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Author Topic: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)  (Read 30355 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2010, 08:51:34 AM »

Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.   

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 08:53:54 AM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2010, 09:56:02 AM »

I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 09:58:36 AM by xenos » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2010, 10:05:02 AM »

Recent visit of Met. Cornelius to Tiraspol, Rep. of Moldova:

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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2010, 01:42:20 PM »

Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.

Thanks for posting this. It was great getting more insight into the Erie, PA parish and its history. I didn't realize they came fro ma priestless group.

Last year I met a student at the university I was attending that was baptized as an Old Believer in Russia as an infant by one of the sects with priests. He wasn't in any way practicing, but it was interesting asking him a few questions. He was an absolutely brilliant scholar, especially for his age.
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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2010, 03:20:48 PM »

one of the sects with priests?
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« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2010, 06:07:54 PM »

Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 06:09:22 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2010, 06:47:31 PM »

I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
In the beginning I had hoped that the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy would be the focus of the topic. That is why I kept posting the information I did. Unfortunately most Orthodox laity outside of the former Russian Empire and Romania have not even heard of Old Believers and less than 0.1% have heard of the Belokrinitsky. Due to the lack of knowledge many people made comments and associations that have to do with all Old Believers, with Edinoverie, with ROCOR, with whether or not the Old Rite is correct, etc.
What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.
Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
one of the sects with priests?
Perhaps he did not know if it was by a priest under the Novozybkov Hierarchy AKA "Old Orthodox MP"?
Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.
This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
I don't think this is really fair to state that lack of unity "even amongst themselves" is evidence of sectarian nature. This is the same argument Atheists, Agnostics, and others libel Christianity with when they attack us lumping RCs, Protestants, Non-Chalcedonians, Nestorians, and others into the same boat with us as Christians.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 06:48:49 PM by Lenexa » Logged
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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2010, 06:51:00 PM »

It is an odd thing to read on a forum that has a separate section for non-chalcedonians.

As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.

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For this reason, then, we require greater attention and consideration in order to investigate how precisely we ought to live, and what is the true piety. For it is plain that, from the very reason that truth is difficult and arduous of attainment, questions arise from which spring the heresies, savouring of self-love and vanity, of those who have not learned or apprehended truly, but only caught up a mere conceit of knowledge. With the greater care, therefore, are we to examine the real truth, which alone has for its object the true God. And the toil is followed by sweet discovery and reminiscence.

On account of the heresies, therefore, the toil of discovery must be undertaken; but we must not at all abandon [the truth]. For, on fruit being set before us, some real and ripe, and some made of wax, as like the real as possible, we are not to abstain from both on account of the resemblance. But by the exercise of the apprehension of contemplation, and by reasoning of the most decisive character, we must distinguish the true from the seeming.
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« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 06:52:27 PM by xenos » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2010, 07:11:35 PM »

Quote
What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.

Vladyka Andrei was not completely truthful neither with us, nor with the Novozybkovsky christians, who he also attempted to join. While we thought that he joined us, he saw it as the fact that we joined him. Later this was realized... and that's why he ended up staying with the catacombists, forming the andrewite branch (who were basically yedinovertsy). That branch still exists in the eastern Russia (though dying out). I have not studied the issue enough to explain everything in detail but I can read up on it and get back at you. To be honest I don't have much interest in catacombists.

Quote
Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
I do but don't want to go into detail here, because the issue is usually blown out of proportion on the internet. All I'll say is that the conflict will be resolved at the quickly approaching Romanian Council.
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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2010, 11:45:09 PM »

As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.

I would retract the post if I could. It's hard to balance truth with grace, and I aim at peace with all men. Forgive me for any offense.
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« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2010, 06:24:27 PM »

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent website with good articles concerning Old Orthodoxy:
archeodox.wordpress.com
It contains a hagiography of the Belokrinitsky St.Joseph of the Far East.
http://archeodox.wordpress.com/category/lives-of-saints/
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« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2010, 07:11:22 PM »

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent website with good articles concerning Old Orthodoxy:
archeodox.wordpress.com
It contains a hagiography of the Belokrinitsky St.Joseph of the Far East.
http://archeodox.wordpress.com/category/lives-of-saints/


What kind clerical Garb is he wearing looks kind of latin... Huh with the little cape...
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« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2010, 07:12:54 PM »

What kind clerical Garb is he wearing looks kind of latin... Huh with the little cape...

LOL
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« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2010, 09:47:51 PM »

It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).
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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2010, 10:00:43 PM »

It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).



I've Never seen Serbian Monks or Priests or Bishops wear something like that,,Has to be Latin Influence In the Russian Church I read the latins influenced Russian Orthodoxy from the 17 century onward...Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »

Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 10:21:47 PM by xenos » Logged
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2010, 10:30:31 PM »


Some srbs did seek out Latin traditions some of our medieval Churches Have what they tries to pass off as gargoyles on them disgusting and ugly they are..



Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2010, 10:40:48 PM »

So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

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6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 10:41:41 PM by xenos » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2010, 10:43:55 PM »

So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

Quote
6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.

Orthodox Catholic but some Latin Influence For sure.... Grin
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2010, 10:52:15 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2010, 10:58:39 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...

Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  Grin
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2010, 11:01:19 PM »

Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:

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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2010, 11:05:10 PM »

Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:



This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2010, 11:19:57 PM »

This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above...

Only because of the Birch.
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« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2010, 11:32:58 PM »

This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above...

Only because of the Birch.

Serbija ,Bulgarija, Makadonija, the balkans are Orthodox  For One thousand Two Hundred Years...And i never seen that Getup ever...What Does Russija Okrajina Have Only One Thousand yrs Of Holy Orthodoxy....Humm Also Where older than the Old believers are...
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« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2010, 12:44:40 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

I second.
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« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2010, 01:02:31 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

I second.

Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.
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« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2010, 01:35:32 AM »

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.
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« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2010, 05:49:11 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

The Church in the basement has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.

I second.

Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.

The Church in the basements has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.
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« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2010, 06:23:00 AM »

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.

How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... Huh Huh
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« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...

Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  Grin

Xenos has more than adequately addressed this topic and done the research for you. He has clearly demonstrated that the origin of the half-mantle is not at Latin. Just because Russian bishops of official Church stopped wearing the half-mantle while Latin bishops continue to wear it, although this is not the norm since Vatican II, does not in anyway make it Latin. Why do Orthodox do this to themselves? Why do we attribute things to the Latins and not do the research?
What you wrote above is really upsetting.
You are making an assumption which is false and not doing the research to even see if you are right! No, the Church for the first several hundred years was not marked by some East vs West split. There were conflicts and differences that emerged during the first millenia but many of these were within Western Europe due to the Germanic peoples. Pope St.Martin the Confessor and St.Maximos are a great example of how East and West were not split during the first millenia of the Church. The differences in Liturgical vestments is something that has evolved over time but even the differences in the Bishops Mitre and the wearing of mantles and half mantles is not an East vs. West split! The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre and the wearing of the Mantle has been adequately shown to originate from early-Christian Monasticism in the Middle East.
Please don't take the Modern state of things and then impose it on history.
Please don't make fun of the clothing worn by St.Joseph of the Far East just because he was an Old Believer bishop that you don't agree with!
The man was so highly regarded that even the local MP bishop went to his funeral and made a prostration.

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.

How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... Huh Huh

Xenos has already explained the Eastern origin of the half-mantle. Russian Christianity was strongly influenced by Monasticism and faithfully maintained absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typikon. The Old Believers still maintain absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typicon.
Please don't judge whose Orthodox based on appearances alone.
There have been alot of heretics who looked very Orthodox.

Please just do some reading and learn the history of the Church. Take the time to learn why the Old Believers left the MP so long ago and maybe you will start to see things in a new light?



Unwarranted pot shot at recent hierarch of the Church removed from post by moderator. You could have made your point perfectly clear without naming any examples.  -PtA
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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2010, 10:06:32 PM »

Lenexa,

I just started reading this thread and find it fascinating.  For years the Old Believer Prayer Book was what I used for my services, and to this day I still make the sign of the cross with two fingers (to the amusement of my priest, but he has not told me to stop).  Like you, I settled in the Serb Church under +Longin, and I have a Priest that is very traditional, as well as sympathetic to the Old Believers.  I am about three hours North of you in Omaha.  I think people from my Church were down at yours for some festival a couple of months ago.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2010, 10:35:58 PM »





The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2010, 12:50:43 AM »





The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....

You think some of the practices in the Church of Constantinople and Serbia have always been around? Remember, some of the clothing that many priests wear were adopted from the Turks such as the Rassa. The Old Rite faith is what the great Saints of the Russian Church before Nikon would have been familiar with such as St. Sergius of Radonezh, Sts. Sergius and Herman of Valaam (founders of Valaam Monastery), St. Nilus of Sora, St. Cyril of Belozersk, St. Sabbatius of Solovki, St. Alexander Nevsky, ect. would have all practiced in the same way that Old Ritualists do today. So, are you saying that they weren't Orthodox or traditional enough since they did the Sign of the Cross with two fingers and practiced all the other aspects that you find among Old Ritualists? The reforms were not necessary and in fact, Constantinople never suggested that the Russians had to reform their practices.

The historical evidence has already been provided but you choose to ignore it apparently.
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2010, 05:50:29 AM »

The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else. . .

Roll Eyes

The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...

That is, to a rite which was newer and contained innovations. Old Believers of the 17th century followed the same reasoning as you follow today. Let me quote your posts from another thread:
Changes are a No No.... Grin
I Hate Changes......

Btw, stashko, if I may ask, is there any hidden meaning behind your peculiar use of uppercase and lowercase letters?
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« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2010, 06:03:37 AM »

The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre. . .

