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Author Topic: Orthodox youth from USA to worship St. Xenia and St. John of Kronstadt relics  (Read 1594 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 23, 2010, 01:17:58 PM »



Interfax:

Orthodox youth from USA to worship St. Xenia and St. John of Kronstadt relics



St. Petersburg, January 22, Interfax - St. Tatiana International Youth Meetings have started in the Northern capital on Friday.

Students of the country’s leading higher educational establishments and members of Orthodox youth organizations will attend the Meetings timed for the Student Day. Students from the USA, descendants of Russian emigrants of the early 20th century, will also come to celebrations, the Petersburg Diocese reports.

Organizers will give a ball in the Baron Stiglitz Manson and hold excursions and pilgrimages for participants. Besides, young people will visit the Memorial Museum of Feodor Dostoyevsky and venerate holy relics of St. Xenia of Petersburg and John of Krondstadt.

Students from Russia and USA will also participate in a symposium where they can listen to lectures of Orthodox theologians of Petersburg and New York.

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2010, 02:18:45 PM »

I think the translation is off because as I understand it, Orthodox Christians do NOT "worship" relics.
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2010, 02:21:41 PM »

We actually do worship them: "proskynoumen".
We bring them "proskynisis"/"douleia", but not "latreia".
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 02:34:28 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2010, 02:32:21 PM »

I think the translation is off because as I understand it, Orthodox Christians do NOT "worship" relics.

The word "worship" can mean either veneration or adoration, so yes, we do.
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2010, 02:33:38 PM »

I think the translation is off because as I understand it, Orthodox Christians do NOT "worship" relics.

Well, we sort of do. The word "worship" can EITHER mean adoration or veneration. Nowadays, it means the former. But older Orthodox texts speak of the worship of the saints, etc..
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 02:33:54 PM »

I think the translation is off because as I understand it, Orthodox Christians do NOT "worship" relics.

The word "worship" can mean either veneration or adoration, so yes, we do.

Yep.
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2010, 02:41:50 PM »

Even "adoration" (<Lat. adoratio< adorare) was pretty loosely used in ecclesiastical Latin, both patristic and liturgical. I would say that there wasn't any very sharp distinction between  "venerari" and "adorare" .
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2010, 02:44:42 PM »

To clarify a bad translation:  there are three degrees of worship:  Latria (which involves sacrifice, and is due to God alone), hyperdulia (veneration of the Theotokos and her relics), and dulia (veneration of other Saints and their relics).  These distinctions were formulated in the time of St. John Damascene, and received assent from the Seventh Ecumenical Council.
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 04:43:11 PM »

Even "adoration" (<Lat. adoratio< adorare) was pretty loosely used in ecclesiastical Latin, both patristic and liturgical. I would say that there wasn't any very sharp distinction between  "venerari" and "adorare" .

Right, this can be seen in the "adoration of the cross."
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 05:02:40 AM »


To clarify a bad translation:  there are three degrees of worship:  Latria (which involves sacrifice, and is due to God alone), hyperdulia (veneration of the Theotokos and her relics), and dulia (veneration of other Saints and their relics).  These distinctions were formulated in the time of St. John Damascene, and received assent from the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

Is this so? I didn't not know that the concept of "hyperdulia" was formulated outside the Roman church.
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 02:47:05 PM »

Maybe not explicitly, but there's a certain implicit notion of it in the way we venerate the Theotokos.
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 04:27:53 PM »

Even "adoration" (<Lat. adoratio< adorare) was pretty loosely used in ecclesiastical Latin, both patristic and liturgical. I would say that there wasn't any very sharp distinction between  "venerari" and "adorare".

Isn't this just admitting what the Protestants are so concerned about?
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2010, 05:08:01 PM »

I suppose so, but, to repeat, it's just one more example of seeking to define everything to a T in the vain hope that if only we could define everything to a T, we'd see all things clearly and be saved.

This is why Alexei Khomiakov, replying to a Protestant's question about how to seek the purity of the primitive Church, said, "First of all, throw off your Roman Catholicism."
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2010, 05:41:23 PM »


Even "adoration" (<Lat. adoratio< adorare) was pretty loosely used in ecclesiastical Latin, both patristic and liturgical. I would say that there wasn't any very sharp distinction between  "venerari" and "adorare".

Isn't this just admitting what the Protestants are so concerned about?

Seeing as how there is still a distinction between "dulia" and "latria", I would think that it is still clear that we do not worship our saints as if they are God.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »


Maybe not explicitly, but there's a certain implicit notion of it in the way we venerate the Theotokos.

I never really understood the distinction between "dulia" and "hyperdulia", it seems a little artificial.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 11:42:05 PM »

I never really understood the distinction between "dulia" and "hyperdulia", it seems a little artificial.

Can you not tell that the Mother of God holds the place of Champion Leader among the saints?  She is the foremost saint; Chief of the Saints, the Queen of Heaven.  Her dulia is certainly hyper.  We might honor St. Patrick, but we don't bring him up in almost every proscribed prayer.  We do with her, so the veneration is heightened to a special level.  Would you agree?
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2010, 12:24:47 AM »

I never really understood the distinction between "dulia" and "hyperdulia", it seems a little artificial.

Can you not tell that the Mother of God holds the place of Champion Leader among the saints?  She is the foremost saint; Chief of the Saints, the Queen of Heaven.  Her dulia is certainly hyper.  We might honor St. Patrick, but we don't bring him up in almost every proscribed prayer.  We do with her, so the veneration is heightened to a special level.  Would you agree?

Oh, so hyperdulia isn't actually different in substance from dulia but only in degree?
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2010, 01:03:39 AM »

Acts 10:25-26

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And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Rev 22:8-9

Quote
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

"Proskuneo" is the word used for "worship" in both of these passages. I'm not sure but it looks like the word at one time actually meant "worship" in the context which Protestants accuse both Catholics and Orthodox of giving to saints and relics. It looks like the distinction between use of the words proskunesis and latreia for veneration and worshop was clarified by the Church at some point in time to clarify teaching and practice. Orthodoxy does make a clear distinction between veneratin and worship and what type of honor belongs to God alone and what type of honor is used to glorify God through His saints, icons, and relics.
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2010, 03:07:06 AM »

Oh, so hyperdulia isn't actually different in substance from dulia but only in degree?

Well, I have no knowledge of any language outside of English, so all I can say is that is how I've always interpreted the distinction, or at least how it comes across in English.
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2010, 03:20:55 AM »

Oh, so hyperdulia isn't actually different in substance from dulia but only in degree?

Well, I have no knowledge of any language outside of English, so all I can say is that is how I've always interpreted the distinction, or at least how it comes across in English.

If so, yes, I agree with your perspective.
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