OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 21, 2014, 08:18:17 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Protestant innovations  (Read 11932 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« on: January 22, 2010, 01:49:03 PM »

I am slightly puzzled by the frequent Orthodox references in people’s posts to our Protestant or Evangelical “innovations”, for I am not aware of any. If you were saying that we have pared down the true Faith and removed vital aspects, I’d know what you mean: things like prayer for the dead, prayer to the saints, the effect of the epiclesis, baptismal regeneration, chrismation as the way to receive the Holy Spirit, sacraments additional to baptism and the Lord’s Supper, even the perpetual virginity of Mary – and doubtless others. But I cannot see what you mean when you say we have added new beliefs, that is, innovations. (I do not of course refer to such recent and regrettable practices as the ordination in some churches of women; nor to what many of us view (as you do) as irreverent entertainment-based ‘megachurches’; nor to various practices brought in by groups who might assume the name 'Protestant' but hardly retain its beliefs and practices – such as those who praise homosexuality). Leaving aside such recent innovations, and looking only at real, classic Evangelicalism or Protestantism, let me ask you: what do you mean by our “innovations”?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 01:49:40 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,191


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 01:51:18 PM »

I am slightly puzzled by the frequent Orthodox references in people’s posts to our Protestant or Evangelical “innovations”, for I am not aware of any. If you were saying that we have pared down the true Faith and removed vital aspects, I’d know what you mean: things like prayer for the dead, prayer to the saints, the effect of the epiclesis, baptismal regeneration, chrismation as the way to receive the Holy Spirit, sacraments additional to baptism and the Lord’s Supper, even the perpetual virginity of Mary – and doubtless others. But I cannot see what you mean when you say we have added new beliefs, that is, innovations. (I do not of course refer to such recent and regrettable practices as the ordination in some churches of women; nor to what many of us view (as you do) as irreverent entertainment-based ‘megachurches’; nor to various practices brought in by groups who might assume the name 'Protestant' but hardly retain its beliefs and practices – such as those who praise homosexuality). Leaving aside such recent innovations, and looking only at real, classic Evangelicalism or Protestantism, let me ask you: what do you mean by our “innovations”?
Would EO's consider doctrines like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide innovations, because they never existed in the Early Church?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
augustin717
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,634



« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 01:54:08 PM »

Protestantism is an innovation in itself. No need to go into the particulars.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,888



« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 02:12:12 PM »

Would EO's consider doctrines like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide innovations, because they never existed in the Early Church?

I would call them New Dogmas which are not of apostolic origin.  And yes, those ideas are innovative.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:12:28 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,901


« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 02:23:52 PM »

I think much of this is exemplified in the fallout from the defect of cheap grace (living life devoid of true discipleship & church discipline) that was defined by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. On an individual basis this can happen to any Christian but on communal basis the problem is probably more serious within Protestantism because of doctrinal fragmentation.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:26:05 PM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,269



« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 05:02:44 PM »

I’d know what you mean: things like prayer for the dead, prayer to the saints, the effect of the epiclesis, baptismal regeneration, chrismation as the way to receive the Holy Spirit, sacraments additional to baptism and the Lord’s Supper, even the perpetual virginity of Mary – and doubtless others.

These were accepted by the early Church. Nobody has contested them since the Protestants. Innovations by the Protestants I think would include sola scriptura, sola fide, once saved always saved (though not taught by all Protestants), predestination (in Calvinist circles), the rapture, and others I can't think of. I would just like to mention that I believe even Luther and possibly Calvin actually taught the Mother of God's perpetual virginity like the Orthodox do. It was a later innovation after Luther and Calvin that taught that she was not.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 05:27:25 PM »

sola fide, once saved always saved ... predestination ... the rapture

I'd like to make sure I understand you. Working backwards, I assume that by "the rapture" you are referring to the idea that Christians will be snatched away from the earth prior to, or at some point during, the final Great Tribulation and thus separate from the Second Coming. If so, I agree - I think that idea is fairly new and that it is being popularised now by certain films and novels. Secondly, I assume that you would trace eternal security and predestination back to Augustine and thence through a western line including Calvin and Beza, down to today's "Reformed" Evangelicals. By sola fide I guess you mean a profession of Christian faith which is not evidenced by ensuing good works (which a previous post calls 'cheap grace'). Without at this point discussing such issues, am I understanding you correctly?
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 05:40:34 PM »

The Prosperity Gospel/"Name it and Claim it" theology and the like immediately come to mind as an "innovation."

Martin Luther's version of the Bible.

