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Author Topic: Lord, They say you are not in the Catholic Sacraments ¿What do you say?  (Read 13904 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 22, 2010, 02:54:09 AM »

If you want to see it in real time this is the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91J0VCDewb0


This extraordinary miracle happened in Lourdes

Just during asking  the almighty Father to Santify the species by his Holy Spirit, to convert into Our Lord Jesus body (flesh)

A visible Epiclesis, as real as those not visible.


We pray yo to Sanctify this...



...By your Spirit  ( the Host convex at a jump)




Thanks Lord for answering,

Closer:





If you want to see it in real time this is the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91J0VCDewb0

If you want to see it in real time this is the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91J0VCDewb0

If you want to see it in real time this is the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91J0VCDewb0
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 02:59:04 AM »

Closer Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcCHiI4KggA
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 04:04:40 AM »

I don't see anything. What am I missing?
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 04:50:16 AM »


I don't see anything. What am I missing?

In the original video the wafer appears to move at about 0:38.
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 04:51:10 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 06:17:14 AM »


I don't see anything. What am I missing?

In the original video the wafer appears to move at about 0:38.

Ahh, I see. Maybe the first time through I thought that was just a hitch in the video due to poor quality or something. I guess I was looking for the wafer to get up and start dancing and singing a Frank Sinatra song or something. angel
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 09:23:11 AM »


I don't see anything. What am I missing?

In the original video the wafer appears to move at about 0:38.

Ahh, I see. Maybe the first time through I thought that was just a hitch in the video due to poor quality or something. I guess I was looking for the wafer to get up and start dancing and singing a Frank Sinatra song or something. angel
I'd go with the poor quality: doesn't seem like the priests noticed anything.  And although it looked large, it still seeme to be those paper thin wafers they use: the billowing of those large sleaves.....

I remember someone either here or on CAF posted a video from Brazil I think, where they all danced in a circle and then the priest took the monstrans and they danced around it.

I personally think (as opposed to believe) that their wafers are Christ after consecration, but I'm hardly impressed here.
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 10:40:02 AM »

Be aware of not being hardening your hearts. Don't you be fighting against God.

Ex 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 7:22, 8:11, 8:15, 8:28, 9:7, 9:12, 9:34-35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17 etc.

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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 10:46:02 AM »

Be aware of not being hardening your hearts. Don't you be fighting against God.
Ex 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 7:22, 8:11, 8:15, 8:28, 9:7, 9:12, 9:34-35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17 etc.

According to the verses you quoted, it would be God hardening my heart...
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 10:47:06 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
Oh yes, all Christians in the west were suddenly denied the life giving Body and Blood of Christ just because of some squabble between a Cardinal and a Patriarch. EO sacramental theology makes no sense.
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 10:49:03 AM »

Be aware of not being hardening your hearts. Don't you be fighting against God.

Ex 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 7:22, 8:11, 8:15, 8:28, 9:7, 9:12, 9:34-35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17 etc.



The canons of the Church outrank miracles.
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 10:50:41 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
Oh yes, all Christians in the west were suddenly denied the life giving Body and Blood of Christ just because of some squabble between a Cardinal and a Patriarch. EO sacramental theology makes no sense.

Any more than your sacramental theology that says the Body of Christ can exist wherever someone who has "valid apostolic succession" exists, thus ensuring that schismatics can perpetually blaspheme against God and condemn their souls to hell every time they celebrate the Liturgy? Holy Communion is a mystery OF the Church, and exists IN the Church, for those with Orthodox faith; otherwise it really just is "hocus pocus."

No one says Roman Catholics lost sacramental grace in 1054. It was a gradual process. But you already knew that (it just doesn't sound as snarky as saying what you did).
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 10:54:40 AM »

Be aware of not being hardening your hearts. Don't you be fighting against God.

Ex 4:21, 7:3, 7:13, 7:22, 8:11, 8:15, 8:28, 9:7, 9:12, 9:34-35, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17 etc.



