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Author Topic: Info on Polish Orthodox persecution?  (Read 2557 times) Average Rating: 0
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Robb
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« on: January 23, 2010, 06:09:45 PM »

Could someone direct me to a good source of information on the persecution of Orthodox Christians and Greek Catholics by the Polish state during the interwar years (1919-39)?

I have heard that the Poles conducted a massive campaign of Polanization which even extended to the Greek Catholics Ukrainian and Carpatho-Russian peoples.  The state tried to coerce all ethnic religious minorities to embrace Polish culture and RC religion. 
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2010, 06:40:38 PM »

For a start: http://www.lublin.cerkiew.pl/page.php?id=238

Robb: can you read Polish?
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 05:47:29 PM »

Sadly, I don't read Polish.  However I am interested in this disturbing period of Orthodox and Eastern Catholic history.

Why did a supposed "Christian state" like Poland persecute not only Orthodox(which would have been understandable considering that the Poles where all heavily cultural Catholics), but the Greek Catholics being suppressed makes no sense to me.

Is this because Poles traditionally hate all Ukrainians/Russians and consider them Asiatic barbarians?
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 05:58:52 PM »

Is this because Poles traditionally hate all Ukrainians/Russians and consider them Asiatic barbarians?
In brief - yes.

Polish authorities were also afraid of Ukrainian nationalistic movement.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:00:06 PM by mike » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 06:12:29 PM »

Why did a supposed "Christian state" like Poland persecute not only Orthodox(which would have been understandable considering that the Poles where all heavily cultural Catholics), but the Greek Catholics being suppressed makes no sense to me.

As far as I know, no Greek Catholic churches were destroyed in 1938 - only Orthodox ones. Greek Catholicism was actually supported by the Polish state during the interwar period (it was then when the so-called Neo-Union was created). Maybe you are confusing the interwar period with the communist period, during which the Greek Catholic Church in Poland was formally dissolved.

Is this because Poles traditionally hate all Ukrainians/Russians and consider them Asiatic barbarians?

Contemporary lack of sympathy for East Slavs among the Polish people is an effect of associating them with the Tsarist regime, the massacres of Poles in Volhynia, communism, and Lukashenko's and Putin's politics.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:18:45 PM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2010, 06:44:33 PM »

The long story of mutual relation between Poles and Rusyns is hard to be understood by Our Self so probably by non-Slavs it's impossible.
The period between I and II World War was very difficult for Polish State and after partitions of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth all minorities were perceived as a enemies. Durung the Russian occupation of Central and Eastern part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth the Union of Church was eliminated and even Catholics were forced to converted to Orthodoxy.
When we regainted independence russian hurches (Cerkiew) were considered as a sign of oppresion. Why only in Warsaw there were destroyed almost all orthodox churches (up to this day there are only two).
Before the Partition there was such whichcan be called as "polish orthodoxy" after 123 years Ortohodxy means almost the same as a Russian or Enemy. I see it like that, but maybe I'm wrong Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2010, 08:56:46 PM »

Правословност Или Смрт...
Нема Ништа Само то ....... Grin

Can the dislikes between Polish Catholic ,Eastern Catholics and the  Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox be compared to the dislikes between Serbs and Croatians.......
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 02:30:44 AM »


Much of what has been written here is certainly true in regards to Polish-Ukrainian relations.  I agree with  Michał's concise summary of Polish lack of sympathy for the Eastern Slavs.  My grandfather for instance, lost most of his family to Ukrainians during the war and he has never forgiven them.  That being said, it cannot be denied that at the time, there was a noticeable 'cultural arrogance' if you will of the Poles (and the state) towards the Ukrainians, and no understanding or willingness to understand Ukrainian aspirations of nationhood which would at times manifest themselves in so-called 'pacifications'.  The Catholic Church in Poland cannot escape blame either, as it was used as an assimilating tool of Polishness upon an unwilling population.

In brief, in 1922 there was a wave of seizures of Orthodox Churches and property that was deemed formerly Greek Catholic which were 'converted' by the Russians.  The Catholic Church and the Polish state wanted the property and churches for Catholicism, and this repossession took on an alarming level of hostility and force, especially since anti-Russian sentiment was high.  In 1938 there was a wave of seizures and burnings, this time by the Polish Army that was sent to 'pacify' parts of Galicia which resulted in the destruction of most of the Orthodox Churches and chapels in the region.  At the same time, the Catholic Church, with state encouragement began efforts at converting both Orthodox and Greek Catholic to Latin rite Catholicism.


Правословност Или Смрт...
Нема Ништа Само то ....... Grin

Can the dislikes between Polish Catholic ,Eastern Catholics and the  Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox be compared to the dislikes between Serbs and Croatians.......

