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Author Topic: Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)  (Read 29536 times) Average Rating: 0
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Lenexa
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« on: January 21, 2010, 04:17:11 PM »

First I want to apologize if this in the wrong forum. I was not quite sure where this topic would fit in.
Lately I have been very interested in learning more about the Old Believers. I have been interested and read what information I could find over the years but recently my interest has been in learning more about the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy who received their priesthood in 1846 by acceptance of the Greek Metropolitan Ambrose who had recently converted to the Old Believers. Most of what I know comes from wikipedia articles listed below.
Old Believers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/index.html
The Churches of Belokrinitskaya Hierachy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipovan_Orthodox_Old-Rite_Church
And I've read others on wiki related to the hierarchy.
I don't want to debate whether this was or was not "canonically valid" as Metropolitan Ambrose consecrated another Bishop single-handedly.I am simply interested learning more about the history of Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy, their present Church, how they view the Russian "New" Rite Church, discussions/relations with Russian New Rite and World Orthodoxy, and whether they have ever been actively involved in missionary activities and their view on such.
This last issues are important to me for several reasons:
 As I see it the Church is for all people and should be actively engaged in preaching and spreading the faith. I understand that the Old Believers have been heavily persecuted throughout their history and are only now completely free and active in their Russian homeland. However I often get the impression that Old Believers are very much separated from other people and are not interested in evangelism. However I do speak Russian and there is little information available online in English.
My interest is also personal because I am curious about whether it would be possible for an average Orthodox believer to become an Old-Rite Orthodox. I have no intention of ever leaving the Orthodox Church or "World Orthodoxy" but looking at Old Believers of Erie, PA who are in ROCOR it makes me wonder if someday we may see Russian Orthodox Old-Rite missions made up of converts to Orthodoxy or Orthodox who decided to "convert" to the Old-Rite? From what I've read about the liturgical practices of the Old-Rite parish in Erie, PA I would be interested in joining an Old-Rite parish as I like Old Russian tradition and long services without omissions or abbreviations and the inclusion of the homilies. This is not out of pride or vanity and I do realize that even the Old-Rite is the product of liturgical development. It has more to with my taking a personal liking to the Russian Old-Rite and it's practices.
Another question I think about is wouldn't it be great for the Russian Orthodox Church if the Old Believers of Belokrinitskaya reunited with MP?! Perhaps I am just being naive but I wonder if the Old Believers piety would be an example honored and emulated by those Russians coming back to the fullness of their faith in the mainstream MP.
Like I stated earlier I do not read or speak Russian so I am limited in my ability to learn much online but I would appreciate any and all help with regards to the many questions listed.
Thank you for your time and asking for your prayers!
Eucherius Place & Family



Fixed a url tag for you...  -PtA
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:56:40 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Lenexa
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 07:35:43 PM »

I wanted to add the link to the Old-Rite ROCOR Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA
http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
and a few Old Believer photos that struck my interest to look more into the Old Believers.
The First two are of Metropolitan Kornily of The Russian Orthodox Old-Rite and the third is Metropolitan Leonty of the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite.
The Prayerbook is available from the Church of Nativity Bookstore and can be purchased online.
The first icon is of St.Avvakum the famous executed Old Believer who wrote an autobiography.
The last icon is by the Old Believer Iconographer Pimen Sofronov, who painted St.John (Maximovitch) of San Francisco's Sepulchre whose paintings can be seen here:
http://www.macdougallauction.com/catalogue%20June%2007/index.asp?page=13

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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 07:39:14 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 07:41:11 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 07:44:00 PM »

The Lipovans (rusi lipoveni) I've seen in Romania don't seem like they are eager to make any converts; they seemed pretty much content to keep their national customs and faith and didn't seem to have any desire to polemicize with the Romanian Orthodox around.
Actually I know of a few that, having moved far away from their traditional areas, now attend the local Romanian parish.
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Andrew21091
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 08:04:37 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!

Hopeful Faithful is part of the ultra-strict priestless branch called the Pomortsy. I believe he would consider people like Metropolitan Kornily and other Old Believer Bishops and priests to be in heresy and not really Old Believers.
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augustin717
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 09:04:41 PM »

here is a video with the metropolitan Leontie of the Old Believers, residing in Braila, Romania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj714Fape5U&feature=related
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 09:05:57 PM »

You can PM Hopeful Faithful. As far as I know he is an OB convert (I don't know which branch exactly). But he is from the hardcore ones, not from the ones who would like to reunite.

Welcome to the forum!

Hopeful Faithful is part of the ultra-strict priestless branch called the Pomortsy. I believe he would consider people like Metropolitan Kornily and other Old Believer Bishops and priests to be in heresy and not really Old Believers.
The photos on Hopeful Faithful's web site show a priest named Fr. John. (?)
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 06:04:08 PM »

Thanks for fixing the url on the wiki article for the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church.
Thanks to Augustin for the youtube video.
I really am limited in my ability to find out much because I can't read or speak Russian, Church Slavonic, or Romanian. I would think that they would at least have some interest in spreading the Christian faith especially since, as far as I know, they don't generally regard other Orthodox as being fully Christian. Does anyone know if I am wrong about this? These are the kind of things I wish I could ask someone who belongs to this group of Old Believers.
Does anyone know if ROCOR has had any relations with them? Does anyone know if the MP has approached them or had any discussions with them? or maybe the Romanian Orthodox Church with the Lipovans?
The Old Rite ROCOR parish in Erie, PA is 1/3 people who converted from non-Orthodoxy according to their website so that shows that there are people out their drawn to the Old Rite with its stricter guidelines and longer services.
The photos I posted that don't show up can be seen on this blog for the Old Rite monks in North Dakota who are, or were, not sure, within the Belokrinitskaya Hierachy.
http://oldbeliever.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 06:51:35 PM »

The photos on Hopeful Faithful's web site show a priest named Fr. John. (?)

Well, in his faith indication under jurisdiction, it says Strict Pomorsky (Stranniki). The Stranniki (meaning wanderers or runaways) are a group of Pomorsky Old Believers who are priestless.

Look at his custom title: "How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?"

