Author Topic: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)  (Read 97241 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2010, 03:08:49 AM »
Many of the most recent posts on this thread have become somewhat personal and/or irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Knock it off and get back on topic. For those who may have forgotten what the topic is, please refer to this thread's title.

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 03:28:43 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2010, 07:45:52 PM »
Many of the most recent posts on this thread have become somewhat personal and/or irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Knock it off and get back on topic. For those who may have forgotten what the topic is, please refer to this thread's title.

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Agree completely!
Please allow me one comment not directed at the author of recent messages but for the education of others in relation to speculation about Serbian Patriarchate having maintained fidelity to what it received from Constantinople while the Old Rite was a distortion.
The Serbian Patriarchate, as anyone can read from history, has suffered perhaps more than any other jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church! After her Glorious rise in the Middle Ages she fell under severe persecution from the Ottoman Turks only to rise again in 1577 after having thoroughly submitted to Ottoman rule and interference in Church governance. In 1766 the Serbian Patriarchate was again abolished and a period of direct rule by the Phanar commenced and lasted several generations with even the local bishops being Greeks of the Patriarchate of Constantinople! For several hundred years the Serbs were an oppressed nation of Orthodox Slavs with Catholic Croats to their West, Albanian Muslims fiercely loyal to the Sultan to the immediate South, and the power of the Catholic Habsburg to the North and North-West.
It is nearly impossible to imagine that being directly subject to the Patriarchate of Constantinople spiritually and the Ottoman Turks in the world that the Serbs could've ever successfully completely resisted the successive liturgical reforms of Constantinople as well as the liturgical influences exerted from the Catholics. However to this day the Serbs maintain various traditions that survive to this day which such as celebrating Vaskrs (Pascha) Liturgy in the morning after sunrise and the growing of wheat grass in small bowl or vase from the Feast of St.Barbara or St.Nikola (Nicholas) until the Nativity (Christmas).


http://www.musicarussica.com/discdet.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-response=discdet.lasso&-layout=CD_detail&-RecID=35745&-search

I just received this album in the mail today, and I absolutely love it! I really wish that Slavic parishes sounded like this versus the newer "concert" polyphony that many of them use (not that that cannot be beautiful as well). It just sounds so much closer to Byzantine chant in many ways, and seems to better match the monastic ethos and the aesthetics of the iconography than the more "choral" style (whatever it is officially called is beyond me).

Lenexa, if you don't have this, I should burn it off for you and we can meet up sometime. You can show me how the heck you're even supposed to the sign-of-the-cross that way.
I have a copy and I listen to it regularly. Nikita Simmons from http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/simmons.html was heavily involved in the production and it seems to have paid off! But what do I know? I have very little musical training and can't sing to save my life. Still I know I love it and listen to the Otche Nash and Dostoinno yEst from this CD almost every night. It has helped me to memorize prayers in Church Slavonic and call forth these prayers and the Znamenny Chant they are sung in very easily which can be helpful and comforting. I often quietly sing these prayers when walking as I can hear/remember the music/chant from the CD.
It is really easy to make the two-fingered Sign-of-the-Cross but I would be happy to help!

Offline Punch

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2010, 08:43:04 PM »
I didn't quote the previous post to save bandwidth.  Yes, I think that you hit it on the head with the history of the Serbs.  There is no questioning their fierce and undying Faith, and their perseverance through tribulation.  But, like you, I find it highly unlikely that they preserved the ancient rituals as purely as the Russian Old Believers.  In fact, one of the things that struck me about the Serbian Church when I joined was that it seemed to be a hybrid between the Greek and the Russian.   
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2010, 05:39:20 PM »
OLD BELIEVER GOD THE FATHER ICONS
Iconographic representation of God the Father is acceptable in Old Believer Churches as can be seen in this video link to a Lipovan Church in which the cameraman zooms in on God the Father Icons prominently displayed in the Church while the people sing the Otche Nash (Our Father)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz6xBc-OMmI&feature=related
God the Father Icons seem to be acceptable to both Belokrinitsky and Pomortsy (priestless) though I know Hopeful Faithful AKA Stranniki, his website (mymartyrdom) is linked below has written that they are heretical.
http://mymartyrdom.com/cr.htm

Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR (Belokrinitsky)
Look at the Icon on the Ceiling! You can see God the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/Old_Believer_Church_Gervais_Oregon.JPG
 

Pomortsy Church in Daugavpils, Latvia
Look at very top of the Icon Screen and you will see the Icon displaying God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Daugavpils_Old_Beliver_Church_of_the_Nativity_of_the_Theotokos4.JPG


Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2010, 12:07:18 AM »
May we all find spiritual health.