The canons of the Church outrank miracles.
let alone pseudomiracles.  Only an evil generation seeks a sign....
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 10:59:17 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
Oh yes, all Christians in the west were suddenly denied the life giving Body and Blood of Christ just because of some squabble between a Cardinal and a Patriarch. EO sacramental theology makes no sense.

Any more than your sacramental theology that says the Body of Christ can exist wherever someone who has "valid apostolic succession" exists, thus ensuring that schismatics can perpetually blaspheme against God and condemn their souls to hell every time they celebrate the Liturgy? Holy Communion is a mystery OF the Church, and exists IN the Church, for those with Orthodox faith; otherwise it really just is "hocus pocus."

No one says Roman Catholics lost sacramental grace in 1054. It was a gradual process. But you already knew that (it just doesn't sound as snarky as saying what you did).
Your mischaracterization of the Catholic view of Apostolic succession is just silly. Catholic don't believe that anybody who happens to be prayed over by a bishop suddenly becomes a priest. That is why even though some Anglicans who have received orders through the "Old Catholic" line are not considered valid priests. There has to be a reasonable adherence to the Apostolic faith as well as the intention to "do what the Church does" when ordaining and the is includes preparing some one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 11:09:29 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
Oh yes, all Christians in the west were suddenly denied the life giving Body and Blood of Christ just because of some squabble between a Cardinal and a Patriarch. EO sacramental theology makes no sense.

Any more than your sacramental theology that says the Body of Christ can exist wherever someone who has "valid apostolic succession" exists, thus ensuring that schismatics can perpetually blaspheme against God and condemn their souls to hell every time they celebrate the Liturgy? Holy Communion is a mystery OF the Church, and exists IN the Church, for those with Orthodox faith; otherwise it really just is "hocus pocus."

No one says Roman Catholics lost sacramental grace in 1054. It was a gradual process. But you already knew that (it just doesn't sound as snarky as saying what you did).
Your mischaracterization of the Catholic view of Apostolic succession is just silly. Catholic don't believe that anybody who happens to be prayed over by a bishop suddenly becomes a priest. That is why even though some Anglicans who have received orders through the "Old Catholic" line are not considered valid priests. There has to be a reasonable adherence to the Apostolic faith as well as the intention to "do what the Church does" when ordaining and the is includes preparing some one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
Unlike what the Vatican holds, most Orthodox do not hold that the defrocked are "priests forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  Hence Father's position.
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 11:15:13 AM »

You think the devil is not capable of performing such signs?
Oh yes, all Christians in the west were suddenly denied the life giving Body and Blood of Christ just because of some squabble between a Cardinal and a Patriarch. EO sacramental theology makes no sense.

Any more than your sacramental theology that says the Body of Christ can exist wherever someone who has "valid apostolic succession" exists, thus ensuring that schismatics can perpetually blaspheme against God and condemn their souls to hell every time they celebrate the Liturgy? Holy Communion is a mystery OF the Church, and exists IN the Church, for those with Orthodox faith; otherwise it really just is "hocus pocus."

No one says Roman Catholics lost sacramental grace in 1054. It was a gradual process. But you already knew that (it just doesn't sound as snarky as saying what you did).
Your mischaracterization of the Catholic view of Apostolic succession is just silly. Catholic don't believe that anybody who happens to be prayed over by a bishop suddenly becomes a priest. That is why even though some Anglicans who have received orders through the "Old Catholic" line are not considered valid priests. There has to be a reasonable adherence to the Apostolic faith as well as the intention to "do what the Church does" when ordaining and the is includes preparing some one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
Unlike what the Vatican holds, most Orthodox do not hold that the defrocked are "priests forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  Hence Father's position.
I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 11:31:08 AM »

What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.

So, let's say that there is a Roman Catholic bishop. Now let's say that he began to teach something that was obviously heretical--for example, that there was a time when Jesus Christ was not, as Arius taught. Would the sacraments be without grace in his Church? Or would grace linger for a bit? Or would he always have grace in the sacraments?
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 11:42:44 AM »

I remember someone either here or on CAF posted a video from Brazil I think, where they all danced in a circle and then the priest took the monstrans and they danced around it.