"Speaking in tongues" a la Assemblies of God. I'm not speaking about the "speaking in tongues" as stated in the Bible. I'm talking about the incessent babbiling done at Charismatic services that is labeled as "Biblical" but is, in fact, NOT.

Being "slain in the Spirit." I've seen this done at Charismatic services as well, and I have no idea what it's supposed to be. A person will walk up to the front of the Church while everyone is praying and "speaking in tongues," the Pastor will pray over the individual, bop them on the head, and next thing you know their down on the ground twitching and moaning. This is supposed to be the work of the Holy Spirit?

The theology that once you have "accepted Jesus as your Savior" all your sins are washed away and you are no longer guilty of any sin. Ever. You can go out and kill someone, but it's okay, because Jesus died for your sins. Um, no thank you.

Televangelists.

That's all I've got for now.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
ChristusDominus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Latin Rite
Posts: 936


Saint Aloysius Gonzaga


« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 09:20:53 PM »

I know this is the Orthodox-Protestant thread so please forgive the intrusion. I just thought about two things that came to mind; the doctrine of Holy Communion and the Baptism. I think most would agree that the doctrine concerning these two Sacraments within most Protestant Churches can be viewed as innovations. Holy Communion is seen as a simple "rememberance meal", and Baptism confers no grace; a simple declaration of one's faith and not as spiritual regeneration (John 3:5).

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 09:21:45 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 09:54:07 PM »

sola fide, once saved always saved ... predestination ... the rapture

I'd like to make sure I understand you. Working backwards, I assume that by "the rapture" you are referring to the idea that Christians will be snatched away from the earth prior to, or at some point during, the final Great Tribulation and thus separate from the Second Coming. If so, I agree - I think that idea is fairly new and that it is being popularised now by certain films and novels. Secondly, I assume that you would trace eternal security and predestination back to Augustine and thence through a western line including Calvin and Beza, down to today's "Reformed" Evangelicals. By sola fide I guess you mean a profession of Christian faith which is not evidenced by ensuing good works (which a previous post calls 'cheap grace'). Without at this point discussing such issues, am I understanding you correctly?

A couple of quotes from John Calvin.

Quote
Moreover although the Greek Fathers, above others, and especially Chrysostom, have exceeded due bounds in extolling the powers of the human will, yet all ancient theologians, with the exception of Augustine, are so confused, vacillating, and contradictory on this subject, that no certainty can be obtained from their writings. It is needless, therefore, to be more particular in enumerating every separate opinion. It will be sufficient to extract from each as much as the exposition of the subject seems to require. Succeeding writers (every one courting applause for his acuteness in the defence of human nature) have uniformly, one after the other, gone more widely astray...

Quote
It may, perhaps, seem that I have greatly prejudiced my own view by confessing that all the ecclesiastical writers, with the exception of Augustine, have spoken so ambiguously or inconsistently on this subject, that no certainty is attainable from their writings.

Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,288


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 11:43:38 PM »

How about Christian rock bands (mostly heavy metal) performing as part of services?   Huh
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »

How about Christian rock bands (mostly heavy metal) performing as part of services?   Huh
This is one innovation that I personally would not have a use for.
And I am sorry to say that this is occurring in Roman Catholic Churches as a part of the Mass service. 
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,859



« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2010, 12:05:18 AM »

How about Christian rock bands (mostly heavy metal) performing as part of services?   Huh

That'd be awesome to see. Profane, yes, and not worship, but awesome nonetheless. I can just see the little old ladies singing along to Mortification or something. But seriously, what Church do you know of that has heavy metal performed at their service?


Regarding the OP... well... um... that threw me for a loop, David. I guess, even though I was once a Protestant, I don't have much experience thinking from that perspective. Even when I was a Protestant, living on campus at a Protestant College, going to school as a Protestant Bible Studies major (briefly), I still came to realise that there were a number of ideas in Protestantism that were innovations, many of which have been mentioned (faith alone, scripture alone, etc.)  angel
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:09:53 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,288


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2010, 12:19:03 AM »

How about Christian rock bands (mostly heavy metal) performing as part of services?   Huh

That'd be awesome to see. Profane, yes, and not worship, but awesome nonetheless. I can just see the little old ladies singing along to Mortification or something. But seriously, what Church do you know of that has heavy metal performed at their service?