Icons of God the Father were one of the heretical influences the Zealots of Piety were hoping to correct before Patriarch Nikon entered the Russian scene. I know an Old Believer from Russia who has clearly explained to me that not only are God the Father icons heretical, but depicting the Holy Spirit as a dove is likewise forbidden in the Old Pomorsky written texts. You might notice the distinctive explanation in my profile here (for some time now) that I am in transition to the Old Pomorsky. I have seen "New" Pomorsky who let dogs into the chapel, men who practice shaving and multitudes of other departures from Orthodoxy. It would not surpriseme if in these days many Old Pomorsky have certain compromises. Let us hope that we all will be making a good repentance from such heinous things as computers and photography, etc., etc., etc..

There are of course several New-Rite Orthodox bishops who currently state that the God the Father icons are indeed heretical, so the Old Pomorsky are not alone in this conviction. All of the Old Believers that I have noticed who have this style icon also have New-Rite bishop influences, hence the source. The Pomorsky photo you show is not nearly clear enough to see detail. Photography can be doubted on good grounds anyway. We all make our choices who we stand with in worship, I would not stand with a God the Father icon. Those who do have lost their Old Believer identity, if you ask me. I will let God judge between us.

The photo from Gervais, Oregon is queer because, practically from within arms reach of where that photo was taken, is a sign saying that photography allowed is not allowed. The sign is seen in other photos taken by this camera at that time. So many violations are rather rampant in our modern age, we should not be surprised. In this post I will not even go into all the worldliness of the Old Believers in the USA, they have unquestionably lost a lot. Many similar questions can be answered in the same way as this, I have no more time tonight.

Few even know what it means to be Christian these days, but I have hope for all of us.

Forgive, brother John
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2010, 02:43:55 PM »
May we all find spiritual health.

Icons of God the Father were one of the heretical influences the Zealots of Piety were hoping to correct before Patriarch Nikon entered the Russian scene.
Few even know what it means to be Christian these days, but I have hope for all of us.

Forgive, brother John


I cannot represent myself as any sort of elder nor can I say I've ever corresponded with any.
I was not aware that the Russian Zealots of Piety were necessarily proto-Pomorsky Old Believers. They un-doubtedly were a strong influence in breaking all communion with the Niconians but I have not read that there was any agreement on this issue amongst early Old Believers nor have I read that any early Old Believer documents nor the Pomorsky Answers ever addressed and condemned icons of God the Father. Please correct me on this if I am wrong.
Below is a photo of an icon of the Holy Trinity from Novgorod painted during the XIVth Century.
Holy Rus did have a tradition of icons of God the Father and from what I've read of the consistent desire and steadfast fidelity to the Holy Tradition received I find it difficult to believe this holy nation would have errored so greviously in painting icons of God the Father.
More than this it was the wicked robber council of Moscow in 1666 which condemned the Old Rite, Old Believers and made official the Niconian Reforms that condemened God the Father icons. It was the Niconians who condemned God the Father Icons. Thankfully the robber council of 1666 in Moscow was nullified in 1682 due to the participation of Paisios Ligarides who was a defrocked Eastern Catholic prelate.