Well, not really. As far as I know, Armenian bishops adopted the Latin-like mitre around the time of the crusades and in the Coptic Church it is priests, not bishops, who wear a hat (called kalanzoa) similar to the Latin mitre.
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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2010, 06:18:31 PM »

The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre. . .

Well, not really. As far as I know, Armenian bishops adopted the Latin-like mitre around the time of the crusades and in the Coptic Church it is priests, not bishops, who wear a hat (called kalanzoa) similar to the Latin mitre.

I have to admit I was wrong on this one. You are right.
But still my point is more that you should not make assumptions about the first millenia of Christianity based on what happened during the second millenia. And really, I still say this, I don't think that the liturgical vestments are just an East OR West dichotomy. The vestments of the Copts, Syriacs and Ethiopians being a prime example of the differences WITHIN the East. The hats discussed that are worn by the priests are below:


The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
Just like the Serbs. Nothing traditional about them, just a group of Slavs who adopted a Greek Rite in Middle Ages. They must have distorted it though because Constantinople doesn't have Vigil every Saturday Evening.
 Cheesy
Why are you so stubborn and rude about this issue? You are making a fool of yourself because you clearly don't know what you are talking about! Any study of the Russian Old Rite (the Jerusalem Typicon), the Nikonian Reforms and the liturgical reforms made by the Patriarchate of Constantinople over time will see that Russia was simply remaining faithful to the Typicon. This has been so thorougly proven it is simply stubborn and rude to deny it.
Please read and be thoughtful! Don't simply do what I know is popular amongst American Neo-Conservatives and Serbian Fascists and think with your gut.
This article by Nikita Simmons is good over-view about the Russian Old Rite.
http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/finland/presentation_2007.html

A photo of the Oko Tserkovnoe (Eye of the Church) AKA Jerusalem Typikon as it is place on the Iconostas in the Russian Old Rite Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR.


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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2010, 10:18:00 PM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

Just ignore him (or learn to love him)!  Cheesy  Grin Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2010, 10:31:20 PM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

Just ignore him (or learn to love him)!  Cheesy  Grin Smiley


He wants What he believes is Older and traditional, but it's really is a distorted version of Holy Orthodoxy ,that got distorted when [Tsarigrad] Constantinople was Christianizing russ/ukrainia..The Holy Patriarch Noticed that and tried to correct it for them,they refused the correction and kept the distortion as Traditional...What can i say, he wants  it ,Go For it...I Prefer  The Genuine Old Calender Greek Orthodox Church ,they at Least they Kept the Correct Form thats been Preached, Taught given to the Balkans and the World..... Grin
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2010, 11:07:53 PM »

Stashko, did you know that our bishops have broken with earlier tradition by adding the crowns that they wear to their vestments?
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2010, 11:18:20 PM »



http://www.musicarussica.com/discdet.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-response=discdet.lasso&-layout=CD_detail&-RecID=35745&-search

I just received this album in the mail today, and I absolutely love it! I really wish that Slavic parishes sounded like this versus the newer "concert" polyphony that many of them use (not that that cannot be beautiful as well). It just sounds so much closer to Byzantine chant in many ways, and seems to better match the monastic ethos and the aesthetics of the iconography than the more "choral" style (whatever it is officially called is beyond me).

Lenexa, if you don't have this, I should burn it off for you and we can meet up sometime. You can show me how the heck you're even supposed to the sign-of-the-cross that way.
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2010, 12:41:03 AM »

Stashko, did you know that our bishops have broken with earlier tradition by adding the crowns that they wear to their vestments?

The word Tsari Grad means in serbian Kings City For Constantinople....I would say that the Patriarch and the state  King/Emperor worked Hand in Hand that could be where the tradition came from, for the Miter crown ....Adding a tradition has nothing to do with keeping a distorted Practice,, once it's been revealed that it isn't quite right what the mother church Brought to them in the Beginning....

I am going to bow out from this thread.....

People that want that Version of Orthodoxy Go For It .......

But as for Me And Mine ,
we will Stick to The Authentic Holy Orthodoxy Given to us 200 yrs earlier than Russija /Okrainija...... Grin
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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2010, 12:44:54 AM »

Ill Stick to The Authentic one Given to us 200 yrs earlier ...... Grin

You mean back when Serbia was under Latin missionaries?  Shocked
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2010, 12:57:07 AM »

Ill Stick to The Authentic one Given to us 200 yrs earlier ...... Grin

You mean back when Serbia was under Latin missionaries?  Shocked

Some of our Rulers or ruler did kiss up to rome ,can't deny that, but that didn't lead anywhere ....Where still Orthodox...Ha Ha Ha... Grin Bowing out Now...
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2010, 02:00:16 AM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

There is a certain comic which, I believe, well illustrates stashko's behaviour online. I won't post it here because it contains the F-word, but if anyone wants to see it, just type "Trollface - Encyclopedia Dramatica" in Google search engine, follow the first link and then open the graphic file with "The original comic" caption.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 02:13:34 AM by Michał » Logged
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