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Author Topic: Hell, Hades, Prayer for Dead, State of those in Christ?  (Read 1992 times) Average Rating: 0
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ignatius
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« on: January 26, 2010, 10:29:21 AM »

Grace and Peace,

As the Orthodox appear to teach it, I understand that Hell and Hades are two different places or states. Most Orthodox seem to say that Orthodox pray for those who are in Hades and have 'hope' that they may be freed from that state?

I understand that there is a 'state' of those in Christ who have not stood in front of the dread Judgment Seat of Christ yet and so there is 'time' to pray for them. Is this correct?

My mother, who was Catholic, died of lung cancer about 20 years ago. I don't know what kind of 'state' she was in at the time of her death but I know she fell away from the Catholic Church after Vatican II like so many others. So I guess my question is where is she? Should and can we pray for her? I was under the impression that Orthodox Christians "can't" pray for individuals outside the Orthodox Church? Is this true?

Generally, what is taught as the 'current' state of individuals prior to the Judgment?
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 10:55:27 AM »

You must pray for her it is your duty!! As an Orthodox Christian you can and should pray for non-orthodox in your private prayers. However, praying for non-orthodox within the liturgical rites of the Church services is not allowed.

As far as where your late mother now resides is only knowable by God himself; here is the Decision of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad on this topic:

Quote
In the deliberations on life after death one must in general keep in mind that it is not pleased the Lord to reveal to us very much aside from the fact that the degree of a soul's blessedness depends on how much a man's life on the earth has been truly Christian, and the degree of a man's posthumous suffering depends upon the degree of sinfulness. To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us is not beneficial to our salvation, and all disputes in this domain are now especially detrimental, the more so when they become the object of the discussion of people who have not been fully established in the Faith. Acrid polemic apart from the spirit of mutual love turns such an exchange of opinions from a deliberation into an argument about words. The positive preaching of truths of the Church may be profitable, but not disputes in an area which is not subject to our investigation, but which evokes in the unprepared reader false notions on questions of importance to our salvation.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:56:25 AM by Sinner Servant » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 11:41:40 AM »

You must pray for her it is your duty!! As an Orthodox Christian you can and should pray for non-orthodox in your private prayers. However, praying for non-orthodox within the liturgical rites of the Church services is not allowed.

As far as where your late mother now resides is only knowable by God himself; here is the Decision of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad on this topic:

Quote
In the deliberations on life after death one must in general keep in mind that it is not pleased the Lord to reveal to us very much aside from the fact that the degree of a soul's blessedness depends on how much a man's life on the earth has been truly Christian, and the degree of a man's posthumous suffering depends upon the degree of sinfulness. To add conjectures to the little that the Lord has been pleased to reveal to us is not beneficial to our salvation, and all disputes in this domain are now especially detrimental, the more so when they become the object of the discussion of people who have not been fully established in the Faith. Acrid polemic apart from the spirit of mutual love turns such an exchange of opinions from a deliberation into an argument about words. The positive preaching of truths of the Church may be profitable, but not disputes in an area which is not subject to our investigation, but which evokes in the unprepared reader false notions on questions of importance to our salvation.

Grace and Peace,

This was very helpful. Thank you.
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 02:09:56 PM »

Sacred scripture tells us:


"It is a holy and pious thing that atonement
be made for the dead, that they might be delivered
from their sin."

~ 2 Macc 12:46

I'd like to comment, for those who don't know the context.

What had happened was that many of the dead Jewish soldiers were found to have small idols in their clothing. They had been worshipping idols and the text says that this idolatry is the reason God allowed them to be slain in battle.

So the surviving soldiers began to offer profound prayers that this dreadful sin would be forgiven and Judas Maccabeus decided to send a large quantity of silver to the Jerusalem temple for prayers for the forgivness of these slain idolators.

The whole incident in holy Scripture substantiates not just prayers for the dead but the scripturally based hope and belief that sin, even very serious sin (mortal sin if you will), may be forgiven by God after death.

2 Maccabees 12: 39-46
King James Version
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Kjv2Mac.html
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 02:15:12 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 02:13:26 PM »

Certainly the common teaching of the Orthodox is that even the most serious sin may be forgiven after death. The scriptural foundation for this is 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46 where prayer and almsgiving by the living obtained trhe forgiveness of mortal sin for the dead.

Then we may look at the words of one of Russia's current respected theologians Archbishop Hilarion...

Praying for those in hell...

I was reading an article recently by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev called "Orthodox Worship as a School of Theology", and I came across the following:-

Bishop Hilarion: "Several years ago I came across a short article in a journal of the Coptic Church where it stated that this Church had decided to remove prayers for those held in hell from its service books, since these prayers “contradict Orthodox teaching”. Puzzled by this article, I decided to ask a representative of the Coptic Church about the reasons for this move. Recently I had the possibility to do so, and a Coptic Metropolitan replied that the decision was made by his Synod because, according their official doctrine, no prayers can help those in hell.