Post edited to replace forbidden epithet with more acceptable alternative.  -PtA
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 08:46:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2010, 10:37:58 AM »
I thought that I would post a photo of a Belokrinitsky Bishop declared a Saint in 2007 by the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church.
Bishop Gerontii Lakomkin (August 1, 1872 -June7, 1951) (Consecrated a Bishop March 11, 1912 of Petersburg-Tver Diocese) was an energetic man who promoted education, refurbished 14 Churches, founded a monastery, and opened several schools and colleges. He suffered a great deal for Old Orthodoxy and the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church during his life being arrested and sent to prison/forced labor camp from 1932-1942 in which conditions were terrible and many died. After being released from prison he continued to work for the Church helping to find candidates for consecration, visiting parishes, and collaborating in the annual publication of the Church Calendar. He died at the age of 78 after nearly forty years of outstanding service and buried in Rogozhskoe cemetary.



Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2010, 11:42:01 PM »
The Revival of Old Orthodox Monasticism
http://www.staroobrad.ru/modules.php?name=News2&file=article&sid=345
Some photos of Old Orthodox Monks and Nuns







Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2011, 03:29:10 PM »
To update this thread I wanted to add that I recently came across a photo album online of the 2009 Pilgrimage lead by Metropolitan Cornelius here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/103958429917072850819/OldBeliever2009#
Perhaps the best photo from the album is below

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2011, 06:27:30 AM »
Beautiful pictures!

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2011, 04:27:27 PM »
Although the topic of this string of posts concerns the Belokrinitsky Metropolitanates, Russia and Lipovan (Romania & Abroad (several communities scattered throughout the world fall under the jurisdiction of the Lipovan Metropolitanate)), I wanted to enlighten others on the recent joyous events involving the Novozybkovsky Hierarchy, Russian Old-Orthodox Church, under Patriarch Alexander. It is little known by most Orthodox that the Nikonian Reforms only reached the Georgian Orthodox in the 18th Century and that this has spawned a Georgian Old-Orthodox movement that clings to the Georgian Old-Rite. Patriarch Alexander and his fellow bishops helped to found the Georgian Old Orthodox Church consecrating Archbishop Paul (Khorava) of Tbilisi and All Georgia which follows the Georgian Old-Rite using the Liturgical Texts of Georgia prior to the 18th Century reforms. The Archbishop and Patriarch can be seen in the photo below.


Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2012, 11:06:43 PM »
Христос Воскресе!

When I began studying the Belokrinitskaya I assumed that they were somehow much different from the Priestless Old Believers such as the Pomortsy who still view the Modern Russian Patriarchate as being of the Antichrist. I assumed that their separation from the MP was little more than an organizational separation that will soon be remedied. I was very much mistaken. While they have seemed to grow closer toward the MP and other Orthodox such as the Jerusalem Patriarchate their are still many hardliners who consider the MP clergy and all other Orthodox as heretics who are not to be prayed with. I had this idea that the Belokrinitskaya would be like the Greek Old Calendarists under Metropolitan Cyprian, "Cyprianites," who maintain that world Orthodoxy is still the Church and hence has Ecclesial Grace of the Mysteries. While they do respect the apostolic succession they do not seem, from what I have read, to have as definite an ecclesiology addressing the contradiction of accepting a mainline Greek Bishop to re-establish their hierarchy while maintaining and teaching that the world Orthodox have fallen into heresy and hence are not truly Orthodox, not truly Christians. I have great admiration and interest in the Old Believers but I pray that they all do what most of the Old Orthodox folks in Erie, PA did and come back to the fullness of the Church. It would be a great blessing to the Church. I haved experienced first hand the blessings that come with practicing the Russian Old Rite in my private life.


I'm not sure if you still believe this to be the case, or if you are still interested in knowing, but, the "Belokrinitskaya" look at it like St. Basil the Great who divided all heretics into 3 degrees.  Не  [St. Basil the Great] wrote: " Thus they (the old authorities) used the names of heresies, of schisms, and of unlawful congregations. By heresies they meant men who were altogether broken off and alienated in matters relating to the actual faith; by schisms men who had separated for some ecclesiastical reasons and questions capable of mutual solution; by unlawful congregations gatherings held by disorderly presbyters or bishops or by unin- structed laymen."  Following the teaching of St. Basil the Great the "Belokrinitskaya" view the Nikonians as "second degree heretics" or in other words schismatics.

[SOURCE = an email from an "Belokrinitskaya" Deacon in Russia.]  

Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:10:42 PM by вєликаго »
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Offline mike

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 10:46:07 AM »
Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.


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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2012, 03:35:49 AM »




OLD BELIEVER GOD THE FATHER ICONS
Iconographic representation of God the Father is acceptable in Old Believer Churches as can be seen in this video link to a Lipovan Church in which the cameraman zooms in on God the Father Icons prominently displayed in the Church while the people sing the Otche Nash (Our Father)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz6xBc-OMmI&feature=related
God the Father Icons seem to be acceptable to both Belokrinitsky and Pomortsy (priestless) though I know Hopeful Faithful AKA Stranniki, his website (mymartyrdom) is linked below has written that they are heretical.
http://mymartyrdom.com/cr.htm

Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR (Belokrinitsky)
Look at the Icon on the Ceiling! You can see God the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/Old_Believer_Church_Gervais_Oregon.JPG
 

Pomortsy Church in Daugavpils, Latvia
Look at very top of the Icon Screen and you will see the Icon displaying God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Daugavpils_Old_Beliver_Church_of_the_Nativity_of_the_Theotokos4.JPG




There are a few confessions of Old Believers, without Priests ("Bespopovsty"), but apparently Pomortsy seem to make up the majority; and together with Fedoseevts, with whom they are in spiritual communion, appear to make up the vast majority of Old Believers, in general.

That said I thought I would add a update to this thread with some digging around that I have done. I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father. Below is an image of a Pomortsy cross, one who cares to should note that there is no depiction of God the Father and no dove depicting the Holy Spirit. Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.

St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2013, 01:29:26 AM »
Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.

You'd better do because it has no sense.

Although I cannot speak for him, I perceive that he was alluding to the Council of Florence and any influence it may have had on relations between the Church in Russia and the Patriarchate of Constantinople.  I recall that Serge Penkovsky had written an article specifically about this that might have pertinent information, but Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote about certain apostate Russian clergy with the same oecumenist spirit.  I recall reading in Fr. Florovsky's 'Ways of Russian Theology' that Tsar Ivan III actually married the Byzantine Princess Sophia Paleologue in the Vatican in Rome.

MK was here
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 07:01:05 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #105 on: March 16, 2013, 02:14:50 AM »
Beautiful pictures!
Indeed!

I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father... Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.
I have recently been discussing the Belokrinitskaya synod with my priest, and he actually told me this exact same thing about ikons of the Father(but not of the Resurrection)(with respect to some old believers generally) earlier this evening!  
In any case, I'd like to thank you for the information which you have taken the time to put out.

If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.  

Johnson actually asserted that the nineteenth century revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia that began with Paisius Velichkovsky was actually enabled precisely because of Old Believers who historically invest far more in education and are much more knowledgable than their Nikonian counterparts, and the Orthodox Christian heritage which survived the eighteenth century is largely attributable to the Old Believer merchant families' dedication to preservation of Old Russian Christian culture including the books that deserves credit for enabling Paisius's movement to accomplish what it did.

Although I respect all synods, both of these hierarchies (Mathewite and Bela Krinitsa) have grace as I understand it as they both derive apostolic succession from Orthodox Christian [Greek] bishops of the Ottoman period - although they are not in official communion with one another.

Personally, I have visited the Church in Erie once before (and they were very hospitable) and perceive the environment existing in the Old Orthodox Churches a bit more conducive to a more regimented prayer life.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 02:37:52 AM by Dionysii »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #106 on: March 16, 2013, 02:28:08 AM »
I'm not sure if you still believe this to be the case, or if you are still interested in knowing, but, the "Belokrinitskaya" look at it like St. Basil the Great who divided all heretics into 3 degrees.  Не  [St. Basil the Great] wrote: " Thus they (the old authorities) used the names of heresies, of schisms, and of unlawful congregations. By heresies they meant men who were altogether broken off and alienated in matters relating to the actual faith; by schisms men who had separated for some ecclesiastical reasons and questions capable of mutual solution; by unlawful congregations gatherings held by disorderly presbyters or bishops or by unin- structed laymen."  Following the teaching of St. Basil the Great the "Belokrinitskaya" view the Nikonians as "second degree heretics" or in other words schismatics.
[SOURCE = an email from an "Belokrinitskaya" Deacon in Russia.]

