....? Wink

The problem here is that you are not considering the context, which is:

"Bowing, the deacon points to the diskos with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Bless, master, the holy bread.

The priest signs the Lamb only.

Priest: And make this  bread the precious Body of thy Christ.

Still bowing, the deacon points to the chalice with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Amen. Bless, master, the holy cup.

The priest signs the cup.

Priest: And that which is in this  cup, the precious Blood of thy Christ.

Still bowing, the deacon points to both the diskos and chalice with his orarion, saying:

Deacon: Amen. Bless both, master.

The priest signs the bread and cup.

Priest: Changing  them by thy Holy Spirit.

Deacon: (spoken, but so that the people can hear) Amen! Amen! Amen!

The priest, deacon, servers, and people, all make a full prostration. On Sundays, Great Feasts, and during the Paschal season, they make a reverence instead."

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 10:54:00 AM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2010, 12:24:37 PM »

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.

Can you point me in the direction as to where I might find the rubrics that state the people can replace the Deacon for the scenario of which you speak?

Furthermore, we always have a Deacon--yet the people always say it.  Huh
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2010, 02:53:39 PM »

My point is that while it would be very easy to have the Priest replace the Deacon in the litanies, etc.., it would be impossible to do so in this instance. What is happening here is that the Epiclesis needs not only the Priest's prayers and actions but also the affirmation of his prayers and actions by the people--in this instance the Deacon acting for the people. In other practices, the lay people says the Amens (with or without the deacon). The important principle to remember is that the Liturgy is the action of the entire Laos, not merely the action of the clergy.

Can you point me in the direction as to where I might find the rubrics that state the people can replace the Deacon for the scenario of which you speak?

Furthermore, we always have a Deacon--yet the people always say it.  Huh

Good for them!  angel

As for rubrics, as far as I could find, "official" written rubrics that include the people saying the "amens" are found in the Liturgy of Saint James. On the other hand, it seems to me (and please forgive me for saying this) that you are elevating "rubrics" to a level that it does not need to go. The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

"Instructions for a priest explaining what he had to do during a liturgical service were also rubricated in missals and the other forms of service book, leaving the sections to be spoken aloud in black.[3] From this, rubric has a second meaning of an instruction in a text, regardless of how it is written or printed. This is in fact the oldest recorded meaning in English, found in 1375.[4] Less formally, rubrics may refer to any liturgical action customarily performed over the course of a service, whether or not they are actually written down."

So, rubrics really are what churches customarily do. Think of it this way: In the United States, most Orthodox Christians did not commune frequently, nor did they use the Holy Mystery of Reconciliation, until relatively recently. So the practice changed--I believe for the better. But, from another POV it is a change, and some folks (like you) are truly uncomfortable with change, some reflectively so. I understand that and I merely ask that you delve beneath the surface and ask not whether a rubric has been disregarded but whether the "new" practice is salutary to the Body.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2010, 12:58:45 PM »

Good for them! 

If you say so.

As for rubrics, as far as I could find, "official" written rubrics that include the people saying the "amens" are found in the Liturgy of Saint James. 

Can you show me? And if that is true, were they changed after that?

On the other hand, it seems to me (and please forgive me for saying this) that you are elevating "rubrics" to a level that it does not need to go.


I am simply trying to figure out why the pew books tell us that the "deacon" is suppose to say this (at my Church it actually says that the "priest" says it)---but then during the Liturgy, the people say it.  Huh

The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

I do not put much stock in Wikipedia. Got anything else?

But, from another POV it is a change, and some folks (like you) are truly uncomfortable with change, some reflectively so.

Wrong. I will tell you what I am uncomfortable with:  The ROCOR/Russian, Serbian, some Romanian, some OCA, most Ukrainian, some Greek, etc….will tell me that the people do not respond with the “Amens”.  And then the Antiochians, some OCA, some Romanians, etc….will tell me that it is okay.  But no one can give a clear explanation for why or why not.

