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Author Topic: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)  (Read 30343 times) Average Rating: 0
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Lenexa
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« on: January 21, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »

First I want to apologize if this in the wrong forum. I was not quite sure where this topic would fit in.
Lately I have been very interested in learning more about the Old Believers. I have been interested and read what information I could find over the years but recently my interest has been in learning more about the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy who received their priesthood in 1846 by acceptance of the Greek Metropolitan Ambrose who had recently converted to the Old Believers. Most of what I know comes from wikipedia articles listed below.
Old Believers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/index.html
The Churches of Belokrinitskaya Hierachy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
And I've read others on wiki related to the hierarchy.
I don't want to debate whether this was or was not "canonically valid" as Metropolitan Ambrose consecrated another Bishop single-handedly.I am simply interested learning more about the history of Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy, their present Church, how they view the Russian "New" Rite Church, discussions/relations with Russian New Rite and World Orthodoxy, and whether they have ever been actively involved in missionary activities and their view on such.
This last issues are important to me for several reasons:
 As I see it the Church is for all people and should be actively engaged in preaching and spreading the faith. I understand that the Old Believers have been heavily persecuted throughout their history and are only now completely free and active in their Russian homeland. However I often get the impression that Old Believers are very much separated from other people and are not interested in evangelism. However I do speak Russian and there is little information available online in English.
My interest is also personal because I am curious about whether it would be possible for an average Orthodox believer to become an Old-Rite Orthodox. I have no intention of ever leaving the Orthodox Church or "World Orthodoxy" but looking at Old Believers of Erie, PA who are in ROCOR it makes me wonder if someday we may see Russian Orthodox Old-Rite missions made up of converts to Orthodoxy or Orthodox who decided to "convert" to the Old-Rite? From what I've read about the liturgical practices of the Old-Rite parish in Erie, PA I would be interested in joining an Old-Rite parish as I like Old Russian tradition and long services without omissions or abbreviations and the inclusion of the homilies. This is not out of pride or vanity and I do realize that even the Old-Rite is the product of liturgical development. It has more to with my taking a personal liking to the Russian Old-Rite and it's practices.
Another question I think about is wouldn't it be great for the Russian Orthodox Church if the Old Believers of Belokrinitskaya reunited with MP?! Perhaps I am just being naive but I wonder if the Old Believers piety would be an example honored and emulated by those Russians coming back to the fullness of their faith in the mainstream MP.
Like I stated earlier I do not read or speak Russian so I am limited in my ability to learn much online but I would appreciate any and all help with regards to the many questions listed.
Thank you for your time and asking for your prayers!
Eucherius Place & Family



Fixed a url tag for you...  -PtA
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:56:40 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Lenexa
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 07:35:43 PM »

I wanted to add the link to the Old-Rite ROCOR Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
and a few Old Believer photos that struck my interest to look more into the Old Believers.
The First two are of Metropolitan Kornily of The Russian Orthodox Old-Rite and the third is Metropolitan Leonty of the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite.
The Prayerbook is available from the Church of Nativity Bookstore and can be purchased online.
The first icon is of St.Avvakum the famous executed Old Believer who wrote an autobiography.
The last icon is by the Old Believer Iconographer Pimen Sofronov, who painted St.John (Maximovitch) of San Francisco's Sepulchre whose paintings can be seen here:
http://www.macdougallauction.com/catalogue%20June%2007/index.asp?page=13

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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 07:39:14 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 07:41:11 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 07:44:00 PM »

The Lipovans (rusi lipoveni) I've seen in Romania don't seem like they are eager to make any converts; they seemed pretty much content to keep their national customs and faith and didn't seem to have any desire to polemicize with the Romanian Orthodox around.
Actually I know of a few that, having moved far away from their traditional areas, now attend the local Romanian parish.
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Andrew21091
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 08:04:37 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!

Hopeful Faithful is part of the ultra-strict priestless branch called the Pomortsy. I believe he would consider people like Metropolitan Kornily and other Old Believer Bishops and priests to be in heresy and not really Old Believers.
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augustin717
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 09:04:41 PM »

here is a video with the metropolitan Leontie of the Old Believers, residing in Braila, Romania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj714Fape5U&feature=related
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 09:05:57 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!

Hopeful Faithful is part of the ultra-strict priestless branch called the Pomortsy. I believe he would consider people like Metropolitan Kornily and other Old Believer Bishops and priests to be in heresy and not really Old Believers.
The photos on Hopeful Faithful's web site show a priest named Fr. John. (?)
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Lenexa
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 06:04:08 PM »

Thanks for fixing the url on the wiki article for the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church.
Thanks to Augustin for the youtube video.
I really am limited in my ability to find out much because I can't read or speak Russian, Church Slavonic, or Romanian. I would think that they would at least have some interest in spreading the Christian faith especially since, as far as I know, they don't generally regard other Orthodox as being fully Christian. Does anyone know if I am wrong about this? These are the kind of things I wish I could ask someone who belongs to this group of Old Believers.
Does anyone know if ROCOR has had any relations with them? Does anyone know if the MP has approached them or had any discussions with them? or maybe the Romanian Orthodox Church with the Lipovans?
The Old Rite ROCOR parish in Erie, PA is 1/3 people who converted from non-Orthodoxy according to their website so that shows that there are people out their drawn to the Old Rite with its stricter guidelines and longer services.
The photos I posted that don't show up can be seen on this blog for the Old Rite monks in North Dakota who are, or were, not sure, within the Belokrinitskaya Hierachy.
http://oldbeliever.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »

The photos on Hopeful Faithful's web site show a priest named Fr. John. (?)

Well, in his faith indication under jurisdiction, it says Strict Pomorsky (Stranniki). The Stranniki (meaning wanderers or runaways) are a group of Pomorsky Old Believers who are priestless.

Look at his custom title: "How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?"

Read all about them on John's (Hopeful Faithful) blog: http://stranniki.blogspot.com/. The top of the page has a short description of the Stranniki Pomorsky group.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 06:54:55 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
Lenexa
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2010, 11:04:14 PM »


St.Ambrose of Bila Krynytskya
(b.1791-d. October 30/November 11, 1863 Feastday Oct.30/Nov.11)
In doing research on the Old Believers and particularly the Belokrinitskaya I gleaned a lot from a google translation of this Russian wiki article:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BC%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9_(%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82_%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9)
This amazing bishop was glorified in 1996 and his relics taken to Brail, Romania at the headquarters of the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church in 2000.
Thank God for the internet! I'm still amazed at how much you can find if you just look.
I'm also glad that I've done this research. I think that studying the Old Believers, the Raskol, their history, current situation and the gradual lifting of anathemas and even apologies of the MP towards the Old Believers for their cruel treatment, brutal persecution and the injustice of anathematizing the Old-Rite has shown me just how complex issues even of anathemas, schism and violent open conflict really are even over several hundred years!
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 01:56:27 PM »

This following selection from Vladimir Moss book New Zion in Babylon The Orthodox Church in the Twentieth Century gives an interesting look into the history of the Old Believers in the early Twentieth Century. It gives what I see as damning testimony against the Novozybkov Hierarchy who are now called the Russian Old-Orthodox Church not to be confused with the Belokrinitskaya who are called the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church. It is interesting that Archbishop Andrew later joined the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while also remaining an Archbishop within the mainstream Russian Orthodox Church. In doing this research I am curious about what the Belokrinitskaya ecclesiology is? It seems very similar to that of the Old Calendarist Synod in Resistance under Met.Cyprian (Cyprianites) in that the mainstream Church is regarded as having ecclesial grace; world Orthodoxy is still regarded as being the Church.

Archbishop Andrew and the Old Ritualists
As we have seen, Archbishop Andrew was a thorn in the side both of
Metropolitan Peter and of Metropolitan Sergius. In 1922 he had made his Ufa
diocese autonomous on the basis of the Patriarch’s ukaz № 362, and by the
end of his life he had consecrated as many as 40 secret bishops, whose
successors, it is claimed, have survived to the present day. Of hardly less
importance were his controversial relations with the Old Ritualists, which, if
successful, would have ended the 250-year-old schism in the Russian Church.
Just after the February revolution, Archbishop Andrew presided over the
All-Russian Congress of Yedinovertsy (that is, converts to Orthodoxy from
the Old Ritualists who were allowed to retain the Old Rite) in Nizhni-
Novgorod. In May, 1917, together with the future hieromartyr-bishop Joseph
(Petrovykh) and the yedinoverets Protopriest (later bishop and hieromartyr)
Simon (Sheev), he visited the Rogozhskoe cemetery in Moscow, the spiritual
centre of the Belokrinitsky Old Ritualist hierarchy, and handed over a letter
from the Congress expressing a desire for union. However, the reply of the
Old Ritualist bishops was negative.
But Vladyka’s sympathy for the Old Ritualists went further than these
early actions would suggest, and further than the opinion, which was
generally accepted in his time, that the anathemas on the Old Rite were unjust
and should be removed. Influenced by one of his teachers at the Academy,
Professor N. Kapterev, he adopted a still more “liberal” attitude towards the
Old Ritualists that has been a subject of controversy to this day. While
continuing to recognize the pre-revolutionary Church, he considered that it
had fallen into caesaropapism, or the “Niconian heresy” as he called it, and
that it was “Niconianism” that had led to the Russian revolution and to the
renovationist and sergianist submission of the Church to Soviet power. He
often referred to the Orthodox as “Niconians”, while calling the Old Ritualists
“Ancient Orthodox”, whose schism was not a schism, but precisely a protest
against this unlawful encroachment on the freedom of the Church. Therefore
Vladyka Andrew's attempted rapprochement with the Old Ritualists must be
seen in the context of the main struggle of the times - the struggle of the
Church against Soviet power and renovationist and sergianist caesaropapism.
Let us turn to Archbishop Andrew’s own account of his dealings with the
Old Believers:- “In September, 1917 the so-called beglopopovtsi [i.e. those Old
Ritualists who accepted runaway priests from the official Russian Church, but
had no hierarchy of their own] approached me with the request that I become
190 Andreev, Is the Grace of God Present in the Soviet Church?, Wildwood, Alberta: Monastery
Press, 2000, p. 54.
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their bishop. At this time I was in Moscow at the 1917 Council. I agreed in
principle, but on condition that my flock in Ufa should remain in my
jurisdiction. It was Lev Alexeevich Molekhonov who was conducting
negotiations with me on the side of the beglopopovtsi. He assembled in
Moscow a small convention of representatives of other communities of theirs.
At this convention, after long discussions, they agreed that my union with
this group of Old Ritualists should take place in the following manner: I
would come without vestments to the church of the beglopopovtsi in Moscow
(on M. Andronievskaia street). They would meet me with the question: ‘Who
are you?’ I would reply at first that I was a bishop of the Orthodox, One,
Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and them I would read the Symbol of
Faith and a lengthy confession of faith, which everyone ordained to the
episcopate would read. Then I, at the request of the beglopopovtsi, would
anoint myself with the same chrism which they in 1917 called and considered
to be patriarchal, which remained [to them] from Patriarch Joseph [(1642-
1652), the last Moscow Patriarch recognized by both the Orthodox and the
Old Ritualists]. With this my ‘rite of reception’ would come to an end.
“My spiritual father, Archbishop Anthony of Kharkov, knew about all
these negotiations, and Patriarch Tikhon was informed about everything.
They approved my intentions.
“Thus from both sides everything was measured, calculated, thought out
and humanly speaking worked out in a manner completely acceptable for all.
After this I went to Ufa.
“But then the events of 1918 and 1919 took place. The beglopopovtsi lost
me for a long time. I was in Siberia and then in a difficult incarceration… But
in 1925, when I was in exile in Askhabad [in 1923 Archbishop Andrew had
again been arrested and sentenced to three years exile in Central Asia, first in
Ashkhabad, and then in Tashkent], the beglopopovets Archimandrite
Clement came to me and began to ask me again that I should become bishop
for the beglopopovtsi…
“I agreed to do everything that I had promised to L.A. Molekhonov…
Moreover, I agreed to become bishop for the beglopopovtsi only on condition
that Archimandrite Clement should himself receive consecration to the
episcopate and would become de facto an active bishop, for I myself was
chained to Askhabad or some other place for a long time.
“Clement accepted all my conditions and on August 28, 1925 we for the
first time prayed together with him to God in a truly Orthodox, that is, not
caesaropapist church [!]; I on my side had fulfilled everything that I had been
blessed to do by Patriarch Tikhon. On September 3, 1925 I (together with
Bishop Rufinus) consecrated Clement to the episcopate, giving him the
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authority to be my deputy, as it were, as long as I did not enjoy freedom of
movement…
“After this we parted on the same day of September 3.
“But soon I received news from Bishop Clement that the beglopopovtsi
recognised neither me nor him as their bishops and that he, Clement, had
been received in his existing rank into the number of the bishops of the
Belokrinitsky hierarchy.”
The renovationist Vestnik Sviashchennago Sinoda (Herald of the Holy Synod)
reported: "According to the report of Archimandrite Clement, Bishop Andrew
did not agree to the second rite (i.e. chrismation) for a long time, and agreed
only after sustained discussions with, or demands from Clement, based on
the 95th canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (which orders that heretics
should be united to Orthodoxy only through chrismation).
"Archbishop Andrew said the following to Clement before the chrismation:
'It is not your hand that is being lain upon me, but the hand of that patriarch
who consecrated your ancient chrism: when you read the proclamation, and
when I recite the heresies and confession of faith before chrismation, then I
immediately become your bishop and can commune with you. But since I am
your bishop, that means that a priest cannot anoint a bishop.'
"After this, Archbishop Andrew anointed himself with the Old Ritualist
chrism [more exactly: the chrism consecrated by the Orthodox Patriarch
Joseph] and read out the following confession of faith: 'I, Bishop Andrew, of
the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, who was consecrated to the
rank of bishop on October 4, 1907 in front of the holy relics of the Kazan
hierarchs Gurias and Barsanuphius and on the day of their commemoration,
and who am now suffering persecution from the ruling hierarchy for the
freedom of the Church of Christ, confess before the Holy Church that
Patriarch Nicon in his wisdom disrupted the life and love of the Catholic
Church, thereby laying the beginnings of the schism in the Russian Church.
On the basis of Patriarch Nicon's mistake was established that caesaropapism
which has, since the time of Patriarch Nicon, undermined all the roots of
Russian Church life and was finally expressed in the formation of the socalled
'Living Church', which is at present the ruling hierarchy and which has
transgressed all the church canons... But I, although I am a sinful and
unworthy bishop, by the mercy of God ascribe myself to no ruling hierarchy
and have always remembered the command of the holy Apostle Peter:
'Pasture the flock of God without lording it over God's inheritance'."
Hearing about the events in Askhabad, Metropolitan Peter, the patriarchal
locum tenens, banned Archbishop Andrew from serving, although a later
search in the Synodal offices revealed no such decree, as witnessed by a
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Spravka by the Chancellor of the Patriarchal Synod, Archbishop Pitirim of
Dmitrov on October 27, 1927 (№ 1799).
However, Archbishop Andrew was not inclined to obey such a decree,
whether genuine or not; for he considered Metropolitan Peter to be “an
autocrat in clerical guise” who had ascended the ecclesiastical ladder by
means of an intrigue, and the whole system of the succession of power in the
Church by means of secret wills to be uncanonical. Thus he continued to
“ascribe myself to no ruling hierarchy”, and to rule the Ufa diocese on an
autonomous basis until the convening of a Council of the whole Russian
Church, consecrating no less than 40 bishops for the Catacomb Church –
about 30 already by the beginning of 1927.
As regards the supposed ban on Archbishop Andrew by Metropolitan
Peter, we must conclude either, if we are to believe Metropolitan Sergius, that
"it may have been lost on the road", or, much more likely, that it never
existed.
Unfortunately, this supposed ban by Metropolitan Peter caused him to be
distrusted for a time by Archbishop Andrew. Fortunately, however, this
distrust did not last, as we shall see…
Archbishop Andrew returned from exile to Ufa in 1926, and the people
visited their Vladyka in unending streams. However, the Ufa clergy led by
the newly appointed Bishop John met him with hostility and coldness.
One of his parishioners wrote in her diary: "The people search him out and
revere him, and all the parishioners of various churches invite him to them,
while the clergy does not accept him. There are many rumours, and no one
knows what to believe... Bishop Andrew took up his residence in the workers'
quarter on Samara street not far from the Simeonov church. He served in the
Simeonov church, and in such a way, according to another eyewitness, that
"we ascended to heaven and did not want to come down."
In July, 1926, Metropolitan Peter’s deputy, Metropolitan Sergius, renewed
the attack on Archbishop Andrew, and banned him from serving. However,
even if we assume that the charges against him were justified, this ban was
invalid, since it transgressed several canons according to which a bishop must
be first be summoned to trial by bishops, and if he does not obey, he must be
summoned again through two bishops who are sent to bring him, and then a
third time through two bishops, and only when he does not appear the third
time will the Council pronounce its decisions about him. In the case of
Archbishop Andrew, he was not only not invited to a trial, but the sentence
against him was passed, not by a Council, but by a single bishop like himself.
85
For similar reasons, his bans on Catacomb bishops in later years were also
invalid.
Archbishop Andrew wrote: “This Sergius, knowing that I was in Ufa,
wrote to my flock a letter, filled with slander against me, as if I had fallen
away from Orthodoxy, as if I by the second rite had united myself to the
beglopopovtsi, etc. I had no difficulty in proving that this was a lie and that
the deputy of the locum tenens was simply a liar!…
“And so Metropolitan Sergius slandered me, travelling along this welltrodden
path of slander and lies. But in Ufa amidst the ‘Niconians’ there were
some thinking people and they did not believe Sergius’ slander, as they did
not believe Peter’s. Moreover, two things took place which served to help me
personally and help the Church in general.
“At that time I had two vicar-bishops with me – Anthony [Milovidov, of
Ust-Katavsky] and Pitirim [of Nizhegorod, later Schema-Bishop Peter
(Ladygin)]. Both of them wanted to check out everything that related to me in
the matter of the reunion with Old Ritualism. Anthony set off to check things
out in Moscow, obtained the trust of people in the chancellery of the
Patriarchal Synod and personally got into the Synodal archive, so as to study
the documents relating to me.
“You can imagine his surprise when in the spring of 1927 he became
convinced that there were absolutely no documents about me in the Synodal
archives, neither about my ‘departure into schism’, nor about my ‘ban’, etc.
He asked in the Synod what this meant, and received the exceptionally
characteristic reply: ‘Metropolitan Peter was probably only wanting to
frighten Bishop Andrew’!…
“Bishop Pitirim, a 70-year-old monk who used to be on Old Athos, a clever
man, although unlettered, went not to the sergianist Synod, which he did not
recognize, but to Yaroslavl to Metropolitan Agathangelus, so as to tell him
everything concerning Church life in Ufa in detail and to hear his opinion.
Metropolitan Agathangel heard Bishop Pitirim out very attentively for several
hours (two days) and told my vicar-bishop Pitirim (whom I had consecrated
to the episcopate during my first exile in Tedzhent in June, 1925), that he
should not be upset, that my ecclesiastical behaviour was irreproachable and
that only in the interests of ecclesiastical peace he, Metropolitan Agathangel,
advised me not to carry out any hierarchical consecrations but in the interests
of the enlightenment of the flock in Ufa and other faithful sons of the Church,
he, Metropolitan Agathangel, advised me to present my whole ‘case’ before
the judgement of the nearest – at least three – bishops.
“’But this is only my advice, and it will be clearer how to act on the spot,”
said Metropolitan Agathangel to Bishop Pitirim.
86
“Bishop Pitirim, on returning to Ufa, told me about all this, and Bishop
Habbakuk of Old Ufa decided immediately to carry out the advice of
Metropolitan Agathangel and on February 3, 1927 he invited Bishop Pitirim
and Anthony to a convention in Ufa, while he asked me for all the materials
that would explain my ecclesiastical behaviour.
“On February 3, 1927 these three bishops issued under their signatures an
‘Act with regard to the Affair of Archbishop Andrew’, in which they laid out
the circumstances of the affair and came to the conclusion that I had not
‘departed’ anywhere, and that Metropolitan Sergius’ slander was in essence a
light-minded and shameful intrusion into a holy affair.”
From October 3-6, 1927 a diocesan Congress took place in Ufa at which the
“Act” was approved, Archbishop Andrew vindicated “as their true Ufa
archpastor" and Metropolitan Sergius accused of lying. Vladyka Andrew's
own view of his episcopal authority is contained in his reply to the Address of
the clergy-lay assembly of March 26, 1926: "I remain a bishop for those who
recognize me as their bishop, who fed me for the six years I was in prison,
and who need me. I don't impose my episcopate on anyone."
However, Archbishop Andrew’s relations with the Old Ritualists did not
end there. When Vladyka was released from prison in 1931, he began to visit
the Rogozhskoe cemetery again, reasoning “that I am for them not a stranger,
but their own, and I am for them not a hostile and harmful ‘Niconian’, but a
true bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”. It seems that
he then entered into communion with Archbishop Meletius (Kartushin) of
Moscow, the first-hierarch of the Belokrinitsky hierarchy, and together with
him consecrated a secret bishop, Basil Guslinsky.
Then he was again exiled. During this period, on April 1, 1932, priests of
the Belokrinitsky hierarchy sent him the Holy Gifts and an omophorion.
Archbishop Andrew now considered himself to be in full communion with
Archbishop Meletius “in the holy ecclesiastical dogmas, and in prayer, and in
ecclesiastical discipline (that is, in the holy rites)”. At the same time, he
rejected the idea that he had “transferred” to the Belokrinitsky hierarchy, and
insisted on remaining Bishop of Ufa, retaining “full freedom of Church action,
arousing the suspicions of nobody”. Archbishop Meletius appears to have
accepted this condition.
It is difficult to resist the conclusion that the Old Ritualists used the good
intentions of the Orthodox bishop and future hieromartyr to deceive him. He
considered that, as a result of his actions, “the schism, as a schism, has
ideologically speaking come to an end”. But he was tricked by the
beglopopovtsi, who rejected both him and the bishop he had consecrated for
them, Clement. There was not then, and has not been since then, any union
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between the Orthodox Church and the Old Ritualists of the Belokrinitsky
hierarchy. Nor can there be without the repentance of the latter, because,
apart from the fact that the Belokrinitsky hierarchy has no apostolic
succession, it, as the “Andrewites” themselves admit, followed the sergianists
in becoming a tool of Soviet propaganda. 191
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 11:30:44 AM »

In learning more about the Belokrinitskaya and the Old Believers in general I came across this site in English:
http://oldbelievernews.livejournal.com/ . Originally the blog owner had a blog called stnilsorsky blogspot but shut it down recently. His live journal seems to contain info on all Old Believers (Pomortsy, Belokrinitsky, Novozbykov) and has some interesting articles on relations between the MP and the Belokrinitsky as well as what I read to be more strong evidence against the Novozbykov and especially its new status as a parallel Patriarchate under Patriarch Alexander. http://oldbelievernews.livejournal.com/7319.html
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »

Though this link does not apply solely to the Belokrinitsky but to all Old Believers and specifically delves into the reasons and possible factors & reasons for the Raskol (Old Believer Schism) I thought it would be good to post. Should I ever start a topic on the Old Believers in general or just the Raskol I will post it again. For anyone interested in understanding the history of our Faith and of Russian Orthodoxy specifically should give the second Chapter, Old Believers Modernization as Apocalypse, a read!
 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZhwyG9_appMC&dq=Russia+on+the+eve+of+modernity:+popular+religion+and+traditional+culture&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 03:51:59 PM »

There are people in my own Rocor Parish that visit the Old Believers Church in Erie regularly. I am sure it is possible to join them if you are so motivated..