Very well put.
Apologize for so many consecutive posts as I have been very interested in this subjectas of late. 

Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »
I have been very interested in this subjectas of late. 


Good health to all.

Keep your interest, it is not a lost cause at all.

forgive


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

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Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2013, 12:27:44 AM »
Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.

You'd better do because it has no sense.

Although I cannot speak for him, I perceive that he was alluding to the Council of Florence and any influence it may have had on relations between the Church in Russia and the Patriarchate of Constantinople.  I recall that Serge Penkovsky had written an article specifically about this that might have pertinent information, but Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote about certain apostate Russian clergy with the same oecumenist spirit.  I recall reading in Fr. Florovsky's 'Ways of Russian Theology' that Tsar Ivan III actually married the Byzantine Princess Sophia Paleologue in the Vatican in Rome.

MK was here

You are correct I was referring to the Council of Florence, and the effects this had on the relations between the Russian Church and the Greek Church.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Nikolai Sergeev

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2013, 01:59:44 PM »
The old believers in Russia are allowed to take communion in the Orthodox Church (as well as the roman catholics), but otherwise they are considered schismatic.

I haven't searched into this matter thoroughly enough to outline all differences between the Russian Orthodox and Old Believers, but the general notion among Russian Orthodox is that the Old Believers strayed from the Greek Orthodox Tradition (and hence authentic, since the Greeks are considered the successors of the Byzantine Empire) and distorted its liturgy rites, which is definitely unacceptable for an orthodox church, since the very word 'orthodox' implies preservation of tradition.

A different matter is how Patriarch Nikon treated the christians who opposed his reforms, but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 02:10:11 PM by Nikolai Sergeev »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2013, 05:17:11 PM »
but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...

Offline Alpo

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2013, 05:21:27 PM »
but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...

Nope. Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2013, 05:50:25 PM »
Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.

Although вєликаго might have a different view, an invisible Church doctrine (or something similar) is indeed what I understand to be the case with priestless Old Believers, but I do not detect that to be the case of priested Old Orthodox Christians such as the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy. 

I see quite a distinction between the priested and priestless.  I understand the priested to be the canonical Church since the Russian synod officially and actually became a department of the Russian government since the time of Tsar Peter (and perhaps effectively since Tsar Alexi before him).  The Tsars and their secular agent (the procurator) had the authroity to raise up, put down, and rotate bishops which was not canonical at all.  One example of this uncanonical system is that it caused the decline of the Optina brotherhood which was unable to effectively remedy the decisions of this synod against it since it was loyal to it.  This history is contained in the life of Saint Barsanuphius of Optina who was under of the Nikonian Synod. 

Another important distinction between the priested Old Orthodox Christians and many (or most) of the priestless is that the priested did not anathematize the Nikonian Church nor consider them graceless.  Their steadfastness and lack of fanaticism contributed to their stability and their eventual triumph by acqusition of a hierarchy which is completely legitimate as far as I can tell. 

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2013, 06:09:19 PM »
I have read recently (in Fr. Matthew Raphael Johnson's book I believe) that heretical elements of old Russia saw opportunity in the schism, and these sects are exactly what composed most of the priestless sects which multiplied and bore many resemblances to protestantism.  

EDIT:  I might add that although вєликаго may possibly have a different view of this, I do think he made a point about iconography worth bearing in mind.  In any case, I do think one would have too look far and wide to discover a western resurrection ikon among Russian Old Orthodox Christians.  

The priested did not have a history of divisions and sects like the priestless.  
I would like to research the number of schisms (for whatever cause) which the Nikonian Synod had during the Petrine era. 
It would be particularly interesting if it was shown to have had more schisms than the priested!