I understand that and I merely ask that you delve beneath the surface and ask not whether a rubric has been disregarded but whether the "new" practice is salutary to the Body.
I am delving my friend—and no one seems to be able to answer it.


Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2010, 01:06:57 PM »


The following is an explanation of the word (Wikipedia):

I do not put much stock in Wikipedia. Got anything else?

Would the two sources that Wikipedia actually quotes do: the OED (unfortunately not on the internet for free) and the (old) Catholic Encyclopedia?  Note that footnote numbers in SecondChance's initial quotation of the Wikipedia article.  If one were to go to the original article on Wikipedia for "rubrics," one would easily find the links to those sources.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 01:07:11 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2010, 02:08:58 PM »

Epiklesis of Saint James' Divine Liturgy (Source Wikipedia--sorry!):

In the Liturgy of Saint James, according to the form in which it is celebrated on the island of Zakinthos, Greece, the anaphora is as follows:

    Priest (aloud): Thy people and Thy Church entreat Thee. (thrice)

    People: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. (thrice)

    The Priest, in a low voice: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with Thy great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, Thine all-holy Spirit, (bowing) the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with Thee, God and Father, and Tine only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by Thy New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon Thy holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Thy same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth,

    (aloud): that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, He may sanctify this bread and make it the holy Body of Christ,

    People: Amen.

    Priest: and this Cup (chalice) the precious Blood of Christ,

    People: Amen.

    The Priest signs the holy Gifts and says in a low voice: that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of Thy holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou dids found on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age."
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2010, 02:39:33 PM »

Epiklesis of Saint James' Divine Liturgy (Source Wikipedia--sorry!):

1.   St James Liturgy is largely out of use.
2.   I believe the rubrics may have been changed since then.
3.   I do not trust wikipedia. Sorry.


In the Liturgy of Saint James, according to the form in which it is celebrated on the island of Zakinthos, Greece, the anaphora is as follows:

You seem to have found an island in Greece which still celebrates the Liturgy of St James (once per year if I am correct) with rubrics that indicate the people’s response to the Amen. Is this uniform for all places which may still celebrate the Liturgy of St James?  Do you have anything regarding the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom or St Basil the Great? Do you have any more such examples other than the island of Zakinthos?
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2010, 02:50:51 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,501



« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2010, 03:07:58 PM »

2.   I believe the rubrics may have been changed since then.
Exactly. Rubrics develop and change.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2010, 03:20:38 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2010, 03:21:14 PM »

Rubrics develop and change.

Indeed.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2010, 03:26:52 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2010, 03:45:50 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley

Amen my brother in Christ!  I can deal with some variations in the rubrics.

But I surely hope they don't decide to start imposing gender neutral language like some of the Eastern Catholics--that was disturbing.




Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2010, 05:26:49 PM »

Welcome to Orthodoxy! Wink  As I wrote, from my own reading, it's pretty much always been like that, the little things that differ from local church to local church.  Embrace it and know that, in the end, Jesus is present.  That's all we, as laity, really need concern ourselves with.  Those who may or may not be fiddling with the rubrics will have to answer for what they do someday, not those of us who may or may not be victims of such liturgical abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on all of us during Great Lent. Smiley

Amen my brother in Christ!  I can deal with some variations in the rubrics.

But I surely hope they don't decide to start imposing gender neutral language like some of the Eastern Catholics--that was disturbing.


Amen and amen!  Smiley

On the gender neutral language, I am with you brother!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2010, 05:44:28 PM »

I'll modify the above rendition of St. Iakovos' anaphora in accordance with the directions as in the Liturgy book published by the Apostolic Ministry of the Church of Greece:

{Directions in a preceding prayer indicate that all the long prayers should be read "mystically."}

Priest (aloud and melodically): Thy people and Thy Church entreat Thee.
People: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. (thrice)

The Priest: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with Thy great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, Thine all-holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with Thee, God and Father, and Tine only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by Thy New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon Thy holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Thy same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth, that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, He may sanctify this bread and make it the holy Body of Christ,

    Deacon: Amen.