On a drive one rainy Sunday afternoon in 2005, I stopped at an Assemblies of God congregation outside of Hanover, PA.  After 30 minutes or so, the youth ministry was warming up which could be heard during the main service on the Powerpoint screens.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,269



« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2010, 02:12:00 AM »

Quote
I'd like to make sure I understand you. Working backwards, I assume that by "the rapture" you are referring to the idea that Christians will be snatched away from the earth prior to, or at some point during, the final Great Tribulation and thus separate from the Second Coming. If so, I agree - I think that idea is fairly new and that it is being popularised now by certain films and novels. Secondly, I assume that you would trace eternal security and predestination back to Augustine and thence through a western line including Calvin and Beza, down to today's "Reformed" Evangelicals. By sola fide I guess you mean a profession of Christian faith which is not evidenced by ensuing good works (which a previous post calls 'cheap grace'). Without at this point discussing such issues, am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I think you understand me correctly. My biggest problem is the faith alone belief. St. James says that faith without works is dead. I think the “faith alone” leaves open for many to simply be baptized and then confess that they believe in Christ and that is it and they can pretty much do whatever. We have to work toward Christ and struggle for His sake, not just simply confess Him and not follow the commandments. I’ve never really understood the mentality. Christ commanded us to take up His Cross and we have to take it up and struggle to keep His commandments.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 02:28:10 AM by Andrew21091 » Logged
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2010, 02:53:28 AM »

You lack apostolic succession, you have no Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers. Protestants are innovators. That's why I'm not one anymore.
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2010, 02:58:00 AM »

Protestantism is an innovation in itself. No need to go into the particulars.

Great point.  But although there are sooo many disturbing aspects about all Protestant sects, I always thought it important to see that Martin Luther was simply trying to carve away all the Roman Catholic innovations (Papal infallibility, indulgences, Mary as Co-Redemptrix, ...). 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,888



« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2010, 03:03:17 AM »

You lack apostolic succession, you have no Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers. Protestants are innovators. That's why I'm not one anymore.

Did you even read the original post?
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2010, 03:04:24 AM »

You lack apostolic succession, you have no Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers. Protestants are innovators. That's why I'm not one anymore.

Exactly.  With over 24,000 (and growing) Protestant sects, this should tell us quite a lot about 'innovations'.  In fact, St. Theophan the Recluse wrote a small booklet entitled Preaching Another Christ- An Orthodox View of Evangelicalism.  So we can see that not only is Protestantism guilty of Innovation, it often teeters on the edge of blasphemy.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2010, 07:28:18 AM »

It is hugely helpful to have this opportunity to see myself and my colleagues through your eyes, so to speak - to find out what impressions we are giving of ourselves. It will take a while to re-read and digest even the posts offered so far, and I hope more will come. I hope to make some replies in due time; maybe other Evangelicals on the forum will do so too.

I must say though, that if Evangelicalism really is as some of you depict it, then I can hardly blame you for having nothing to do with it; yet it is true that all of these things do find a place somewhere in groups which would probably define themselves as either Protestant or Evangelical.

One of you asked where heavy music might be experienced as part of the "worship". My son (who has not openly professed faith, or been baptised, and is in his 30s) went some time ago to a church in York with a girlfriend, and his comment was that it was like a bad rock concert. He is into heavy music. The church is actually called "The Rock", and has been purchased by a Pentecostal group. It is the building where W. E. Sangster was ordained between the two Word Wars, when it was Methodist. What changes it has seen!
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,492



« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 08:57:00 AM »

I must say though, that if Evangelicalism really is as some of you depict it, then I can hardly blame you for having nothing to do with it; yet it is true that all of these things do find a place somewhere in groups which would probably define themselves as either Protestant or Evangelical.

One of you asked where heavy music might be experienced as part of the "worship". My son (who has not openly professed faith, or been baptised, and is in his 30s) went some time ago to a church in York with a girlfriend, and his comment was that it was like a bad rock concert. He is into heavy music. The church is actually called "The Rock", and has been purchased by a Pentecostal group. It is the building where W. E. Sangster was ordained between the two Word Wars, when it was Methodist. What changes it has seen!

David, Yes, many of us have not only seen, but been repelled by the sort of Evangelicalism we report, and that has often been the reason we rejoiced when we found the Orthodox Church! This board may have an overabundance of people with this experience and so it may be that the picture is somewhat skewed in that direction, but it is very real and does exist.