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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 08:17:25 AM »

If I live about a 16 hour drive away from Erie, PA but if I lived within reasonable driving distance I probably would join the parish. However it is not solely out of my admiration for the Russian Old Rite but because the services are in their entirety and include homilies. I grew up in a pretty non-practicing Christian home (we seldom attended Mass). When I became Orthodox I found that I loved to be in Church and went to all the services I could! I understand that there are reasons for making the services shorter though. Who knows? maybe someday I'll try to start an Old Rite Mission? However it would probably seem strange to a lot of people that I would be interested in starting a Russian Old Rite Mission when I'm not Russian and do not come from an Old Rite parish.
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 06:12:05 PM »

I am currently reading a book for a university course, and it reminded me of this thread.  I thought that Lenexa might find it particularly useful.  The first half of the book gives an excellent and approachable survey of the issues surrounding the reforms, with a lot of primary documents translated into English.  The second half of the book is inaccessible unless you know Church Slavonic, which your earlier posts have indicated that you do not.  But I think that you will find the book very useful in your inquiries, as the author is very sympathetic to the Old Believers in the dispute and seems to be arguing in their favor on most fronts.

Russia, Ritual, and Reform: The Liturgical Reforms of Nikon in the 17th Century by Paul Meyendorff.

It was published in the early nineties by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press. It's currently out of print, but the original list price was still a bit steep ($30.00), so even now you can still get a good deal on it.  I hope this is helpful, as I'm finding the book fascinating.

If you click on the cover on Amazon.com, you can get a preview of the contents by scrolling through the pages.
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »

Thank you for the suggestion and I do hope to acquire the book soon. I have read the few chapters available online and found it very informative and interesting. I am trying to learn Church Slavonic but with my hectic schedule progress is very slow.
I recently acquired the Old Orthodox Prayerbook from the ROCOR Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA.
http://marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/storefrontprofiles/processfeed.aspx?sfid=78319&i=242420238&mpid=2031&dfid=1
It is a dual Church Slavonic/English prayerbook which is excellent! I can't tell how useful I have found it and happy just to look at the font and page decoration. I carry with me at work and have found it handy to read the psalms for the various hours. It also contains instruction selections from the Psalter printed during the time of Patriarch Joseph. Also in editing and compiling this Old Orthodox prayerbook several Old Believer sources were consulted including from Belokrinitsky.
I also wanted to provide this link to an article about and photos of an Russian Old-Rite ordination in Oregon for the Belokrinitskaya Old Believers there.
http://synaxis.info/old-rite/Ascension_Church/parish/news_e.html
Asking your prayers!
I pray for you all for this Great Holy Week and a Glorious Pascha!
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 11:04:13 PM »

Here's another book for that course I am taking that seems to be quite good, but again it is out of print so a bit pricey. It's very thorough, but from a secular press, so you're often getting an outsider's perspective on most issues:

Old Believers and the World of Antichrist: Vyg Community and the Russian State, 1694-1855 by Robert O. Crummey.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 01:33:53 AM »








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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 10:28:10 AM »

Христос Воскресе!

Thank you for the pics and book recommendation.
The Vyg Community interests me greatly and I have unfortunately not found much available in English. I really wish that the Pomorsky Answers http://mymartyrdom.com/pomor.htm had been translated into English. I would like to understand the Pomortsy better and what their reasoning and justifications for belonging to a Church that has no Hierarchy and hence no Mysteries save, this is debatable, Baptism, Marriage and Confession. I was appalled that it was amongst the Pomortsy that defamation of St.Seraphim of Sarov was spread stating that he died due to a fire started from his love of smoking tobacco from a pipe. Yet I can't help but find myself amazed at the level of committment the Pomorian communion requires from individual believers who in spite of the modern world have managed to maintain their faith, their way of life.

When I began studying the Belokrinitskaya I assumed that they were somehow much different from the Priestless Old Believers such as the Pomortsy who still view the Modern Russian Patriarchate as being of the Antichrist. I assumed that their separation from the MP was little more than an organizational separation that will soon be remedied. I was very much mistaken. While they have seemed to grow closer toward the MP and other Orthodox such as the Jerusalem Patriarchate their are still many hardliners who consider the MP clergy and all other Orthodox as heretics who are not to be prayed with. I had this idea that the Belokrinitskaya would be like the Greek Old Calendarists under Metropolitan Cyprian, "Cyprianites," who maintain that world Orthodoxy is still the Church and hence has Ecclesial Grace of the Mysteries. While they do respect the apostolic succession they do not seem, from what I have read, to have as definite an ecclesiology addressing the contradiction of accepting a mainline Greek Bishop to re-establish their hierarchy while maintaining and teaching that the world Orthodox have fallen into heresy and hence are not truly Orthodox, not truly Christians. I have great admiration and interest in the Old Believers but I pray that they all do what most of the Old Orthodox folks in Erie, PA did and come back to the fullness of the Church. It would be a great blessing to the Church. I haved experienced first hand the blessings that come with practicing the Russian Old Rite in my private life.

Here is a Church Tour of the Belokrinitskaya Church in Gervais, OR
http://synaxis.info/old-rite/Ascension_Church/parish/church_tour.html
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 06:35:20 PM »

Just wanted to post a link for the recording, "Of Thy Mystical Supper:The Russian Old Rite Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Znamenny Chant," that is now available from the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church in Gervais, Oregon.
You can here a few audio clips here:
http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/pages/CD/new_cd.html
You can buy it online here:
http://orthodoxincense.com/bookstore_080208_1.html
Really beautiful Znamenny Chant in Church Slavonic!
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 01:15:18 PM »

Recently I came across this icon and article about St.Amvrosii Belo-Krinitsa.
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/id22.html
While I am not an Old Believer I cannot help even venerating this man for what he for the Russian Old Rite and those devoted to it's Orthodoxy; to the very Orthodox old Russian culture which flows from it and was finally recognized as having always been so in 1974 by the ROCOR and MP. It saddens me to think that the course Tsar Paul I began was not wholly adopted and speedily but into action in the Russian Orthodox Church which would have avoided this sad schism of the Old Orthodox.
Lord forgive me and have mercy on me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 06:02:59 PM »

Curious and confused ,,,Under Your Avitar It Say's Serbian New Gracanica,Your not happy there... Huh Huh
We Serbs Use Staro Crkveno Slovenski In Holy Liturgy ....
If there was a Old Rite Any where near me i would check it out ,
But wouldn't want to join  it though...... Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 06:28:44 PM »

How can the Old Believers be older in belief, than the mother church In Constantinople where there faith came from originally ......
I can understand at the beginning of the Christianization Russian/Ukrainian peoples some things may of got distorted Or interpreted, wrongly, but still it doesn't make the old believer more traditional or older...than there mother church..... Huh Huh

Conn..Also i can understand after the completion of the christianization of the russian/ukrainian peoples, constantinople was to do reforms to its liturgies, then it could be said they have the original version that there mother had before the reforms,it just makes them traditional but not older....Anyone explain.... Grin Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 06:53:06 PM »

Please forgive me for my last post. After looking over it I see that my language was a bit garbled.
Curious and confused ,,,Under Your Avitar It Say's Serbian New Gracanica,You not happy there... Huh Huh
We Serbs Use Staro Crkveno Slovenski In Holy Liturgy ....
If there was a Old Rite Any where near me i would check it out ,
But wouldn't want to join  it though...... Grin

I am currently going to a Serbian Church under Bishop Longin of the New Gracanica diocese. In the Serbian church I attend, St.George in Lenexa, KS, the Liturgy is primarily in Serbian but with English and Staro Crkveno Slovenski (Old Church Slavonic) mixed in. It's about 60-70% Serbian, 20-30% English and usually 10% Church Slavonic but really short portions in Church Slavonic are basically the same in Serbian. It is my understanding that most Serbian Churches in the US use the Serbian language or English language.
I am happy at St.George in Lenexa. I am not of Serbian heritage but I feel strongly that the Julian Calendar should be followed whenever possible, that is as a layman. However since I moved here to Kansas a few years ago and started attending a Serbian Church I have grown very fond of Serbian Orthodox culture. It is similar to other Slavic Orthodox but in several ways is distinct.
However, I having been studying the Russian Old Rite and its history and feel strongly that the Russian Old Rite is to my preference as I would like for the Church Services to be performed in full with no omissions and with the liturgical homilies. At home I use an Old Rite prayerbook and make the Sign of the Cross with two fingers and follow the rules for when to bow and make prostrations.
Don’t get me wrong, I am Orthodox and I don’t intend to become a member of the Old Believer churches separated from the MP and all other Patriarchates. It is not about the Church Slavonic language primarily though I do think it would be better to continue using Church Slavonic in Church Services instead of switching entirely to English. For example the Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA (ROCOR) several years ago switched to having their Church Services entirely in English but are still using the Russian Old Rite for their Church Services. They simply translated all the Old Rite texts into English. A good way to see a side by side translation is the Old Orthodox Prayerbook published by the Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity Bookstore which is in both Church Slavonic and English.
After studying the history of the Old Rite and the Raskol over the Nikonian Reforms I’ve come to see that there was, as the MP and ROCOR have admitted, no good reason for the anathematizing of the Russian Old Rite and the forcing of all the churches and monasteries to implement the Nikonian Reforms. This is because the justification for the Reforms was that they believed the Russian Old Rite to be wrong and defective from the accretion of errors over the years of copying books. This has not only proven to be false and that the Russian Old Rite is actually based off a different recension of the Greek Rite which is why it is different but study has shown that there never was any great investigation by the supporters of the Nikonian Reforms of the many old books and manuscripts brought to Moscow to be used to implement these reforms of the Russian Old Rite.
I could go on but the point is that the Raskol was the result of a great injustice and implemented so forcefully and maliciously that it cannot have been according to the will of God. It is a blessing from God that the Russian Old Rite is now recognized again by the Russian Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Churches and that communion is being restored with Old Believers.

















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« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2010, 07:13:40 PM »

How can the Old Believers be older in belief, than the mother church In Constantinople where there faith came from originally ......
I can understand at the beginning of the Christianization Russian/Ukrainian peoples some things may of got distorted Or interpreted, wrongly, but still it doesn't make the old believer more traditional or older...than there mother church..... Huh Huh

Conn..Also i can understand after the completion of the christianization of the russian/ukrainian peoples, constantinople was to do reforms to its liturgies, then it could be said they have the original version that there mother had before the reforms,it just makes them traditional but not older....Anyone explain.... Grin Grin

This is just a name given to those who opposed the Nikonian Reforms and chose to continue using the Russian Old Rite. Since they continued using the Old Rite they came to be called Old Believers or Believers in the Russian Old Rite.
It has nothing to with any claim to having a heritage that is older than Constantinople. But the Russian Old Rite is much older than reformed Greek Rite of Constantinople.
Also St.Andrew the First-Called Apostle did visit Russia.
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« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2010, 07:18:46 PM »

This other greek rite you mentioned would also  of been in serbia ,bulgaria ,macadionia ,ever in romania ,,we share almost the same lenght of being christinized serbia,romainia,bulgaria,macidonia,, i think its 1.200 yrs..
For russia and ukrainia and others around that area i think its 1000 yrs...Since the Balkan States have 200yrs ahead of russ/ukrainia..we would of had this different rite but we don't ,it's the byzatine rite we have and thats two hundred years before russia and ukrainia... Grin Huh
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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2010, 07:30:03 PM »

I wonder if the rites of the Balkan churches were brought into line with those of the Greek churches at the same time as the Nikonian reforms.
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2010, 07:34:03 PM »

Since we are older than russ/ukrainia ,you can't go wrong stick with the srbs.... Grin
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 07:52:08 PM »

I wonder if the rites of the Balkan churches were brought into line with those of the Greek churches at the same time as the Nikonian reforms.

The best person to ask is Fr.Deacon Serb...He Can tell you if there were reforms done amongst the Balkan Orthodox...Father Knows Best.... Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 07:16:03 PM »

All of the other Orthodox fell under Latin and Greek influence and were influenced by the historical developments, innovations, and additions implemented by Constantinople especially during the time of the Balkans being under the Ottomans and the Ukraine was under the Lithuanians and Poles. However, as I said before, the Serbs have preserved much within their culture that is distinct, such as celebrating Vaskrs (Pascha) Liturgy in the morning, after sunrise, rather than at Midnight. But the Serbs did not receive the same recension of the Greek Rite as the Russians in the first place.
We aren't talking about whose the "Most Orthodox" we are talking about fidelity to the Rites received and the Russians didn't receive the exact same Rite as the Balkans. Christianization came long before the formal adoption and standardization of Typikons/Rites and practices/customs.
Also keep in mind the reforms that I am talking about have a lot to do with omitting parts of the Liturgy and all Liturgical services particularly by omitting the bows, prostrations, Psalms of the Divine Liturgy, the Kathismas appointed for Matins and Vespers, and the Liturgical Homilies. The only Church Service I know of that was substantially changed in form and text is the Service of Proskomedia which is done very differently in the Russian Old Rite from the Greek Rite.
The pictures on this webpage will show you what I mean.
http://community.livejournal.com/old_believer/34662.html
Yes the differences are actually quite minor when those following the Greek Reformed Rites, such as at monasteries, do not make any omissions but remember we are not just talking about Liturgy we are talking the Old Rite and it's followers, the Old Believers, opposition to the influence of baroque and generally westernized iconography, westernized chanting, Latin views about Theology, modernist influence on society/community, and the drive to turn away from the Holy Venerable Tradition of Holy Rus, the Old Rite, and from Orthodoxy itself even.

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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 07:42:14 PM »

There is or was a group in the Balkan called Bogomilci hope it's spelled correctly ...I'm not sure if they were home grown or escaped persecution from Russia and Ukrainian...They were or still in Bulgaria ,Roumania Serbia Macedonia..If your familiar with this sect and can shed some light on it... Grin
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2010, 06:37:58 PM »

I'm really not sure who you are referring to here?
I think that you are referring to the Bogomils about whom I am not very familiar but here is a link to a wiki article about them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism
I can definitely tell you that they have nothing to do with the Old Believers. The Old Believers were not at mixed with native superstitions or occult practices and magic that existed amongst various peasants in Russia and lasted even until our times. They were dedicated Christians who fought against people go to local peasant sorcerers for help.
There is another group that emerged in Serbia which is Serbian homegrown call the Bogomoljci which sprung up in the early twentieth century in Serbia and was an Orthodox Union of Christian Brotherhoods which really revived ancient Christianity as a way of life. It was mostly young people who followed Christ embracing poverty, helping people, preaching the word of God, singing spiritual songs, and frequently attending the Divine Services, especially the Liturgy, at Church. Bishop Nikolai Velimirovic became their bishop for a time. Blessed Euphemia, the great pious Abbess who revived Serbian Womens monasticism and who reposed at Ravanitsa Monastery July 21/August 3 6966/1958 had been a member of this movement in her youth. Her hagiography is one of my favorite books!
See I am happy with Serbian Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 04:36:52 AM »

Lenexa,

Just noticed this thread. You might find some of these to be interesting reading:

Popovtsy Churches: Part 1 of 5

Bespopovtsy Communities: Part 2 of 5

Sekstanstvo (Sectarian) Bodies - Dukhovnye Khristiane: Part 3 of 5

Sekstanstvo (Sectarian) Bodies - The Eretiki (Heretics): Part 4 of 5

Unrelated Movements Contemporaneous with those of Old Ritualists: Part 5 of 5

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2010, 05:58:50 PM »

Thanks Irish Melkite.
Those are interesting links. I still have trouble understanding how some Old Believers accepted the Papacy but it has been difficult for me to learn much at all without knowing Russian or Church Slavonic. It has been slow but I am slowly learning more and more even learning Old Church Slavonic bit by bit.
Recently I found this translation of St.Avvakum's autobiography and bought it. http://www.amazon.com/Archpriest-Avvakum-written-Michigan-Translations/dp/0930042336/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277329951&sr=8-1
Of course I can't judge how good the translation is but I have already read most of this most famous of Russian Autobiographies and found that he had already given advice in it to Old Believers on how to survive without bishops and even priests should the situation arise even explaining how to receive Communion from the reserved Host carried with oneself.  The book also includes some good explanatory articles about St.Avvakum and the Raskol.
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2010, 02:42:04 PM »


Archbishop Mark of Berlin (ROCOR) talking with Metropolitan Andrian (Russian Orthodox Old Rite AKA Belokrinitsky)
I wish I could know what they discussed. Unfortunately Metropolitan Andrian died shortly after becoming Metropolitan being succeeded by the current Metropolitan Kornily. Though it has been quite a while since I posted on this topic I thought I would post this link. It is in Russian but with the Google translator you can get an average translation which will help to understand the ecclesiology of the Belokrinitsky.
http://tuinov.narod.ru/iepapxia.html#5
Though I have to say that unless you can read and speak Russian I don't think that you can come to any real conclusive understanding of their ecclesiology as precision in wording is necessary to correctly understand such a complex ecclesiology.
At the same website you can find a biography of Metropolitan Alimpie below:
http://tuinov.narod.ru/alimpi_gusev.html
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2010, 01:56:56 AM »

I want to revive this, I've also recently become interested in the Old-Rite, and their points seem very convincing, I wonder what the typical Orthodox response to them is, I haven't been able to find anything.
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2010, 02:12:04 AM »

Response to what? To history?
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2010, 02:15:51 AM »

Response to the Old-Rite's arguments of Greek reform under the Ottomans, and the old sign of the cross often depicted in old Byzantine mosaics and icons, among other things.
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2010, 05:33:00 PM »