"I told the metropolitan that in the liturgical practice of the Russian Orthodox Church and other local Orthodox Churches there are prayers for those held in hell, and that we believe in their saving power. This surprised the Metropolitan, and he promised to study this question in more detail."

Here is the original article ...

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/12/1.aspx
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Today (26 January) is the commemoration of St. Conan of Iona
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 02:26:23 PM »

Father,

Are there occupants in Gehenna now? Is Hell occupied?
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 02:37:17 PM »

Father,

Are there occupants in Gehenna now? Is Hell occupied?

I would say Yes.  The devil and the demons are there, as well as Arius (according to the Church services.)   Others will probably be there as well.   

You can find various and contradictory schemata of the afterlife.  It varies from country to country and from Father to Father and theologian to theologian.  Some of it is ingeniously complicated and some of it is basic.   There is no way you can put your finger on one schema or the other and say:  *This* is the Orthodox teaching.  The best you can do is hold the contradictory systems in your head without prefering one over the other and say, "well, one of them may approximate the reality of the afterlife or none of them may."

For a view of the agnosticism and sober reticence of the Orthodox regarding the afterlife,  please see this previous message in the thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg294081.html#msg294081

The statement from the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church Abroad (quoted above by Sinner Servant) is one of the most sober and intelligent I have encountered.   It's what I always come back to myself.
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 04:45:57 PM »

Father,

Are there individuals in Hades, Limbus, Sheol, Now? Waiting?

Quote 1:   The teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo:
 
 
"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death
 and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest
or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth."
Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 04:48:14 PM by ignatius » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 05:09:28 PM »

Father,

Are there individuals in Hades, Limbus, Sheol, Now? Waiting?

We would need to define what these words mean  ... and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

So now, being of ancient years and realising that we really cannot "see through the glass darkly" as Saint Paul says, I would say we are better advised to hold to the three quotes referenced in that message.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg294081.html#msg294081

Anything above and beyond that is speculative.


Quote
Quote 1:   The teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo:
 
 
"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death
 and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest
or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth."
Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 05:22:07 PM »

Father,

Are there individuals in Hades, Limbus, Sheol, Now? Waiting?

We would need to define what these words mean  ... and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

So now, being of ancient years and realising that we really cannot "see through the glass darkly" as Saint Paul says, I would say we are better advised to hold to the three quotes referenced in that message.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg294081.html#msg294081

Anything above and beyond that is speculative.


Quote
Quote 1:   The teaching of Saint Augustine of Hippo:
 
 
"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death
 and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest
or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth."
Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

I think that is sound advice. Thanks Father.

My daughter once asked me if once in Hell people could get out. I didn't know what to say to her because I understood that a few, I admit, Fathers have spoken of a 'hope' of freedom from such eternal torments so I told her that 'we' put ourselves into such torments, not God, and if we put ourselves into such a state perhaps it is possible to free ourselves from such a state. We can only hope for those we find themselves separated from God and their loved ones in the hereafter.

What would you have said to a seven year girl?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 05:32:23 PM by ignatius » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 05:25:21 PM »

You must pray for her it is your duty!! As an Orthodox Christian you can and should pray for non-orthodox in your private prayers. However, praying for non-orthodox within the liturgical rites of the Church services is not allowed.

This might depend on the jurisdiction. I'm Antiochian, and we pray for non-Orthodox and Orthodox both when offering the Gifts. There is a distinction: "...servants departed this life" vs. "Orthodox servants departed this life". We have memorial services after the Divine Liturgy for non-Orthodox as well.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 05:25:38 PM by Rowan » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 05:27:01 PM »

Quote
and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

Where did you get a brush that paints so broadly? I know you can't get one at Lowes or Home Depot...
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 05:27:29 PM »

Oh, and of course there is the example of St. Xenia of St. Petersburg, who prayed her husbands soul into heaven.

But she's very holy.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 05:29:52 PM »

Quote
and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

Where did you get a brush that paints so broadly? I know you can't get one at Lowes or Home Depot...
'
Indeed.

I was taught that no one is in Hades after Jesus broke the bonds at His Resurrection. I wasn't aware of a "squabbling" about Hades at least...
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Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 05:35:27 PM »

Quote
praying for non-orthodox within the liturgical rites of the Church services is not allowed

Where did you get this idea?  We pray for catechumens in the Liturgy, who are not yet in the Church.  St. John Maximovitch sent a letter of instruction to priests as to how to do a memorial litiya for one who was not Orthodox.  In the Liturgy we pray "for the whole world."  In the Liturgy of St. Basil we pray for those who are lapsed that God may return them back to the fold of God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. 
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 05:36:22 PM »


'
Indeed.