I saw it coming in my former church. It's not what caused me to become Orthodox, but it was something that made it easy to let go of my former connection. My wife still worships there. She is on the "worship team" and is thrilled about how they are using some current rock music (they haven't hit the heavy metal stuff yet) within their services to make a point. She has changed more than I have in many regards in the last ten years.
Logged
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 10:09:36 AM »

It is hugely helpful to have this opportunity to see myself and my colleagues through your eyes, so to speak - to find out what impressions we are giving of ourselves. It will take a while to re-read and digest even the posts offered so far, and I hope more will come. I hope to make some replies in due time; maybe other Evangelicals on the forum will do so too.

I must say though, that if Evangelicalism really is as some of you depict it, then I can hardly blame you for having nothing to do with it; yet it is true that all of these things do find a place somewhere in groups which would probably define themselves as either Protestant or Evangelical.

One of you asked where heavy music might be experienced as part of the "worship". My son (who has not openly professed faith, or been baptised, and is in his 30s) went some time ago to a church in York with a girlfriend, and his comment was that it was like a bad rock concert. He is into heavy music. The church is actually called "The Rock", and has been purchased by a Pentecostal group. It is the building where W. E. Sangster was ordained between the two Word Wars, when it was Methodist. What changes it has seen!


Hi David,  Like so many on this board, I to came from a Protestant background, Baptist.  I recently read a paper that I believe speaks directly to the problem within protestantism and speaks directly concerning the rampant innovations.

http://www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/paradosis2.doc

Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 10:31:08 AM »

I am slightly puzzled by the frequent Orthodox references in people’s posts to our Protestant or Evangelical “innovations”, for I am not aware of any. If you were saying that we have pared down the true Faith and removed vital aspects, I’d know what you mean: things like prayer for the dead, prayer to the saints, the effect of the epiclesis, baptismal regeneration, chrismation as the way to receive the Holy Spirit, sacraments additional to baptism and the Lord’s Supper, even the perpetual virginity of Mary – and doubtless others. But I cannot see what you mean when you say we have added new beliefs, that is, innovations. (I do not of course refer to such recent and regrettable practices as the ordination in some churches of women; nor to what many of us view (as you do) as irreverent entertainment-based ‘megachurches’; nor to various practices brought in by groups who might assume the name 'Protestant' but hardly retain its beliefs and practices – such as those who praise homosexuality). Leaving aside such recent innovations, and looking only at real, classic Evangelicalism or Protestantism, let me ask you: what do you mean by our “innovations”?

I was thinking about this post as I drove home from my mother's last night, in particular the part I have bolded.

The problem is that it is not "fringe" groups of Protestantism that have adopted the practices of ordaining women and homosexuals; it is the so-called "mainstream" ones as well.

Case-in-point: My mother lives in one of the oldest towns in the state. (It was established in 1666.) The main road in town is lined with very traditional, mainstream Protestant churches; Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and Epsicopalian. All children/direct descendents of the Reformation.

Of the four listed, the only church that does not promote the ordination of women or homosexuals is the Lutheran church, and that is because it belongs to the Missouri Synod, a very "orthodox" group within the Lutheran faith in America. (You can read more about the LCMS synod here: http://www.lcms.org/default.asp)

By reading your posts, I get the impression that in your view, those who hold fast and true to the beliefs of the Fathers of the Reformation are true "Protestants." The problem is that the "children" of the Reformation, those who bear the names of the Reformation, have shed those beliefs just as easily as they shed the beliefs of the faith they protested against.

So the slippery slope theory has proven true. 

What started with the schism in 1054, was exacerbated in the 1500's has led us to the "anything goes" Protestant Christianity of today.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 11:26:50 AM »

You lack apostolic succession, you have no Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers. Protestants are innovators. That's why I'm not one anymore.

Did you even read the original post?

Yes, he discounts these as additions. He sees them as subtractions. I agree and disagree.
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2010, 02:01:40 PM »

those who hold fast and true to the beliefs of the Fathers of the Reformation are true "Protestants." The problem is that the "children" of the Reformation, those who bear the names of the Reformation, have shed those beliefs

Well said! It gives rise to another example of some of us on the forum talking about different things whilst using the same words. I, and many with me, are as horrified as you Orthodox about some of the practices instanced on this thread. So in fact we agree: these things are not of God. But I reject them because (as I and others see it) they are not Evangelical, whilst you reject Evangelicalism at least partly because (as you see it) they are Evangelical! We both agree they are not of God, and tomorrow neither you nor I will be in a church which believes or allows them.

I realise this does not address all the matters raised, and I hope to get round to replying further - perhaps next week.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 02:02:29 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2010, 02:09:54 PM »

You lack apostolic succession, ... Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers.

