Author Topic: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?  (Read 11007 times)

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Offline Father H

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2009, 01:06:16 PM »
Ouch. I don't think my ignorance is crass...
Well, here's your chance to prove yourself. ;)

Well, I never said I wasn't ignorant, I just feel my ignorance is not crass, indeed their is a refined elegance to my ignorance, in my opinion.

I like your sense of humor.   Makes threads easier to read through.   Welcome!

Offline Mickey

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2009, 09:41:24 AM »
1950s Catholicism is an illusion.
Really? Which era of Catholicism is reality?

Offline Mickey

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2009, 10:00:45 AM »
I came across a little pamphlet titled, "Holy Communion Prayers".  It is from the St Josephat's Missionary Society.  It states that the contents of the pamphlet contain a selection of devotional prayers compiled from approved sources.

Here is one of the prayers: (emphasis mine)

Pray For The Souls In Purgatory

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have pity on them.  Be not severe in Your Judgements, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.

 
Now we see here that purgatory is being described as a place where the poor souls are captive and in need of pity.  It is also a judgement of sorts--consisting of devouring flames.

I often hear from Roman Catholics that purgatory is not a place--does not involve judgement because the souls are headed for paradise---and does not involve flames.
 ???
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 10:01:54 AM by Mickey »

Offline Papist

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2009, 06:23:03 PM »
I came across a little pamphlet titled, "Holy Communion Prayers".  It is from the St Josephat's Missionary Society.  It states that the contents of the pamphlet contain a selection of devotional prayers compiled from approved sources.

Here is one of the prayers: (emphasis mine)

Pray For The Souls In Purgatory

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have pity on them.  Be not severe in Your Judgements, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.

 
Now we see here that purgatory is being described as a place where the poor souls are captive and in need of pity.  It is also a judgement of sorts--consisting of devouring flames.

I often hear from Roman Catholics that purgatory is not a place--does not involve judgement because the souls are headed for paradise---and does not involve flames.
 ???
What is hell? I have heard many Orthodox describe it as a different way of experiencing the Energies of God but the bible uses vivid imagery to describe it as a place where people are litterally burned in flames.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2009, 06:35:15 PM »
I came across a little pamphlet titled, "Holy Communion Prayers".  It is from the St Josephat's Missionary Society.  It states that the contents of the pamphlet contain a selection of devotional prayers compiled from approved sources.

Here is one of the prayers: (emphasis mine)

Pray For The Souls In Purgatory

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have pity on them.  Be not severe in Your Judgements, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.

 
Now we see here that purgatory is being described as a place where the poor souls are captive and in need of pity.  It is also a judgement of sorts--consisting of devouring flames.

I often hear from Roman Catholics that purgatory is not a place--does not involve judgement because the souls are headed for paradise---and does not involve flames.
 ???
What is hell? I have heard many Orthodox describe it as a different way of experiencing the Energies of God but the bible uses vivid imagery to describe it as a place where people are litterally burned in flames.
I think you may be reading the Bible too literally. You really think the "flames" are physical flames, like the kind the ravaged Los Angeles a few weeks ago?
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2009, 06:40:25 PM »
I came across a little pamphlet titled, "Holy Communion Prayers".  It is from the St Josephat's Missionary Society.  It states that the contents of the pamphlet contain a selection of devotional prayers compiled from approved sources.

Here is one of the prayers: (emphasis mine)

Pray For The Souls In Purgatory

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have pity on them.  Be not severe in Your Judgements, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.

 
Now we see here that purgatory is being described as a place where the poor souls are captive and in need of pity.  It is also a judgement of sorts--consisting of devouring flames.

I often hear from Roman Catholics that purgatory is not a place--does not involve judgement because the souls are headed for paradise---and does not involve flames.
 ???
What is hell? I have heard many Orthodox describe it as a different way of experiencing the Energies of God but the bible uses vivid imagery to describe it as a place where people are litterally burned in flames.
I think you may be reading the Bible too literally. You really think the "flames" are physical flames, like the kind the ravaged Los Angeles a few weeks ago?
No. I don't think that they are physical flames. However, if one can accept that the literal descriptions of hell as physical planes is only metaphor, then should be able to accept that the descriptions of purgatory might also be metaphor.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2009, 07:28:23 PM »

The Pope decided last year that it was the doctrine of "Limbo", the place where the unbaptized who have lived a righteous life go, that does not exist.  Purgatory is still a core teaching in Catholicism.