I was taught that no one is in Hades after Jesus broke the bonds at His Resurrection. I wasn't aware of a "squabbling" about Hades at least...

I was under the impression that Orthodox believe there is no one in Gehenna 'yet'... so where are they?
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 05:47:25 PM »


'
Indeed.

I was taught that no one is in Hades after Jesus broke the bonds at His Resurrection. I wasn't aware of a "squabbling" about Hades at least...

I was under the impression that Orthodox believe there is no one in Gehenna 'yet'... so where are they?

I was taught that they are receiving a foretaste of either reward or punishment in a "middle-state" where our prayers can be effectual...I don't have an eloquent word for it Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 06:02:16 PM »

I have been taught similarly to Rowan: that Eternal Hell proper does not yet exist, or if it does, nobody is in it. Nobody will be in Hell until the final judgment. Most people will be in Hades, experiencing a foretaste of the eternity they chose for themselves, and our prayers for them is somehow beneficial. The only people in Heaven presently are the Saints.
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 06:05:24 PM »

Btw, my last post was partly in jest. I wanted to make a point, but I meant it to be made light-heartedly. I forgot to put an emoticon indicating that. And humor doesn't come across well on the internet often times anyway.
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 06:10:55 PM »

Quote
praying for non-orthodox within the liturgical rites of the Church services is not allowed

Where did you get this idea?  We pray for catechumens in the Liturgy, who are not yet in the Church.  St. John Maximovitch sent a letter of instruction to priests as to how to do a memorial litiya for one who was not Orthodox.  In the Liturgy we pray "for the whole world."  In the Liturgy of St. Basil we pray for those who are lapsed that God may return them back to the fold of God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  

In the Divine Liturgy we indeed pray for all of humanity in the litanies; I was speaking of actually commemerating non-orthodox by name during the Divine Liturgy (the Celebration of Proskomedia) and memorial services. I am quite sure there may be some pastoral application to this.

For more on this topic see:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=24941.0
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 06:22:07 PM by Sinner Servant » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 06:46:11 PM »

Quote
and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

Where did you get a brush that paints so broadly? I know you can't get one at Lowes or Home Depot...

The brush is sold under the name of "broad experience."   laugh
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 06:48:17 PM »

Quote
and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

Where did you get a brush that paints so broadly? I know you can't get one at Lowes or Home Depot...
'
Indeed.

I was taught that no one is in Hades after Jesus broke the bonds at His Resurrection. I wasn't aware of a "squabbling" about Hades at least...

Judas?   Left in Hades or brought forth with all the others?
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 06:57:47 PM »

Quote
and we cannot do that because the modern Orthodox (especially the post-Seraphim Rose generation in the US) will spend hours squabbling on the definitions.

Where did you get a brush that paints so broadly? I know you can't get one at Lowes or Home Depot...

Will anybody help us with the definitions...

Hell

Hades

Gehenna

Sheol

Lake of Fire

Tartarus

.....?
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 07:53:04 PM »

where is she?
In God's Hands.

Should and can we pray for her?
Of course we can and should pray for her.

I was under the impression that Orthodox Christians "can't" pray for individuals outside the Orthodox Church? Is this true?
Stuff and nonsense. What we technically cannot do is commemorate those outside of the Church in the Liturgy, and the reason for this is more out of respect for the person than anything else. When an Eastern Orthodox Priest commemorates someone in the Liturgy, he cuts a small piece of bread from the Prosforo (Host) in their memory which will be added to the Chalice, in effect claiming the person as "one of our own" in the Orthodox Church. This could easily be construed as something similar to the Mormons "Baptising for the dead" and claiming among their number those who never had any connection to the Mormons. So in the public prayer of the Divine Liturgy, we don't commemorate those who did not want us to commemorate them during their life. But in private prayer, we pray for all. There are also public prayers in which we pray generally for all who are reposed, Orthodox and Non-Orthodox.


Pray this prayer for your mother:

O God of spirits and of all flesh,
Who hast trampled down death and overthrown the devil
and given life to Thy world,
do Thou Thyself, O Lord, give rest to the souls of thy servant (Name) who has fallen asleep,
in a place of light, a place of green pasture, a place of repose,
whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing are fled away.
Pardon every sin committed by them in word, deed, or thought,
in that Thou art a good God, the Lover of mankind;
for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not,
for Thou alone art without sin.
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness,
and Thou and Thou alone art the God of Mercy and Compassion, and love for mankind,
and unto Thee do we send up glory:
to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:53:32 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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