In these and similar matters it seems to me that your view and ours are mirror images of each other. Each of us sees the other as having introduced innovations into the Faith - I called them 'accretions' on one thread some months back. We see apostolic succession, baptismal regeneration, the change in the bread and wine of Communion, prayer to the saints, the deutero-canonical books (Apocrypha), and Holy Tradition as innovations added to the Faith: you see the exact opposite - us innovating by their removal from the Faith.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2010, 03:04:23 PM »

You lack apostolic succession, ... Holy Mysteries, you do not venerate the Theotokos and the saints, you have stripped the Old Testament, and have abstracted the New Testament from the context of the tradition of the Fathers.

In these and similar matters it seems to me that your view and ours are mirror images of each other. Each of us sees the other as having introduced innovations into the Faith - I called them 'accretions' on one thread some months back. We see apostolic succession, baptismal regeneration, the change in the bread and wine of Communion, prayer to the saints, the deutero-canonical books (Apocrypha), and Holy Tradition as innovations added to the Faith: you see the exact opposite - us innovating by their removal from the Faith.

Seriously, how many times are we going to go around about this?  You see them as additions, yet have no proof to offer of such!  Why should we place ANY value whatsoever in your opinion that these things were added?  Further, why should YOU place any value in your opinion that they were added when, again, you have NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that they were, indeed, additions?

Until you grasp this concept- that your faith is based SOLELY in your OPINION, not in FACT, not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced, and that you hold your own opinion above all others (including the great Christians who have gone before you from the dawn of Christianity until now), we aren't going to get anywhere.

I say this with love, but we've been going around and around in circles over this for over a year, and, my friend, you still have learned nothing, it seems.
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2010, 06:45:59 PM »

how many times are we going to go around about this?

Every time the matter comes up probably. It had occurred to me also (great minds thinking alike, perhaps) that this is a circle we have gone round several times before. But the idea of Protestant innovations has not been discussed whilst I've been participating, and I was quite genuine in writing that I did not know what y'all had in mind.

Quote
Why should we place ANY value whatsoever in your opinion ... why should YOU place any value in your opinion ...?

No reason at all. But it was of course not I who dreamed up these ideas. Rightly or wrongly they have been held by thousands and probably millions for some centuries. I think that this at least means they deserve serious and respectful consideration.

Quote
your faith is based ... not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring.

However, you are right: the thread is not about what Orthodox have added to the Faith (if anything) but about what Protestants have added (if anything). I shall humbly attempt to keep within the theme.

O filos sas,
DMY
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 06:50:09 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,725


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2010, 09:14:24 PM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 09:15:06 PM by LBK » Logged
yochanan
Arch-laity of the Room of Supreme Awesomeness
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (Catechumen)
Jurisdiction: OMHKSEA (Philippines)
Posts: 185


O majestic aurora, how seeming did He fashion you!


« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 10:26:37 PM »

What has been added by the Protestants you ask?

Well, its the mentality and the philosophy that we have to think for ourselves fully, that it is our personal belief that is important. That it does not matter what others may say. "What matters is my faith!" -- And that, I believe, is the greatest downfall of Protestant Christianity.

It is true that the Catholic Church (Roman) had some downfalls. And, yes, the Orthodox Church as well. But we must always remember that it is God whom we should trust: that it is through whom He has granted the message that we should trust. That it is His Apostles whom we should give high regard-- I believe (and I guess all of Orthodoxy and even of Catholicism) that we are unable to see for ourselves what is right-- that we need the help of both God and His Servants-- we donot follow by just getting a book and saying for ourselves what is right. NO!

If every man were to think of Christianity by himself every man would have his own church and not Christ's Church.-- But we are called to be one as the Father and Jesus is one -- one with each other.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2Pet. 1:20-21)
Logged

"It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15: 28)
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2010, 11:02:16 PM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
Yes, I would agree that there are few innovations in the Orthodox Church. But, I think that there may possibly be a few innovations from Apostolic times. For example, in Corinthians, it appears that women were to wear headcovering in Church. And the innovation of today in the modern era, is that women go to Church and attend the Divine Liturgy with their heads uncovered. 
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,009


"My god is greater."


« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2010, 11:08:35 PM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
Yes, I would agree that there are few innovations in the Orthodox Church. But, I think that there may possibly be a few innovations from Apostolic times. For example, in Corinthians, it appears that women were to wear headcovering in Church. And the innovation of today in the modern era, is that women go to Church and attend the Divine Liturgy with their heads uncovered. 