Response to the Old-Rite's arguments of Greek reform under the Ottomans, and the old sign of the cross often depicted in old Byzantine mosaics and icons, among other things.
Well there are many responses to the Old Believers but few have ever been translated into English but neither have the Pomorsky Answers arguing that the MP has apostasized with the rest of world Orthodoxy to Antichrist and that God has chosen to take the Priesthood away from the Church leaving only the general priesthood of all believers. St.Dimitry of Rostov wrote against them using his knowledge of Greek to argue against their adamently sticking to the pre-nikonian form of the Name of our Lord "ICYC" instead of the post-nikonian IHCYC. I am still thinking about this issue of the Name of our Lord and whether it is better in English and Romance languages to use the Name as Isus (ee-sous) instead of Iisus, Iesus (ee-yay-sous) or Jesus.
However I have to say that the Old Rite primarily argues that the fall of Greek Orthodoxy came about earlier in the time of their capitulation to the Latins in the Union of Florence-Ferrara in 1433. Before the Nikonian Reforms the Ukrainians had adopted the curriculum of the Latins particularly Scholasticism most notably in Kiev. With Nikon came the changing of liturgical practices mandated by the Stoglav Council. He even changed the very way devout Russians signed the cross upon themselves and the very spelling of the Name of Our Lord. He seemed to be adulterating and changing the faith to destroy it from within. The destruction of Orthodoxy in Russia meant that Orthodoxy would cease to exist anywhere in the minds of Russians who considered the Greeks Faith to be impure. They saw the Nikonian Reforms as the work of Antichrist! The little changes were all it took to create a false faith and remove Christ, the Mysteries, from the laity! Scary isn't it! Devotion to Christ and Apocalyptic fear is what motivated the Old Believers. Nikon was even removed eventually but the reforms he began were continued and then forced on the Russian people by foreign bishops and Tsar Alexei. They used brute force on those who openly resisted. After all that I've read, especially the Autobiography of Avaakum & the objective history of the period of the Raskol, especially about those martyred by the forces of Tsar Alexei, and using an Old Rite Prayerbook, Gospel Commentary, Lestovka and Horologion the Russian Old Rite was not in need of great reform such as Nikon imposed but was a venerable and beautiful form of Orthodoxy which those who became the Old Believers clung to so adamantly and only more so after the reforms because of the brutal persecutions they were forced to endure simply for defending the legitimate Rites and Practices of their ancestors and the great Saints of Russia before them such as St.Sergius. How would they feel submitting to foreign bishops who've anathematized the very way of making the sign of the Cross which numerous Saints used? Finallly in the Twentieth Century many Russians especially clergymen came to the inevitable conclusion that the anathemas of the council of 1666 against the Old Rite were illegitimate and the persecution of the Old Believers a great historical injustice. In the 1970s the ROCOR and MP both, though separate and not recognizing each other at the time, admitted this and even asked the forgiveness of the Old Believers!
I came to be particularly interested in the Belokrinitsky because they are much different from the Bezpopovsty in their views, they bear similarities to the Old Calendarists, and because I wanted to know more about the history of the Old Believers who restored a hierarchy, by a Greek Bishop, and continued to use all the old Russian Liturgical books and practice their rites exactly as they were three-hundred-and-fifty years ago. I also wondered if it might be possible for the Belokrinitsky, that is the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church under Met. Kornily of Moscow and the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church under Met. Leonty of Braila to enter into talks with the MP and possibly reconcile and restore communion with "world Orthodoxy"?
Unfortunately after the reading I've done it looks VERY unlikely that we will see such a thing happen. The internal divisions amongst those Old Believers under Belokrinitsky bishops and particularly the divisions between Met. Leonty and Archbishop Sofroni within the Lipovan Orthodox Old Rite Church. Archbishop Sofrony presides over the communities in Australia, Oregon and Alaska. He has been accused of immoral actions, Ecumenism, and insubordination by Met. Leonty. There is still the division in Australia with a parish Church which split in two halves with one halve not submitting to the Lipovan Bishop and then gaining the support of the Russian Orthodox Old Rite bishops. So there is a situation in Australia of over-lapping jurisdiction which transgresses the canons in a terrible way! From what I understand there is also a growing divide between the Lipovan and Russian Belokrinitsky churches that has come about over the past fifteen years do to squabbling and disagreements over territory.  Within the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church there is much difference of opinion about how to deal with the MP with some adamantly maintaining that they are heretics with whom they must have nothing to do. Others seem to think that there should be much more dialogue with the MP and enter into an active collaboration with the MP in exerting influence on the Russian Govt. & Nation.
To simply return to your original statement I don't want to have a repeat of an already argued topic of the Sign of the Cross and whether the two-fingered method, now alone practiced by those who use the Russian Old Rite, is the original way of blessing and of signing yourself. I think the abundant iconography leaves no doubt about this but of course people will always argue.
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2010, 06:07:53 PM »

 Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... Huh
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2010, 11:02:02 PM »

Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... Huh
To be honest I do prefer the two fingers for the dual natures of Christ tracing the Cross because it is Christ not the whole Trinity which was crucified. However the pinky, ring, and thumb equally are touched affirming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity who the Sacrifice on the Cross was offered up to. The practice of using the Trinitarian formula with the Sign of the Cross, that is three fingers saying In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit came to Orthodoxy from Latin influence. It is true that we are baptized using the Trinitarian Formula but the practice of using it with the Sign of the Cross was not common to Orthodoxy until the Modern era from what I've read and understand. Below is a text often cited to show that the modern practice of the Sign of the Cross as practiced in Orthodoxy actually comes from the Latins. Note below that this is a Medieval Pope who is telling them to make the Sign of the Cross with Three Finger from RIGHT TO LEFT which is unlike the modern Latin practice of Left to Right.

Pope Innocent III (1198–1216) gave the following instruction:
The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. ... This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth, and from the Jews (right) He passed to the Gentiles (left). Others, however, make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because from misery (left) we must cross over to glory (right), just as Christ crossed over from death to life, and from Hades to Paradise. [Some priests] do it this way so that they and the people will be signing themselves in the same way. You can easily verify this — picture the priest facing the people for the blessing — when we make the sign of the cross over the people, it is from left to right...


Personally I prefer to say the Jesus Prayer while making the Sign of the Cross with Two fingers. Forehead- Gospodi, Belly - Isusa Hriste, Right Shoulder- Sine Bozhe, Left- Pomilui Nash. But I have no problem with saying "In Nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti." What I have to emphasize again and again is that it was NOT the Old Believers who made the Sign of the Cross a matter of Life and Death it was the REFORMERS WHO ANATHEMATIZED AND PERSECUTED PEOPLE FOR USING TWO FINGERS in the Sign of the Cross! What was the big deal? In the West some use five fingers for the five wounds of Christ, some use the index and middle together straight leaving the thumb out and the ring and pinky bent to the palm and I don't know where that came from, some use three fingers, some just leave their hand open with fingers not together and will just touch lightly using their middle finger. Yes Roman Catholicism is heresy but I'm just pointing out that people can hold the same faith and have varying individual practices. It really is still shocking to me all the fighting over making the sign of the Cross with two fingers! They even denied the Sainthood of Anna of Kashin over this issue when she had already been declared a Saint after they uncovered her relics and found her right hand in the form of using the two fingered sign which the Old Believers took as a great sign to validate their cause.
Lord Have Mercy if I go too far but often it is those who seek reform who are overly strict, brute and harsh rather than those who are traditional resist any un-necessary reform that would introduce innovation to the detriment of the faith.
I hope that this helped. I know it wasn't a quick straight answer.
Please pray for me.
When you pray for me you can make the Sign of the Cross with two or three fingers as long as you are giving Right-Glory! as long as you are Orthodox!
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2010, 01:24:05 AM »

Thank you very much for this information, I appreciate it immensely.
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2010, 10:59:50 AM »

I want to revive this, I've also recently become interested in the Old-Rite, and their points seem very convincing, I wonder what the typical Orthodox response to them is, I haven't been able to find anything.

Rocor has an Old-Rite Parish in Erie PA. I know people who travel there frequently and attend services.

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 10:20:51 PM »

I'm glad people are interested Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2010, 08:51:34 AM »

Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.   

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« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2010, 09:56:02 AM »

I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
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« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2010, 10:05:02 AM »

Recent visit of Met. Cornelius to Tiraspol, Rep. of Moldova:

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« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2010, 01:42:20 PM »

Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.

Thanks for posting this. It was great getting more insight into the Erie, PA parish and its history. I didn't realize they came fro ma priestless group.

Last year I met a student at the university I was attending that was baptized as an Old Believer in Russia as an infant by one of the sects with priests. He wasn't in any way practicing, but it was interesting asking him a few questions. He was an absolutely brilliant scholar, especially for his age.
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« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2010, 03:20:48 PM »

one of the sects with priests?
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« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2010, 06:07:54 PM »

Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2010, 06:47:31 PM »

I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
In the beginning I had hoped that the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy would be the focus of the topic. That is why I kept posting the information I did. Unfortunately most Orthodox laity outside of the former Russian Empire and Romania have not even heard of Old Believers and less than 0.1% have heard of the Belokrinitsky. Due to the lack of knowledge many people made comments and associations that have to do with all Old Believers, with Edinoverie, with ROCOR, with whether or not the Old Rite is correct, etc.
What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.
Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
one of the sects with priests?
Perhaps he did not know if it was by a priest under the Novozybkov Hierarchy AKA "Old Orthodox MP"?
Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.
This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
I don't think this is really fair to state that lack of unity "even amongst themselves" is evidence of sectarian nature. This is the same argument Atheists, Agnostics, and others libel Christianity with when they attack us lumping RCs, Protestants, Non-Chalcedonians, Nestorians, and others into the same boat with us as Christians.
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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2010, 06:51:00 PM »

It is an odd thing to read on a forum that has a separate section for non-chalcedonians.

As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.

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For this reason, then, we require greater attention and consideration in order to investigate how precisely we ought to live, and what is the true piety. For it is plain that, from the very reason that truth is difficult and arduous of attainment, questions arise from which spring the heresies, savouring of self-love and vanity, of those who have not learned or apprehended truly, but only caught up a mere conceit of knowledge. With the greater care, therefore, are we to examine the real truth, which alone has for its object the true God. And the toil is followed by sweet discovery and reminiscence.

On account of the heresies, therefore, the toil of discovery must be undertaken; but we must not at all abandon [the truth]. For, on fruit being set before us, some real and ripe, and some made of wax, as like the real as possible, we are not to abstain from both on account of the resemblance. But by the exercise of the apprehension of contemplation, and by reasoning of the most decisive character, we must distinguish the true from the seeming.
Blessed Clement of Alexandria
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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2010, 07:11:35 PM »

Quote
What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.

Vladyka Andrei was not completely truthful neither with us, nor with the Novozybkovsky christians, who he also attempted to join. While we thought that he joined us, he saw it as the fact that we joined him. Later this was realized... and that's why he ended up staying with the catacombists, forming the andrewite branch (who were basically yedinovertsy). That branch still exists in the eastern Russia (though dying out). I have not studied the issue enough to explain everything in detail but I can read up on it and get back at you. To be honest I don't have much interest in catacombists.

Quote
Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
I do but don't want to go into detail here, because the issue is usually blown out of proportion on the internet. All I'll say is that the conflict will be resolved at the quickly approaching Romanian Council.
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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2010, 11:45:09 PM »

As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.

I would retract the post if I could. It's hard to balance truth with grace, and I aim at peace with all men. Forgive me for any offense.
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« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2010, 06:24:27 PM »

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent website with good articles concerning Old Orthodoxy:
archeodox.wordpress.com
It contains a hagiography of the Belokrinitsky St.Joseph of the Far East.
http://archeodox.wordpress.com/category/lives-of-saints/
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« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2010, 07:11:22 PM »

I just wanted to point out that there is an excellent website with good articles concerning Old Orthodoxy:
archeodox.wordpress.com
It contains a hagiography of the Belokrinitsky St.Joseph of the Far East.
http://archeodox.wordpress.com/category/lives-of-saints/


What kind clerical Garb is he wearing looks kind of latin... Huh with the little cape...
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« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2010, 07:12:54 PM »

What kind clerical Garb is he wearing looks kind of latin... Huh with the little cape...

LOL
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« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2010, 09:47:51 PM »

It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).
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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2010, 10:00:43 PM »

It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).



I've Never seen Serbian Monks or Priests or Bishops wear something like that,,Has to be Latin Influence In the Russian Church I read the latins influenced Russian Orthodoxy from the 17 century onward...Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2010, 10:17:27 PM »

Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2010, 10:30:31 PM »


Some srbs did seek out Latin traditions some of our medieval Churches Have what they tries to pass off as gargoyles on them disgusting and ugly they are..



Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2010, 10:40:48 PM »

So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

Quote
6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.
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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2010, 10:43:55 PM »

So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

Quote
6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.

Orthodox Catholic but some Latin Influence For sure.... Grin
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2010, 10:52:15 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2010, 10:58:39 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...

Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  Grin
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2010, 11:01:19 PM »

Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:

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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2010, 11:05:10 PM »

Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:



This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2010, 11:19:57 PM »

This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above...

Only because of the Birch.
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« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2010, 11:32:58 PM »

This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above...

Only because of the Birch.

Serbija ,Bulgarija, Makadonija, the balkans are Orthodox  For One thousand Two Hundred Years...And i never seen that Getup ever...What Does Russija Okrajina Have Only One Thousand yrs Of Holy Orthodoxy....Humm Also Where older than the Old believers are...
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« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2010, 12:44:40 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

I second.
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« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2010, 01:02:31 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

I second.

Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.
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« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2010, 01:35:32 AM »

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.
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« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2010, 05:49:11 AM »

Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...

The Church in the basement has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.

I second.

Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.

The Church in the basements has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.
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« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2010, 06:23:00 AM »

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.

How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... Huh Huh
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« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »

St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...

Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  Grin

Xenos has more than adequately addressed this topic and done the research for you. He has clearly demonstrated that the origin of the half-mantle is not at Latin. Just because Russian bishops of official Church stopped wearing the half-mantle while Latin bishops continue to wear it, although this is not the norm since Vatican II, does not in anyway make it Latin. Why do Orthodox do this to themselves? Why do we attribute things to the Latins and not do the research?
What you wrote above is really upsetting.
You are making an assumption which is false and not doing the research to even see if you are right! No, the Church for the first several hundred years was not marked by some East vs West split. There were conflicts and differences that emerged during the first millenia but many of these were within Western Europe due to the Germanic peoples. Pope St.Martin the Confessor and St.Maximos are a great example of how East and West were not split during the first millenia of the Church. The differences in Liturgical vestments is something that has evolved over time but even the differences in the Bishops Mitre and the wearing of mantles and half mantles is not an East vs. West split! The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre and the wearing of the Mantle has been adequately shown to originate from early-Christian Monasticism in the Middle East.
Please don't take the Modern state of things and then impose it on history.
Please don't make fun of the clothing worn by St.Joseph of the Far East just because he was an Old Believer bishop that you don't agree with!
The man was so highly regarded that even the local MP bishop went to his funeral and made a prostration.

Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.

How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... Huh Huh

Xenos has already explained the Eastern origin of the half-mantle. Russian Christianity was strongly influenced by Monasticism and faithfully maintained absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typikon. The Old Believers still maintain absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typicon.
Please don't judge whose Orthodox based on appearances alone.
There have been alot of heretics who looked very Orthodox.

Please just do some reading and learn the history of the Church. Take the time to learn why the Old Believers left the MP so long ago and maybe you will start to see things in a new light?



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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2010, 10:06:32 PM »

Lenexa,

I just started reading this thread and find it fascinating.  For years the Old Believer Prayer Book was what I used for my services, and to this day I still make the sign of the cross with two fingers (to the amusement of my priest, but he has not told me to stop).  Like you, I settled in the Serb Church under +Longin, and I have a Priest that is very traditional, as well as sympathetic to the Old Believers.  I am about three hours North of you in Omaha.  I think people from my Church were down at yours for some festival a couple of months ago.
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« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2010, 10:35:58 PM »





The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2010, 12:50:43 AM »





The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....

You think some of the practices in the Church of Constantinople and Serbia have always been around? Remember, some of the clothing that many priests wear were adopted from the Turks such as the Rassa. The Old Rite faith is what the great Saints of the Russian Church before Nikon would have been familiar with such as St. Sergius of Radonezh, Sts. Sergius and Herman of Valaam (founders of Valaam Monastery), St. Nilus of Sora, St. Cyril of Belozersk, St. Sabbatius of Solovki, St. Alexander Nevsky, ect. would have all practiced in the same way that Old Ritualists do today. So, are you saying that they weren't Orthodox or traditional enough since they did the Sign of the Cross with two fingers and practiced all the other aspects that you find among Old Ritualists? The reforms were not necessary and in fact, Constantinople never suggested that the Russians had to reform their practices.

The historical evidence has already been provided but you choose to ignore it apparently.
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2010, 05:50:29 AM »

The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else. . .

Roll Eyes

The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...

That is, to a rite which was newer and contained innovations. Old Believers of the 17th century followed the same reasoning as you follow today. Let me quote your posts from another thread:
Changes are a No No.... Grin
I Hate Changes......

Btw, stashko, if I may ask, is there any hidden meaning behind your peculiar use of uppercase and lowercase letters?
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« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2010, 06:03:37 AM »

The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre. . .

Well, not really. As far as I know, Armenian bishops adopted the Latin-like mitre around the time of the crusades and in the Coptic Church it is priests, not bishops, who wear a hat (called kalanzoa) similar to the Latin mitre.
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« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2010, 06:18:31 PM »

The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre. . .

Well, not really. As far as I know, Armenian bishops adopted the Latin-like mitre around the time of the crusades and in the Coptic Church it is priests, not bishops, who wear a hat (called kalanzoa) similar to the Latin mitre.

I have to admit I was wrong on this one. You are right.
But still my point is more that you should not make assumptions about the first millenia of Christianity based on what happened during the second millenia. And really, I still say this, I don't think that the liturgical vestments are just an East OR West dichotomy. The vestments of the Copts, Syriacs and Ethiopians being a prime example of the differences WITHIN the East. The hats discussed that are worn by the priests are below:


The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
Just like the Serbs. Nothing traditional about them, just a group of Slavs who adopted a Greek Rite in Middle Ages. They must have distorted it though because Constantinople doesn't have Vigil every Saturday Evening.
 Cheesy
Why are you so stubborn and rude about this issue? You are making a fool of yourself because you clearly don't know what you are talking about! Any study of the Russian Old Rite (the Jerusalem Typicon), the Nikonian Reforms and the liturgical reforms made by the Patriarchate of Constantinople over time will see that Russia was simply remaining faithful to the Typicon. This has been so thorougly proven it is simply stubborn and rude to deny it.
Please read and be thoughtful! Don't simply do what I know is popular amongst American Neo-Conservatives and Serbian Fascists and think with your gut.
This article by Nikita Simmons is good over-view about the Russian Old Rite.
http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/finland/presentation_2007.html

A photo of the Oko Tserkovnoe (Eye of the Church) AKA Jerusalem Typikon as it is place on the Iconostas in the Russian Old Rite Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR.


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« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2010, 10:18:00 PM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

Just ignore him (or learn to love him)!  Cheesy  Grin Smiley
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« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2010, 10:31:20 PM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

Just ignore him (or learn to love him)!  Cheesy  Grin Smiley


He wants What he believes is Older and traditional, but it's really is a distorted version of Holy Orthodoxy ,that got distorted when [Tsarigrad] Constantinople was Christianizing russ/ukrainia..The Holy Patriarch Noticed that and tried to correct it for them,they refused the correction and kept the distortion as Traditional...What can i say, he wants  it ,Go For it...I Prefer  The Genuine Old Calender Greek Orthodox Church ,they at Least they Kept the Correct Form thats been Preached, Taught given to the Balkans and the World..... Grin
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« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2010, 11:07:53 PM »

Stashko, did you know that our bishops have broken with earlier tradition by adding the crowns that they wear to their vestments?
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« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2010, 11:18:20 PM »



http://www.musicarussica.com/discdet.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-response=discdet.lasso&-layout=CD_detail&-RecID=35745&-search

I just received this album in the mail today, and I absolutely love it! I really wish that Slavic parishes sounded like this versus the newer "concert" polyphony that many of them use (not that that cannot be beautiful as well). It just sounds so much closer to Byzantine chant in many ways, and seems to better match the monastic ethos and the aesthetics of the iconography than the more "choral" style (whatever it is officially called is beyond me).

Lenexa, if you don't have this, I should burn it off for you and we can meet up sometime. You can show me how the heck you're even supposed to the sign-of-the-cross that way.
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2010, 12:41:03 AM »

Stashko, did you know that our bishops have broken with earlier tradition by adding the crowns that they wear to their vestments?

The word Tsari Grad means in serbian Kings City For Constantinople....I would say that the Patriarch and the state  King/Emperor worked Hand in Hand that could be where the tradition came from, for the Miter crown ....Adding a tradition has nothing to do with keeping a distorted Practice,, once it's been revealed that it isn't quite right what the mother church Brought to them in the Beginning....

I am going to bow out from this thread.....

People that want that Version of Orthodoxy Go For It .......

But as for Me And Mine ,
we will Stick to The Authentic Holy Orthodoxy Given to us 200 yrs earlier than Russija /Okrainija...... Grin
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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2010, 12:44:54 AM »

Ill Stick to The Authentic one Given to us 200 yrs earlier ...... Grin

You mean back when Serbia was under Latin missionaries?  Shocked
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2010, 12:57:07 AM »

Ill Stick to The Authentic one Given to us 200 yrs earlier ...... Grin

You mean back when Serbia was under Latin missionaries?  Shocked

Some of our Rulers or ruler did kiss up to rome ,can't deny that, but that didn't lead anywhere ....Where still Orthodox...Ha Ha Ha... Grin Bowing out Now...
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2010, 02:00:16 AM »

I know how you feel, but don't let stashko get to you - he's always like this.