That would be the infamous Danza Liturgica wherein their "Jesus" gets up and dances with assistance at about the 2:30 minute mark of the video.

See it in all its splendor here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE

I'll now sit back and wait for Papist to chime in with his usual nonsense about how this is an isolated event that few Catholics participate in (despite the Catholic Charismatic Renewal - sponsors of this event - having millions of adherents worldwide).  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 11:48:40 AM »

I remember someone either here or on CAF posted a video from Brazil I think, where they all danced in a circle and then the priest took the monstrans and they danced around it.

That would be the infamous Danza Liturgica wherein their "Jesus" gets up and dances with assistance at about the 2:30 minute mark of the video.

See it in all its splendor here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE

I'll now sit back and wait for Papist to chime in with his usual nonsense about how this is an isolated event that few Catholics participate in (despite the Catholic Charismatic Renewal - sponsors of this event - having millions of adherents worldwide).  Wink

HERACLEIDES! WHERE YOU BEEN? Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 11:57:01 AM »


Your mischaracterization of the Catholic view of Apostolic succession is just silly. Catholic don't believe that anybody who happens to be prayed over by a bishop suddenly becomes a priest. That is why even though some Anglicans who have received orders through the "Old Catholic" line are not considered valid priests. There has to be a reasonable adherence to the Apostolic faith as well as the intention to "do what the Church does" when ordaining and the is includes preparing some one to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.

I haven't mischaracterized the Roman Catholic position at all, and I never said anyone that is prayed over automatically becomes a priest. I know what your theologians say is necessary. Valid intent, valid matter, valid minister, etc.  Not everyone has the intent part, but enough schismatics do to make your position untenable.

Anglicans who have ordination from Old Catholic bishops DO have apostolic succession according to what I know of your Church and its practice, but the problem is that it can't be sorted out because the co-consecrator might have been an Anglican, or there might be situations were one was ordained a priest by an Anglican and a bishop by an Old Catholic, etc.  That is why your Church sometimes ordains these people sub conditione, because they know they might already be priests. The issue is sorting it out, not that they are per se not already priests.

I did not say that grace magically disappears from the Church, either. What happens is that as bishops break from the Church, they first are considered parasynagogues, then schismatics, then gradually as heretics if they introduce new doctrines. The Roman Catholic Church did not leave the Church of Christ instantly in 1054 but the break was gradual; hence, the grace of the Holy Spirit departed gradually. The records are not totally clear in all cases when communion was broken, but it was most certainly broken by 1204.
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 12:02:32 PM »


I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.

I am sure you are familiar with the Council of Nicea's canon about the reception of Cathars.  Notice how they could be received as bishops or as priests. We say this demonstrates that they are outside the Church but they can be accepted economically as the Church deems necessary.  Your theologians would say that they are always bishops, but the Church took away their power to exercise the episcopacy.  It is "Latent" or "dormant" (which was the solution to deal with the problem of the secret married bishops in the Czech Republic during Communism who were turned in to Byzantine Catholic priests).

 In fact, your Church even seems to teach that all priests have the power of episcopacy, but that it has to be "activated" by the episcopal ordination prayers, except of course if the Pope allows it, which is why he allowed a priest to ordain another priest in the 13th century (cf. Primacy of Peter by Schmmemann, et al that documents this).  So who has the weird position:

1) The people that say that ordinations only happen IN the Church
2) The people that say ordinations can happen OUTSIDE the Church and that in fact, those holding one level of ordination actually can have that power of another level of ordination "suppressed" or "activated" by fiat of the Pope at will regardless of what prayers were prayed sacramentally over them?
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 12:25:46 PM »

What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
'Magically?'

Who said that, other than you?

I see someone has already noted it was a gradual process.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2010, 12:28:02 PM »

they first are considered parasynagogues, then schismatics

I'm having some trouble grasping the distinction here.  Would you please explain?
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2010, 12:32:00 PM »


I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.