    Priest: and this Cup the precious Blood of Christ,

    Deacon: Amen.

    Priest (standing, and signing each of the holy Gifts {with the sign of the Cross - Fr. G}): that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life.

    Deacon: Amen.

For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of Thy holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Thou dids found on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age."

    Deacon: Amen.

{Then it continues with a prayer of commemoration, not unlike (but not replacing) the portion of St. John's anaphora that commemorates "forefathers, fathers...," with the people singing over the prayer "Remember Lord our God."  Afterward, he exclaims "Especially for our Most Holy..." and then continues.}
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 05:55:11 PM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2010, 06:50:21 PM »

The Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St. James as translated by Archimandrite Ephrem Lash:

The Priest, in a low voice: Have mercy on us, Lord God, the Father, the Almighty. Have mercy on us, God our Saviour. Have mercy on us, O God, in accordance with your great mercy, and send forth upon these holy gifts, here set forth, your all-holy Spirit, (bowing) the Lord and giver of life, enthroned with you, God and Father, and your only-begotten Son, co-reigning, consubstantial and co-eternal, who spoke by the Law and the Prophets and by your New Covenant, who came down in the form of a dove upon our Lord Jesus Christ in the river Jordan, and rested upon him, who came down upon your holy Apostles in the form of fiery tongues in the upper room of holy and glorious Sion on the day of Pentecost. (Standing up) Your same all-holy Spirit, Lord, send down on us and on these gifts here set forth,

(aloud): that having come by his holy, good and glorious presence, he may sanctify this bread and make it the holy body of Christ,

People: Amen.

Priest: and this Cup the precious blood of Christ,

People: Amen.

The Priest signs the holy Gifts and says in a low voice: that they may become for all those who partake of them for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life. For sanctification of souls and bodies. For a fruitful harvest of good works. For the strengthening of your holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which you founded on the rock of the faith, so that the gates of Hell might not prevail against it, delivering it from every heresy and from the scandals caused by those who work iniquity, and from the enemies who arise and attack it, until the consummation of the age.

The clergy alone answer: Amen.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-james.htm

Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,941


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2010, 07:12:32 PM »

Mickey,

I'm curious.  Why is this such an important issue for you at this time? 

Honestly, the most proper person to ask would be a) your priest and then b) your bishop.  Orthodox practice has always varied somewhat from place to place and jurisdiction to jurisdiction. 

I am a stubborn sinner who likes to know why the Liturgy differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I also like to know if rubrics are being ignored or twisted a bit.  I first saw this change (people saying the Amens) when I was a part of the Byzantine Catholic Church.  Now I am seeing it in the Orthodox Church. It is confusing to me. I am getting comflicting information.  One jurisdiction says it is not proper--the other says no big deal.  But I have already resolved my dilemma.  I will say the Jesus Prayer quietly to myself during this time. Thanks for your help.

In the 2006 Byzantine Catholic Liturgicon the rubrics still assign the deacon the Amens at the Epiclesis.  That was a parish depature if it was being done.

But as to whether having the people say the Amens at the Epiclesis is proper we have to ask is why did the response move from the people to the deacon in the first place?  The obvoius answer is when the Anaphora went quiet the deacon had to respond because the people couldn't hear the Epilcesis to respond to it.  Also to fill that silence settings of "We praise you, we bless you.. " got longer and longer.

So if the Anaphora is going to be aloud why shouldn't the Amens be returned to the people?  The question then becomes who has the right to retun the Amens to the people,  the parish priest, the diocesan bishop, the metropolitan, the patriarch, the Synod, an Ecumenical Council?  I would say the diocesan bishop.