Read all about them on John's (Hopeful Faithful) blog: http://stranniki.blogspot.com/. The top of the page has a short description of the Stranniki Pomorsky group.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 06:54:55 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
Lenexa
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2010, 11:04:14 PM »


St.Ambrose of Bila Krynytskya
(b.1791-d. October 30/November 11, 1863 Feastday Oct.30/Nov.11)
In doing research on the Old Believers and particularly the Belokrinitskaya I gleaned a lot from a google translation of this Russian wiki article:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BC%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9_(%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82_%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9)
This amazing bishop was glorified in 1996 and his relics taken to Brail, Romania at the headquarters of the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church in 2000.
Thank God for the internet! I'm still amazed at how much you can find if you just look.
I'm also glad that I've done this research. I think that studying the Old Believers, the Raskol, their history, current situation and the gradual lifting of anathemas and even apologies of the MP towards the Old Believers for their cruel treatment, brutal persecution and the injustice of anathematizing the Old-Rite has shown me just how complex issues even of anathemas, schism and violent open conflict really are even over several hundred years!
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 01:56:27 PM »

This following selection from Vladimir Moss book New Zion in Babylon The Orthodox Church in the Twentieth Century gives an interesting look into the history of the Old Believers in the early Twentieth Century. It gives what I see as damning testimony against the Novozybkov Hierarchy who are now called the Russian Old-Orthodox Church not to be confused with the Belokrinitskaya who are called the Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church. It is interesting that Archbishop Andrew later joined the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while also remaining an Archbishop within the mainstream Russian Orthodox Church. In doing this research I am curious about what the Belokrinitskaya ecclesiology is? It seems very similar to that of the Old Calendarist Synod in Resistance under Met.Cyprian (Cyprianites) in that the mainstream Church is regarded as having ecclesial grace; world Orthodoxy is still regarded as being the Church.