From the view of the priested Old Orthodox Christians, the Moscow Patriarchate adopted characteristics of a Frankist styled papacy, and the priestless adopted characteristics of protestantism while the priested Old Orthodox Church simply persevered in the customs of Old Russia which in many respects were more Byzantine than the Orthodox Roman Christian citizens of the Ottoman Empire and definitely more Byzantine than modrn Greece which adopted a western Frankist influenced iconography and even theology in the early 1880's concomitant with the anti-Ottoman revolt.  

Incidentally, I see in the greek revolt a British masonic plot, the adoption of european ways including nationalism, and an abandonment of Orthodox Christian tradition, but that is another story.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 06:32:00 PM by Dionysii »

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2013, 02:16:23 AM »
I have been very interested in this subjectas of late.

Good health to all.

Keep your interest, it is not a lost cause at all.

Much appreciate the informative material on Old Orthodox Christians in English that you have made available through the internet. 
I was previously aware of the mymartyrdom site and was glad to come across your newer site by way of this forum. 

I definitely intend to visit the Bela Krinitsa Synod Churches in Oregon and Alaska - perhaps as a honeymoon with my wife. 
I would like to visit the monastery in Romania as well for a more extended period. 

In the meantime, I use the Old Orthodox Prayer book published by Holy Nativty Church of Erie, PA at home - although I use the (Byzantine style Enlgish) HTM Prayer book at my local Church which enables me to follow the services even though they are in Greek. 
(I tried to follow along with our Greek services using the Erie Prayer Book, and I could not do it and had to revert to the HTM book or in its absence the prayer rope). 

I will try to learn Byzantine chant (one step at a time) while I am here since it would seem to be a waste not to do so.  In my opinion, I would benefit far more from learning ecclesiastical Greek and Byzantine chant than modern demotic Greek which would be far less valuable to me than learning something like Arabic.  If I could pick three languages to learn, they would be:
1) (Byzantine) Greek chant (which I can learn through practice at my Church although Mounce's biblical grammar deserves mention since it is probably the most user friendly one out there) 
2) Slavonic Znameny chant
3) Modern Standard Arabic

I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate. 

In all this, I am trying to take the best of both worlds (Greek and Russian).

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2013, 02:21:03 AM »
...more Byzantine than the Orthodox Roman Christian citizens of the Ottoman Empire and definitely more Byzantine than modrn Greece which adopted a western Frankist influenced iconography and even theology in the early 1880's concomitant with the anti-Ottoman revolt...
The date in the quote includes a typo.
I had meant to write the early 1800's here (i.e. 1821).

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2013, 05:26:52 AM »
or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a latinisation? And a sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #117 on: March 30, 2013, 12:56:11 PM »
or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a ... sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?

As I said above, using a prayer rope is not my normal mode of practice.  That detail is an oeconomy since I confess that I do not have the Liturgy memorized, and the services at the Church at which I attend are in a language which I do not understand.  I actually learned of this practice some years ago from Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov's book on the Jesus prayer which advised saying the Jesus prayer (mentally) as a practice for person's in such situations.  He did advise to stop the prayer at the time of the reading of the Gospel. 

At any rate, I find that the author of the Way of a Pilgrim had a deeper understanding of the Jesus Prayer than did Bishop Brianchaninov - likely due to more advanced experience.  I am not advanced in the Jesus prayer, but I read in 'The Way of a Pilgrim' that acquisition of the prayer actually greatly helped the pilgrim to keep his attention during Church services and prevented him from getting bored.  Perhaps you conclude that I am ignorant and viod of even basic understanding of the Liturgy, but I am led to believe that the Jesus prayer is not inconsistent with the Liturgy, but actually assists it without contradiction.   

If I have no way of understanding a service in which I am attending due to language and no adequate service book on hand to help me follow along, then the Jesus prayer would keep my mind from wandering.  I observe that on occasion when out priest stands at the analogion (assisting the chanters) for part of the service in which he is not required to be at the altar, he has a prayer rope in his hand. 

I would ask you that if I am attending a Church service in which I do not know the language and am not able to follow the service for whatever reason, then what else would you suggest in such a situation?  Do you advise that I ignore the prayer of Jesus' Name and allow my mind the possibility to wander with nothing to concentrate upon?