You'll find that women still do this in many Orthodox churches. It is especially expected at monasteries.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2010, 11:14:01 PM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
Yes, I would agree that there are few innovations in the Orthodox Church. But, I think that there may possibly be a few innovations from Apostolic times. For example, in Corinthians, it appears that women were to wear headcovering in Church. And the innovation of today in the modern era, is that women go to Church and attend the Divine Liturgy with their heads uncovered. 

You'll find that women still do this in many Orthodox churches. It is especially expected at monasteries.
I don;t think that it is universally observed in the USA.  Not at all.
Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2010, 11:18:42 PM »

How about Christian rock bands (mostly heavy metal) performing as part of services?   Huh

That'd be awesome to see. Profane, yes, and not worship, but awesome nonetheless. I can just see the little old ladies singing along to Mortification or something. But seriously, what Church do you know of that has heavy metal performed at their service?


Regarding the OP... well... um... that threw me for a loop, David. I guess, even though I was once a Protestant, I don't have much experience thinking from that perspective. Even when I was a Protestant, living on campus at a Protestant College, going to school as a Protestant Bible Studies major (briefly), I still came to realise that there were a number of ideas in Protestantism that were innovations, many of which have been mentioned (faith alone, scripture alone, etc.)  angel

Listened to the video and I have to say: Brother, you owe me 4 minutes of my life back :-) Although, the mischievous side would like to see the old ladies singing along....
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 7,009


"My god is greater."


« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2010, 11:51:22 PM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
Yes, I would agree that there are few innovations in the Orthodox Church. But, I think that there may possibly be a few innovations from Apostolic times. For example, in Corinthians, it appears that women were to wear headcovering in Church. And the innovation of today in the modern era, is that women go to Church and attend the Divine Liturgy with their heads uncovered. 

You'll find that women still do this in many Orthodox churches. It is especially expected at monasteries.
I don;t think that it is universally observed in the USA.  Not at all.

You're right, it's not universally observed. It differs according to jurisdiction too; I was at a ROCOR parish this week, and almost all of the women wore head coverings.

I wouldn't call this an Orthodox innovation, however- more like a contemporary lapse from traditional Orthodox practice.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2010, 12:58:48 AM »

GreekChef wrote:
Quote
not in the FAITH of the apostles as it was originally practiced,

to which I would add:
the faith which is, to this day, without interruption, practiced and proclaimed. This is the faith of the Orthodox Church.

David, I share GreekChef's frustration with your statements such as "Ah, but at least grant that that is what we are all desiring". Poster after poster to this forum has explained and pointed out to you, over so many threads, and over a great period of time, so much of the true, unadulterated, Apostolic faith, which is proclaimed and espoused by the Orthodox Church, and which can only be found in its fullness within her. We have given you copious scriptural, patristic, liturgical, historical, and practical examples of why this is so. Nothing added, nothing subtracted. Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?  Huh
Yes, I would agree that there are few innovations in the Orthodox Church. But, I think that there may possibly be a few innovations from Apostolic times. For example, in Corinthians, it appears that women were to wear headcovering in Church. And the innovation of today in the modern era, is that women go to Church and attend the Divine Liturgy with their heads uncovered. 

You'll find that women still do this in many Orthodox churches. It is especially expected at monasteries.
I don;t think that it is universally observed in the USA.  Not at all.

You're right, it's not universally observed. It differs according to jurisdiction too; I was at a ROCOR parish this week, and almost all of the women wore head coverings.

I wouldn't call this an Orthodox innovation, however- more like a contemporary lapse from traditional Orthodox practice.
But wait. Is it not an Orthodox innovation in the sense that some Orthodox Churches allow the practice today, whereas in the past it was not allowed according to Corinthians?
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,725


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2010, 01:17:14 AM »

Folks, headcoverings for women is not a matter of Orthodox doctrine and faith with the same importance as, say, the contents of the chalice being truly the body and blood of Christ vs the merely symbolic, or the act of Holy Communion being merely a "meal of remembrance".
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2010, 01:43:50 AM »

Folks, headcoverings for women is not a matter of Orthodox doctrine and faith with the same importance as, say, the contents of the chalice being truly the body and blood of Christ vs the merely symbolic, or the act of Holy Communion being merely a "meal of remembrance".
Yes, of course you are right here. However, is it an innovation of some sort from what was allowed in the early Church according to the New Testament?
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2010, 08:47:08 AM »

Folks, headcoverings for women is not a matter of Orthodox doctrine and faith with the same importance as, say, the contents of the chalice being truly the body and blood of Christ vs the merely symbolic, or the act of Holy Communion being merely a "meal of remembrance".
Yes, of course you are right here. However, is it an innovation of some sort from what was allowed in the early Church according to the New Testament?