There is a certain comic which, I believe, well illustrates stashko's behaviour online. I won't post it here because it contains the F-word, but if anyone wants to see it, just type "Trollface - Encyclopedia Dramatica" in Google search engine, follow the first link and then open the graphic file with "The original comic" caption.
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2010, 03:08:49 AM »

Many of the most recent posts on this thread have become somewhat personal and/or irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Knock it off and get back on topic. For those who may have forgotten what the topic is, please refer to this thread's title.

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« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2010, 07:45:52 PM »

Many of the most recent posts on this thread have become somewhat personal and/or irrelevant to the topic of discussion. Knock it off and get back on topic. For those who may have forgotten what the topic is, please refer to this thread's title.

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Agree completely!
Please allow me one comment not directed at the author of recent messages but for the education of others in relation to speculation about Serbian Patriarchate having maintained fidelity to what it received from Constantinople while the Old Rite was a distortion.
The Serbian Patriarchate, as anyone can read from history, has suffered perhaps more than any other jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church! After her Glorious rise in the Middle Ages she fell under severe persecution from the Ottoman Turks only to rise again in 1577 after having thoroughly submitted to Ottoman rule and interference in Church governance. In 1766 the Serbian Patriarchate was again abolished and a period of direct rule by the Phanar commenced and lasted several generations with even the local bishops being Greeks of the Patriarchate of Constantinople! For several hundred years the Serbs were an oppressed nation of Orthodox Slavs with Catholic Croats to their West, Albanian Muslims fiercely loyal to the Sultan to the immediate South, and the power of the Catholic Habsburg to the North and North-West.
It is nearly impossible to imagine that being directly subject to the Patriarchate of Constantinople spiritually and the Ottoman Turks in the world that the Serbs could've ever successfully completely resisted the successive liturgical reforms of Constantinople as well as the liturgical influences exerted from the Catholics. However to this day the Serbs maintain various traditions that survive to this day which such as celebrating Vaskrs (Pascha) Liturgy in the morning after sunrise and the growing of wheat grass in small bowl or vase from the Feast of St.Barbara or St.Nikola (Nicholas) until the Nativity (Christmas).


http://www.musicarussica.com/discdet.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-response=discdet.lasso&-layout=CD_detail&-RecID=35745&-search

I just received this album in the mail today, and I absolutely love it! I really wish that Slavic parishes sounded like this versus the newer "concert" polyphony that many of them use (not that that cannot be beautiful as well). It just sounds so much closer to Byzantine chant in many ways, and seems to better match the monastic ethos and the aesthetics of the iconography than the more "choral" style (whatever it is officially called is beyond me).

Lenexa, if you don't have this, I should burn it off for you and we can meet up sometime. You can show me how the heck you're even supposed to the sign-of-the-cross that way.
I have a copy and I listen to it regularly. Nikita Simmons from http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/research/simmons/simmons.html was heavily involved in the production and it seems to have paid off! But what do I know? I have very little musical training and can't sing to save my life. Still I know I love it and listen to the Otche Nash and Dostoinno yEst from this CD almost every night. It has helped me to memorize prayers in Church Slavonic and call forth these prayers and the Znamenny Chant they are sung in very easily which can be helpful and comforting. I often quietly sing these prayers when walking as I can hear/remember the music/chant from the CD.
It is really easy to make the two-fingered Sign-of-the-Cross but I would be happy to help!
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« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2010, 08:43:04 PM »

I didn't quote the previous post to save bandwidth.  Yes, I think that you hit it on the head with the history of the Serbs.  There is no questioning their fierce and undying Faith, and their perseverance through tribulation.  But, like you, I find it highly unlikely that they preserved the ancient rituals as purely as the Russian Old Believers.  In fact, one of the things that struck me about the Serbian Church when I joined was that it seemed to be a hybrid between the Greek and the Russian.   
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« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2010, 05:39:20 PM »

OLD BELIEVER GOD THE FATHER ICONS
Iconographic representation of God the Father is acceptable in Old Believer Churches as can be seen in this video link to a Lipovan Church in which the cameraman zooms in on God the Father Icons prominently displayed in the Church while the people sing the Otche Nash (Our Father)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz6xBc-OMmI&feature=related
God the Father Icons seem to be acceptable to both Belokrinitsky and Pomortsy (priestless) though I know Hopeful Faithful AKA Stranniki, his website (mymartyrdom) is linked below has written that they are heretical.
http://mymartyrdom.com/cr.htm

Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR (Belokrinitsky)
Look at the Icon on the Ceiling! You can see God the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/Old_Believer_Church_Gervais_Oregon.JPG
 

Pomortsy Church in Daugavpils, Latvia
Look at very top of the Icon Screen and you will see the Icon displaying God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Daugavpils_Old_Beliver_Church_of_the_Nativity_of_the_Theotokos4.JPG

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« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2010, 12:07:18 AM »

May we all find spiritual health.

Icons of God the Father were one of the heretical influences the Zealots of Piety were hoping to correct before Patriarch Nikon entered the Russian scene. I know an Old Believer from Russia who has clearly explained to me that not only are God the Father icons heretical, but depicting the Holy Spirit as a dove is likewise forbidden in the Old Pomorsky written texts. You might notice the distinctive explanation in my profile here (for some time now) that I am in transition to the Old Pomorsky. I have seen "New" Pomorsky who let dogs into the chapel, men who practice shaving and multitudes of other departures from Orthodoxy. It would not surpriseme if in these days many Old Pomorsky have certain compromises. Let us hope that we all will be making a good repentance from such heinous things as computers and photography, etc., etc., etc..

There are of course several New-Rite Orthodox bishops who currently state that the God the Father icons are indeed heretical, so the Old Pomorsky are not alone in this conviction. All of the Old Believers that I have noticed who have this style icon also have New-Rite bishop influences, hence the source. The Pomorsky photo you show is not nearly clear enough to see detail. Photography can be doubted on good grounds anyway. We all make our choices who we stand with in worship, I would not stand with a God the Father icon. Those who do have lost their Old Believer identity, if you ask me. I will let God judge between us.

The photo from Gervais, Oregon is queer because, practically from within arms reach of where that photo was taken, is a sign saying that photography allowed is not allowed. The sign is seen in other photos taken by this camera at that time. So many violations are rather rampant in our modern age, we should not be surprised. In this post I will not even go into all the worldliness of the Old Believers in the USA, they have unquestionably lost a lot. Many similar questions can be answered in the same way as this, I have no more time tonight.

Few even know what it means to be Christian these days, but I have hope for all of us.

Forgive, brother John
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« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2010, 02:43:55 PM »

May we all find spiritual health.

Icons of God the Father were one of the heretical influences the Zealots of Piety were hoping to correct before Patriarch Nikon entered the Russian scene.
Few even know what it means to be Christian these days, but I have hope for all of us.

Forgive, brother John


I cannot represent myself as any sort of elder nor can I say I've ever corresponded with any.
I was not aware that the Russian Zealots of Piety were necessarily proto-Pomorsky Old Believers. They un-doubtedly were a strong influence in breaking all communion with the Niconians but I have not read that there was any agreement on this issue amongst early Old Believers nor have I read that any early Old Believer documents nor the Pomorsky Answers ever addressed and condemned icons of God the Father. Please correct me on this if I am wrong.
Below is a photo of an icon of the Holy Trinity from Novgorod painted during the XIVth Century.
Holy Rus did have a tradition of icons of God the Father and from what I've read of the consistent desire and steadfast fidelity to the Holy Tradition received I find it difficult to believe this holy nation would have errored so greviously in painting icons of God the Father.
More than this it was the wicked robber council of Moscow in 1666 which condemned the Old Rite, Old Believers and made official the Niconian Reforms that condemened God the Father icons. It was the Niconians who condemned God the Father Icons. Thankfully the robber council of 1666 in Moscow was nullified in 1682 due to the participation of Paisios Ligarides who was a defrocked Eastern Catholic prelate.





Post edited to replace forbidden epithet with more acceptable alternative.  -PtA
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« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2010, 10:37:58 AM »

I thought that I would post a photo of a Belokrinitsky Bishop declared a Saint in 2007 by the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church.
Bishop Gerontii Lakomkin (August 1, 1872 -June7, 1951) (Consecrated a Bishop March 11, 1912 of Petersburg-Tver Diocese) was an energetic man who promoted education, refurbished 14 Churches, founded a monastery, and opened several schools and colleges. He suffered a great deal for Old Orthodoxy and the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church during his life being arrested and sent to prison/forced labor camp from 1932-1942 in which conditions were terrible and many died. After being released from prison he continued to work for the Church helping to find candidates for consecration, visiting parishes, and collaborating in the annual publication of the Church Calendar. He died at the age of 78 after nearly forty years of outstanding service and buried in Rogozhskoe cemetary.


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« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2010, 11:42:01 PM »

The Revival of Old Orthodox Monasticism
http://www.staroobrad.ru/modules.php?name=News2&file=article&sid=345
Some photos of Old Orthodox Monks and Nuns






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« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2011, 03:29:10 PM »

To update this thread I wanted to add that I recently came across a photo album online of the 2009 Pilgrimage lead by Metropolitan Cornelius here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/103958429917072850819/OldBeliever2009#
Perhaps the best photo from the album is below
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« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2011, 06:27:30 AM »

Beautiful pictures!
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« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2011, 04:27:27 PM »

Although the topic of this string of posts concerns the Belokrinitsky Metropolitanates, Russia and Lipovan (Romania & Abroad (several communities scattered throughout the world fall under the jurisdiction of the Lipovan Metropolitanate)), I wanted to enlighten others on the recent joyous events involving the Novozybkovsky Hierarchy, Russian Old-Orthodox Church, under Patriarch Alexander. It is little known by most Orthodox that the Nikonian Reforms only reached the Georgian Orthodox in the 18th Century and that this has spawned a Georgian Old-Orthodox movement that clings to the Georgian Old-Rite. Patriarch Alexander and his fellow bishops helped to found the Georgian Old Orthodox Church consecrating Archbishop Paul (Khorava) of Tbilisi and All Georgia which follows the Georgian Old-Rite using the Liturgical Texts of Georgia prior to the 18th Century reforms. The Archbishop and Patriarch can be seen in the photo below.

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« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2012, 11:06:43 PM »

Христос Воскресе!

When I began studying the Belokrinitskaya I assumed that they were somehow much different from the Priestless Old Believers such as the Pomortsy who still view the Modern Russian Patriarchate as being of the Antichrist. I assumed that their separation from the MP was little more than an organizational separation that will soon be remedied. I was very much mistaken. While they have seemed to grow closer toward the MP and other Orthodox such as the Jerusalem Patriarchate their are still many hardliners who consider the MP clergy and all other Orthodox as heretics who are not to be prayed with. I had this idea that the Belokrinitskaya would be like the Greek Old Calendarists under Metropolitan Cyprian, "Cyprianites," who maintain that world Orthodoxy is still the Church and hence has Ecclesial Grace of the Mysteries. While they do respect the apostolic succession they do not seem, from what I have read, to have as definite an ecclesiology addressing the contradiction of accepting a mainline Greek Bishop to re-establish their hierarchy while maintaining and teaching that the world Orthodox have fallen into heresy and hence are not truly Orthodox, not truly Christians. I have great admiration and interest in the Old Believers but I pray that they all do what most of the Old Orthodox folks in Erie, PA did and come back to the fullness of the Church. It would be a great blessing to the Church. I haved experienced first hand the blessings that come with practicing the Russian Old Rite in my private life.


I'm not sure if you still believe this to be the case, or if you are still interested in knowing, but, the "Belokrinitskaya" look at it like St. Basil the Great who divided all heretics into 3 degrees.  Не  [St. Basil the Great] wrote: " Thus they (the old authorities) used the names of heresies, of schisms, and of unlawful congregations. By heresies they meant men who were altogether broken off and alienated in matters relating to the actual faith; by schisms men who had separated for some ecclesiastical reasons and questions capable of mutual solution; by unlawful congregations gatherings held by disorderly presbyters or bishops or by unin- structed laymen."  Following the teaching of St. Basil the Great the "Belokrinitskaya" view the Nikonians as "second degree heretics" or in other words schismatics.

[SOURCE = an email from an "Belokrinitskaya" Deacon in Russia.]  

Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.
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« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2012, 10:46:07 AM »

Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.


You'd better do because it has no sense.
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« Reply #103 on: October 10, 2012, 03:35:49 AM »





OLD BELIEVER GOD THE FATHER ICONS
Iconographic representation of God the Father is acceptable in Old Believer Churches as can be seen in this video link to a Lipovan Church in which the cameraman zooms in on God the Father Icons prominently displayed in the Church while the people sing the Otche Nash (Our Father)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz6xBc-OMmI&feature=related
God the Father Icons seem to be acceptable to both Belokrinitsky and Pomortsy (priestless) though I know Hopeful Faithful AKA Stranniki, his website (mymartyrdom) is linked below has written that they are heretical.
http://mymartyrdom.com/cr.htm

Church of the Ascension in Gervais, OR (Belokrinitsky)
Look at the Icon on the Ceiling! You can see God the Holy Spirit proceeding from God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/Old_Believer_Church_Gervais_Oregon.JPG
 

Pomortsy Church in Daugavpils, Latvia
Look at very top of the Icon Screen and you will see the Icon displaying God the Father!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Daugavpils_Old_Beliver_Church_of_the_Nativity_of_the_Theotokos4.JPG




There are a few confessions of Old Believers, without Priests ("Bespopovsty"), but apparently Pomortsy seem to make up the majority; and together with Fedoseevts, with whom they are in spiritual communion, appear to make up the vast majority of Old Believers, in general.

That said I thought I would add a update to this thread with some digging around that I have done. I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father. Below is an image of a Pomortsy cross, one who cares to should note that there is no depiction of God the Father and no dove depicting the Holy Spirit. Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.

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« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2013, 01:29:26 AM »

Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.

You'd better do because it has no sense.

Although I cannot speak for him, I perceive that he was alluding to the Council of Florence and any influence it may have had on relations between the Church in Russia and the Patriarchate of Constantinople.  I recall that Serge Penkovsky had written an article specifically about this that might have pertinent information, but Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote about certain apostate Russian clergy with the same oecumenist spirit.  I recall reading in Fr. Florovsky's 'Ways of Russian Theology' that Tsar Ivan III actually married the Byzantine Princess Sophia Paleologue in the Vatican in Rome.

MK was here
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« Reply #105 on: March 16, 2013, 02:14:50 AM »

Beautiful pictures!
Indeed!

I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father... Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.
I have recently been discussing the Belokrinitskaya synod with my priest, and he actually told me this exact same thing about ikons of the Father(but not of the Resurrection)(with respect to some old believers generally) earlier this evening!  
In any case, I'd like to thank you for the information which you have taken the time to put out.

If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.  

Johnson actually asserted that the nineteenth century revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia that began with Paisius Velichkovsky was actually enabled precisely because of Old Believers who historically invest far more in education and are much more knowledgable than their Nikonian counterparts, and the Orthodox Christian heritage which survived the eighteenth century is largely attributable to the Old Believer merchant families' dedication to preservation of Old Russian Christian culture including the books that deserves credit for enabling Paisius's movement to accomplish what it did.

Although I respect all synods, both of these hierarchies (Mathewite and Bela Krinitsa) have grace as I understand it as they both derive apostolic succession from Orthodox Christian [Greek] bishops of the Ottoman period - although they are not in official communion with one another.

Personally, I have visited the Church in Erie once before (and they were very hospitable) and perceive the environment existing in the Old Orthodox Churches a bit more conducive to a more regimented prayer life.  
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« Reply #106 on: March 16, 2013, 02:28:08 AM »

I'm not sure if you still believe this to be the case, or if you are still interested in knowing, but, the "Belokrinitskaya" look at it like St. Basil the Great who divided all heretics into 3 degrees.  Не  [St. Basil the Great] wrote: " Thus they (the old authorities) used the names of heresies, of schisms, and of unlawful congregations. By heresies they meant men who were altogether broken off and alienated in matters relating to the actual faith; by schisms men who had separated for some ecclesiastical reasons and questions capable of mutual solution; by unlawful congregations gatherings held by disorderly presbyters or bishops or by unin- structed laymen."  Following the teaching of St. Basil the Great the "Belokrinitskaya" view the Nikonians as "second degree heretics" or in other words schismatics.
[SOURCE = an email from an "Belokrinitskaya" Deacon in Russia.]

Very well put.
Apologize for so many consecutive posts as I have been very interested in this subjectas of late. 
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« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2013, 03:38:03 PM »

I have been very interested in this subjectas of late. 


Good health to all.

Keep your interest, it is not a lost cause at all.

forgive


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« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2013, 12:27:44 AM »

Some other thoughts of my own: this seems to be the same stance of the pre-Nikonian schism Russian Orthodox Church toward the "Greek Orthodox Church". I do not know this for sure, but, I will find out soon.

You'd better do because it has no sense.

Although I cannot speak for him, I perceive that he was alluding to the Council of Florence and any influence it may have had on relations between the Church in Russia and the Patriarchate of Constantinople.  I recall that Serge Penkovsky had written an article specifically about this that might have pertinent information, but Fr. Georges Florovsky wrote about certain apostate Russian clergy with the same oecumenist spirit.  I recall reading in Fr. Florovsky's 'Ways of Russian Theology' that Tsar Ivan III actually married the Byzantine Princess Sophia Paleologue in the Vatican in Rome.

MK was here

You are correct I was referring to the Council of Florence, and the effects this had on the relations between the Russian Church and the Greek Church.
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2013, 01:59:44 PM »

The old believers in Russia are allowed to take communion in the Orthodox Church (as well as the roman catholics), but otherwise they are considered schismatic.

I haven't searched into this matter thoroughly enough to outline all differences between the Russian Orthodox and Old Believers, but the general notion among Russian Orthodox is that the Old Believers strayed from the Greek Orthodox Tradition (and hence authentic, since the Greeks are considered the successors of the Byzantine Empire) and distorted its liturgy rites, which is definitely unacceptable for an orthodox church, since the very word 'orthodox' implies preservation of tradition.

A different matter is how Patriarch Nikon treated the christians who opposed his reforms, but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.

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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2013, 05:17:11 PM »

but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2013, 05:21:27 PM »

but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...

Nope. Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2013, 05:50:25 PM »

Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.

Although вєликаго might have a different view, an invisible Church doctrine (or something similar) is indeed what I understand to be the case with priestless Old Believers, but I do not detect that to be the case of priested Old Orthodox Christians such as the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy. 

I see quite a distinction between the priested and priestless.  I understand the priested to be the canonical Church since the Russian synod officially and actually became a department of the Russian government since the time of Tsar Peter (and perhaps effectively since Tsar Alexi before him).  The Tsars and their secular agent (the procurator) had the authroity to raise up, put down, and rotate bishops which was not canonical at all.  One example of this uncanonical system is that it caused the decline of the Optina brotherhood which was unable to effectively remedy the decisions of this synod against it since it was loyal to it.  This history is contained in the life of Saint Barsanuphius of Optina who was under of the Nikonian Synod. 

Another important distinction between the priested Old Orthodox Christians and many (or most) of the priestless is that the priested did not anathematize the Nikonian Church nor consider them graceless.  Their steadfastness and lack of fanaticism contributed to their stability and their eventual triumph by acqusition of a hierarchy which is completely legitimate as far as I can tell. 
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2013, 06:09:19 PM »

I have read recently (in Fr. Matthew Raphael Johnson's book I believe) that heretical elements of old Russia saw opportunity in the schism, and these sects are exactly what composed most of the priestless sects which multiplied and bore many resemblances to protestantism.  

EDIT:  I might add that although вєликаго may possibly have a different view of this, I do think he made a point about iconography worth bearing in mind.  In any case, I do think one would have too look far and wide to discover a western resurrection ikon among Russian Old Orthodox Christians.  

The priested did not have a history of divisions and sects like the priestless.  
I would like to research the number of schisms (for whatever cause) which the Nikonian Synod had during the Petrine era. 
It would be particularly interesting if it was shown to have had more schisms than the priested!

From the view of the priested Old Orthodox Christians, the Moscow Patriarchate adopted characteristics of a Frankist styled papacy, and the priestless adopted characteristics of protestantism while the priested Old Orthodox Church simply persevered in the customs of Old Russia which in many respects were more Byzantine than the Orthodox Roman Christian citizens of the Ottoman Empire and definitely more Byzantine than modrn Greece which adopted a western Frankist influenced iconography and even theology in the early 1880's concomitant with the anti-Ottoman revolt.  

Incidentally, I see in the greek revolt a British masonic plot, the adoption of european ways including nationalism, and an abandonment of Orthodox Christian tradition, but that is another story.  
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« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2013, 02:16:23 AM »

I have been very interested in this subjectas of late.

Good health to all.

Keep your interest, it is not a lost cause at all.

Much appreciate the informative material on Old Orthodox Christians in English that you have made available through the internet. 
I was previously aware of the mymartyrdom site and was glad to come across your newer site by way of this forum. 

I definitely intend to visit the Bela Krinitsa Synod Churches in Oregon and Alaska - perhaps as a honeymoon with my wife. 
I would like to visit the monastery in Romania as well for a more extended period. 