I have many faults, but with perfect honesty, I perceive the question you posed falls far afoul of the path of constructive criticism.  If a forum moderator looks for some petty detail like having a prayer rope in my hand during a Church service as a pretext to criticize me, then I would say with all due respect that I will probably be spending less time on this forum.  Peace be with you, brother. 

Be that as it may, I am very content to have come across вєликаго and a few others on this forum. 

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #118 on: March 30, 2013, 02:10:53 PM »
Although вєликаго might have a different view, an invisible Church doctrine (or something similar) is indeed what I understand to be the case with priestless Old Believers, but I do not detect that to be the case of priested Old Orthodox Christians such as the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.

Forgive me brother, I had misunderstood your exact position until I understood that your jurisdiction is Lipovan
(i.e. priested Bela Krinitsa synod)!  You simply seek Stranniki or pilgrim life while Lipovan is your synod. 
Correct me if I am mistaken. 

It seems our faith is one! God bless you!

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2013, 02:24:40 PM »
How long have you been Orthodox? Liturgy gets memorised pretty easily. You haven't manager to grasp it yet?

And why to stop for Gospel if you don't understand it too?

And yes, I've been attending services in a language I do not understand for over 80% of my life.
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Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2013, 02:38:06 PM »
or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a ... sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?

... the services at the Church at which I attend are in a language which I do not understand.  I actually learned of this practice some years ago from Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov's book on the Jesus prayer which advised saying the Jesus prayer (mentally) as a practice for person's in such situations.

I thought it worth reminding persons minded to criticize this that Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov who made such a suggestion was himself a bishop of the Petrine synod.  

Although I cannot presently locate the webpage, I did discover and print a guide to preparation of confession from the website of none other than the (Bela Krinitsa) Holy Ascension Old Orthodox Church in Oregon that asks (among other questions):

"Have you prepared for services beforehand looking up scriptural readings, making sure you have texts to follow the service especially if in a language you do not readily understand?"
How pertinent.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #121 on: March 30, 2013, 03:07:59 PM »
How long have you been Orthodox?
I am but a catechumen only.  

Liturgy gets memorised pretty easily. You haven't manager to grasp it yet?
No, I have not yet memorized the liturgy word for word.  I already realize this and am working on my knowledge and involvement with prayer and liturgics generally along with other things that I need to work on, but I wonder who made thee my confessor?

I've been attending services in a language I do not understand for over 80% of my life.
You are quite a prying critic - are you not?
I think if you searched you would find many more faults, but such questions are frankly none of your business.  
Your conversation shows to me that you are interested in finding faults with others and proving you are more spiritual,
but I want no part of such competition.  

This is the second time that I have indicated to you that I am not interested in your personal comments (although I will of course cooperate with anything reasonable you request as a moderator),  but I will likely ignore further personal questions from you because I realize that Solomon wrote in Proverbs that a fool will not learn even from a hundred lashes.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 03:08:31 PM by Dionysii »

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #122 on: March 30, 2013, 04:06:15 PM »
but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...

Nope. Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.

Actually, your statement contains an error (!); we do not believe there is any true head of the church, except Jesus -- our Christ. You give one man, whom you are calling the head of the church, the kind authority the Pseudo Pope of Rome claims for himself, or at the very least something akin to it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:12:45 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Nikolai Sergeev

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2013, 04:42:44 PM »
I'm sorry, sometimes it's really hard to communicate an idea in a language that you don't use very often.
I probably added some unnecessary articles in the "the head of the Church", and it might sound really 'catholic' now.
But what I really meant, is that we have to obey our elders, unless their orders force us to break God's commandments.
As Peter said:

Quote
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

And I don't consider Orthodox Patriarchs infallible, since every man is sinful and even one of the twelve closest disciples fell.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2013, 05:03:35 PM »
I'm sorry, sometimes it's really hard to communicate an idea in a language that you don't use very often.
I probably added some unnecessary articles in the "the head of the Church", and it might sound really 'catholic' now.
But what I really meant, is that we have to obey our elders, unless their orders force us to break God's commandments.
As Peter said:

Quote
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

And I don't consider Orthodox Patriarchs infallible, since every man is sinful and even one of the twelve closest disciples fell.