Archbishop Andrew and the Old Ritualists
As we have seen, Archbishop Andrew was a thorn in the side both of
Metropolitan Peter and of Metropolitan Sergius. In 1922 he had made his Ufa
diocese autonomous on the basis of the Patriarch’s ukaz № 362, and by the
end of his life he had consecrated as many as 40 secret bishops, whose
successors, it is claimed, have survived to the present day. Of hardly less
importance were his controversial relations with the Old Ritualists, which, if
successful, would have ended the 250-year-old schism in the Russian Church.
Just after the February revolution, Archbishop Andrew presided over the
All-Russian Congress of Yedinovertsy (that is, converts to Orthodoxy from
the Old Ritualists who were allowed to retain the Old Rite) in Nizhni-
Novgorod. In May, 1917, together with the future hieromartyr-bishop Joseph
(Petrovykh) and the yedinoverets Protopriest (later bishop and hieromartyr)
Simon (Sheev), he visited the Rogozhskoe cemetery in Moscow, the spiritual
centre of the Belokrinitsky Old Ritualist hierarchy, and handed over a letter
from the Congress expressing a desire for union. However, the reply of the
Old Ritualist bishops was negative.
But Vladyka’s sympathy for the Old Ritualists went further than these
early actions would suggest, and further than the opinion, which was
generally accepted in his time, that the anathemas on the Old Rite were unjust
and should be removed. Influenced by one of his teachers at the Academy,
Professor N. Kapterev, he adopted a still more “liberal” attitude towards the
Old Ritualists that has been a subject of controversy to this day. While
continuing to recognize the pre-revolutionary Church, he considered that it
had fallen into caesaropapism, or the “Niconian heresy” as he called it, and
that it was “Niconianism” that had led to the Russian revolution and to the
renovationist and sergianist submission of the Church to Soviet power. He
often referred to the Orthodox as “Niconians”, while calling the Old Ritualists
“Ancient Orthodox”, whose schism was not a schism, but precisely a protest
against this unlawful encroachment on the freedom of the Church. Therefore
Vladyka Andrew's attempted rapprochement with the Old Ritualists must be
seen in the context of the main struggle of the times - the struggle of the
Church against Soviet power and renovationist and sergianist caesaropapism.
Let us turn to Archbishop Andrew’s own account of his dealings with the
Old Believers:- “In September, 1917 the so-called beglopopovtsi [i.e. those Old
Ritualists who accepted runaway priests from the official Russian Church, but
had no hierarchy of their own] approached me with the request that I become
190 Andreev, Is the Grace of God Present in the Soviet Church?, Wildwood, Alberta: Monastery
Press, 2000, p. 54.
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their bishop. At this time I was in Moscow at the 1917 Council. I agreed in
principle, but on condition that my flock in Ufa should remain in my
jurisdiction. It was Lev Alexeevich Molekhonov who was conducting
negotiations with me on the side of the beglopopovtsi. He assembled in
Moscow a small convention of representatives of other communities of theirs.
At this convention, after long discussions, they agreed that my union with
this group of Old Ritualists should take place in the following manner: I
would come without vestments to the church of the beglopopovtsi in Moscow
(on M. Andronievskaia street). They would meet me with the question: ‘Who
are you?’ I would reply at first that I was a bishop of the Orthodox, One,
Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and them I would read the Symbol of
Faith and a lengthy confession of faith, which everyone ordained to the
episcopate would read. Then I, at the request of the beglopopovtsi, would
anoint myself with the same chrism which they in 1917 called and considered
to be patriarchal, which remained [to them] from Patriarch Joseph [(1642-
1652), the last Moscow Patriarch recognized by both the Orthodox and the
Old Ritualists]. With this my ‘rite of reception’ would come to an end.
“My spiritual father, Archbishop Anthony of Kharkov, knew about all
these negotiations, and Patriarch Tikhon was informed about everything.
They approved my intentions.
“Thus from both sides everything was measured, calculated, thought out
and humanly speaking worked out in a manner completely acceptable for all.
After this I went to Ufa.
“But then the events of 1918 and 1919 took place. The beglopopovtsi lost
me for a long time. I was in Siberia and then in a difficult incarceration… But
in 1925, when I was in exile in Askhabad [in 1923 Archbishop Andrew had
again been arrested and sentenced to three years exile in Central Asia, first in
Ashkhabad, and then in Tashkent], the beglopopovets Archimandrite
Clement came to me and began to ask me again that I should become bishop
for the beglopopovtsi…
“I agreed to do everything that I had promised to L.A. Molekhonov…
Moreover, I agreed to become bishop for the beglopopovtsi only on condition
that Archimandrite Clement should himself receive consecration to the
episcopate and would become de facto an active bishop, for I myself was
chained to Askhabad or some other place for a long time.
“Clement accepted all my conditions and on August 28, 1925 we for the
first time prayed together with him to God in a truly Orthodox, that is, not
caesaropapist church [!]; I on my side had fulfilled everything that I had been
blessed to do by Patriarch Tikhon. On September 3, 1925 I (together with
Bishop Rufinus) consecrated Clement to the episcopate, giving him the
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authority to be my deputy, as it were, as long as I did not enjoy freedom of
movement…
“After this we parted on the same day of September 3.
“But soon I received news from Bishop Clement that the beglopopovtsi
recognised neither me nor him as their bishops and that he, Clement, had
been received in his existing rank into the number of the bishops of the
Belokrinitsky hierarchy.”
The renovationist Vestnik Sviashchennago Sinoda (Herald of the Holy Synod)
reported: "According to the report of Archimandrite Clement, Bishop Andrew
did not agree to the second rite (i.e. chrismation) for a long time, and agreed
only after sustained discussions with, or demands from Clement, based on
the 95th canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (which orders that heretics
should be united to Orthodoxy only through chrismation).
"Archbishop Andrew said the following to Clement before the chrismation:
'It is not your hand that is being lain upon me, but the hand of that patriarch
who consecrated your ancient chrism: when you read the proclamation, and
when I recite the heresies and confession of faith before chrismation, then I
immediately become your bishop and can commune with you. But since I am
your bishop, that means that a priest cannot anoint a bishop.'
"After this, Archbishop Andrew anointed himself with the Old Ritualist
chrism [more exactly: the chrism consecrated by the Orthodox Patriarch
Joseph] and read out the following confession of faith: 'I, Bishop Andrew, of
the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, who was consecrated to the
rank of bishop on October 4, 1907 in front of the holy relics of the Kazan
hierarchs Gurias and Barsanuphius and on the day of their commemoration,
and who am now suffering persecution from the ruling hierarchy for the
freedom of the Church of Christ, confess before the Holy Church that
Patriarch Nicon in his wisdom disrupted the life and love of the Catholic
Church, thereby laying the beginnings of the schism in the Russian Church.
On the basis of Patriarch Nicon's mistake was established that caesaropapism
which has, since the time of Patriarch Nicon, undermined all the roots of
Russian Church life and was finally expressed in the formation of the socalled
'Living Church', which is at present the ruling hierarchy and which has
transgressed all the church canons... But I, although I am a sinful and
unworthy bishop, by the mercy of God ascribe myself to no ruling hierarchy
and have always remembered the command of the holy Apostle Peter:
'Pasture the flock of God without lording it over God's inheritance'."
Hearing about the events in Askhabad, Metropolitan Peter, the patriarchal
locum tenens, banned Archbishop Andrew from serving, although a later
search in the Synodal offices revealed no such decree, as witnessed by a
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Spravka by the Chancellor of the Patriarchal Synod, Archbishop Pitirim of
Dmitrov on October 27, 1927 (№ 1799).
However, Archbishop Andrew was not inclined to obey such a decree,
whether genuine or not; for he considered Metropolitan Peter to be “an
autocrat in clerical guise” who had ascended the ecclesiastical ladder by
means of an intrigue, and the whole system of the succession of power in the
Church by means of secret wills to be uncanonical. Thus he continued to
“ascribe myself to no ruling hierarchy”, and to rule the Ufa diocese on an
autonomous basis until the convening of a Council of the whole Russian
Church, consecrating no less than 40 bishops for the Catacomb Church –
about 30 already by the beginning of 1927.
As regards the supposed ban on Archbishop Andrew by Metropolitan
Peter, we must conclude either, if we are to believe Metropolitan Sergius, that
"it may have been lost on the road", or, much more likely, that it never
existed.
Unfortunately, this supposed ban by Metropolitan Peter caused him to be
distrusted for a time by Archbishop Andrew. Fortunately, however, this
distrust did not last, as we shall see…
Archbishop Andrew returned from exile to Ufa in 1926, and the people
visited their Vladyka in unending streams. However, the Ufa clergy led by
the newly appointed Bishop John met him with hostility and coldness.
One of his parishioners wrote in her diary: "The people search him out and
revere him, and all the parishioners of various churches invite him to them,
while the clergy does not accept him. There are many rumours, and no one
knows what to believe... Bishop Andrew took up his residence in the workers'
quarter on Samara street not far from the Simeonov church. He served in the
Simeonov church, and in such a way, according to another eyewitness, that
"we ascended to heaven and did not want to come down."
In July, 1926, Metropolitan Peter’s deputy, Metropolitan Sergius, renewed
the attack on Archbishop Andrew, and banned him from serving. However,
even if we assume that the charges against him were justified, this ban was
invalid, since it transgressed several canons according to which a bishop must
be first be summoned to trial by bishops, and if he does not obey, he must be
summoned again through two bishops who are sent to bring him, and then a
third time through two bishops, and only when he does not appear the third
time will the Council pronounce its decisions about him. In the case of
Archbishop Andrew, he was not only not invited to a trial, but the sentence
against him was passed, not by a Council, but by a single bishop like himself.
85
For similar reasons, his bans on Catacomb bishops in later years were also
invalid.
Archbishop Andrew wrote: “This Sergius, knowing that I was in Ufa,
wrote to my flock a letter, filled with slander against me, as if I had fallen
away from Orthodoxy, as if I by the second rite had united myself to the
beglopopovtsi, etc. I had no difficulty in proving that this was a lie and that
the deputy of the locum tenens was simply a liar!…
“And so Metropolitan Sergius slandered me, travelling along this welltrodden
path of slander and lies. But in Ufa amidst the ‘Niconians’ there were
some thinking people and they did not believe Sergius’ slander, as they did
not believe Peter’s. Moreover, two things took place which served to help me
personally and help the Church in general.
“At that time I had two vicar-bishops with me – Anthony [Milovidov, of
Ust-Katavsky] and Pitirim [of Nizhegorod, later Schema-Bishop Peter
(Ladygin)]. Both of them wanted to check out everything that related to me in
the matter of the reunion with Old Ritualism. Anthony set off to check things
out in Moscow, obtained the trust of people in the chancellery of the
Patriarchal Synod and personally got into the Synodal archive, so as to study
the documents relating to me.
“You can imagine his surprise when in the spring of 1927 he became
convinced that there were absolutely no documents about me in the Synodal
archives, neither about my ‘departure into schism’, nor about my ‘ban’, etc.
He asked in the Synod what this meant, and received the exceptionally
characteristic reply: ‘Metropolitan Peter was probably only wanting to
frighten Bishop Andrew’!…
“Bishop Pitirim, a 70-year-old monk who used to be on Old Athos, a clever
man, although unlettered, went not to the sergianist Synod, which he did not
recognize, but to Yaroslavl to Metropolitan Agathangelus, so as to tell him
everything concerning Church life in Ufa in detail and to hear his opinion.
Metropolitan Agathangel heard Bishop Pitirim out very attentively for several
hours (two days) and told my vicar-bishop Pitirim (whom I had consecrated
to the episcopate during my first exile in Tedzhent in June, 1925), that he
should not be upset, that my ecclesiastical behaviour was irreproachable and
that only in the interests of ecclesiastical peace he, Metropolitan Agathangel,
advised me not to carry out any hierarchical consecrations but in the interests
of the enlightenment of the flock in Ufa and other faithful sons of the Church,
he, Metropolitan Agathangel, advised me to present my whole ‘case’ before
the judgement of the nearest – at least three – bishops.
“’But this is only my advice, and it will be clearer how to act on the spot,”
said Metropolitan Agathangel to Bishop Pitirim.
86
“Bishop Pitirim, on returning to Ufa, told me about all this, and Bishop
Habbakuk of Old Ufa decided immediately to carry out the advice of
Metropolitan Agathangel and on February 3, 1927 he invited Bishop Pitirim
and Anthony to a convention in Ufa, while he asked me for all the materials
that would explain my ecclesiastical behaviour.
“On February 3, 1927 these three bishops issued under their signatures an
‘Act with regard to the Affair of Archbishop Andrew’, in which they laid out
the circumstances of the affair and came to the conclusion that I had not
‘departed’ anywhere, and that Metropolitan Sergius’ slander was in essence a
light-minded and shameful intrusion into a holy affair.”
From October 3-6, 1927 a diocesan Congress took place in Ufa at which the
“Act” was approved, Archbishop Andrew vindicated “as their true Ufa
archpastor" and Metropolitan Sergius accused of lying. Vladyka Andrew's
own view of his episcopal authority is contained in his reply to the Address of
the clergy-lay assembly of March 26, 1926: "I remain a bishop for those who
recognize me as their bishop, who fed me for the six years I was in prison,
and who need me. I don't impose my episcopate on anyone."
However, Archbishop Andrew’s relations with the Old Ritualists did not
end there. When Vladyka was released from prison in 1931, he began to visit
the Rogozhskoe cemetery again, reasoning “that I am for them not a stranger,
but their own, and I am for them not a hostile and harmful ‘Niconian’, but a
true bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”. It seems that
he then entered into communion with Archbishop Meletius (Kartushin) of
Moscow, the first-hierarch of the Belokrinitsky hierarchy, and together with
him consecrated a secret bishop, Basil Guslinsky.
Then he was again exiled. During this period, on April 1, 1932, priests of
the Belokrinitsky hierarchy sent him the Holy Gifts and an omophorion.
Archbishop Andrew now considered himself to be in full communion with
Archbishop Meletius “in the holy ecclesiastical dogmas, and in prayer, and in
ecclesiastical discipline (that is, in the holy rites)”. At the same time, he
rejected the idea that he had “transferred” to the Belokrinitsky hierarchy, and
insisted on remaining Bishop of Ufa, retaining “full freedom of Church action,
arousing the suspicions of nobody”. Archbishop Meletius appears to have
accepted this condition.
It is difficult to resist the conclusion that the Old Ritualists used the good
intentions of the Orthodox bishop and future hieromartyr to deceive him. He
considered that, as a result of his actions, “the schism, as a schism, has
ideologically speaking come to an end”. But he was tricked by the
beglopopovtsi, who rejected both him and the bishop he had consecrated for
them, Clement. There was not then, and has not been since then, any union
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between the Orthodox Church and the Old Ritualists of the Belokrinitsky
hierarchy. Nor can there be without the repentance of the latter, because,
apart from the fact that the Belokrinitsky hierarchy has no apostolic
succession, it, as the “Andrewites” themselves admit, followed the sergianists
in becoming a tool of Soviet propaganda. 191
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 11:30:44 AM »