In the meantime, I use the Old Orthodox Prayer book published by Holy Nativty Church of Erie, PA at home - although I use the (Byzantine style Enlgish) HTM Prayer book at my local Church which enables me to follow the services even though they are in Greek. 
(I tried to follow along with our Greek services using the Erie Prayer Book, and I could not do it and had to revert to the HTM book or in its absence the prayer rope). 

I will try to learn Byzantine chant (one step at a time) while I am here since it would seem to be a waste not to do so.  In my opinion, I would benefit far more from learning ecclesiastical Greek and Byzantine chant than modern demotic Greek which would be far less valuable to me than learning something like Arabic.  If I could pick three languages to learn, they would be:
1) (Byzantine) Greek chant (which I can learn through practice at my Church although Mounce's biblical grammar deserves mention since it is probably the most user friendly one out there) 
2) Slavonic Znameny chant
3) Modern Standard Arabic

I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate. 

In all this, I am trying to take the best of both worlds (Greek and Russian).
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« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2013, 02:21:03 AM »

...more Byzantine than the Orthodox Roman Christian citizens of the Ottoman Empire and definitely more Byzantine than modrn Greece which adopted a western Frankist influenced iconography and even theology in the early 1880's concomitant with the anti-Ottoman revolt...
The date in the quote includes a typo.
I had meant to write the early 1800's here (i.e. 1821).
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« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2013, 05:26:52 AM »

or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a latinisation? And a sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?
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« Reply #117 on: March 30, 2013, 12:56:11 PM »

or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a ... sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?

As I said above, using a prayer rope is not my normal mode of practice.  That detail is an oeconomy since I confess that I do not have the Liturgy memorized, and the services at the Church at which I attend are in a language which I do not understand.  I actually learned of this practice some years ago from Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov's book on the Jesus prayer which advised saying the Jesus prayer (mentally) as a practice for person's in such situations.  He did advise to stop the prayer at the time of the reading of the Gospel. 

At any rate, I find that the author of the Way of a Pilgrim had a deeper understanding of the Jesus Prayer than did Bishop Brianchaninov - likely due to more advanced experience.  I am not advanced in the Jesus prayer, but I read in 'The Way of a Pilgrim' that acquisition of the prayer actually greatly helped the pilgrim to keep his attention during Church services and prevented him from getting bored.  Perhaps you conclude that I am ignorant and viod of even basic understanding of the Liturgy, but I am led to believe that the Jesus prayer is not inconsistent with the Liturgy, but actually assists it without contradiction.   

If I have no way of understanding a service in which I am attending due to language and no adequate service book on hand to help me follow along, then the Jesus prayer would keep my mind from wandering.  I observe that on occasion when out priest stands at the analogion (assisting the chanters) for part of the service in which he is not required to be at the altar, he has a prayer rope in his hand. 

I would ask you that if I am attending a Church service in which I do not know the language and am not able to follow the service for whatever reason, then what else would you suggest in such a situation?  Do you advise that I ignore the prayer of Jesus' Name and allow my mind the possibility to wander with nothing to concentrate upon?

I have many faults, but with perfect honesty, I perceive the question you posed falls far afoul of the path of constructive criticism.  If a forum moderator looks for some petty detail like having a prayer rope in my hand during a Church service as a pretext to criticize me, then I would say with all due respect that I will probably be spending less time on this forum.  Peace be with you, brother. 

Be that as it may, I am very content to have come across вєликаго and a few others on this forum. 
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« Reply #118 on: March 30, 2013, 02:10:53 PM »

Although вєликаго might have a different view, an invisible Church doctrine (or something similar) is indeed what I understand to be the case with priestless Old Believers, but I do not detect that to be the case of priested Old Orthodox Christians such as the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.

Forgive me brother, I had misunderstood your exact position until I understood that your jurisdiction is Lipovan
(i.e. priested Bela Krinitsa synod)!  You simply seek Stranniki or pilgrim life while Lipovan is your synod. 
Correct me if I am mistaken. 

It seems our faith is one! God bless you!
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« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2013, 02:24:40 PM »

How long have you been Orthodox? Liturgy gets memorised pretty easily. You haven't manager to grasp it yet?

And why to stop for Gospel if you don't understand it too?

And yes, I've been attending services in a language I do not understand for over 80% of my life.
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« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2013, 02:38:06 PM »

or in its absence the prayer rope). 

Isn't that a ... sign of misunderstanding what Liturgy is?

... the services at the Church at which I attend are in a language which I do not understand.  I actually learned of this practice some years ago from Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov's book on the Jesus prayer which advised saying the Jesus prayer (mentally) as a practice for person's in such situations.

I thought it worth reminding persons minded to criticize this that Bishop Ignatii Brianchaninov who made such a suggestion was himself a bishop of the Petrine synod.  

Although I cannot presently locate the webpage, I did discover and print a guide to preparation of confession from the website of none other than the (Bela Krinitsa) Holy Ascension Old Orthodox Church in Oregon that asks (among other questions):

"Have you prepared for services beforehand looking up scriptural readings, making sure you have texts to follow the service especially if in a language you do not readily understand?"
How pertinent.
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« Reply #121 on: March 30, 2013, 03:07:59 PM »

How long have you been Orthodox?
I am but a catechumen only.  

Liturgy gets memorised pretty easily. You haven't manager to grasp it yet?
No, I have not yet memorized the liturgy word for word.  I already realize this and am working on my knowledge and involvement with prayer and liturgics generally along with other things that I need to work on, but I wonder who made thee my confessor?

I've been attending services in a language I do not understand for over 80% of my life.
You are quite a prying critic - are you not?
I think if you searched you would find many more faults, but such questions are frankly none of your business.  
Your conversation shows to me that you are interested in finding faults with others and proving you are more spiritual,
but I want no part of such competition.  

This is the second time that I have indicated to you that I am not interested in your personal comments (although I will of course cooperate with anything reasonable you request as a moderator),  but I will likely ignore further personal questions from you because I realize that Solomon wrote in Proverbs that a fool will not learn even from a hundred lashes.
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« Reply #122 on: March 30, 2013, 04:06:15 PM »

but again, you don't defy the God-chosen head of the Church, but you obey his commands, otherwise there would be no Orthodox Church in our days, just another couple of hundred protestant denominations.
Thanks for your interesting input.

I could have sworn those were the words of a Latin...

Nope. Just standard Christianity. We do not believe in individualism and invisible church.

Actually, your statement contains an error (!); we do not believe there is any true head of the church, except Jesus -- our Christ. You give one man, whom you are calling the head of the church, the kind authority the Pseudo Pope of Rome claims for himself, or at the very least something akin to it.
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« Reply #123 on: March 30, 2013, 04:42:44 PM »

I'm sorry, sometimes it's really hard to communicate an idea in a language that you don't use very often.
I probably added some unnecessary articles in the "the head of the Church", and it might sound really 'catholic' now.
But what I really meant, is that we have to obey our elders, unless their orders force us to break God's commandments.
As Peter said:

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Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

And I don't consider Orthodox Patriarchs infallible, since every man is sinful and even one of the twelve closest disciples fell.
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« Reply #124 on: March 30, 2013, 05:03:35 PM »

I'm sorry, sometimes it's really hard to communicate an idea in a language that you don't use very often.
I probably added some unnecessary articles in the "the head of the Church", and it might sound really 'catholic' now.
But what I really meant, is that we have to obey our elders, unless their orders force us to break God's commandments.
As Peter said:

Quote
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

And I don't consider Orthodox Patriarchs infallible, since every man is sinful and even one of the twelve closest disciples fell.

I have to say that this post sounds so much better than your previous.
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« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2013, 05:10:24 PM »

The old believers in Russia are allowed to take communion in the Orthodox Church (as well as the roman catholics), but otherwise they are considered schismatic.

Here's a question - just to confirm: 
Unlike the ROCOR Old Believer Church in Erie, PA, the Bela Krinitsa Synod does not permit any communion with either ROCOR nor the Moscow Patriarchate.  Do I understand correctly?
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« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2013, 05:36:55 PM »

The "Old Believers in Erie, PA" you speak of, are probable the "Old Believers" that joined ROCOR (which has rejoined with Moscow) and are no longer Old Believers but are now "Edinoverie". Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.
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« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2013, 06:08:52 PM »

Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Crossing oneself with three fingers is a pernicious heresy indeed...  Undecided
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« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2013, 06:56:51 PM »

Like I posted in here before, the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Crossing oneself with three fingers is a pernicious heresy indeed...  Undecided

Despite, what seems like obvious ridicule to me, you are correct that crossing ones self with three fingers, is a heresy; but make no mistake there are plenty more. It seems (to me) that you aim to defend the innovations you follow by ridicule.
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« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »

I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate.  

[quote/][quote/]


Who are Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia?
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« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »

Beautiful pictures!
Indeed!

I recently took the time to look around Woodburn, OR and ask some of the older local Old Believers and it appears that the Chasovennye Bespopovsty believe in God the Father Icons and as well as the Belokrinitskaya Popovtsy; and on a side note it appears that aside from the issue of priesthood and all that goes with it the Chasovennye and Belokrinitskaya agree on most points.

All that said, however, Pomortsy are strictly against depicting God the Father... Belokrinitskaya and Chasovennye both have crosses with God the Father and the Holy Spirit as a Dove.
I have recently been discussing the Belokrinitskaya synod with my priest, and he actually told me this exact same thing about ikons of the Father(but not of the Resurrection)(with respect to some old believers generally) earlier this evening!  
In any case, I'd like to thank you for the information which you have taken the time to put out.

If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy.  

Johnson actually asserted that the nineteenth century revival of the Orthodox Church in Russia that began with Paisius Velichkovsky was actually enabled precisely because of Old Believers who historically invest far more in education and are much more knowledgable than their Nikonian counterparts, and the Orthodox Christian heritage which survived the eighteenth century is largely attributable to the Old Believer merchant families' dedication to preservation of Old Russian Christian culture including the books that deserves credit for enabling Paisius's movement to accomplish what it did.

Although I respect all synods, both of these hierarchies (Mathewite and Bela Krinitsa) have grace as I understand it as they both derive apostolic succession from Orthodox Christian [Greek] bishops of the Ottoman period - although they are not in official communion with one another.

Personally, I have visited the Church in Erie once before (and they were very hospitable) and perceive the environment existing in the Old Orthodox Churches a bit more conducive to a more regimented prayer life.  


Who is this Saint Ambrose of Bosnia?


Saint Ambrosii was recently canonized; he was a Bishop in the Greek "Orthodox" Church and was received according to Canon 95 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.  
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« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2013, 08:43:45 PM »

^Thanks. It's "Bosnia that confuses me...what do Ambrosii and Avakum  have to do do with Bosnia?
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« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »

Saint Avvakum has nothing to do with Bosnia; and I'm not sure what Saint Ambrosii might.
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« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2013, 08:50:14 PM »

The only Avakum I can recall is from Serbia not Bosnia(online it's spelled incorrectly as Habakkuk, while in the book it is spelled Avakum)...unless it is different Avakum that is being mentioned...

Paisius was abbot of the Travna Monastery near Cacak in Serbia, and Habakkuk was his companion and deacon. As Christians, both were impaled on stakes by the Turks on Kalemegdan in Belgrade on December 17, 1814. Carrying his stake through the streets of Belgrade, the courageous Habakkuk sang. When his mother begged him with tears to embrace Islam in order to save his life, this wonderful soldier of Christ replied to her:



                  My mother, thank you for your milk,
                  But for your counsel I thank you not:
                  A Serb is Christ's; he rejoices in death.

Source: http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html?month=December&day=17&Go.x=7&Go.y=13
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« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2013, 08:54:03 PM »

Saint Avvakum has nothing to do with Bosnia; and I'm not sure what Saint Ambrosii might.

The following are quotes by Dionysii:

"If I may venture a thought which might seem bold, but is a conclusion drawn only after some years of searching, I very much respect the Old Orthodox Christian traditions.  Although my synod is a Greek old calendar synod (Matthewite), I recently read Raphael Matthew Johnson's excellent book 'Sobornosti' which really sharpened my understanding about old believers and attracted me to the Bela Krinitsa synod.  I understood from this book that the priested Bela Krinitsa synod is moderate compared to the priestless.  Particularly significant is the fact that they acknowledge grace in the post-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church (which they viewed as a schism rather than a heresy) and that the Patriarch of Constantinople of the time endorsed the 1846 consecration of new bishops by Saint Ambrose of Bosnia giving birth to the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy."


Different post by Dionysii as well:

"I have a Russian ikon corner which includes ikons of Saint Avvakum and Saint Ambrosii of Bosnia, but I also have ikons of Saint Matthew the New (Karpathakis) and Saint Haralambi of Kalamata which I venerate."

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« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2013, 08:56:13 PM »

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/russian_spirituality_fedotov.htm#_Toc46671186

Is a informative link, written by what we know to be heretics, about Saint Avvakum -- it's not altogether accurate, so read with caution.

For the record: it's not accurate to think that the Nikonians have Grace.
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« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2013, 09:21:37 PM »

I found somew brief and unclear information

"In 1811, the future Metropolitan Ambrosii, then still Andreas, was married, and shortly after he was ordained as a priest by Metropolitan Matthew. In 1814 he lost his wife, who had given him a son, named George after his grandfather. In 1817 he was elected Igumen (abbot) of the Monastery of the Holy Trinity on the island of Halki. Patriarch Constantine had him locum tenens of the patriarchal Greek Church in 1827. As is clear from a document dated 9 September 1835, he was ordained as a bishop of Sarajevo in Bosnia by Patriarch Gregory, assisted by four other bishops. He remained in his position for five years before being removed by the Ottoman authorities."

Why would he be ordained as a Bishop in Bosnia? To which church did Patriarch Gregory belong to, perhaps EP?
 I am aware of the period during the Ottoman rule that Greeks imposed Greek clergy in Serbia especially after Serbian Patriarcate (in Pech) was abolished for some time...

"Ambrosii was born Andreas Popovic in 1791 in Maistra, at that time part of the Ottoman Empire. He was of Greek origin."
Yet his last name is Slavic...originates from word pop meaning priest...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose_of_Belaya_Krinitsa

 
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« Reply #137 on: March 30, 2013, 10:23:07 PM »

"Ambrosii was born Andreas Popovic in 1791 in Maistra, at that time part of the Ottoman Empire. He was of Greek origin."
Yet his last name is Slavic...

I believe people at this time did not distinguish between Greek and Slavic other than linguistically.   
All the Orthodox Christians of the Ottoman Empire considered themselves Romans or Roumeli, and the Ottoman muslims considered them in the same way without any racial or ethnic distinction which was later fabricated based along linguistic lines which ultimately proved fratricidal when they tore each other apart in the Balkan wars and WWI.

A Greek writer by the name of Paschalis Kitromilides has written well on this importatation of nationalism from the european "enlightnement" - a movement which was quite opposed by the Kollyvades:

'Imagined Communities and the Origin of the National Question in the Balkans'
By Paschalis Kitromilides
http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/courses/documents/kitromilides.pdf

The Chrisitan race is one, and the modern doctrine of racialism is an invention imported from europe and intended to divide Orthodox Christians.  Saint Epiphanios of Cyprus wrote that only two races exist - good and evil.

I think the more important distinction is between Orthodox and Old Orthodox Christians.  A Slavic last name versus a "Greek" origin is a not central to the issue.  What matters (to me) is his conversion to Old Orthodoxy.  Saint Ambrosii was consecrated a bishop by the same hierarchy from which my synod's bishops derive. 
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« Reply #138 on: March 30, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »

the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Appreciate the answer which I realized that.  I just wanted to further confirm it because I consider it important. 
Now, I will take the question one step further: 

What is the general understanding or position of the Bela Krinitsa Synod concerning the status of the Patriarchate of Constantinople during the 1700's and 1800's?
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« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2013, 10:55:42 PM »

I have this book in my house.  I have not read all of it yet, but I suspect that the writers with whom you would exercise the most caution are obviously the post-Nikonian writers such as Bishop Tikhon of Zadonsk whom Fedotov himself describes as a westernizing kenotic in the Table of Contents. 

I have not yet read the life of Bishop Tikhon of Zadonsk and thus refrain to make further comment about him, but I do refuse to follow pro-Nikonians who call the Uniate writer Bishop Dimitri of Rostov a "saint."  Bishop Dimitri is mentioned in Way of a Pilgrim when one his (apparently worthwhile) books his referenced.  It was probably a better book that his Frankist version of the lives of the Saints in which he translated into Slavic the Frankist lies about Saints such as Dionysios the Areopagite alleging that he never went to Paris.  I would prefer the Synaxarion of Denisov brothers of Vyg to that of Bishop Dimitri of Rostov who was completely papist. 

The uniate movement was the predecessor of the modern oecumenist movement, and this makes it very obvious to me that history should speak to Old Calendarist Orthodox Christians in favor of the Old Orthodox.  History does not lie.  It's black and white to me.  We can discern the the truth from the best of the Nikonian writers like Fr. Georges Florovsky in spite of his opinion of the Olf Orthodox Christians. 

I might also mention that a far more complete version of the Way of a Pilgrim has since been published than the one in Fedotov's collection. 
Fedotov seems to have had secular opinions himself, but he did choose rather worthwhile selections when he put together this particular volume. 
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« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2013, 11:14:16 PM »

the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Appreciate the answer which I realized that.  I just wanted to further confirm it because I consider it important. 
Now, I will take the question one step further: 

What is the general understanding or position of the Bela Krinitsa Synod concerning the status of the Patriarchate of Constantinople during the 1700's and 1800's?

Same position -- heretics of the second order.
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« Reply #141 on: March 31, 2013, 12:01:40 AM »

Saint Ambrosii was recently canonized; he was a Bishop in the Greek "Orthodox" Church and was received according to Canon 95 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.
I will take a look at this tonight.
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« Reply #142 on: March 31, 2013, 12:07:39 AM »

For the record: it's not accurate to think that the Nikonians have Grace.

Concerning the elders and monastics of the Optina Monastery of nineteenth century Russia - who might be an example of what you term the "best" of the Nikonians - might you say that such as these followed after God in spite of their Synod's lack of holiness?
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« Reply #143 on: March 31, 2013, 12:16:06 AM »

For the record: it's not accurate to think that the Nikonians have Grace.

Concerning the elders and monastics of the Optina Monastery of nineteenth century Russia - who might be an example of what you term the "best" of the Nikonians - might you say that such as these followed after God in spite of their Synod's lack of holiness?

I realized right from the start I needed to guard my self from any incorrect influences; consequently, I never learned much about the Optina Elders.
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« Reply #144 on: March 31, 2013, 12:27:51 AM »

I realized right from the start I needed to guard my self from any incorrect influences; consequently, I never learned much about the Optina Elders.
Understood. 

I have not yet read the life of Avvakum, and I realize that would be  important.

Could you recommend any other book or books in English giving the priested Old Orthodox perspective of the Schism of the 1660's or of the Nikonian Synod? 
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« Reply #145 on: March 31, 2013, 12:45:10 AM »

I realized right from the start I needed to guard my self from any incorrect influences; consequently, I never learned much about the Optina Elders.
Understood.  

I have not yet read the life of Avvakum, and I realize that would be  important.

Could you recommend any other book or books in English giving the priested Old Orthodox perspective of the Schism of the 1660's or of the Nikonian Synod?  

Sadly, in my experience, everything in English is not very good!

The story of Avvakum is a must read!
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« Reply #146 on: March 31, 2013, 01:03:03 AM »

the "Belokrinitskaya" consider the "best" of the Nikonians to be heretics of the second order; and as such, do not allow communion with them.

Now, I will take the question one step further:  

What is the general understanding or position of the Bela Krinitsa Synod concerning the status of the Patriarchate of Constantinople during the 1700's and 1800's?

Same position -- heretics of the second order.
As far as I can see it, this is logical and consistent.  


Saint Ambrosii was recently canonized; he was a Bishop in the Greek "Orthodox" Church and was received according to Canon 95 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.
(the Sixth Oecumenical Council of 681 A.D.)

I think you meant Canon 95 of the Quinisext Synod held in Trullo - did you not?
(The Qunisext Synod held in Trullo in 692 A.D.)