I am sure you are familiar with the Council of Nicea's canon about the reception of Cathars.  Notice how they could be received as bishops or as priests. We say this demonstrates that they are outside the Church but they can be accepted economically as the Church deems necessary.  Your theologians would say that they are always bishops, but the Church took away their power to exercise the episcopacy.  It is "Latent" or "dormant" (which was the solution to deal with the problem of the secret married bishops in the Czech Republic during Communism who were turned in to Byzantine Catholic priests).

 In fact, your Church even seems to teach that all priests have the power of episcopacy, but that it has to be "activated" by the episcopal ordination prayers, except of course if the Pope allows it, which is why he allowed a priest to ordain another priest in the 13th century (cf. Primacy of Peter by Schmmemann, et al that documents this).  So who has the weird position:

1) The people that say that ordinations only happen IN the Church
2) The people that say ordinations can happen OUTSIDE the Church and that in fact, those holding one level of ordination actually can have that power of another level of ordination "suppressed" or "activated" by fiat of the Pope at will regardless of what prayers were prayed sacramentally over them?
No. They can occur outside the Church IF, the person recieving and administering the sacrament professes the Nicene faith and both intend to do what the Church does. This applies to schims in which the difference between Churches is not so much that a one group is denying the Nicene faith. This is why Eastern Orthdox and Oriental Orthodox Christians have valid orders. I believe that in a sense, they profess the substance of the Catholic faith or at least the true substance of their faith is not inconsistent with the substance of the Catholic faith. Apostolic successin doesn't happen willy nilly for anyone who happens to have had the right prayers prayed over them. Its not magic.
As for the Pope or a Bishop suppressing a persons orders, yes the indelible mark on the clerics soul is not removed, only their authority to exercise it. This doesn't bother me at all in light of the idea of "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven."

What is really weird to me is that idea that suddenly all the western Christians peasants who may have never even heard of the Patriarch of Constantinople were suddenly denied the Body and Blood of the Lord whom they loved. What I find unbelievalbe is that men and women who loved Jesus Christ as much as St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila did, were worshiping and receiving bread and wine and not Jesus Christ. Such profound spiritual growth seen in persons like St. John Viani or St. Padre Pio, would be impossible with "false and graceless sacraments". I think the EO position has to ignore the reality.
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2010, 12:32:47 PM »

What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
'Magically?'

Who said that, other than you?

I see someone has already noted it was a gradual process.
How do sacraments "gradually" become fake. That is absurd.
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 12:46:50 PM »


No. They can occur outside the Church IF, the person recieving and administering the sacrament professes the Nicene faith and both intend to do what the Church does. This applies to schims in which the difference between Churches is not so much that a one group is denying the Nicene faith. This is why Eastern Orthdox and Oriental Orthodox Christians have valid orders. I believe that in a sense, they profess the substance of the Catholic faith or at least the true substance of their faith is not inconsistent with the substance of the Catholic faith. Apostolic successin doesn't happen willy nilly for anyone who happens to have had the right prayers prayed over them. Its not magic.
As for the Pope or a Bishop suppressing a persons orders, yes the indelible mark on the clerics soul is not removed, only their authority to exercise it. This doesn't bother me at all in light of the idea of "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven."

Why is the Nicene Faith (whatever that is) the yardstick?  This talk of a common substance and the like is a reduction to a common denominator that we cannot agree with.  It's all or nothing. Your Church was condemned by the Orthodox Church multiple times in history in Council and Encyclicals of the Patriarchs. It's not a "trivial difference."

Apostolic succession may not happen willy nilly according to your self-created definition, but, from an Orthodox perspective, the idea that people who have been separated for hundreds of years and have developed different faiths can have the same Christ (who is not divided) and same sacraments is magical thinking.

Suppressing an indelible mark is one argument (I think it's wrong too) but the idea that a person who is a priest can ordain another because the Pope told him to is a much bigger problem. Do you agree that all priests are bishops without the "key" being unlocked?