In learning more about the Belokrinitskaya and the Old Believers in general I came across this site in English:
http://oldbelievernews.livejournal.com/ . Originally the blog owner had a blog called stnilsorsky blogspot but shut it down recently. His live journal seems to contain info on all Old Believers (Pomortsy, Belokrinitsky, Novozbykov) and has some interesting articles on relations between the MP and the Belokrinitsky as well as what I read to be more strong evidence against the Novozbykov and especially its new status as a parallel Patriarchate under Patriarch Alexander. http://oldbelievernews.livejournal.com/7319.html
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »

Though this link does not apply solely to the Belokrinitsky but to all Old Believers and specifically delves into the reasons and possible factors & reasons for the Raskol (Old Believer Schism) I thought it would be good to post. Should I ever start a topic on the Old Believers in general or just the Raskol I will post it again. For anyone interested in understanding the history of our Faith and of Russian Orthodoxy specifically should give the second Chapter, Old Believers Modernization as Apocalypse, a read!
 http://books.google.com/books?id=ZhwyG9_appMC&dq=Russia+on+the+eve+of+modernity:+popular+religion+and+traditional+culture&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 03:51:59 PM »

There are people in my own Rocor Parish that visit the Old Believers Church in Erie regularly. I am sure it is possible to join them if you are so motivated..