As for heretics who are joining Orthodoxy and the portion of the saved, we accept them in accordance with the subjoined sequence and custom: Arians and Macedonians and Novations, who called themselves Cathari and Aristeri, and the Tessarakaidekatitae, or, at any rate, those called Tetradites and Apolinarists, we accept, when they give us certificates (called libelli);  and when they anathematize every heresy that does not believe as the holy catholic and Apostolic Church of God believes, and are anointed first with holy myron on the forehead and the eyes, and the nose and mouth, and the ears, while we are anointing them and sealing them we say, “A seal of a gift of Holy Spirit.” As concerning Paulianists who have afterwards taken refuge in the Catholic Church, a definition has been promulgated that they have to be rebaptized without fail. As for Eunomians, however, who baptize with a single immersion, and Montanists who are hereabouts called Phrygians and Sabellians, who hold the tenet Hyiopatoria (or modalistic monarchianism) and do other embarrassing things; and all other heresies — for there are many hereabouts, especially those hailing from the country of the Galatians — as for all of them who wish to join Orthodoxy, we accept them as Greeks. Accordingly, on the first day, we make them Christians; on the second day, catechumens; after this, on the third day we exorcise them by breathing three times into their faces and into their ears. And thus we catechize them, and make them stay for a long time in church and listen to the Scriptures, and then we baptize them. As for Manicheans, and Valentinians, and Marcionists, and those from similar heresies, they have to give us certificates (called libelli) and anathematize their heresy, the Nestorians, and Nestorius, and Eutyches and Dioscorus, and Severus, and the other exarchs of such heresies, and those who entertain their beliefs, and all the aforementioned heresies, and thus they are allowed to partake of holy Communion.

http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P4N.HTM
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« Reply #147 on: March 31, 2013, 01:21:24 AM »

It appears to me, that you might know something about this I do not.
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« Reply #148 on: March 31, 2013, 01:23:53 AM »

If the Nikonian Synod fell into schism (heresy of the second order) around about the 1660's, then am I correct to understand that the Bela Krinitsa Synod considers the Patriarchate of Constantinople to have also fallen into schism during that approximate time period as well - and not significantly earlier?
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« Reply #149 on: March 31, 2013, 01:32:07 AM »

If the Nikonian Synod fell into schism (heresy of the second order) around about the 1660's, then am I correct to understand that the Bela Krinitsa Synod considers the Patriarchate of Constantinople to have also fallen into schism during that approximate time period as well - and not significantly earlier?

Patriarchate of Constantinople fell into schism at the council of Florence.

Something Saint Avvakum said, "Ecumenical teachers! Rome has long since fallen and lies prostrate, and the Poles perished with them, and are the enemies of Christians to the end. Among you [the Greeks] Orthodoxy has become mottled because of the violence of Mehmet the Turk – and one must not be amazed at you: you have become powerless. .."
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« Reply #150 on: March 31, 2013, 01:37:31 AM »

It appears to me, that you might know something about this I do not.
Not really.  Just persistent at this today.

All I did was a google search for "Sixth Ecumenical Council Canons" and found this convenient page with canons listed from those early synods:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_INDEX.HTM

Looking at this webpage which showed no cannon 95 for the Sixth Oecumenical Council but quite a few for the Quinisext Council listed right below it, it looked quite possible that you or your source made an honest misquote.

This seemed confirmed when I read Canon 95 of the Quinisext which has to do with the reception of heretics which is exactly what we have been discussing.  If you read the paragraph, it discerns two different categories of reception of heretics:
1) by chrismation (in the case of schismatics or second order heretics)
and
2) baptism
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« Reply #151 on: March 31, 2013, 01:39:56 AM »

It appears to me, that you might know something about this I do not.
Not really.  Just persistent at this today.

All I did was a google search for "Sixth Ecumenical Council Canons" and found this convenient page with canons listed from those early synods:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_INDEX.HTM

Looking at this webpage which showed no cannon 95 for the Sixth Oecumenical Council but quite a few for the Quinisext Council listed right below it, it looked quite possible that you or your source made an honest misquote.

This seemed confirmed when I read Canon 95 of the Quinisext which has to do with the reception of heretics which is exactly what we have been discussing.  If you read the paragraph, it discerns two different categories of reception of heretics:
1) by chrismation (in the case of schismatics or second order heretics)
and
2) baptism

I was going from memory and looked it up in the Rudder.  -- Edit: In other words, The Rudder has it listed under the Sixth Oecumenical Council.
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« Reply #152 on: March 31, 2013, 01:58:22 AM »

Patriarchate of Constantinople fell into schism at the council of Florence.
This makes the relationship between the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Moscow Patriarchate from the 1430's to the 1660's very important.  Were they not in communion throughout most of this time? I confess that I have not read extensively on this.

I understand that Russian Old Orthodox Christians accept Saint Gregory of Palamas.  What is the position of your synod on Bishop Mark of Ephesus who staunchly opposed the Council of Florence and subsequently blessed Bishop Gennadios who became the first Ottoman Patriarch of Constantinople and a close friend of Mehmed II?  

I have found a lot of Greeks to be fanatically racist against the Turks incorporating nineteenth century fabrications into their schoolbooks such as the secret school myth.  It is true that taxes and life became cruel for some subjects in the early 1800's after the empire had quit expanding during the 1700's, but I think much exagerration is made imagining that to be the case throughout all of Ottoman history.  However, that is only social history, and I have indeed read of a long history of simony at the Patriarchate of Constantinople during the Ottoman period.  

This reminds me of Karl Marx's criticisms of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Ottoman Sultan as an axis.  To the extent that became true, then it is truly lamentable.  I think the simony of the Ottoman Patriarchate is one of the most obvious vindications of the Russian Old believer indictment of that institution.  It is precisely inconsistencies like these that makes me suspect the devil tries to pull the woll over my eyes with the "Greek" Orthodox Church. 

The name Greek itself is a giveaway.  The ancient Christian Canons consistently and unitedly and outspokenly the ways of the Greeks to hell.  That any devout Orthodox Christian would want to call themselves a Greek signifies to me a cultivated ignorance of certain aspects Christian tradition. 
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« Reply #153 on: March 31, 2013, 02:13:40 AM »


 What is the position of your synod on Bishop Mark of Ephesus who staunchly opposed the Council of Florence and subsequently blessed Bishop Gennadios who became the first Ottoman Patriarch of Constantinople and a close friend of Mehmed II? 


I'm not 100% but I do not think he is recognized. I do not see him mentioned in any lives of saints, kept by Old Believers -- I'm sure I have not seen everything. Also never recall celebrating his feast day or anything like that, or anyone ever speaking about him. I have read about him from coming into contact with Greek Old Calenderists, and always wondered. Perhaps I might ask someone who knows.
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« Reply #154 on: March 31, 2013, 02:14:50 AM »

I was going from memory and looked it up in the Rudder.  -- Edit: In other words, The Rudder has it listed under the Sixth Oecumenical Council.
I had a remark about the Rudder, but considering the hour I think I am going to leave it for later and hang it up for the night.  

Thanks for the conversation.
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« Reply #155 on: March 31, 2013, 03:57:23 AM »

Vasili,

Thanks for the link to the calendar website you sent. I could not sleep pondering this or awoke early which ever way you look at it.
In light of this conversation, I thought I would share this experience from my second visit to Mount Athos:

I recall on my second visit to Greece, a visit to Mount Athos in which I befriended an Australian monk of Greek extraction (Matthewite) three days before all the Matthewite monks convened at mountain hermitage for an all night vigil.  In the mean time, I communicated to my friend that I began my search among the protestant pentecostals and proceeded from them to literature of the fundamentalists which convinced me the pentecostals were in error.  I stayed with a conservative protestant Church in which women wore head coverings for about three years until I found a more exclusive branch of that sect which actually disappointed causing me to step back and broaden the search.  I checked out conservative Lutherans and began reading literature by conservative catholics like Hilaire Belloc who demonstrated to me for the first time the ugly side of protestant history.  I got a subscription to a conservative papist newspaper called the Wanderer and eventually an anti-Vatican II newspaper founded by the publishers more traditional brother in the 1960's. 

I ultimately realized that although papism was clearly not the truth, it did as a fact have more residue or vestiges of Christian heritage than protestantism.  This made me think as to what preceeded the papists and I thought of the Byzantines, and I cautiously and slowly but deliberately turned to reorient myself towards the Greek Orthodox Church. 
Understanding what I did by that point about various traditionalist or conservative movements within papism and protestantism, as soon as I perceived that an Old Clendarist movement existed in the Greek Orthodox Church, I searched high and low for a book to explain it, and the best I located was the "Struggle Against Ecumenism 1924-1994' by Metropolitan Ephraim of Boston (HOCNA) in the Light and Life catalog.  This book took me a long way.  This history book was the first book I bought about Christian Orthodoxy, and I discovered the Matthewites from that book.  Reading between the lines, I also discerned that the Matthewites had the truth rather than the followers of Chrysostomos of Florina.  I initially followed the synod of Bishop Gregory of Kalamata until I took the time to learn the truth about iconography, but that part came later.   

I explained all this history about how I discovered the Matthewites to my friend on the first day and we settled in.  When we went to the vigil, we arrived early with a knowledgeable Serbian monk from Karoulia.  The Archimandrite Chrysostomos of Katounakia arrived much later (that synod's Archbishop).  When he arrived, I went to him last after all the Fathers and very reverently kissed his hand. 

Afterwards, when everyone was sitting to eat, the Archimandrite asked the Australian monk "Who is this american and what are his intentions?"  My friend explained and repeated all the history to him including details about the Matthewites.  Once Archimandrite Chrysostomos had heard all this, a slight spirit of levity took hold and he began laughing and said "If he really has been through all that, then it sounds like he's going to go all the way to the top.  My guess is he'll pass us up too."
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« Reply #156 on: March 31, 2013, 04:26:37 AM »

I would like historical evidence of the attitude of the Archbishops of Patriarchs of Moscow towards the Patriarchate of Constantinople from the 1450's to the 1650's.  Considering that the Patriarchate of Constantinople was a simonaical system and the direct spiritual descendent of the heretics of the Council of Florence, I wonder if there is evidence that a synod officially decreed them to be schismatic. 

I will see if I can locate this article:
'The Reception of the Council of Florence in Moscow' by M. Cherniavsky 
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« Reply #157 on: March 31, 2013, 08:49:37 AM »

The name Greek itself is a giveaway.  The ancient Christian Canons consistently and unitedly and outspokenly the ways of the Greeks to hell.  That any devout Orthodox Christian would want to call themselves a Greek signifies to me a cultivated ignorance of certain aspects Christian tradition. 

What about calling themselves American?

I also discerned that the Matthewites had the truth rather than the followers of Chrysostomos of Florina.

When referring to clergy or hierarchs, you are required by the forum rules to use their correct titles and not just names.
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« Reply #158 on: March 31, 2013, 11:16:22 AM »

I would like historical evidence of the attitude of the Archbishops of Patriarchs of Moscow towards the Patriarchate of Constantinople from the 1450's to the 1650's.  Considering that the Patriarchate of Constantinople was a simonaical system and the direct spiritual descendent of the heretics of the Council of Florence, I wonder if there is evidence that a synod officially decreed them to be schismatic. 

I will see if I can locate this article:
'The Reception of the Council of Florence in Moscow' by M. Cherniavsky 

It might not help you much, but, I did see written accounts from fellow Old Believers, who are in Germany currently, about this. Never heard of the book you make mention of, however.
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« Reply #159 on: March 31, 2013, 05:32:26 PM »

Are you certain that the Moscow bishops and Patriarchate did not recognize the Patriarchate of Constantinople at any point after the 1400's?

That statement seems a bit odd.  I would have thought that the schism with the Patriarchate of Constantinople occurred in the time of Patriarch Nikon simultaneously. 

Did the Russian Orthodox Church of the 1580's and does the Lipovan Synod accept the anathemas decreed against the Gregorian calendar by the Pan-Orthodox Synods held in Constantinople in the 1580's (i.e. before the Nikonian schism)?
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« Reply #160 on: March 31, 2013, 05:46:14 PM »

вєликаго,

To tell the truth, although it has been a long time coming, I think our conversation has persuaded me to follow the Lipovan Synod for the long term including baptism and marriage.  I have to visit and put some questions to the priest, but I am mostly convinced.  By all indications, your synod's faith and practice seem to very resoundingly resolve and settle multiple serious issues that I have seen with others for several years.  It is only a matter of time before I visit Holy Ascension. 

What about calling themselves American?
When referring to clergy or hierarchs, you are required by the forum rules to use their correct titles and not just names.

Knowing that I am persecuted for the sake of Jesus Christ is a high point of my week. Smiley  Recognizing that such evils as these are an indication of blessing from God confirms to me that I am on the right path. 
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« Reply #161 on: March 31, 2013, 05:48:31 PM »

Are you certain that the Moscow bishops and Patriarchate did not recognize the Patriarchate of Constantinople at any point after the 1400's?

That statement seems a bit odd.  I would have thought that the schism with the Patriarchate of Constantinople occurred in the time of Patriarch Nikon simultaneously.  

Did the Russian Orthodox Church of the 1580's and does the Lipovan Synod accept the anathemas decreed against the Gregorian calendar by the Pan-Orthodox Synods held in Constantinople in the 1580's (i.e. before the Nikonian schism)?

The Russian's anathematized anyone using the three finger sign of the Cross, and, established their own Patriarchate. The Greeks were undoubtably excommunicated. I have no knowledge about the Pan-Orthodox Synods held in Constantinople.



Are you certain that the Moscow bishops and Patriarchate did not recognize the Patriarchate of Constantinople at any point after the 1400's?

I'm not completely certain about every detail. I'm sure there are many things I do not know.
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« Reply #162 on: March 31, 2013, 06:00:58 PM »

The Russian's anathematized anyone using the three finger sign of the Cross
Could you quote the source for this?
Is it the Stoglav or something else? 

By the way, do you know of an English translation of the Stoglav?

The Russians ... established their own Patriarchate.
This did not happen until the end of the 1500's - over 150 years after the Council of Florence. 
I have to say that I get the impression that the Council of Florence was ultimately rejected by the Patriarchate of Constantinople - courtesy in no small way to the efforts of Saint Mark of Ephesus. 

The Greeks were undoubtably excommunicated.
I have to say that I have got to have a source for this before I would dare repeat it to anyone.
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« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »

The Russian's anathematized anyone using the three finger sign of the Cross
Could you quote the source for this?
Is it the Stoglav or something else?  

By the way, do you know of an English translation of the Stoglav?

The Russians ... established their own Patriarchate.
This did not happen until the end of the 1500's - over 150 years after the Council of Florence.  
I have to say that I get the impression that the Council of Florence was ultimately rejected by the Patriarchate of Constantinople - courtesy in no small way to the efforts of Saint Mark of Ephesus.  

The Greeks were undoubtably excommunicated.
I have to say that I have got to have a source for this before I would dare repeat it to anyone.

No English translation of the "Stoglav"; and yes in that council they excommunicated those who used three finger sign of cross, and confirmed it was heresy.

The Greeks were undoubtably excommunicated.
I have to say that I have got to have a source for this before I would dare repeat it to anyone.
I will look for a source; and I agree that it would be advisable to not stand on my statement without one.
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« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2013, 06:36:48 PM »

Not exactly concrete, and not in English, but here is a interesting quote:

1453 год - год падения Константинополя и крушения Византии. С падением Второго Рима пал и Афон. Обители были разрушены или пришли в запустение. Так завершилась эпоха древнего благочестия на Афоне.

"Thus ended the era of ancient piety on Athos". It is not a source that confirms, without a doubt that communion was over, which I will (still) endeavor to find for you, but I thought you might appreciate it.
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« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2013, 09:17:34 PM »

I will take a more penetrating look at extant works on Athos in English concerning the period available (such as Graham Speake's histor of Athos) as well as the seventeenth century. 

Fr. George Metallinos (new calendarist Greek) wrote a very nice book with revealing information about the very loose reception policy of the Patriarchate of Constantinople at certain periods during the past 500 to 600 years.  The British historian Steven Runciman wrote 'The Great Church in Captivity' about the Orthodox Church in the Ottoman Empire which is widely considered a standard history in English. 

I have to confess that I have so far been under the impression that the conquest of Constantinople by the Ottomans was basically a good thing.  Concurring with Greek historian Dimitri Kitsikis, Sultan Mehmed II won an epic victory for the Orthodox Church and for the Greeks.  The Ottomans saved the city from the Franks who are the enemies of the Orthodox Church.

My understanding is that the Ottoman Empire was a blessing from God to the Orthodox Church that provided a natural barrier to Frankist intrusion and influence and goes a long way to explaining why the Orthodox Church has survived intact to the great extent that it did.  More Byzantine institutions like monasteries were destroyed by nineteenth century Greek governments than were by the Ottomans.  The allies of Saint Gregory Palamas were allies of the Ottomans such as Emperor John Kantakouzenos who was an enemy of the oecumenists and Latinizers as was Sint Gregory Palamas.  Saint Gregory Palamas's defender in the Byzantine civil war was Emperor John Kantakouzenos, and he was also the greatest ally the Ottomans ever had.  He won the Byzantine civil war precisely because he struck a deal with Sultan Murad whom he viewed as a lesser evil than the armies of the Frankist papacy.  The Ottomans acquired their first foothold in europe precisely because of Sultan Murad's freindship with Emperor John Kantakouzenos.

With a couple of outstanding exceptions such as Emperor John Kantakouzenos and a couple of others, the Paleologues were East Roman empire's most degenerate dynasty.  To use a phrase from Malcolm X, the Paleologues were the "house negros" of Byzantium.  A prime example was Emperor Michael VIII who had many monks put to death who refused the ecclesial union with the Frankist papacy that he dictated.  The Paleologues did whatever the Franks wanted.  They had an exquisite Byzantine facade and a Frankist interior.  Most Paleologues had the two faced character which Prof. Alexander Kalomiros ascribed to europeans in 'Against False Union.'

The House Negro versus the Field Negro
By Malcolm X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

Emperor Manuel II was the last East Roman Emperor prior to the Council of Florence, and he was not in an ecclesial union with the Franks, but his two successor Emperors (also sons) died in ecclesial union with the Frankist Church.  Thus, the two Byzantine Emperors who ruled from the time of the Council of Florence to the ascension of Patriarch Gennadios were apostates including emperor Constantine XI Paleologos.

I have found that as a rule, the Eastern Romans (Byzantines) who wanted ecclesial union with the Franks were enemies of the Ottomans at all costs including even the integrity of the Orthodox Church. Such were anti-Palamites like the writer Nicephoras Geegoras and anti-Ottoman historians such as George Sphrantzes and Doukas - Doukas being the more extreme.   

The Byzantine historians which were sympathetic to the Ottomans included Laonikos Chalkokondyles (1300's) and Mikael Kristoboulos (early to mid-1400's), and these did not have any sympathy for ecclesial union with the Latins.  The historians Giorgios Acropolites (1200's) and Giorgios Pachymeres (late 1200's) could also be included in this category for the earlier history such as that of the pro-western Emperor Michael VIII of whom Pachymeres portrays critically. 
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« Reply #166 on: March 31, 2013, 09:27:17 PM »

I will take a more penetrating look at extant works on Athos in English concerning the period available (such as Graham Speake's histor of Athos) as well as the seventeenth century. 

Fr. George Metallinos (new calendarist Greek) wrote a very nice book with revealing information about the very loose reception policy of the Patriarchate of Constantinople at certain periods during the past 500 to 600 years.  The British historian Steven Runciman wrote 'The Great Church in Captivity' about the Orthodox Church in the Ottoman Empire which is widely considered a standard history in English. 

I have to confess that I have so far been under the impression that the conquest of Constantinople by the Ottomans was basically a good thing.  Concurring with Greek historian Dimitri Kitsikis, Sultan Mehmed II won an epic victory for the Orthodox Church and for the Greeks.  The Ottomans saved the city from the Franks who are the enemies of the Orthodox Church.

My understanding is that the Ottoman Empire was a blessing from God to the Orthodox Church that provided a natural barrier to Frankist intrusion and influence and goes a long way to explaining why the Orthodox Church has survived intact to the great extent that it did.  More Byzantine institutions like monasteries were destroyed by nineteenth century Greek governments than were by the Ottomans.  The allies of Saint Gregory Palamas were allies of the Ottomans such as Emperor John Kantakouzenos who was an enemy of the oecumenists and Latinizers as was Sint Gregory Palamas.  Saint Gregory Palamas's defender in the Byzantine civil war was Emperor John Kantakouzenos, and he was also the greatest ally the Ottomans ever had.  He won the Byzantine civil war precisely because he struck a deal with Sultan Murad whom he viewed as a lesser evil than the armies of the Frankist papacy.  The Ottomans acquired their first foothold in europe precisely because of Sultan Murad's freindship with Emperor John Kantakouzenos.

With a couple of outstanding exceptions such as Emperor John Kantakouzenos and a couple of others, the Paleologues were East Roman empire's most degenerate dynasty.  To use a phrase from Malcolm X, the Paleologues were the "house negros" of Byzantium.  A prime example was Emperor Michael VIII who had many monks put to death who refused the ecclesial union with the Frankist papacy that he dictated.  The Paleologues did whatever the Franks wanted.  They had an exquisite Byzantine facade and a Frankist interior.  Most Paleologues had the two faced character which Prof. Alexander Kalomiros ascribed to europeans in 'Against False Union.'

The House Negro versus the Field Negro
By Malcolm X
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

Emperor Manuel II was the last East Roman Emperor prior to the Council of Florence, and he was not in an ecclesial union with the Franks, but his two successor Emperors (also sons) died in ecclesial union with the Frankist Church.  Thus, the two Byzantine Emperors who ruled from the time of the Council of Florence to the ascension of Patriarch Gennadios were apostates including emperor Constantine XI Paleologos.

I have found that as a rule, the Eastern Romans (Byzantines) who wanted ecclesial union with the Franks were enemies of the Ottomans at all costs including even the integrity of the Orthodox Church. Such were anti-Palamites like the writer Nicephoras Geegoras and anti-Ottoman historians such as George Sphrantzes and Doukas - Doukas being the more extreme.   