Quote
What is really weird to me is that idea that suddenly all the western Christians peasants who may have never even heard of the Patriarch of Constantinople were suddenly denied the Body and Blood of the Lord whom they loved. What I find unbelievalbe is that men and women who loved Jesus Christ as much as St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila did, were worshiping and receiving bread and wine and not Jesus Christ. Such profound spiritual growth seen in persons like St. John Viani or St. Padre Pio, would be impossible with "false and graceless sacraments". I think the EO position has to ignore the reality.

You say the same thing about Anglicans, though.
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 12:48:17 PM »


I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.

I am sure you are familiar with the Council of Nicea's canon about the reception of Cathars.  Notice how they could be received as bishops or as priests. We say this demonstrates that they are outside the Church but they can be accepted economically as the Church deems necessary.  Your theologians would say that they are always bishops, but the Church took away their power to exercise the episcopacy.  It is "Latent" or "dormant" (which was the solution to deal with the problem of the secret married bishops in the Czech Republic during Communism who were turned in to Byzantine Catholic priests).

 In fact, your Church even seems to teach that all priests have the power of episcopacy, but that it has to be "activated" by the episcopal ordination prayers, except of course if the Pope allows it, which is why he allowed a priest to ordain another priest in the 13th century (cf. Primacy of Peter by Schmmemann, et al that documents this).  So who has the weird position:

1) The people that say that ordinations only happen IN the Church
2) The people that say ordinations can happen OUTSIDE the Church and that in fact, those holding one level of ordination actually can have that power of another level of ordination "suppressed" or "activated" by fiat of the Pope at will regardless of what prayers were prayed sacramentally over them?
No. They can occur outside the Church IF, the person recieving and administering the sacrament professes the Nicene faith and both intend to do what the Church does. This applies to schims in which the difference between Churches is not so much that a one group is denying the Nicene faith. This is why Eastern Orthdox and Oriental Orthodox Christians have valid orders. I believe that in a sense, they profess the substance of the Catholic faith or at least the true substance of their faith is not inconsistent with the substance of the Catholic faith. Apostolic successin doesn't happen willy nilly for anyone who happens to have had the right prayers prayed over them. Its not magic.
As for the Pope or a Bishop suppressing a persons orders, yes the indelible mark on the clerics soul is not removed, only their authority to exercise it. This doesn't bother me at all in light of the idea of "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven."

What is really weird to me is that idea that suddenly all the western Christians peasants who may have never even heard of the Patriarch of Constantinople were suddenly denied the Body and Blood of the Lord whom they loved. What I find unbelievalbe is that men and women who loved Jesus Christ as much as St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila did, were worshiping and receiving bread and wine and not Jesus Christ. Such profound spiritual growth seen in persons like St. John Viani or St. Padre Pio, would be impossible with "false and graceless sacraments". I think the EO position has to ignore the reality.
Just because a reality is painful doesn't nullify it as reality.  Not that I am saying that all those peasants were now deprived, just saying that the Truth is indifferent to how I feel about it.

The problem with such "proof" is that Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists bring forth their "proof."
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 12:49:54 PM »

What is hocus pocus is to say that grace magically disappeared from my Church.
'Magically?'

Who said that, other than you?

I see someone has already noted it was a gradual process.
How do sacraments "gradually" become fake. That is absurd.


Individual cases are either yes or no. It's either the body of Christ or it's not. But what is gradual is the discernment of the Church as to when it has happened in another Church.  One piece of evidence is the acceleration of unorthodox doctrines and decrease in Orthodox praxis (such as what happened in the West with increasing frequency after the schism). But the patriarchates broke communion with Rome individually as they became convinced Rome was heretical.  Roman practices may not have completely infiltrated the highlands of Scotland immediately though. That is what we say is gradual. Not that there are half-sacraments, but that all the bishops under Rome instantly agreed with its schism, and introduced all of its innovations instantly, and as such lost grace instantly.  Instead, Rome enforced these things and as it did, the episcopacy and the Church died out in the West.
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 12:52:11 PM »

they first are considered parasynagogues, then schismatics

I'm having some trouble grasping the distinction here.  Would you please explain?