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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 08:17:25 AM »

If I live about a 16 hour drive away from Erie, PA but if I lived within reasonable driving distance I probably would join the parish. However it is not solely out of my admiration for the Russian Old Rite but because the services are in their entirety and include homilies. I grew up in a pretty non-practicing Christian home (we seldom attended Mass). When I became Orthodox I found that I loved to be in Church and went to all the services I could! I understand that there are reasons for making the services shorter though. Who knows? maybe someday I'll try to start an Old Rite Mission? However it would probably seem strange to a lot of people that I would be interested in starting a Russian Old Rite Mission when I'm not Russian and do not come from an Old Rite parish.
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 06:12:05 PM »

I am currently reading a book for a university course, and it reminded me of this thread.  I thought that Lenexa might find it particularly useful.  The first half of the book gives an excellent and approachable survey of the issues surrounding the reforms, with a lot of primary documents translated into English.  The second half of the book is inaccessible unless you know Church Slavonic, which your earlier posts have indicated that you do not.  But I think that you will find the book very useful in your inquiries, as the author is very sympathetic to the Old Believers in the dispute and seems to be arguing in their favor on most fronts.

Russia, Ritual, and Reform: The Liturgical Reforms of Nikon in the 17th Century by Paul Meyendorff.

It was published in the early nineties by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press. It's currently out of print, but the original list price was still a bit steep ($30.00), so even now you can still get a good deal on it.  I hope this is helpful, as I'm finding the book fascinating.

If you click on the cover on Amazon.com, you can get a preview of the contents by scrolling through the pages.
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »

Thank you for the suggestion and I do hope to acquire the book soon. I have read the few chapters available online and found it very informative and interesting. I am trying to learn Church Slavonic but with my hectic schedule progress is very slow.
I recently acquired the Old Orthodox Prayerbook from the ROCOR Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA.
http://marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/storefrontprofiles/processfeed.aspx?sfid=78319&i=242420238&mpid=2031&dfid=1
It is a dual Church Slavonic/English prayerbook which is excellent! I can't tell how useful I have found it and happy just to look at the font and page decoration. I carry with me at work and have found it handy to read the psalms for the various hours. It also contains instruction selections from the Psalter printed during the time of Patriarch Joseph. Also in editing and compiling this Old Orthodox prayerbook several Old Believer sources were consulted including from Belokrinitsky.
I also wanted to provide this link to an article about and photos of an Russian Old-Rite ordination in Oregon for the Belokrinitskaya Old Believers there.
http://synaxis.info/old-rite/Ascension_Church/parish/news_e.html
Asking your prayers!
I pray for you all for this Great Holy Week and a Glorious Pascha!
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2010, 11:04:13 PM »

Here's another book for that course I am taking that seems to be quite good, but again it is out of print so a bit pricey. It's very thorough, but from a secular press, so you're often getting an outsider's perspective on most issues:

Old Believers and the World of Antichrist: Vyg Community and the Russian State, 1694-1855 by Robert O. Crummey.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 01:33:53 AM »








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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 10:28:10 AM »

Христос Воскресе!

Thank you for the pics and book recommendation.
The Vyg Community interests me greatly and I have unfortunately not found much available in English. I really wish that the Pomorsky Answers http://mymartyrdom.com/pomor.htm had been translated into English. I would like to understand the Pomortsy better and what their reasoning and justifications for belonging to a Church that has no Hierarchy and hence no Mysteries save, this is debatable, Baptism, Marriage and Confession. I was appalled that it was amongst the Pomortsy that defamation of St.Seraphim of Sarov was spread stating that he died due to a fire started from his love of smoking tobacco from a pipe. Yet I can't help but find myself amazed at the level of committment the Pomorian communion requires from individual believers who in spite of the modern world have managed to maintain their faith, their way of life.

When I began studying the Belokrinitskaya I assumed that they were somehow much different from the Priestless Old Believers such as the Pomortsy who still view the Modern Russian Patriarchate as being of the Antichrist. I assumed that their separation from the MP was little more than an organizational separation that will soon be remedied. I was very much mistaken. While they have seemed to grow closer toward the MP and other Orthodox such as the Jerusalem Patriarchate their are still many hardliners who consider the MP clergy and all other Orthodox as heretics who are not to be prayed with. I had this idea that the Belokrinitskaya would be like the Greek Old Calendarists under Metropolitan Cyprian, "Cyprianites," who maintain that world Orthodoxy is still the Church and hence has Ecclesial Grace of the Mysteries. While they do respect the apostolic succession they do not seem, from what I have read, to have as definite an ecclesiology addressing the contradiction of accepting a mainline Greek Bishop to re-establish their hierarchy while maintaining and teaching that the world Orthodox have fallen into heresy and hence are not truly Orthodox, not truly Christians. I have great admiration and interest in the Old Believers but I pray that they all do what most of the Old Orthodox folks in Erie, PA did and come back to the fullness of the Church. It would be a great blessing to the Church. I haved experienced first hand the blessings that come with practicing the Russian Old Rite in my private life.

Here is a Church Tour of the Belokrinitskaya Church in Gervais, OR
http://synaxis.info/old-rite/Ascension_Church/parish/church_tour.html
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 06:35:20 PM »

Just wanted to post a link for the recording, "Of Thy Mystical Supper:The Russian Old Rite Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Znamenny Chant," that is now available from the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church in Gervais, Oregon.
You can here a few audio clips here:
http://www.synaxis.info/psalom/pages/CD/new_cd.html
You can buy it online here:
http://orthodoxincense.com/bookstore_080208_1.html
Really beautiful Znamenny Chant in Church Slavonic!
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 01:15:18 PM »

Recently I came across this icon and article about St.Amvrosii Belo-Krinitsa.
http://members.tripod.com/old_rite_orthodox/id22.html
While I am not an Old Believer I cannot help even venerating this man for what he for the Russian Old Rite and those devoted to it's Orthodoxy; to the very Orthodox old Russian culture which flows from it and was finally recognized as having always been so in 1974 by the ROCOR and MP. It saddens me to think that the course Tsar Paul I began was not wholly adopted and speedily but into action in the Russian Orthodox Church which would have avoided this sad schism of the Old Orthodox.
Lord forgive me and have mercy on me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 06:02:59 PM »