Fr. Deacon Lance 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2010, 09:37:26 AM »

In the 2006 Byzantine Catholic Liturgicon the rubrics still assign the deacon the Amens at the Epiclesis.  That was a parish depature if it was being done.

Yes. That's when it first began to bother me a bit.

The obvoius answer is when the Anaphora went quiet the deacon had to respond because the people couldn't hear the Epilcesis to respond to it.  Also to fill that silence settings of "We praise you, we bless you.. " got longer and longer.

Are you sure about this? Where do you find your information?

So if the Anaphora is going to be aloud why shouldn't the Amens be returned to the people?  

Well....I am also not a fan of the prayers being said aloud when it says "quietly" (mystically).  Wink
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 09:39:08 AM by Mickey » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,869



« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2010, 10:57:40 AM »

^
Friend, you give the impression of emphasizing form at the expense of substance. Enough with this rubrics business!

Forgive me for being exasperated with you.

Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2010, 11:14:18 AM »

The Barberini says nothing of people or deacons saying the "Amen."  It says that the priest says the prayer "mystically," and has the Amen following each part, but without a break between the prayer and the "Amen" to indicate who says it.

(Interestingly, there are only two blessings in the Epiclesis in Barberini: blessing over the bread, and over the cup, but no third blessing with a triple "Amen."  This makes sense, considering the third blessing, "Changing them by Your Holy Spirit," that we have/use now is actually redundant, since the first blessing is preceded by "send Your Holy Spirit down on us and on these gifts presented...")
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:14:31 AM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2010, 11:24:35 AM »

Friend, you give the impression of emphasizing form at the expense of substance. Enough with this rubrics business!

Forgive me for being exasperated with you.

If I disturb you, you are free to remove yourself from this thread.  I am Orthodox. I am interested in substance and form. Sometimes I need proper form to get me to the substance.

I am sorry that I exasperate you.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »

The Barberini says nothing of people or deacons saying the "Amen."  It says that the priest says the prayer "mystically," and has the Amen following each part, but without a break between the prayer and the "Amen" to indicate who says it.

(Interestingly, there are only two blessings in the Epiclesis in Barberini: blessing over the bread, and over the cup, but no third blessing with a triple "Amen."  This makes sense, considering the third blessing, "Changing them by Your Holy Spirit," that we have/use now is actually redundant, since the first blessing is preceded by "send Your Holy Spirit down on us and on these gifts presented...")

Very interesting. Thank you Father!  Smiley
Logged
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2010, 11:29:57 AM »

I've heard the people say "Amen" to the epiklesis only here in America, at an OCA church and at an Antiochian one. Never back home, never in a Greek church.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:30:30 AM by augustin717 » Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2010, 11:38:56 AM »

I believe that as of 2004, it is the standard practice of the Church of Greece to say the Epiklesis aloud with the people responding Amen.   

Fr. George is right, Barbarini has the following form:

...and make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ
Amen
and that which is in the Cup the precious Blood of Your Christ, changing them by Your Holy Spirit
Amen

There is no mention of who says the Amen.   The Liturgy of St. James is the only consistant form we have, in which, both ancient and modern, the people say the Amen of the Epiklesis. 
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2010, 11:46:01 AM »

I've heard the people say "Amen" to the epiklesis only here in America, at an OCA church and at an Antiochian one. Never back home, never in a Greek church.

It depends on what Greek Church you attend.  Both the one I grew up at and the one I serve currently say the epiclesis aloud with the people responding with the "Amen."  At the Theological school, it was said "mystically," with only those in the altar responding (deacons if there were any, other clergy, etc.).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2010, 04:53:30 PM »

It depends on what Greek Church you attend.  Both the one I grew up at and the one I serve currently say the epiclesis aloud with the people responding with the "Amen."  At the Theological school, it was said "mystically," with only those in the altar responding (deacons if there were any, other clergy, etc.).

I like the mystical option.  Grin
Logged
Tags: royal doors epiclesis anaphora 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.284 seconds with 119 queries.