Well, that quote is directed only to women that preach in the Church, not to all women.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2010, 10:09:30 AM »

Poster after poster to this forum has explained ... over so many threads, and over a great period of time

Is it at all possible to make this any clearer to you?

Part one of my quote from you is true, but is only part of the truth. Sadly, there are very few Protestants on the forum, even though the title (Orthodox-Protestant Discussion) might lead us all to hope for an approximately equal balance. I have tried to get people interested in participating, both in Britain and in Albania, but people are not interested in theological discussion forums, or are too busy with other activities, or have hardly heard of Orthodoxy and cannot imagine the relevance of such discussion.  Sad If there were an even balance between participants, the number of posts saying what I say and the number saying what you might would presumably more nearly balance each other out.

In re part 2 of my quote from you - the answer must be "No". You have made your views far clearer to me than they ever were before I was drawn into the forum, and I hope I have a much better informed and more positive appreciation of eastern Christianity than I ever had or suspected before.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2010, 10:27:01 AM »

its the mentality and the philosophy

...that it is our personal belief that is important. That it does not matter what others may say. "What matters is my faith!" ... by just getting a book and saying for ourselves what is right.

There are here two widely different matters. First, philosophy and mentality. You are right in saying that a wide difference exists between the mentality of eastern Christianity and western, and perhaps even wider between eastern Christianity and Evangelicalism. However, if we assume that the western approach to Christianity was largely established by Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas (easy to remember - three As), then you see why eastern and western are so different, even without moving as far forward in time as the Reformation. But I am not persuaded that Orthodox philosophy/mentality is right and western is wrong (or Evangelical is wrong, which perhaps arose in the 18th century - the Awakening, another A). They are different; I do not think that means that one is right and the other wrong.

The second part of my quote to you risks reproach for going round and round the same circle, and to risk that reproach would be rather temeritous. However, facing up to that risk, let me say again that this picture of Evangelicalism is not one I recognise as obtaining in the circles I have moved in over the last 40+ years - though of course it is true that one sometimes comes across odd or eccentric people who do think and act like that. Maybe it is (regrettably) more widespread in America?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 10:29:17 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2010, 11:43:35 AM »

its the mentality and the philosophy

...that it is our personal belief that is important. That it does not matter what others may say. "What matters is my faith!" ... by just getting a book and saying for ourselves what is right.

There are here two widely different matters. First, philosophy and mentality. You are right in saying that a wide difference exists between the mentality of eastern Christianity and western, and perhaps even wider between eastern Christianity and Evangelicalism. However, if we assume that the western approach to Christianity was largely established by Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas (easy to remember - three As), then you see why eastern and western are so different, even without moving as far forward in time as the Reformation. But I am not persuaded that Orthodox philosophy/mentality is right and western is wrong (or Evangelical is wrong, which perhaps arose in the 18th century - the Awakening, another A). They are different; I do not think that means that one is right and the other wrong.

Key words: "I am not persuaded."  This is exactly the mentality we've been talking about.  You are the arbiter and judge of your faith.  You choose what to believe-- shape your faith according to what is most comfortable for your worldview.  You take a little from this writer-- "oh that sounds wonderful!  He's right, I believe that too!"  You take a little from another writer-- "oh he's brilliant!  But I don't like this other little bit, so I won't accept that.  I don't believe that."  Soon you have a belief system and faith that is unique to David Young, comfortable for David Young, and ultimately, you recognize no authority outside of yourself to tell you that you are wrong.  The only authority you recognize is that of God, and His message to you is obscured by your own mind!


Quote
The second part of my quote to you risks reproach for going round and round the same circle, and to risk that reproach would be rather temeritous. However, facing up to that risk, let me say again that this picture of Evangelicalism is not one I recognise as obtaining in the circles I have moved in over the last 40+ years - though of course it is true that one sometimes comes across odd or eccentric people who do think and act like that. Maybe it is (regrettably) more widespread in America?
It is not one you recognize because you don't want to recognize it.  You don't want to see it.  And yet it is quite apparent in your own writings.  I'm sure you will jump to the defensive and say, "you misunderstand me."  But the fact of the matter is that in post after post, over the course of the last year, it has been apparent that this is the mentality you hold (though you may not yourself see it), and is, indeed, the mentality that Protestantism professes.