Curious and confused ,,,Under Your Avitar It Say's Serbian New Gracanica,Your not happy there... Huh Huh
We Serbs Use Staro Crkveno Slovenski In Holy Liturgy ....
If there was a Old Rite Any where near me i would check it out ,
But wouldn't want to join  it though...... Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 06:28:44 PM »

How can the Old Believers be older in belief, than the mother church In Constantinople where there faith came from originally ......
I can understand at the beginning of the Christianization Russian/Ukrainian peoples some things may of got distorted Or interpreted, wrongly, but still it doesn't make the old believer more traditional or older...than there mother church..... Huh Huh

Conn..Also i can understand after the completion of the christianization of the russian/ukrainian peoples, constantinople was to do reforms to its liturgies, then it could be said they have the original version that there mother had before the reforms,it just makes them traditional but not older....Anyone explain.... Grin Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 06:53:06 PM »

Please forgive me for my last post. After looking over it I see that my language was a bit garbled.
Curious and confused ,,,Under Your Avitar It Say's Serbian New Gracanica,You not happy there... Huh Huh
We Serbs Use Staro Crkveno Slovenski In Holy Liturgy ....
If there was a Old Rite Any where near me i would check it out ,
But wouldn't want to join  it though...... Grin

I am currently going to a Serbian Church under Bishop Longin of the New Gracanica diocese. In the Serbian church I attend, St.George in Lenexa, KS, the Liturgy is primarily in Serbian but with English and Staro Crkveno Slovenski (Old Church Slavonic) mixed in. It's about 60-70% Serbian, 20-30% English and usually 10% Church Slavonic but really short portions in Church Slavonic are basically the same in Serbian. It is my understanding that most Serbian Churches in the US use the Serbian language or English language.
I am happy at St.George in Lenexa. I am not of Serbian heritage but I feel strongly that the Julian Calendar should be followed whenever possible, that is as a layman. However since I moved here to Kansas a few years ago and started attending a Serbian Church I have grown very fond of Serbian Orthodox culture. It is similar to other Slavic Orthodox but in several ways is distinct.
However, I having been studying the Russian Old Rite and its history and feel strongly that the Russian Old Rite is to my preference as I would like for the Church Services to be performed in full with no omissions and with the liturgical homilies. At home I use an Old Rite prayerbook and make the Sign of the Cross with two fingers and follow the rules for when to bow and make prostrations.
Don’t get me wrong, I am Orthodox and I don’t intend to become a member of the Old Believer churches separated from the MP and all other Patriarchates. It is not about the Church Slavonic language primarily though I do think it would be better to continue using Church Slavonic in Church Services instead of switching entirely to English. For example the Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA (ROCOR) several years ago switched to having their Church Services entirely in English but are still using the Russian Old Rite for their Church Services. They simply translated all the Old Rite texts into English. A good way to see a side by side translation is the Old Orthodox Prayerbook published by the Old Orthodox Church of the Nativity Bookstore which is in both Church Slavonic and English.
After studying the history of the Old Rite and the Raskol over the Nikonian Reforms I’ve come to see that there was, as the MP and ROCOR have admitted, no good reason for the anathematizing of the Russian Old Rite and the forcing of all the churches and monasteries to implement the Nikonian Reforms. This is because the justification for the Reforms was that they believed the Russian Old Rite to be wrong and defective from the accretion of errors over the years of copying books. This has not only proven to be false and that the Russian Old Rite is actually based off a different recension of the Greek Rite which is why it is different but study has shown that there never was any great investigation by the supporters of the Nikonian Reforms of the many old books and manuscripts brought to Moscow to be used to implement these reforms of the Russian Old Rite.
I could go on but the point is that the Raskol was the result of a great injustice and implemented so forcefully and maliciously that it cannot have been according to the will of God. It is a blessing from God that the Russian Old Rite is now recognized again by the Russian Orthodox Church and all Orthodox Churches and that communion is being restored with Old Believers.

















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« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2010, 07:13:40 PM »

How can the Old Believers be older in belief, than the mother church In Constantinople where there faith came from originally ......
I can understand at the beginning of the Christianization Russian/Ukrainian peoples some things may of got distorted Or interpreted, wrongly, but still it doesn't make the old believer more traditional or older...than there mother church..... Huh Huh

Conn..Also i can understand after the completion of the christianization of the russian/ukrainian peoples, constantinople was to do reforms to its liturgies, then it could be said they have the original version that there mother had before the reforms,it just makes them traditional but not older....Anyone explain.... Grin Grin

This is just a name given to those who opposed the Nikonian Reforms and chose to continue using the Russian Old Rite. Since they continued using the Old Rite they came to be called Old Believers or Believers in the Russian Old Rite.
It has nothing to with any claim to having a heritage that is older than Constantinople. But the Russian Old Rite is much older than reformed Greek Rite of Constantinople.
Also St.Andrew the First-Called Apostle did visit Russia.
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« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2010, 07:18:46 PM »

This other greek rite you mentioned would also  of been in serbia ,bulgaria ,macadionia ,ever in romania ,,we share almost the same lenght of being christinized serbia,romainia,bulgaria,macidonia,, i think its 1.200 yrs..
For russia and ukrainia and others around that area i think its 1000 yrs...Since the Balkan States have 200yrs ahead of russ/ukrainia..we would of had this different rite but we don't ,it's the byzatine rite we have and thats two hundred years before russia and ukrainia... Grin Huh
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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2010, 07:30:03 PM »

I wonder if the rites of the Balkan churches were brought into line with those of the Greek churches at the same time as the Nikonian reforms.
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2010, 07:34:03 PM »

Since we are older than russ/ukrainia ,you can't go wrong stick with the srbs.... Grin
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 07:52:08 PM »

I wonder if the rites of the Balkan churches were brought into line with those of the Greek churches at the same time as the Nikonian reforms.