St Basil makes a distinction in his First Canonical Epistle between divisions "IN" the Church (parasynagogue) and divisions "FROM" the Church (schism).  The former group of people would still be Orthodox but in an irregular situation (and the leaders guilty of some personal sin of disobedience).
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 12:56:53 PM »



What is really weird to me is that idea that suddenly all the western Christians peasants who may have never even heard of the Patriarch of Constantinople were suddenly denied the Body and Blood of the Lord whom they loved. What I find unbelievalbe is that men and women who loved Jesus Christ as much as St. John of the Cross or St. Teresa of Avila did, were worshiping and receiving bread and wine and not Jesus Christ. Such profound spiritual growth seen in persons like St. John Viani or St. Padre Pio, would be impossible with "false and graceless sacraments". I think the EO position has to ignore the reality.

I agree. But are you willing to extend that argument to the Anglican Church? What about early Lutherans? What about Calvinists and all of their manifestations?
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 01:01:33 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 01:02:58 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).

But didn't Jesus appear to the Native Americans in the book of Mormon?  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 01:16:08 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).

Awesome, I'm ignorant! There is Hope!  Grin
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 01:44:47 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).
So you see no difference between the grace recieved by a Trinitarian Christian that is not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the grace received by a pagan?
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2010, 01:45:32 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).

Awesome, I'm ignorant! There is Hope!  Grin
Doesn't Change the fact that you and I are heretics with "fake" sacraments.   Wink
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2010, 03:04:14 PM »

Dear Alfonso  and Papist,

I believe you both say that the Orthodox are outside the Church and need to return. Since it is the teaching of the Church in her Ecumenical Councils that those outside the Church do not have valid sacraments the logical conclusion is that either you or we cannot have valid sacraments.  Sacraments exist only in the true Church.

We can see this teaching from Saint Basil the Great ...this is in the 4th century, after the Church had emerged from its 300 long years of persecution under the Roman Empire.  His teaching was later incorporated into the canon law of the Catholic Church at an Ecumenical Council.

(Notice the typical balance of the Church Fathers - while the principle of no Sacraments and no Apostolic Succession outside the Church is clearly enunciated, Saint Basil alsostates very clearly that for the sake of the good of the Church "economy" may beused if it is thought necessary in the case of Baptism.)


Epistle to Amphilochius (of which the "First Canon" of Saint Basil is a shorter
version)

---- "It seemed best to the ancients-I refer to Cyprian and our own
Firmilian-to subject all of these (Cathari, and Encratites, and Hydroparastatae)
to one vote of condemnation, because the beginning of this separation arose
through schism, and those who had broken away from the Church no longer had in
them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the imparting of it failed because of the
severance of continuity.

"For those who separated first had ordination from the Fathers, and
through the imposition of their hands possessed the spiritual gift; but those
who had been cut off, becoming laymen, possessed the power neither of baptizing
nor of ordaining, being able no longer to impart to others the grace of the Holy
Spirit from which they themselves had fallen away. Therefore they commanded
those who had been baptized by them, as baptized by laymen, to come to the
Church and be purified by the true baptism of the Church.


"But since on the whole it has seemed best to some of those in Asia
that, by economy for the sake of the many, their baptism be accepted, let it be
accepted."
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2010, 03:19:30 PM »

I would like to reemphasize what I have said numerous times on this site, though; while I do not believe that sacramental grace exists outside the Church, I believe there is charismatic grace, and that God does not abandon ignorant people who have done nothing positive to break communion with the Church. (Nor do I think a loving God would create Native Americans from 33AD until the 1500's knowing they would all die without baptism and go to hell; there must be some provision for such people).
So you see no difference between the grace recieved by a Trinitarian Christian that is not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the grace received by a pagan?

Since grace is the uncreated energies of God, I see no difference in grace, since it is not a thing.  However, I believe the through-no-fault-of-his-own heterodox would have more aptitude to receive this grace due to his faith in Christ and attempts to live a Christian life. To be clear, we are firmly in the realm of my opinion at this point. I believe this is beyond revelation, but am commenting on my observations.
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2010, 03:20:44 PM »

Unlike what the Vatican holds, most Orthodox do not hold that the defrocked are "priests forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  Hence Father's position.
I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.