Well, comparing 'dislikes' might be a bit difficult.  I of course am most likely wrong, however, an example could be the ideology of Yugoslavism and the assimilationist tendencies of the Polish Second Republic (unless of course if you consider Yugoslavism an imposition!).  However, that being said, there are some superficial similarities between the Polish Second Republic and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and after 1929 the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.  Both for instance had no 'overall' majority of any given ethnic group.  Another example, Polish soldiers, 'colonists' if you will, were enticed to settle in the Ukraine after the Polish-Soviet War.  I have heard similar in regards to Serb soldiers in the aftermath of WWI being offered land in Croatia.  Of course, in both Croatia and Ukraine there were already Serbs and Poles living in the respected territories for hundreds of years already.  I have read that in Croatia there was a degree of resentment against Yugoslavia seen as an extension of the Serbian monarchy either at times exacerbated by Radić's federalism, and later by the Ustaša, as opposed to centralization of the monarchy and of Pašić.

I don't really want to get into the ideological components of either the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), from which the Ukrainian Uprising Army (UPA) sprang from, and the Ustaša movement because for different people there are different historical memories and viewpoints.  However, both would subscribe to 'integral' nationalism by which society is an organic unity and is both exclusivist and particularist.  This would culminate in massacres of Poles in parts of Ukraine and of Serbs in the NDH.


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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 08:02:46 AM »

Quote
The Catholic Church in Poland cannot escape blame either, as it was used as an assimilating tool of Polishness upon an unwilling population.

It's not so clearly. The persion between two Wars (1918-1939) can by split into two pieces. First 1918-1926 it was time of domination so-called polish nationalists (narodowa demokracja, endecja). They were very closely connected with Catholic Church and not only Latin but for example one of the most honourable figure was Armenian Archibishop Jozef Teodorowicz(Հովսէպ Թեոֆիլ Թեոդորովիչ). He was considered to be a real polish patriot. It's not true that Polish Church wanted to latinize Estarn Catholic Churches. Rather there was an attepmt to  creat Polish identity based on Catholic faith regardless of ecclesiastical customs or rites.

Quote
In brief, in 1922 there was a wave of seizures of Orthodox Churches and property that was deemed formerly Greek Catholic which were 'converted' by the Russians.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neounia_na_Wo%C5%82yniu here is an article about re-Union. You can not forget that they indeed were forced to convert to Orthodoxy during the Russian occupation.  

Last but not least,
Over the eastern border where the provocations were permanently organized by Soviets and the Orthodox population didn't give a certanty o about their loyalty.
It's a simplification but If I can make some comparision to the Bulgaria - Turks-Pomaks-Bulgarians.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 08:11:32 AM by christianos » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 11:31:15 AM »



Quote
It's not so clearly. The persion between two Wars (1918-1939) can by split into two pieces. First 1918-1926 it was time of domination so-called polish nationalists (narodowa demokracja, endecja). They were very closely connected with Catholic Church and not only Latin but for example one of the most honourable figure was Armenian Archibishop Jozef Teodorowicz(Հովսէպ Թեոֆիլ Թեոդորովիչ). He was considered to be a real polish patriot. It's not true that Polish Church wanted to latinize Estarn Catholic Churches. Rather there was an attepmt to  creat Polish identity based on Catholic faith regardless of ecclesiastical customs or rites
.

Well, my point about conversion was actually in regards to the Orthodox but I forgot to specify, but thank you for the link regarding Archbishop Teodorowicz.  I do agree with your point about the creation of a Polish identity based on Catholicism in the kresy,which was why any potential conversion of the Orthodox to the Eastern Catholic Churches was looked upon negatively by most Latin Rite Bishops and the government at the time given that the Eastern Catholic Church, and Metropolitan Shepts'kyi can be described as a sanctuary for Ukrainian national sentiment.  That the Eastern Catholics also saw themselves as a natural bridge between the Latin Rite Catholics and the Orthodox, was also viewed negatively by Polish ecclesiastical and political figures.

Quote
In brief, in 1922 there was a wave of seizures of Orthodox Churches and property that was deemed formerly Greek Catholic which were 'converted' by the Russians.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neounia_na_Wo%C5%82yniu here is an article about re-Union. You can not forget that they indeed were forced to convert to Orthodoxy during the Russian occupation.

Thank you for the interesting link.  I would not argue that the Eastern Catholics were subject to persecution by the Russian authorities, and indeed that quite a number of these properties were originally Eastern Catholic.  In regards to the 'Neounia', Bishop Przeździecki did indeed receive Vatican approval to initiate a new 'Eastern Rite' in his jurisdiction.  However, according to Jan Jachymek's Religia i Kościół rzymskokatolicki w polskiej myśli politycznej 1919-1993, less than one percent of the Orthodox population converted to the Byzantine-Slavonic Rite.  But like you said earlier, the Polish state was promoting a sense of Polishness through Catholicism, the government would not have been happy with the Byzantine-Slavonic Rite which in their minds might hinder assimilation and lessen Polish cultural influence or worse, might became close with the Eastern Catholic Church. 