The best person to ask is Fr.Deacon Serb...He Can tell you if there were reforms done amongst the Balkan Orthodox...Father Knows Best.... Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 07:16:03 PM »

All of the other Orthodox fell under Latin and Greek influence and were influenced by the historical developments, innovations, and additions implemented by Constantinople especially during the time of the Balkans being under the Ottomans and the Ukraine was under the Lithuanians and Poles. However, as I said before, the Serbs have preserved much within their culture that is distinct, such as celebrating Vaskrs (Pascha) Liturgy in the morning, after sunrise, rather than at Midnight. But the Serbs did not receive the same recension of the Greek Rite as the Russians in the first place.
We aren't talking about whose the "Most Orthodox" we are talking about fidelity to the Rites received and the Russians didn't receive the exact same Rite as the Balkans. Christianization came long before the formal adoption and standardization of Typikons/Rites and practices/customs.
Also keep in mind the reforms that I am talking about have a lot to do with omitting parts of the Liturgy and all Liturgical services particularly by omitting the bows, prostrations, Psalms of the Divine Liturgy, the Kathismas appointed for Matins and Vespers, and the Liturgical Homilies. The only Church Service I know of that was substantially changed in form and text is the Service of Proskomedia which is done very differently in the Russian Old Rite from the Greek Rite.
The pictures on this webpage will show you what I mean.
http://community.livejournal.com/old_believer/34662.html
Yes the differences are actually quite minor when those following the Greek Reformed Rites, such as at monasteries, do not make any omissions but remember we are not just talking about Liturgy we are talking the Old Rite and it's followers, the Old Believers, opposition to the influence of baroque and generally westernized iconography, westernized chanting, Latin views about Theology, modernist influence on society/community, and the drive to turn away from the Holy Venerable Tradition of Holy Rus, the Old Rite, and from Orthodoxy itself even.

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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 07:42:14 PM »

There is or was a group in the Balkan called Bogomilci hope it's spelled correctly ...I'm not sure if they were home grown or escaped persecution from Russia and Ukrainian...They were or still in Bulgaria ,Roumania Serbia Macedonia..If your familiar with this sect and can shed some light on it... Grin
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2010, 06:37:58 PM »

I'm really not sure who you are referring to here?
I think that you are referring to the Bogomils about whom I am not very familiar but here is a link to a wiki article about them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism
I can definitely tell you that they have nothing to do with the Old Believers. The Old Believers were not at mixed with native superstitions or occult practices and magic that existed amongst various peasants in Russia and lasted even until our times. They were dedicated Christians who fought against people go to local peasant sorcerers for help.
There is another group that emerged in Serbia which is Serbian homegrown call the Bogomoljci which sprung up in the early twentieth century in Serbia and was an Orthodox Union of Christian Brotherhoods which really revived ancient Christianity as a way of life. It was mostly young people who followed Christ embracing poverty, helping people, preaching the word of God, singing spiritual songs, and frequently attending the Divine Services, especially the Liturgy, at Church. Bishop Nikolai Velimirovic became their bishop for a time. Blessed Euphemia, the great pious Abbess who revived Serbian Womens monasticism and who reposed at Ravanitsa Monastery July 21/August 3 6966/1958 had been a member of this movement in her youth. Her hagiography is one of my favorite books!
See I am happy with Serbian Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 04:36:52 AM »

Lenexa,

Just noticed this thread. You might find some of these to be interesting reading:

Popovtsy Churches: Part 1 of 5

Bespopovtsy Communities: Part 2 of 5

Sekstanstvo (Sectarian) Bodies - Dukhovnye Khristiane: Part 3 of 5

Sekstanstvo (Sectarian) Bodies - The Eretiki (Heretics): Part 4 of 5

Unrelated Movements Contemporaneous with those of Old Ritualists: Part 5 of 5

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2010, 05:58:50 PM »

Thanks Irish Melkite.
Those are interesting links. I still have trouble understanding how some Old Believers accepted the Papacy but it has been difficult for me to learn much at all without knowing Russian or Church Slavonic. It has been slow but I am slowly learning more and more even learning Old Church Slavonic bit by bit.
Recently I found this translation of St.Avvakum's autobiography and bought it. http://www.amazon.com/Archpriest-Avvakum-written-Michigan-Translations/dp/0930042336/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277329951&sr=8-1
Of course I can't judge how good the translation is but I have already read most of this most famous of Russian Autobiographies and found that he had already given advice in it to Old Believers on how to survive without bishops and even priests should the situation arise even explaining how to receive Communion from the reserved Host carried with oneself.  The book also includes some good explanatory articles about St.Avvakum and the Raskol.
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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2010, 02:42:04 PM »


Archbishop Mark of Berlin (ROCOR) talking with Metropolitan Andrian (Russian Orthodox Old Rite AKA Belokrinitsky)
I wish I could know what they discussed. Unfortunately Metropolitan Andrian died shortly after becoming Metropolitan being succeeded by the current Metropolitan Kornily. Though it has been quite a while since I posted on this topic I thought I would post this link. It is in Russian but with the Google translator you can get an average translation which will help to understand the ecclesiology of the Belokrinitsky.
http://tuinov.narod.ru/iepapxia.html#5
Though I have to say that unless you can read and speak Russian I don't think that you can come to any real conclusive understanding of their ecclesiology as precision in wording is necessary to correctly understand such a complex ecclesiology.
At the same website you can find a biography of Metropolitan Alimpie below:
http://tuinov.narod.ru/alimpi_gusev.html
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2010, 01:56:56 AM »

I want to revive this, I've also recently become interested in the Old-Rite, and their points seem very convincing, I wonder what the typical Orthodox response to them is, I haven't been able to find anything.
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Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2010, 02:12:04 AM »

Response to what? To history?
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2010, 02:15:51 AM »

Response to the Old-Rite's arguments of Greek reform under the Ottomans, and the old sign of the cross often depicted in old Byzantine mosaics and icons, among other things.
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Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2010, 05:33:00 PM »