He didn't decide that it doesn't exist. He just said it was theologoumenon rather than dogma. That means it may very well still exist in RC teaching.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2009, 07:31:00 PM »

The Pope decided last year that it was the doctrine of "Limbo", the place where the unbaptized who have lived a righteous life go, that does not exist.  Purgatory is still a core teaching in Catholicism.

He didn't decide that it doesn't exist. He just said it was theologoumenon rather than dogma. That means it may very well still exist in RC teaching.
exactly.
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Offline realfineone

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2011, 12:43:31 AM »
Well, it is kinda funny that a Nazi would compare purgatory to a concentration camp.

"Purgatory is not some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e. capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints… Encounter with the Lord is this transformation.  It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy."
[/quote]

Offline J Michael

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2011, 02:29:22 PM »
Well, it is kinda funny that a Nazi would compare purgatory to a concentration camp.

Wow!  Now, that was *really* uncalled-for!  I think you may be mistaking someone who, as a youth, was forced to participate in the Nazi youth movement---just like his peers, for a true member of the Nazi party and willing participant in the Holocaust.  To characterize Pope Benedict as a Nazi not only detracts from intelligent dialog, quite possibly derails the thread (which seems to have come to a halt all by itself anyway),  but also amounts to character assassination, in my humble opinion.  And this during Great Lent!  Wow!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:31:33 PM by J Michael »
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2011, 02:49:19 PM »
Well, it is kinda funny that a Nazi would compare purgatory to a concentration camp.

Umm...Godwin's Law?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2011, 02:54:51 PM »
Well, it is kinda funny that a Nazi would compare purgatory to a concentration camp.

Umm...Godwin's Law?

 ??? ??? ???
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2011, 03:44:55 PM »
Well, it is kinda funny that a Nazi would compare purgatory to a concentration camp.

Umm...Godwin's Law?

 ??? ??? ???
Godwin's Law is one man's observation that as an Internet discussion grows in length, the odds that one will make an absurd connection to Hitler or the Nazi's approaches 1--IOW, it's inevitable.

In this case, the reference to the Nazis is most likely an out-of-context reference to the fact that Pope Benedict was a member of the Hitler Youth back when he was a young lad. What realfineone failed to mention is that the young Joseph Ratzinger was conscripted by law into the movement but never wanted to be there and rarely attended meetings.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 03:48:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2011, 09:39:11 PM »
I doubt realfineone will bother, but if he/she consults the early parts of this book



he/she will see Joseph Ratzinger discuss in detail his childhood and upbringing and experience under the Third Reich. It is quite edifying and a very revealing look at how an anti-Nazi Catholic family survived in Germany's hinterlands during the 1930s and 1940s.

Offline ignatius

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2011, 10:54:28 PM »
Grace and Peace,

Instead of Orthodox Brothers and Sisters being enraged by the Western Patriarch steering the Western Church toward a more Orthodox View of Faith, why wouldn't they rejoice in God who calls 'all' to repentance and return to the Truth?  :-[
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Father H

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Re: Has Pope Benedict Really Written Off Purgatory?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2011, 03:52:04 PM »
Grace and Peace,Instead of Orthodox Brothers and Sisters being enraged by the Western Patriarch steering the Western Church toward a more Orthodox View of Faith, why wouldn't they rejoice in God who calls 'all' to repentance and return to the Truth?  :-[   

I think most are glad to see it and have no problem with that.  But in some things closer and in some things farther away.  The patriarchate basilicas became "papal" basilicas under this pope, to make it clear that no longer is St. Peter's Constantinople's metochion, etc.  Nor is he any longer patriarch of the west.   Of course, this move on both fronts, transferring the pentarchy's metochion basilicas in Rome to strictly papal usage together with removing reference to the patriarchates brings us further away from each other.