Quote
Last but not least,
Over the eastern border where the provocations were permanently organized by Soviets and the Orthodox population didn't give a certanty o about their loyalty.
It's a simplification but If I can make some comparision to the Bulgaria - Turks-Pomaks-Bulgarians.
[/quote]
Interesting.  I think it is a simplification but even so there is a tenuous similarity.  There are indeed some theories that describe the Pomaks as Muslim Bulgarians, while others view them as Bulgarian speaking Turks who forgot their identity, while others say that they were a Balkan tribe converted to Islam by Arab missionaries.  What I can say from personal observation is that most Bulgarians consider the Pomaks to be Bulgarian, regardless that they are Muslim.
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 12:41:18 PM »

when I mentioned Pomaks I wanted to show simillar way to think of some people "we should help them to back to their heritage".

Everything what was happened after First World War has its explanation in the perion of Rzeczypospolita where even Orthodox were jointed to create common "Homeland".
Polish nation in spite of mostly confess Catholicism in the past was more diverse - even between WW I and WW II a lot of Protestants held the offices. Even today it's pretty hard to find an Orthodox  who says "I'm a Pole". Mostly they declate them self as a Belariusian, Podlachyan etc. The process to make Polish orthodox was stopped by Russian. I'm sure you know all of that, so I don't have to torment my poor English for explaing you this.

BTW I received from an acquaintance priest here in Veliko Tarnovo, a very interesting book about the Union of Bulgarian Church with Rome. Maybe you know it "История на българското движение за единение с католичецката църква през XIX век".

Благодаря ви за дискусия и поздравявам:)
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 12:57:09 PM »

Even today it's pretty hard to find an Orthodox  who says "I'm a Pole".

Not among the young generation. I know many Orthodox in their 20s who developed a Polish identity, instead of Ukrainian, Belarussian or Podlachyan.

Mostly they declate them self as a Belariusian, Podlachyan etc.

Why would they declare themselves otherwise? Most faithful of the Polish Orthodox Church are Eastern Slavs, so definitely not Polish. Btw, some Orthodox from Poland declare their ethnicity and even language as simply 'Orthodox'. Grin

The process to make Polish orthodox was stopped by Russian.

What do you mean by "the process to make Polish orthodox"? The only way of making Polish Orthodox is conversion of the actual Poles to Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:12:14 PM by Michał » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 01:07:07 PM »

when I mentioned Pomaks I wanted to show simillar way to think of some people "we should help them to back to their heritage".

Everything what was happened after First World War has its explanation in the perion of Rzeczypospolita where even Orthodox were jointed to create common "Homeland".
Polish nation in spite of mostly confess Catholicism in the past was more diverse - even between WW I and WW II a lot of Protestants held the offices. Even today it's pretty hard to find an Orthodox  who says "I'm a Pole".

In Chicago, we have quite a few.

Although Russian rule sped up the return to Orthodoxy, and forced it in cases, it did not start it: that had been going on in Austria Hungarian rule, and across the border in Czcechoslovakia, the return continued between the World Wars.
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 02:17:18 PM »

Quote
In Chicago, we have quite a few.

In Chicago you have many Poles:)

I don't hold a grudge against these who declated them self as a eastern Slavs and not as a Poles.
Here in Poland, Ukraine, Serbia there are some stereotypes - if you are latin Catholic in Ukraine for sure you are Polish or Hungarian if you are Unite in Poland probably you are Ukrainian or Lemek etc.
Becouse of Volyn's masacre there are a large Wall between Polish and Ukrainian nation and religion excuse this fact. I'm 100% of Polish and the same time Greek Catholic.
In Orthodoxy already there is liturgy in Polish but I think I will be waiting forever to attend in Greek Catholic Service in Polish Smiley

Ja tam nie mam problemów nito z prawosławnymi nito z nikim innym Smiley Pozdrawiam braci ortodoksów!

P.S I really appreciate Michał that you have Icone from Częstochowa. She is Queen of Poland and I hope this Holy Icone of Black Madonna can help us to be pround Polish and in the same time - me Catholic, you Orthodox Smiley
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 02:21:34 PM by christianos » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2010, 02:31:31 PM »

Here in Poland, Ukraine, Serbia there are some stereotypes - if you are latin Catholic in Ukraine for sure you are Polish or Hungarian if you are Unite in Poland probably you are Ukrainian or Lemek etc.