Further, it is difficult to accept such sentiments as "that is what we are all desiring" (with reference to the faith of the Apostles) when you have quite clearly placed your own interpretations of the faith and opinions above those of the early church fathers-- who were not only chronologically closer to Christ and the apostles, but whose teachings the ENTIRE body of the Church deemed good and true.  Your response thus far has been, "oh but I like some of what they say, but not everything."  Again, the same mentality-- your opinion is more important than that not only of the writer, but more importantly, than that of the Church who deemed the writing good!  And I'm sorry, but it does NO good to accept little bits and pieces here and there that fit comfortably into your own worldview yet leave aside such incredibly essential teachings as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (among others)! 

I would have to agree with Yochanan- the biggest innovation of Protestantism, and most dangerous one of all, is that mentality which says that there is no authority higher than my conscience, save God(whose words, message, and authority I alone can interpret).  The idea that no one can instruct me in my faith, save those who I have already deemed worthy because they profess the same world view that I do.  The idea that my personal faith is the only thing that matters... It is a big vicious circle that always leads back to oneself and one's own interpretation of the faith. 
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2010, 12:09:39 PM »

Part one of my quote from you is true, but is only part of the truth. Sadly, there are very few Protestants on the forum, even though the title (Orthodox-Protestant Discussion) might lead us all to hope for an approximately equal balance. I have tried to get people interested in participating, both in Britain and in Albania, but people are not interested in theological discussion forums, or are too busy with other activities, or have hardly heard of Orthodoxy and cannot imagine the relevance of such discussion.  Sad If there were an even balance between participants, the number of posts saying what I say and the number saying what you might would presumably more nearly balance each other out.

You know, I was just struck by this all of a sudden.  You say this kind of thing all the time, as though it is our fault.  Admittedly, we should be evangelizing more, of course.  But, how do you explain the fact that Catholics are WIDELY aware of our presence?  From my understanding and experience (my mother was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc), Church history and the existence and beliefs of Orthodoxy are widely taught in Catholic seminaries and in Catholic Sunday Schools and Catechism classes.  Of course, it's not true of EVERY Catholic Sunday School, but they are much more broadly aware of us.  This is evidenced also by the strong Catholic presence on this forum.  It is also evidenced by the strong Ecumenical movement (which is a topic for another thread, should anyone feel the need to attack this statement) between the Orthodox and Catholic churches.

Could it be, instead, that the responsibility lies with the Protestant churches?  The Catholics are, generally, fairly well educated in Orthodoxy.  Orthodox are, generally, aware of and educated on at least a very basic level in the faith of Catholics and Protestants.  Maybe the Protestant churches should start teaching church history.  My experience has been that Protestants skip everything between Acts and the Reformation.  Why?  Why haven't they thought, "hmmmm... I wonder what happened in those 1500 years?"  Why haven't they gone to a bookstore and bought a book on church history?  It's not as though they're not available.  If books are really that hard to come by, we have these wonderful things called computers now, too.

And when the DO mention Orthodoxy or Catholicism, it's only to teach that we're not Christian, pagans, Canibals, etc.  Take your pick.  Obviously, this is not only wrong, but disingenuous and academically dishonest.  This comes from one, who, by the way, spent years of my youth in the Episcopal church, half of my family is Southern Baptist, and of course, I live in the Bible belt, with Protestant friends who have dragged me to their Church functions for years in order to convert their heathen friend.

Sorry, I couldn't let this one slide anymore.  It just really irks me.  Smiley
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,834


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2010, 12:54:11 PM »

You say this kind of thing all the time, as though it is our fault. 

No I don't. I never suggested it was your fault, nor anyone else's, other than confessing my own failure at attracting people to it.

Quote
I couldn't let this one slide anymore.  It just really irks me. 

So I gather. Such was not my intention. I am abashed. Imagine me in spirit with you in church on 14th February.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Mivac
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 247


« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2010, 01:27:59 PM »

You say this kind of thing all the time, as though it is our fault.  

No I don't. I never suggested it was your fault, nor anyone else's, other than confessing my own failure at attracting people to it.

Quote
I couldn't let this one slide anymore.  It just really irks me.

So I gather. Such was not my intention. I am abashed. Imagine me in spirit with you in church on 14th February.

David, I know you have a large circle of influence and travel to many different denominations to teach.  I read your input and see myself, but without the vast travels and credentials being just a leader/teacher at my former baptist church.  Lord have mercy.  My heart aches and cries out to the Lord, that you and all of us who call themselves Christian would be One.  

Love you and praying for you.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 01:29:40 PM by Mivac » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 72 queries.