I have to say that this post sounds so much better than your previous.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2013, 05:10:24 PM »
The old believers in Russia are allowed to take communion in the Orthodox Church (as well as the roman catholics), but otherwise they are considered schismatic.

Here's a question - just to confirm: 
Unlike the ROCOR Old Believer Church in Erie, PA, the Bela Krinitsa Synod does not permit any communion with either ROCOR nor the Moscow Patriarchate.  Do I understand correctly?

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2013, 05:36:55 PM »
The "Old Believers in Erie, PA" you speak of, are probable the "Old Believers" that joined ROCOR (which has rejoined with Moscow) and are no longer Old Believers but are now "Edinoverie". Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2013, 06:08:52 PM »
Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Crossing oneself with three fingers is a pernicious heresy indeed...  :-\

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2013, 06:56:51 PM »
Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Crossing oneself with three fingers is a pernicious heresy indeed...  :-\

Despite, what seems like obvious ridicule to me, you are correct that crossing ones self with three fingers, is a heresy; but make no mistake there are plenty more. It seems (to me) that you aim to defend the innovations you follow by ridicule.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 07:08:29 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »
I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate.  

[quote/][quote/]


Who are Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:24:16 PM by Putnik Namernik »

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »
Beautiful pictures!
Indeed!

I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father... Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.
I have recently been discussing the Belokrinitskaya synod with my priest, and he actually told me this exact same thing about ikons of the Father(but not of the Resurrection)(with respect to some old believers generally) earlier this evening!  
In any case, I'd like to thank you for the information which you have taken the time to put out.

If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.  

Johnson actually asserted that the nineteenth century revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia that began with Paisius Velichkovsky was actually enabled precisely because of Old Believers who historically invest far more in education and are much more knowledgable than their Nikonian counterparts, and the Orthodox Christian heritage which survived the eighteenth century is largely attributable to the Old Believer merchant families' dedication to preservation of Old Russian Christian culture including the books that deserves credit for enabling Paisius's movement to accomplish what it did.

Although I respect all synods, both of these hierarchies (Mathewite and Bela Krinitsa) have grace as I understand it as they both derive apostolic succession from Orthodox Christian [Greek] bishops of the Ottoman period - although they are not in official communion with one another.

Personally, I have visited the Church in Erie once before (and they were very hospitable) and perceive the environment existing in the Old Orthodox Churches a bit more conducive to a more regimented prayer life.  


Who is this Saint Ambrose of Bosnia?


Saint Ambrosii was recently canonized; he was a Bishop in the Greek "Orthodox" Church and was received according to Canon 95 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:32:25 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2013, 08:43:45 PM »
^Thanks. It's "Bosnia that confuses me...what do Ambrosii and Avakum  have to do do with Bosnia?

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »
Saint Avvakum has nothing to do with Bosnia; and I'm not sure what Saint Ambrosii might.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:49:32 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2013, 08:50:14 PM »
The only Avakum I can recall is from Serbia not Bosnia(online it's spelled incorrectly as Habakkuk, while in the book it is spelled Avakum)...unless it is different Avakum that is being mentioned...

Paisius was abbot of the Travna Monastery near Cacak in Serbia, and Habakkuk was his companion and deacon. As Christians, both were impaled on stakes by the Turks on Kalemegdan in Belgrade on December 17, 1814. Carrying his stake through the streets of Belgrade, the courageous Habakkuk sang. When his mother begged him with tears to embrace Islam in order to save his life, this wonderful soldier of Christ replied to her:



                  My mother, thank you for your milk,
                  But for your counsel I thank you not:
                  A Serb is Christ's; he rejoices in death.

Source: http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html?month=December&day=17&Go.x=7&Go.y=13

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)
« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2013, 08:54:03 PM »
Saint Avvakum has nothing to do with Bosnia; and I'm not sure what Saint Ambrosii might.

The following are quotes by Dionysii:

"If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy."


Different post by Dionysii as well:

"I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate."

« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:55:48 PM by Putnik Namernik »