Father Anastasios' position is the ancient and true theological position of the Church.  It is just unusual for you to have it applied against you!

The question boils down to - do bishops exist outside the Church and out of communion with the Church?.  I believe that the episcopate -the College of the Apostles- cannot exist outside the Church.  Without the episcopate there can be no Sacraments.  Do you know the writings of Fr Justin Popovich? - I tend to be a follower of his.

Now, I know that this is a harsh saying for a Roman Catholic to hear (about as harsh as when the Anglicans are told much the same about the invalidity of their Orders by Catholics.)  

BUT, on the other hand, we have to be honest and tell you that you will find Orthodox who accept the "validity" of the Roman Catholic episcopate and the Sacraments which flow from it.   Saint Philaret Metropolitan of Moscow is of this opinion.  Here are his words http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13419.msg185558.html#msg185558

In fact for the last 400 years the Church of Russia has accepted the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments.  

BUT... ... on the other hand we find that in the 1980s at one of the Meetings of the Catholic-Orthodox International Theological Dialogue that the Orthodox bishops and theologians (including the Russian delegates) refused to recognise Catholic baptism per se.   A rejection of Catholic baptism obviously entails a fundamental rejection of all Catholic Sacraments.

How do we deal with this dichotomy? - some say Catholics have sacraments, some say they do not.   I suppose the best we can say it that the Orthodox do not know if Catholics have sacraments.  We could look at this little anecdote about Anglican baptism to get a handle on this Orthodox agnosticism......

There is an incident in the UK recorded by the Archbishop of Canterbury himself
(Lord Runcie if I remember) in an issue of "Eastern Churches Quarterly."

At a meeting in England of Anglican and Russian Orthodox bishops, the Anglicans
asked at supper: "Do you believe we are baptized?" The Orthodox asked to have
the night to think about it. At breakfast in the morning the Anglicans asked: "So,
what do you think? Are we baptized?" The Orthodox replied, "We do not know."


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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2010, 03:33:48 PM »

I only see hard hearts, not matter the facts I bring to you as Moses did, most here behave as Pharaoh did.

The Epiclesis that is visible in the video is something that goes further the understanding of those who like the pharisees say ..."Do you say that we are blind?"...  John 9:38-41

38 He said, "I do believe, Lord," and he worshiped him.
39 Then Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind."
40 Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, "Surely we are not also blind, are we?"
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, 'We see,' so your sin remains.


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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 03:34:08 PM »

^We're quite fine Alonso. Why do you care what we say? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2010, 03:36:32 PM »

Unlike what the Vatican holds, most Orthodox do not hold that the defrocked are "priests forever according to the order of Melchizedek."  Hence Father's position.
I know. Its a weird position that Father has. Very weird indeed.

Father Anastasios' position is the ancient and true theological position of the Church.  It is just unusual for you to have it applied against you!

The question boils down to - do bishops exist outside the Church and out of communion with the Church?.  I believe that the episcopate -the College of the Apostles- cannot exist outside the Church.  Without the episcopate there can be no Sacraments.  Do you know the writings of Fr Justin Popovich? - I tend to be a follower of his.

Now, I know that this is a harsh saying for a Roman Catholic to hear (about as harsh as when the Anglicans are told much the same about the invalidity of their Orders by Catholics.) 

BUT, on the other hand, we have to be honest and tell you that you will find Orthodox who accept the "validity" of the Roman Catholic episcopate and the Sacraments which flow from it.   Saint Philaret Metropolitan of Moscow is of this opinion.  Here are his words http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13419.msg185558.html#msg185558

In fact for the last 400 years the Church of Russia has accepted the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments. 