But that's simply true in most cases. Wink

I really appreciate Michał that you have Icone from Częstochowa. She is Queen of Poland and I hope this Holy Icone of Black Madonna can help us to be pround Polish and in the same time - me Catholic, you Orthodox Smiley

Amen! Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 02:35:03 PM »

Quote
In Chicago, we have quite a few.

In Chicago you have many Poles:)

I don't hold a grudge against these who declated them self as a eastern Slavs and not as a Poles.
Here in Poland, Ukraine, Serbia there are some stereotypes - if you are latin Catholic in Ukraine for sure you are Polish or Hungarian if you are Unite in Poland probably you are Ukrainian or Lemek etc.
Becouse of Volyn's masacre there are a large Wall between Polish and Ukrainian nation and religion excuse this fact. I'm 100% of Polish and the same time Greek Catholic.
In Orthodoxy already there is liturgy in Polish but I think I will be waiting forever to attend in Greek Catholic Service in Polish Smiley

Ja tam nie mam problemów nito z prawosławnymi nito z nikim innym Smiley Pozdrawiam braci ortodoksów!

P.S I really appreciate Michał that you have Icone from Częstochowa. She is Queen of Poland and I hope this Holy Icone of Black Madonna can help us to be pround Polish and in the same time - me Catholic, you Orthodox Smiley
I went to venerate her at Jasna Góra, and I'm not even Polish (my Pomeranian ancesters claimed to be German, although they spoke Polish  Shocked).
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 03:09:09 PM »

when I mentioned Pomaks I wanted to show simillar way to think of some people "we should help them to back to their heritage".

Everything what was happened after First World War has its explanation in the perion of Rzeczypospolita where even Orthodox were jointed to create common "Homeland".
Polish nation in spite of mostly confess Catholicism in the past was more diverse - even between WW I and WW II a lot of Protestants held the offices. Even today it's pretty hard to find an Orthodox  who says "I'm a Pole". Mostly they declate them self as a Belariusian, Podlachyan etc. The process to make Polish orthodox was stopped by Russian. I'm sure you know all of that, so I don't have to torment my poor English for explaing you this.

BTW I received from an acquaintance priest here in Veliko Tarnovo, a very interesting book about the Union of Bulgarian Church with Rome. Maybe you know it "История на българското движение за единение с католичецката църква през XIX век".

Благодаря ви за дискусия и поздравявам:)


Jestem Polakiem, prawosławnego wyznania i obecnie mieszkam w Bulgarii  Smiley

Всичко най-хубаво и на вас  Grin
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 03:12:12 PM by trifon » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 03:15:29 PM »

haha don't warry you can always become one of us Smiley My beloved saint is Sharbel from Lebanon but it could be extremely hard for me to become lebanese Maronite.
Even in Cordoba there is Icone from Jasna Góra


Quote
Jestem Polakiem, prawosławnego wyznania i obecnie mieszkam w Bulgarii  Smiley

Всичко най-хубаво за вас  Grin


aaaaa не е вярно! Къде живеш? До сега аз срещах само Поляци кои са католици, но много съм изненаден. Моят български все още е много слаб но надявам се че ме добро разбра! Бъди жив и здрав брат Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2010, 08:37:47 AM »


Quote
aaaaa не е вярно! Къде живеш? До сега аз срещах само Поляци кои са католици, но много съм изненаден. Моят български все още е много слаб но надявам се че ме добро разбра! Бъди жив и здрав брат

Много е странно да си говорим на български, когато и двамата явно не владеем много добре Grin  Аз скоро се покръстих като православен. живея в София от една година

For all non-Bulgarian speakers: sorry for taking this thread a bit off-topic, but I was just explaining my situation in Bulgaria to a fellow Pole..in Bulgarian... Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 05:45:40 PM »

преди дова бил ли си католик? питах един свещенник и като католик няма нужда да се кръстя... малко е странно за мен. Ок хайде на полски хехе Smiley

Have u been in Catholic church in Sofia? There is a Mass in polish Smiley When I was living in Sofia I went there and church was full of Poles.
greetings Smiley

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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 05:31:26 AM »

Quote
Could someone direct me to a good source of information on the persecution of Orthodox Christians and Greek Catholics by the Polish state during the interwar years (1919-39)?

I have heard that the Poles conducted a massive campaign of Polanization which even extended to the Greek Catholics Ukrainian and Carpatho-Russian peoples.  The state tried to coerce all ethnic religious minorities to embrace Polish culture and RC religion.
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For English readers, I would recommend checking out Rome's Most Faithful Daughter: The Catholic Church and Independent Poland, 1914-1939 (Athens: Ohio University Press, 2009) by Neal Pease. Two chapters are of specific interest here.  Chapter 6 'Lwów and Wilno', which deals with the Catholic minorities of Eastern Poland, and chapter 7 'Poland, the Orthodox, and the Conversion of Russia'. Interesting read.
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