The Byzantine historians which were sympathetic to the Ottomans included Laonikos Chalkokondyles (1300's) and Mikael Kristoboulos (early to mid-1400's), and these did not have any sympathy for ecclesial union with the Latins.  The historians Giorgios Acropolites (1200's) and Giorgios Pachymeres (late 1200's) could also be included in this category for the earlier history such as that of the pro-western Emperor Michael VIII of whom Pachymeres portrays critically. 

I think the Franks and the Ottoman were, or are, more united then one might think.
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« Reply #167 on: April 01, 2013, 04:28:44 AM »

Knowing that I am persecuted for the sake of Jesus Christ is a high point of my week. Smiley  Recognizing that such evils as these are an indication of blessing from God confirms to me that I am on the right path.  

I have no idea what are you babbling about. You can keep your martyr complex to yourself.

No English translation of the "Stoglav"; and yes in that council they excommunicated those who used three finger sign of cross, and confirmed it was heresy.

That anathema has already been rescinded.
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« Reply #168 on: April 01, 2013, 09:38:15 AM »

In the context of asking a Deacon in Russia about the relationship between the Russia Orthodox Church and the Greek "Orthodox" Church after the Council of Florence, I  asked if the "Stoglav" anathematized all who do not make the sign of the cross with two fingers.

Quote from: a email from a Old Believer Deacon in Russia
Yes, in Chapter 31: "Иже кто не знаменуется двема персты, якоже и Христос, да есть проклят." (If anyone should fail to make the sign of the cross with two fingers, as Christ did, may he be accursed).

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« Reply #169 on: April 02, 2013, 12:50:29 PM »


Saint Metropolitan Jonas of Moscow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_of_Moscow

"Saint Jonas was the Metropolitan of Moscow from 1448 to his death in 1461. He was the first independent (rather autocephalous to be more precise - Dionysii) Metropolitan of Moscow and all Rus', having been appointed without the approval of the patriarch in Constantinople as was the norm."

"Metropolitan Without Consent after Isidore had been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1441, for his support of Catholicism and the union of the Eastern and Western Churches agreed upon at the Council of Florence-Ferrara, the metropolitan throne sat vacant for seven years, and Jonah became Metropolitan only on December 15, 1448 without the consent of the Patriarch of Constantinople.  This signified the establishment of the autocephaly of the Russian Orthodox Church."

- Wikipedia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very pertinent.

The term autocephalous settles the matter.  I understand from this that the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not in fact officially fall into schism until 1666 when it fell out of the Orthodox Church at the same time as the Patriarchate of Moscow. 

The synod of Florence signified an oecumenist disease that heavily pervaded the Phanarian Greek speaking bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the fifteenth century.  The Church of Russia became autocephalous in 1448 to prevent its own level of spirituality from becoming infected by the Greek bishops.  The holiness which this arrangement secured for Russia was undone when Patriarch Nikon acted as a puppet for the Phanar.  The majority of Ottoman Greek bishops from the 1600's onwards effectively became religious ministers of the Ottoman system with no spirituality what so ever.  They lived opulently like their pasha friends with whom they spent the days smoking pipes.  Not every Greek bishop lived this way, especially in the earlier phases of the Ottoman empire before the 1600's, but the apostasy and westernization of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Greek speaking Churches of the Ottoman empire progressed with time.  By the 1700's, the majority of Greek clergy thought less of God than of a new Greek identity that was in fact totally fabricated on the european model.  These schismatics followed old wive's tales (one of which is nationalism), and they forgot about Orthodox Christian faith. 

The apostasy of the Patriarchaate of Constantinople in 1666 explains many factors which are otherwise inexplicable such as the Frankist Synod of Bethlehem of 1672 and an heretical Synod of Constntinople of 1727 which has never been rescinded.  The Patriarchate of Constantinople also began a long term interaction with the protestant Anglican hierarchy in the late 1600's.  "Bishop" John Wesley was ordained a bishop by a Greek bishop in the 1770's and subsequently founded the Methodist Church which traces its hierarchical origins to the apostate Greeks of this era.  Many queer things occurred in the 1700's which indicate the character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople at the time.  That this Patriarchate in fact became heretical of the second degree, or schismatic, explains all of this.   

What I wanted to say about the Rudder (the Pedalion) is that it is an indication of the depth of the Greek apostasy.  Any decent scholar in this area is aware that the Rudder has errors - particularly with regard to iconography since the opinions in the Rudder advocate western iconography.  The Rudder is not a compendium of the records of the Seven Oecumenical Synods.  It is a book of the opinions of one monk.  I feel compelled to add that I think that the writings of the Kollyvades were generally good, and they generally represented the best of the Ottoman Orthodox Christians.  A good and representative example of their political attitude is that of Monk Nikodemos himself who argued that the revolution against the Ottomans was wrong and a mistake.     

An interesting after thought of this analysis is the observation that the Bishopric of Rome fell in the year 999 (the year of three popes which included the first Frankist pope), and the Bishopric of New Rome fell in the year 1666.
 I asked you to refer to clergy with their respective titles. It doesn't matter if you respect them or not. Putting them in brackets is not acceptable. 7 days of warning - MK.
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« Reply #170 on: April 02, 2013, 12:54:01 PM »

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #171 on: April 02, 2013, 01:57:15 PM »

"Ambrosii was born Andreas Popovic in 1791 in Maistra, at that time part of the Ottoman Empire. He was of Greek origin."
Yet his last name is Slavic...

I believe people at this time did not distinguish between Greek and Slavic other than linguistically.    
All the Orthodox Christians of the Ottoman Empire considered themselves Romans or Roumeli, and the Ottoman muslims considered them in the same way without any racial or ethnic distinction which was later fabricated based along linguistic lines which ultimately proved fratricidal when they tore each other apart in the Balkan wars and WWI.

A Greek writer by the name of Paschalis Kitromilides has written well on this importatation of nationalism from the european "enlightnement" - a movement which was quite opposed by the Kollyvades:

'Imagined Communities and the Origin of the National Question in the Balkans'
By Paschalis Kitromilides
http://www.arts.yorku.ca/hist/tgallant/courses/documents/kitromilides.pdf

The Chrisitan race is one, and the modern doctrine of racialism is an invention imported from europe and intended to divide Orthodox Christians.  Saint Epiphanios of Cyprus wrote that only two races exist - good and evil.

I think the more important distinction is between Orthodox and Old Orthodox Christians.  A Slavic last name versus a "Greek" origin is a not central to the issue.  What matters (to me) is his conversion to Old Orthodoxy.  Saint Ambrosii was consecrated a bishop by the same hierarchy from which my synod's bishops derive.  

You are going to make me look like a racist for pointing out an inconsistency in wikipedia article?  Shocked  wow...talking about a Christian spirit here...You completely missed the point I was trying to make...

Let me redefine the question how did St. Amrosii end up in Bosnia and under whose jurisdiction were those present during the ceremony of him becoming a bishop? What about the existing Orthodox Bishops who were there at the time (under SOC), were they not Orthodox enough?  Have in mind that I am not here to argue with you, I just would like a little clarification about the situation.

Also, I do not care who is of what nationality or race...but if someone has a slavic name and a source (even are unrealiable as wikipedia) indicates that that same person is of Greek origin then something is not right...I personally don't care if he was Greek or Slavic, but it questions the validity of other information from the same source.  That is why I asked you to provide me more information about the St. Ambrosii because I am interested who he was...Still don't understand why do you need to be so defensive and label others... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #172 on: April 02, 2013, 02:28:06 PM »

You are going to make me look like a racist for pointing out ...

Such an idea in fact never entered my mind.
If what I posted gave that impression, then I apologize as that was certainly not what was intended.

In fact, I think all posts which you made which I read were pertinent, observant, and informative.
Your posts were outstanding without exception. 

As to this particular post, I did considerably meander on a tangent concerning one remark you made because I am have been interested in that subject.  I understand that the question as to whether he was Greek, Slavic or whatever had nothing to do with your main point.  Apologize again if my post sounded critical as it was rather meant to be a point of view about the historical course of Balkan apostasy. 

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« Reply #173 on: April 02, 2013, 02:33:15 PM »

To update this thread I wanted to add that I recently came across a photo album online of the 2009 Pilgrimage lead by Metropolitan Cornelius here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/103958429917072850819/OldBeliever2009#

Great stuff here.  Really appreciate this. 
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« Reply #174 on: April 02, 2013, 02:33:37 PM »

I think our conversation has persuaded me to follow the Lipovan Synod for the long term including baptism and marriage. 

Wow, that was quick.
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« Reply #175 on: April 02, 2013, 02:40:00 PM »

That is why I asked you to provide me more information about the St. Ambrosii because I am interested who he was...

St Amvrosii of Belo-Krinitsa
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/id22.html

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #176 on: April 02, 2013, 02:51:30 PM »

I think our conversation has persuaded me to follow the Lipovan Synod for the long term including baptism and marriage.

Wow, that was quick.

I have had an interest in the Old Orthodox Church for over ten years including travelling to Erie for the sole purpose of speaking with Fr. Pimen and other clergy there about the Church and using the prayer book which they publish at home as my personal prayer book.  My friend's conversation has supplemented other things.  

However, I do not think you are so naive.  I perceive you already realize that I am not brand new to the Old Orthodox Church.  In my opinion, the real issue is likely that some of what I posted disturbs your confidence in the genuineness of your own faith as you now understand it.  On that note, I must commend Putnik Namernik as he strikes me as someone with a love for the truth. 
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« Reply #177 on: April 02, 2013, 02:58:52 PM »

I think our conversation has persuaded me to follow the Lipovan Synod for the long term including baptism and marriage.

Wow, that was quick.

If I were to heed advice such as this, then I will be over a hundred years old before I get around to being baptized. 

I believe that when I recognize the truth, then it is time to be pro-active about it. 
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« Reply #178 on: April 02, 2013, 03:10:19 PM »

I have a question for вєликаго concerning the priestless old Believers. 

Have you ever encountered any evidence that priestless fanaticism was aided by either the Romanovs or the Patriarchate of Constantinople in order to discredit the Old Faith generally?
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« Reply #179 on: April 02, 2013, 03:13:10 PM »

Part of my conversation with my friend, who is a Deacon in Russia. Questions are mine, answers are from my friend.

 Q.) I am of the understanding, that they (the Greek Orthodox Church) fell into heresy, during that time;
 A.)Yes, Greeks were heretics-uniates.
 Q. resulting in the end of communion between the Russian and Greek Church.
 A.)The communion was interrupted until restoration of the Orthodoxy in Constantinople.

Seems I was mistaken. I am asking for more details.



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« Reply #180 on: April 02, 2013, 03:19:09 PM »

I have a question for вєликаго concerning the priestless old Believers. 

Have you ever encountered any evidence that priestless fanaticism was aided by either the Romanovs or the Patriarchate of Constantinople in order to discredit the Old Faith generally?

No. But I do find it a good question.
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« Reply #181 on: April 02, 2013, 03:26:47 PM »

I think our conversation has persuaded me to follow the Lipovan Synod for the long term including baptism and marriage.

Wow, that was quick.

I have had an interest in the Old Orthodox Church for over ten years including travelling to Erie for the sole purpose of speaking with Fr. Pimen and other clergy there about the Church and using the prayer book which they publish at home as my personal prayer book.  My friend's conversation has supplemented other things.  

However, I do not think you are so naive.  I perceive you already realize that I am not brand new to the Old Orthodox Church.  In my opinion, the real issue is likely that some of what I posted disturbs your confidence in the genuineness of your own faith as you now understand it.  On that note, I must commend Putnik Namernik as he strikes me as someone with a love for the truth

Thank you for the link you posted previously.  I did not know thath there we Old Believers in the Balkans at that time. I am asking for mere informative reasons for I do not wish to remain ignorant of things.  Thank you for the kind bolded words. I do not believe that Iconodule's doubts his faith...However it can be overwhelming to all of us when we see so many jurisdictions and disputes which have happened among the Orthodox...

For me there can be only one Truth and that is Jesus Christ.  I have found Orthodoxy to be the true way of interpreting Jesus's words not just in theory but in practice for I had a fortune to venerate the holy body of numerous Saints (St. Basil of Ostrog for an example whose miracles never stop...). It is my hope that Orthodoxy becames reunited one day where the whole world east (Russia) and west (America) become brothers and sisters in Christ but not through modifiation of one's beliefs in order to accomodate the wider range of Christians...not at all...but to all believe in Christ in apostolic way passed to us from our forefathers.  This is by no means my way of imposing this to others or labeling them as heretics...it is just my mear hope that we can all be saved through our Saviour Jesus Christ.  May God help us for only he can!
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« Reply #182 on: April 02, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »

A.)Yes, Greeks were heretics-uniates.
That description makes a lot of historical sense.  

A.)The communion was interrupted until restoration of the Orthodoxy in Constantinople.
 
By "restoration of Orthodoxy in Constantinople," I take it that he means shortly after the Synod of Florence when they correctly reiterated the truth.

I do not think anyone except Frankists would argue that the Patriarchate of Constantinople did indeed briefly exit the Church during the time of the Synod of Florence, but to assert that they never came back seems to conlict with too much of what I have read.
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« Reply #183 on: April 02, 2013, 03:34:03 PM »

Thank you for the link you posted previously.  I did not know thath there we Old Believers in the Balkans at that time. I am asking for mere informative reasons for I do not wish to remain ignorant of things.  Thank you for the kind bolded words. I do not believe that Iconodule's doubts his faith...However it can be overwhelming to all of us when we see so many jurisdictions and disputes which have happened among the Orthodox...

For me there can be only one Truth and that is Jesus Christ.  I have found Orthodoxy to be the true way of interpreting Jesus's words not just in theory but in practice for I had a fortune to venerate the holy body of numerous Saints (St. Basil of Ostrog for an example whose miracles never stop...). It is my hope that Orthodoxy becames reunited one day where the whole world east (Russia) and west (America) become brothers and sisters in Christ but not through modifiation of one's beliefs in order to accomodate the wider range of Christians...not at all...but to all believe in Christ in apostolic way passed to us from our forefathers.  This is by no means my way of imposing this to others or labeling them as heretics...it is just my mear hope that we can all be saved through our Saviour Jesus Christ.  May God help us for only he can!
Amen, brother.
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« Reply #184 on: April 02, 2013, 04:39:57 PM »

it can be overwhelming to all of us when we see so many jurisdictions and disputes which have happened among the Orthodox...
This multiplication of jurisdictions is not overwhelming to me partially because my faith has followed the "Matthewite" Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church ever since I converted to the Orthodox Church.  The Matthewite view of the Oecumenist Encyclical of 1920 and the Greek schism of 1924 is that the New Calendarist simply left out of the true Church at that time.  For a while, this sufficed to explain most of the problems in Orthodoxy in the twentieth century.

However, as time passed I discovered discrepancies in the "Orthodox Church's" past as well (especially in the 1600's - 1800's) which were quite out of step with Christian tradition and uncanonical.  Some people including even monastics and clergy have argued to me on occasion that the mere antiquity of such errors is justification in itself for disallowing modern criticism of these things.  Yet I am reminded of Fr. Leonid Ouspensky's opening words in 'Theology of the Icon' that the mere fact that an error has persevered for centuries does not make a wrong thing right.  I believe the highlighted words in the quote below explain why I am not overwhelmed at the multiplication of "Orthodox" jurisdictions:
 
Saint Metropolitan Jonas of Moscow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah_of_Moscow

"Saint Jonas was the Metropolitan of Moscow from 1448 to his death in 1461. He was the first independent (rather autocephalous to be more precise - Dionysii) Metropolitan of Moscow and all Rus', having been appointed without the approval of the patriarch in Constantinople as was the norm."

"Metropolitan Without Consent after Isidore had been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church in 1441, for his support of Catholicism and the union of the Eastern and Western Churches agreed upon at the Council of Florence-Ferrara, the metropolitan throne sat vacant for seven years, and Jonah became Metropolitan only on December 15, 1448 without the consent of the Patriarch of Constantinople.  This signified the establishment of the autocephaly of the Russian Orthodox Church."

- Wikipedia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Very pertinent.

The term autocephalous settles the matter.  I understand from this that the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not in fact officially fall into schism until 1666 when it fell out of the Orthodox Church at the same time as the Patriarchate of Moscow.  

The synod of Florence signified an oecumenist disease that heavily pervaded the Phanarian Greek speaking bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the fifteenth century.  The Church of Russia became autocephalous in 1448 to prevent its own level of spirituality from becoming infected by the Greek bishops.  The holiness which this arrangement secured for Russia was undone when Patriarch Nikon acted as a puppet for the Phanar.  The majority of Ottoman Greek bishops from the 1600's onwards effectively became religious ministers of the Ottoman system with no spirituality what so ever.  They lived opulently like their pasha friends with whom they spent the days smoking pipes.  Not every Greek bishop lived this way, especially in the earlier phases of the Ottoman empire before the 1600's, but the apostasy and westernization of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Greek speaking Churches of the Ottoman empire progressed with time.  By the 1700's, the majority of Greek clergy thought less of God than of a new Greek identity that was in fact totally fabricated on the european model.  These schismatics followed old wive's tales (one of which is nationalism), and they forgot about Orthodox Christian faith.  

The apostasy of the Patriarchaate of Constantinople in 1666 explains many factors which are otherwise inexplicable such as the Frankist Synod of Bethlehem of 1672 and an heretical Synod of Constntinople of 1727 which has never been rescinded.  The Patriarchate of Constantinople also began a long term interaction with the protestant Anglican hierarchy in the late 1600's.  "Bishop" John Wesley was ordained a bishop by a Greek bishop in the 1770's and subsequently founded the Methodist Church which traces its hierarchical origins to the apostate Greeks of this era.  Many queer things occurred in the 1700's which indicate the character of the Patriarchate of Constantinople at the time.  That this Patriarchate in fact became heretical of the second degree, or schismatic, explains all of this.    

What I wanted to say about the Rudder (the Pedalion) is that it is an indication of the depth of the Greek apostasy.  Any decent scholar in this area is aware that the Rudder has errors - particularly with regard to iconography since the opinions in the Rudder advocate western iconography.  The Rudder is not a compendium of the records of the Seven Oecumenical Synods.  It is a book of the opinions of one monk.  I feel compelled to add that I think that the writings of the Kollyvades were generally good, and they generally represented the best of the Ottoman Orthodox Christians.  A good and representative example of their political attitude is that of Monk Nikodemos himself who argued that the revolution against the Ottomans was wrong and a mistake.      

An interesting after thought of this analysis is the observation that the Bishopric of Rome fell in the year 999 (the year of three popes which included the first Frankist pope), and the Bishopric of New Rome fell in the year 1666.
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« Reply #185 on: April 02, 2013, 05:44:02 PM »

"The history of this controversy is a fascinating one in its own right, but at the same time it provides
insight into the inner workings of the Russian Orthodox Church. This practical value of that
knowledge should not be underestimated -- the Russian church at that time was no different from
the other Orthodox churches, and the Orthodox churches of today do not operate any differently.
Today's Orthodox hierarchs don't have armies at their command, but they and their willing minions
often use what power they do possess in the same way as their predecessors described in these
pages. Besides that, this is an excellent illustration of how the Eastern Orthodox Church has
always resolved -- or failed to resolve -- its theological issues
."

- from the introduction to 'Heresy on Mount Athos' by Tom Dykstra of Saint Vladimir's Seminary (OCA)

'Heresy of Mount Athos:Conflict over the Name of God Among Russian Monks and Hierarchs, 1912–1914'
By Tom Dykstra
http://www.pravoslav.de/imiaslavie/english/dykstra/dikstra.htm
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« Reply #186 on: April 02, 2013, 06:18:06 PM »

"The history of this controversy is a fascinating one in its own right, but at the same time it provides
insight into the inner workings of the Russian Orthodox Church. This practical value of that
knowledge should not be underestimated -- the Russian church at that time was no different from
the other Orthodox churches, and the Orthodox churches of today do not operate any differently.
Today's Orthodox hierarchs don't have armies at their command, but they and their willing minions
often use what power they do possess in the same way as their predecessors described in these
pages. Besides that, this is an excellent illustration of how the Eastern Orthodox Church has
always resolved -- or failed to resolve -- its theological issues
."

- from the introduction to 'Heresy on Mount Athos' by Tom Dykstra of Saint Vladimir's Seminary (OCA)

'Heresy on Mount Athos: Conflict over the Name of God Among Russian Monks and Hierarchs, 1912–1914'
By Tom Dykstra
http://www.pravoslav.de/imiaslavie/english/dykstra/dikstra.htm


EDIT:  For the record, I have not given Tom Dykstra a title as I have no knowledge that he is a member of the clergy.  
I cite his name exactly as I find it in the book which he wrote which I have linked.
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« Reply #187 on: April 02, 2013, 06:52:41 PM »

I asked you to refer to clergy with their respective titles. It doesn't matter if you respect them or not. Putting them in brackets is not acceptable. 7 days of warning - MK.[/color]
I have taken pains and extra time to adhere to what you have wanted.
You have never said to me before that brackets were unacceptable. 
If you would have said that beforehand, then I would not have done that, but I cannot read your mind.