BUT... ... on the other hand we find that in the 1980s at one of the Meetings of the Catholic-Orthodox International Theological Dialogue that the Orthodox bishops and theologians (including the Russian delegates) refused to recognise Catholic baptism per se.   A rejection of Catholic baptism obviously entails a fundamental rejection of all Catholic Sacraments.

How do we deal with this dichotomy? - some say Catholics have sacraments, some say they do not.   I suppose the best we can say it that the Orthodox do not know if Catholics have sacraments.  We could look at this little anecdote about Anglican baptism to get a handle on this Orthodox agnosticism......

There is an incident in the UK recorded by the Archbishop of Canterbury himself
(Lord Runcie if I remember) in an issue of "Eastern Churches Quarterly."

At a meeting in England of Anglican and Russian Orthodox bishops, the Anglicans
asked at supper: "Do you believe we are baptized?" The Orthodox asked to have
the night to think about it. At breakfast in the morning the Anglicans asked: "So,
what do you think? Are we baptized?" The Orthodox replied, "We do not know."



^I have to say, for being the "true church," they do worry so about what we think of their sacraments.
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2010, 03:39:03 PM »

Alonso, you are the one with the hard heart.

Your Church could never cure me of my sins, despite years of confession to your priests and reception of your sacraments.  But from the time of my baptism in the Orthodox Church, I have experienced what new life is, have grown in the love of Christ, and have experienced grace in a way that was absent previously. Doctrine trumps my personal testimony, but since you are accusing us of being heartless, I will offer my testimony. Orthodoxy is life.
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 03:46:26 PM »

Dear Alonso,

I don't want to misrepresent you.....  you believe that the Orthodox are heretics?  you belive that our sacraments are invalid?

If that is what you believe, do not feel inhibited about saying so plainly.  We all appreciate honesty.
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 04:00:28 PM »

Alonso, you are the one with the hard heart.

Your Church could never cure me of my sins, despite years of confession to your priests and reception of your sacraments.  But from the time of my baptism in the Orthodox Church, I have experienced what new life is, have grown in the love of Christ, and have experienced grace in a way that was absent previously. Doctrine trumps my personal testimony, but since you are accusing us of being heartless, I will offer my testimony. Orthodoxy is life.
Sounds like you just weren't that interested in transformation when you were a Catholic. I have countless friends who have turned to Jesus Christ in Catholic Chruch and transformed their lives. I see a myriad of Catholic Saints who done the same and more. I will offer you my testimony. Catholicism is life.
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2010, 04:43:10 PM »

Dear Alonso,

I don't want to misrepresent you.....  you believe that the Orthodox are heretics?  you belive that our sacraments are invalid?

If that is what you believe, do not feel inhibited about saying so plainly.  We all appreciate honesty.

This is curious. In the entire thread, it's the Orthodox party saying that Catholics don't have sacramental grace, not the other way around. Catholics call you schismatics, not heretics. Well, until you don't let you contamined by Protestantism (which seems a possibility, since too many Orthodox have begun rejecting the Deuterocanonical books as uninspired, or embracing a "Scripture first" logic when trying to disprove Purgatory and other Catholic doctrines).

As for me, I don't think the vid implies a miracle. God doesn't like to appear in the media.
Catholics have fulness of grace, and so Orthodoxy does. Grace comes from our Lord Jesus Christ through his sacraments. As I didn't think - when I was travelling towards Orthodoxy - that 1.14 billion Catholics worldwide had lost sacramental grace, so I still don't from the other side, now that I've returned to Roman Catholicism: those 250 million Eastern Orthodox and some million Oriental Christians haven't lost sacramental grace which comes from apostolic succession. Yes, I believe in the necessity of apostolic succession. You can't give what you haven't: the Holy Spirit can be given only through the episcopacy through the laying on of hands at Chrismation and Holy Orders, and without a valid episcopacy there's no Holy Spirit, and thus no sacramental grace. Protestant baptisms provide only a limited, extra-ordinary grace, and only to those who receive it according to the teachings of the Church (i.e. an actual restoration by grace of our lost perfect humanity). But the fullness of the Spirit isn't in them.

That's my opinion, of course.

In Christ,    Alex
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