Be that as it may.  May God bless you.
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« Reply #188 on: April 02, 2013, 06:59:55 PM »

It doesn't matter if you respect them or not.
I aksed another member of this board if Michael Kalina acts like this towards everyone or have I been singled out, and they responded that this forum is very hostile towards positive expressions reguarding Old Believer Christians.  

That being the case, I would humbly suggest that you heed your own advice.
Have a good day.

If you wish to complain about a moderatorial action taken against you, the proper avenue to follow is to appeal the action via private message to the moderator who took the action. Public argument with or complaint about a moderatorial action is not tolerated on this forum and will be met with harsher discipline than this if you continue.

Considering that you are relatively new here and don't yet have much of a rap sheet with us, I am only extending your warning from 7 days to 30. If, however, you choose to argue with this warning publicly, you will be placed on post moderation, where each of your posts will need to be screened by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. Again, if you feel this action is unfair, please appeal it to me via private message.

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« Reply #189 on: April 03, 2013, 07:55:36 AM »

In my opinion, the real issue is likely that some of what I posted disturbs your confidence in the genuineness of your own faith as you now understand it.

What about calling themselves American?
When referring to clergy or hierarchs, you are required by the forum rules to use their correct titles and not just names.

Knowing that I am persecuted for the sake of Jesus Christ is a high point of my week. Smiley  Recognizing that such evils as these are an indication of blessing from God confirms to me that I am on the right path.  

Internet exchanges obviously make a huge impression on you.
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« Reply #190 on: April 03, 2013, 11:35:31 AM »

This following selection from Vladimir Moss book New Zion in Babylon The Orthodox Church in the Twentieth Century gives an interesting look into the history of the Old Believers in the early Twentieth Century. It gives what I see as damning testimony against the Novozybkov Hierarchy ...

I do not come to this conclusion about the Novozybkov hierarchy from what you have quoted here. 
I understand that the biography of its founding Bishop is commendable. 
Furthermore, (to my knowledge) Patriarch Alexander has not shown the warmth towards the Patriarch Kirill of Moscow which Metropolitan Cornelius has had.  The course of Patriarch Alexander seems more steady from my perspective. 

I respect the Bela Krinitsa hierarchy, but I am concerned about what I here about Metropolitan Cornelius's relations with the Moscow Patriarchate.  Has there been a shift in policy from that of his predecessors?  Considering the history of the Moscow Patriarchate as an instrument of the KGB and FSB and the recent history involving the subversion of ROCOR, the possibility that Metropolitan Cornelius is an oecumenist in compliance with the wishes of the FSB which itself would prefer to destroy the autonomy of Bela Krinitsa should be considered. 
I would like to know more about the Bela Krinitsa Synod with respect to oecumenism. 

By the way, the things you have posted have truly been most educational and are most appreciated. 
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« Reply #191 on: April 03, 2013, 11:36:27 AM »

My friend, from Russia said that "Orthodoxy in Constantinople was restored only after the Turkish conquest in 1453."

But then he explained how, "The Greeks were not excommunicated by the Russians because of 3 fingers but in Greece even in 1470s 2 finger sign of cross was dominant...."
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« Reply #192 on: April 03, 2013, 11:49:55 AM »

My friend, from Russia said that "Orthodoxy in Constantinople was restored only after the Turkish conquest in 1453."
Yes, the restoration of Orthodoxy in Constantinople shortly after the Synod of Florence was my understanding as well.
It appears that God used the Ottomans to disempower the unionists.  

"The Greeks were not excommunicated by the Russians because of 3 fingers but in Greece even in 1470s 2 finger sign of cross was dominant...."
Good to hear.  
This arouses my interest in the history of the Phanar and historical trends towards apostasy from the late 1500's to 1667.

The Pan-Orthodox Synods of Constantinople which condemned the Gregorian calendar in the time of Patriarch Jermias indicates that the Patriarchate of Constantinople was not generally receptive to union with the Papacy at that time.  From what I have read, I get the impression that the actions of the Ottomans helped preserve the integrity of the Patriarchate of Constantinople in spite of itself.  I specifically recall reading that on one occasion Patriarch Jeremias himself had condescended to consider an invitation from the Franks, and this is what caused the SUltan to depose him.  

The Union of Brest of 1596 united the Metropolia of Kiev with the Franks.  The Papacy's most likely strategy viewed their acquisition of the Metropolia of Kiev in 1595 as a wedge between the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow which they could use to subvert both of them analogous to the way that the CIA has tried to use Georgia as a wedge between Russia and Iran.  

The next logical step for the Unia was to convert hierarchs to their cause whom they could use against the Orthodox Church, and they found their man in Metropolitan Peter Mogila.
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« Reply #193 on: April 03, 2013, 12:07:18 PM »

He also, when referring to the two finger sign of the Cross, mentioned a "Greek Euchologions rewritten 1475 (published by Dmitrievsky in 19 c.) one may find: ει της ου σφραγίζει τοις δυσι δακτύλοις καθώς και ο Χριστος - ανάθεμα - the same as in the Stoglav."

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« Reply #194 on: April 03, 2013, 02:13:49 PM »

Patriarch Alexander of Moscow (Old Rite Orthodox Church - Novozybkov) has a dialogue with Bishop Kirykos of the Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Synod (Matthewite) during a prior visit to Greece to discuss theological differences.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=Km5cUZ3kL4GC8ATOvoGgDg&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D651&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&u=http://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/life/Greece2008.htm&usg=ALkJrhimKbw-wh7oWsEdraPMI4EktGluUg

- from the Russian Old Rite Orthodox Church (Novozybkov) website
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« Reply #195 on: April 03, 2013, 02:43:22 PM »

My friend, from Russia said that "Orthodoxy in Constantinople was restored only after the Turkish conquest in 1453."
But then he explained how, "The Greeks were not excommunicated by the Russians because of 3 fingers but in Greece even in 1470s 2 finger sign of cross was dominant...."

Here is a page of links to Canons of various Church Synods from the Old Rite website of the Patriarchate of Moscow (Old Rite - Novozybkov) that might be useful.  Unfortunately, the link to the Stoglav does not seem to be working, or else we would have it in English courtesy of google.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=Km5cUZ3kL4GC8ATOvoGgDg&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D651&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&u=http://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/doc.htm&usg=ALkJrhhPRSOMy6lP32qMvK1b4SQXjVi7nA
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« Reply #196 on: April 03, 2013, 02:56:48 PM »

My friend, from Russia said that "Orthodoxy in Constantinople was restored only after the Turkish conquest in 1453."
But then he explained how, "The Greeks were not excommunicated by the Russians because of 3 fingers but in Greece even in 1470s 2 finger sign of cross was dominant...."

Here is a page of links to Canons of various Church Synods from the Old Rite website of the Patriarchate of Moscow (Old Rite - Novozybkov) that might be useful.  Unfortunately, the link to the Stoglav does not seem to be working, or else we would have it in English courtesy of google.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&ei=Km5cUZ3kL4GC8ATOvoGgDg&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D651&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&u=http://ancient-orthodoxy.narod.ru/doc.htm&usg=ALkJrhhPRSOMy6lP32qMvK1b4SQXjVi7nA

Thanks for the links. The Stoglav does not translate well, via google (in fact, its very unreadable).
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« Reply #197 on: April 03, 2013, 03:08:09 PM »

The Belokrinitsky hierarchy was started by the Greek Metropolitan Ambrose.  The Novozybkov hierarchy under Patriarch Alexander also appears to have originated from a single bishop who joined the Old Believers, though in this case it was a Russian “Nikonian” bishop, Abp Ambrose of Ufa.  From an ecclesiological perspective, I do not understand how either hierarchy can be considered to have apostolic succession from an Old Believer point of view.  The problem with all of the Old Believers is that they believe the Church can exist without bishops, and in the case of the Bolokrinitsky and Novozybkov, they believe that laypeople can essentially consecrate a bishop.  St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, states concerning the role of the bishop:

Quote
Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it.
---
It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure.
---
…he who honoureth the bishop, is honoured of God; he who doeth anything without the knowledge of the bishop, serveth the devil.

No bishop followed the Old Believers into their schism, and this initial schism gave birth to further schisms amongst them, as occurred with the Protestants.  Since the Old Believers were without bishops, and they considered Nikonian and Greek bishops to be heretics, then all Orthodox bishops were considered by the Old Believers to be heretics.  According to the first canon of St. Basil, those who are in schism lose the grace of the Holy Spirit and do not have the authority to bestow on others the grace of baptism or consecration/ordination.  When Metropolitan Ambrose was received by the group of Old Believers now known as the Belokrinitsky, they had no bishops to properly receive him.  The same is the case with the Novozybkov and Abp Ambrose of Ufa.  If, as heretics, they did not have the grace of the Holy Spirit, by whose episcopal authority were these heretical (according to the Old Believers) bishops received, and whose episcopal hands bestowed upon them the grace of the episcopacy?

Neither the Belokrinitsy nor the Novozybkov have episcopal continuity with the pre-Nikonian Orthodox Church.  For a heretical bishop to be received as a bishop by a local church, that local church must have a synod of bishops to receive that bishop into their Synod.  Only a synod of bishops has the authority to accept a heretical bishop into the Church and permit that bishop to retain his orders.  Clergy and laity cannot receive a bishop from heresy into the Church.  Furthermore, after these priestless Old Believers “received” these heretical (according to them) bishops, these bishops proceeded to establish their hierarchies by first performing single-handed consecrations in direct contradiction of the first canon of the Holy Apostles.
 
Clearly what caused the serious reaction of the Old Believers to the Nikonian reforms were the anathemas of the Stoglav Council.  Yet, the Stoglav Council was a local council, attended by only nine bishops.  This Council was not accepted by the universal Church.  Councils are not inherently infallible just because a few bishops get together and make some declarations.  It is the universal Church that affirms the authority of a Council by their acceptance of its declarations as expressing the mind of the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

For the Eastern Orthodox considering joining the Old Believers, such a decision requires them to turn their backs on many of the Russian saints who considered the Old Believers to be in fact schismatics and outside of the Church, including St. Seraphim of Sarov, the Elders of Optina, St. Paisius (Velichkovsky), and countless other post-Nikonian saints of the Slavic world.  They would be also cutting themselves off from communion with St. John of San Francisco, St. Nektarios of Aegina, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, St. Cosmas the Aitolean, and countless other saints that have shown forth in the post-Nikonian and Greek lands.
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« Reply #198 on: April 03, 2013, 03:19:02 PM »

The Belokrinitsky hierarchy was started by the Greek Metropolitan Ambrose.  The Novozybkov hierarchy under Patriarch Alexander also appears to have originated from a single bishop who joined the Old Believers, though in this case it was a Russian “Nikonian” bishop, Abp Ambrose of Ufa.  From an ecclesiological perspective, I do not understand how either hierarchy can be considered to have apostolic succession from an Old Believer point of view.  The problem with all of the Old Believers is that they believe the Church can exist without bishops, and in the case of the Bolokrinitsky and Novozybkov, they believe that laypeople can essentially consecrate a bishop.  St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, states concerning the role of the bishop:

Quote
Let no one, apart from the bishop, do any of the things that appertain unto the church. Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is celebrated in the presence of the bishop, or of him to whom he shall have entrusted it.
---
It is not lawful either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast without the consent of the bishop; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that also is well pleasing unto God, to the end that whatever is done may be safe and sure.
---
…he who honoureth the bishop, is honoured of God; he who doeth anything without the knowledge of the bishop, serveth the devil.

No bishop followed the Old Believers into their schism, and this initial schism gave birth to further schisms amongst them, as occurred with the Protestants.  Since the Old Believers were without bishops, and they considered Nikonian and Greek bishops to be heretics, then all Orthodox bishops were considered by the Old Believers to be heretics.  According to the first canon of St. Basil, those who are in schism lose the grace of the Holy Spirit and do not have the authority to bestow on others the grace of baptism or consecration/ordination.  When Metropolitan Ambrose was received by the group of Old Believers now known as the Belokrinitsky, they had no bishops to properly receive him.  The same is the case with the Novozybkov and Abp Ambrose of Ufa.  If, as heretics, they did not have the grace of the Holy Spirit, by whose episcopal authority were these heretical (according to the Old Believers) bishops received, and whose episcopal hands bestowed upon them the grace of the episcopacy?

Neither the Belokrinitsy nor the Novozybkov have episcopal continuity with the pre-Nikonian Orthodox Church.  For a heretical bishop to be received as a bishop by a local church, that local church must have a synod of bishops to receive that bishop into their Synod.  Only a synod of bishops has the authority to accept a heretical bishop into the Church and permit that bishop to retain his orders.  Clergy and laity cannot receive a bishop from heresy into the Church.  Furthermore, after these priestless Old Believers “received” these heretical (according to them) bishops, these bishops proceeded to establish their hierarchies by first performing single-handed consecrations in direct contradiction of the first canon of the Holy Apostles.
 
Clearly what caused the serious reaction of the Old Believers to the Nikonian reforms were the anathemas of the Stoglav Council.  Yet, the Stoglav Council was a local council, attended by only nine bishops.  This Council was not accepted by the universal Church.  Councils are not inherently infallible just because a few bishops get together and make some declarations.  It is the universal Church that affirms the authority of a Council by their acceptance of its declarations as expressing the mind of the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

For the Eastern Orthodox considering joining the Old Believers, such a decision requires them to turn their backs on many of the Russian saints who considered the Old Believers to be in fact schismatics and outside of the Church, including St. Seraphim of Sarov, the Elders of Optina, St. Paisius (Velichkovsky), and countless other post-Nikonian saints of the Slavic world.  They would be also cutting themselves off from communion with St. John of San Francisco, St. Nektarios of Aegina, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, St. Cosmas the Aitolean, and countless other saints that have shown forth in the post-Nikonian and Greek lands.


"Hieromartyr" Andrew, Archbishop Of Ufa "Archbishop Andrew said the following to Clement before the chrismation: 'It is not your hand that is being lain upon me, but the hand of that patriarch who consecrated your ancient chrism: when you read the proclamation, and when I recite the heresies and confession of faith before chrismation, then I immediately become your bishop and can commune with you. But since I am your bishop, that means that a priest cannot anoint a bishop.'" [Source= http://www.orthodox.net/russiannm/andrew-archbishop-and-hieromartyr-of-ufa.html]

I'm not endorsing this man, whom I have some respect for, and have a mind to learn more about; I have read as much about this man as I could -- and I think that this quote has, at the least, if not more, a small amount of truth in it.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 03:49:51 PM by вєликаго » Logged

St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What
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« Reply #199 on: April 03, 2013, 03:42:27 PM »


The next logical step for the Unia was to convert hierarchs to their cause whom they could use against the Orthodox Church, and they found their man in Metropolitan Peter Mogila.


Thank you jah777 for articulating what I was thinking far more succinctly than could I.

Point of information: To those of us not associated with the Old Believer groups being discussed in this thread, the quoted statement regarding St. Peter Mohyla , Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich needs clarification. While aspects of St. Peter's life and works remain controversial, to those of us in communion with the canonical Orthodox Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow, Metropolitan Peter Mohyla is a Saint and Defender of Orthodoxy. He is specifically commemorated on January 1st and jointly with all Sainted Patriarchs of Kyiv on October 6th.

I am not challenging the right of the participants to this discussion to not regard him as a Saint or most of us as Orthodox. However, given that the canonical Orthodox world does not view many of the names mentioned by them as saints, I would be remiss in not pointing out our disagreements on these matters.

The history of the Russian Church is indeed full of very high points and many deep valleys of suffering and even despair. No faction is faultless in this history. By our modern standards the treatment of dissidents,including the Old Believers, is not defensible. We should all pray that God is ultimately more understanding of our shortcomings and more forgiving of us than we, who profess the Orthodox Faith, often are of each other.
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« Reply #200 on: April 03, 2013, 04:09:29 PM »

Internet exchanges obviously make a huge impression on you.
You may have a point in a sense. I think a little less of this might do me some good.   Smiley
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« Reply #201 on: April 03, 2013, 04:11:13 PM »

The next logical step for the Unia was to convert hierarchs to their cause whom they could use against the Orthodox Church, and they found their man in Metropolitan Peter Mogila.

St. Peter Mohyla , Metropolitan of Kyiv and Halich needs clarification. While aspects of St. Peter's life and works remain controversial, to those of us in communion with the canonical Orthodox Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow, Metropolitan Peter Mohyla is a Saint and Defender of Orthodoxy. He is specifically commemorated on January 1st and jointly with all Sainted Patriarchs of Kyiv on October 6th.

“Of course, there is another basic issue.  How are we to distinguish Apostles from sham apostles, Prophets from false prophets, Martyrs from those who are not true martyrs, Holy Ascetics from those who are not true holy men, saints from pseudo-saints?  The same rule applies here as in all human affairs.  Genuine scientists are discerned by those who have the same knowledge.  In other words, true saints can be discerned by true saints.  Saints recognize other saints.  When someone has the gift of discernment of spirits, which constitutes true Orthodox theology, he can discern whether or not spirits come from God, and distinguish what is created from what is uncreated.  This is something charismatic, not institutional.” 

“If there is one change in our times which epitomizes secularization, it is the loss of the criteria for Orthodox spirituality and sanctity.  As a result no distinction is made between true servants of God and ‘good’ people such as can be found within all religious traditions.  This actually represents an alteration to the Orthodox faith and an experience of demonic spirituality, with terrible consequences for the individual who honours someone as a saint, whereas the so-called saint is himself in need of God’s mercy.”

- From ‘Hesychia and Theology’ by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos
  (Chapter One, Part Six – The Gift of Discernment)
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« Reply #202 on: April 03, 2013, 04:28:30 PM »

Even though Fr. Georges Florovsky is critical of Russian Old Believers, when I read what he wrote about Metropolitan Peter Mogila in 'Ways of Russian Theology', I got the historical impression that Metropolitan Peter Mogila paved the way for the apostasy of the Patriarchates of Constantinople and Moscow in the 1660's.

'Ways of Russian Theology'
Volume 1, Chapter 2 "Encounter With the West"
By Fr. Georges Florovsky
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/florovsky_ways_chap2.html

It would be interesting to know more of the attitude of the Kollyvades towards Metropolitan Peter Mogila.  Especially considering that they were closer to him in time, I do not take it is a given that they would venerate a man with such a controversial history as a Saint without any prior investigation. 
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« Reply #203 on: April 03, 2013, 04:37:14 PM »

Two paragraphs about Metropolitan Peter Mogila quoted directly from 'Ways of Theology' by Fr. Georges Florovsky:

"Peter Mogila's attitude to the problems of the Roman Catholic Church was clear and simple. He did not see any real difference between Orthodoxy and Rome. He was convinced of the importance of canonical independence, but perceived no threat from inner "Latinization." Indeed, he welcomed it and promoted it in some respect for the very sake of securing the Church's external independence. Since Mogila sought to accomplish this within an undivided "universe of culture," the paradox was only further heightened. Under such conditions, Orthodoxy lost its inner independence us well as its measuring rod of self-examination. Without thought or scrutiny, as if by habit, western criteria of evaluation were adopted. At the same time links with the traditions and methods of the East were broken. But was not the cost too high? Could the Orthodox in  Poland truly afford to isolate themselves from Constantinople and Moscow? Was not the scope of vision impractically narrow? Did not the  rupture with the eastern part result in the grafting on of an alien and, artificial tradition which would inevitably block the path of creative development? It would be unfair to place all blame for this on Mogila. The process of "Latinization" began long before he came on the scene. He was less the pioneer of a new path than an articulator of his time. Yet Peter Mogila contributed more than any other, as organizer, educator, liturgical reformer, and inspirer of the Orthodox Confession, to the entrenchment of "crypto-Romanism" in the life of the West Russian Church. From here it was transported to  Moscow in the seventeenth century by Kievan scholars and in the eighteenth century by bishops of western origin and training.

THE ORTHODOX CONFESSION

"The Orthodox Confession is the most significant and expressive document of the Mogila era. Its importance is not limited to the history of the West Russian Church, since it became a confession of faith for the Eastern Church (though only after a struggle, and its authoritative character is still open to question). Who the author or the editor of the Confession really was remains uncertain. It is usually attributed to Peter Mogila or Isaia Kozlovskii.  More than likely it was a collective work, with Mogila and various members of his circle sharing in the composition. The exact purpose of the Confession also remains unclear. Originally conceived as a "catechism," and often called one, it seems to have been intended as a clarification of the Orthodox faith in relation to the Protestants. In fact, it is now widely assumed that Mogila's Confession was prepared as a rejoinder to the Confession of Cyril Lucaris, which appeared in 1633 and whose pro-Calvinist leanings stirred disquiet and confusion in the whole Orthodox world. In 1638 - after certain collusion and pressure from Kome - both Lucaris and his Confession were condemned by a synod in Constantinople.  These events may explain why when Mogila's Confession came out the Greek Church was drawn to it and, after editing by Syrigos, conferred on it the Church's authority."

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/florovsky_ways_chap2.html
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« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2013, 05:51:49 PM »

with all Sainted Patriarchs of Kyiv on October 6th.

Huh
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