Response to the Old-Rite's arguments of Greek reform under the Ottomans, and the old sign of the cross often depicted in old Byzantine mosaics and icons, among other things.
Well there are many responses to the Old Believers but few have ever been translated into English but neither have the Pomorsky Answers arguing that the MP has apostasized with the rest of world Orthodoxy to Antichrist and that God has chosen to take the Priesthood away from the Church leaving only the general priesthood of all believers. St.Dimitry of Rostov wrote against them using his knowledge of Greek to argue against their adamently sticking to the pre-nikonian form of the Name of our Lord "ICYC" instead of the post-nikonian IHCYC. I am still thinking about this issue of the Name of our Lord and whether it is better in English and Romance languages to use the Name as Isus (ee-sous) instead of Iisus, Iesus (ee-yay-sous) or Jesus.
However I have to say that the Old Rite primarily argues that the fall of Greek Orthodoxy came about earlier in the time of their capitulation to the Latins in the Union of Florence-Ferrara in 1433. Before the Nikonian Reforms the Ukrainians had adopted the curriculum of the Latins particularly Scholasticism most notably in Kiev. With Nikon came the changing of liturgical practices mandated by the Stoglav Council. He even changed the very way devout Russians signed the cross upon themselves and the very spelling of the Name of Our Lord. He seemed to be adulterating and changing the faith to destroy it from within. The destruction of Orthodoxy in Russia meant that Orthodoxy would cease to exist anywhere in the minds of Russians who considered the Greeks Faith to be impure. They saw the Nikonian Reforms as the work of Antichrist! The little changes were all it took to create a false faith and remove Christ, the Mysteries, from the laity! Scary isn't it! Devotion to Christ and Apocalyptic fear is what motivated the Old Believers. Nikon was even removed eventually but the reforms he began were continued and then forced on the Russian people by foreign bishops and Tsar Alexei. They used brute force on those who openly resisted. After all that I've read, especially the Autobiography of Avaakum & the objective history of the period of the Raskol, especially about those martyred by the forces of Tsar Alexei, and using an Old Rite Prayerbook, Gospel Commentary, Lestovka and Horologion the Russian Old Rite was not in need of great reform such as Nikon imposed but was a venerable and beautiful form of Orthodoxy which those who became the Old Believers clung to so adamantly and only more so after the reforms because of the brutal persecutions they were forced to endure simply for defending the legitimate Rites and Practices of their ancestors and the great Saints of Russia before them such as St.Sergius. How would they feel submitting to foreign bishops who've anathematized the very way of making the sign of the Cross which numerous Saints used? Finallly in the Twentieth Century many Russians especially clergymen came to the inevitable conclusion that the anathemas of the council of 1666 against the Old Rite were illegitimate and the persecution of the Old Believers a great historical injustice. In the 1970s the ROCOR and MP both, though separate and not recognizing each other at the time, admitted this and even asked the forgiveness of the Old Believers!
I came to be particularly interested in the Belokrinitsky because they are much different from the Bezpopovsty in their views, they bear similarities to the Old Calendarists, and because I wanted to know more about the history of the Old Believers who restored a hierarchy, by a Greek Bishop, and continued to use all the old Russian Liturgical books and practice their rites exactly as they were three-hundred-and-fifty years ago. I also wondered if it might be possible for the Belokrinitsky, that is the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church under Met. Kornily of Moscow and the Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church under Met. Leonty of Braila to enter into talks with the MP and possibly reconcile and restore communion with "world Orthodoxy"?
Unfortunately after the reading I've done it looks VERY unlikely that we will see such a thing happen. The internal divisions amongst those Old Believers under Belokrinitsky bishops and particularly the divisions between Met. Leonty and Archbishop Sofroni within the Lipovan Orthodox Old Rite Church. Archbishop Sofrony presides over the communities in Australia, Oregon and Alaska. He has been accused of immoral actions, Ecumenism, and insubordination by Met. Leonty. There is still the division in Australia with a parish Church which split in two halves with one halve not submitting to the Lipovan Bishop and then gaining the support of the Russian Orthodox Old Rite bishops. So there is a situation in Australia of over-lapping jurisdiction which transgresses the canons in a terrible way! From what I understand there is also a growing divide between the Lipovan and Russian Belokrinitsky churches that has come about over the past fifteen years do to squabbling and disagreements over territory.  Within the Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church there is much difference of opinion about how to deal with the MP with some adamantly maintaining that they are heretics with whom they must have nothing to do. Others seem to think that there should be much more dialogue with the MP and enter into an active collaboration with the MP in exerting influence on the Russian Govt. & Nation.
To simply return to your original statement I don't want to have a repeat of an already argued topic of the Sign of the Cross and whether the two-fingered method, now alone practiced by those who use the Russian Old Rite, is the original way of blessing and of signing yourself. I think the abundant iconography leaves no doubt about this but of course people will always argue.
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2010, 06:07:53 PM »

 Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... Huh
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2010, 11:02:02 PM »

Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... Huh
To be honest I do prefer the two fingers for the dual natures of Christ tracing the Cross because it is Christ not the whole Trinity which was crucified. However the pinky, ring, and thumb equally are touched affirming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity who the Sacrifice on the Cross was offered up to. The practice of using the Trinitarian formula with the Sign of the Cross, that is three fingers saying In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit came to Orthodoxy from Latin influence. It is true that we are baptized using the Trinitarian Formula but the practice of using it with the Sign of the Cross was not common to Orthodoxy until the Modern era from what I've read and understand. Below is a text often cited to show that the modern practice of the Sign of the Cross as practiced in Orthodoxy actually comes from the Latins. Note below that this is a Medieval Pope who is telling them to make the Sign of the Cross with Three Finger from RIGHT TO LEFT which is unlike the modern Latin practice of Left to Right.

Pope Innocent III (1198–1216) gave the following instruction:
The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. ... This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth, and from the Jews (right) He passed to the Gentiles (left). Others, however, make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because from misery (left) we must cross over to glory (right), just as Christ crossed over from death to life, and from Hades to Paradise. [Some priests] do it this way so that they and the people will be signing themselves in the same way. You can easily verify this — picture the priest facing the people for the blessing — when we make the sign of the cross over the people, it is from left to right...


Personally I prefer to say the Jesus Prayer while making the Sign of the Cross with Two fingers. Forehead- Gospodi, Belly - Isusa Hriste, Right Shoulder- Sine Bozhe, Left- Pomilui Nash. But I have no problem with saying "In Nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti." What I have to emphasize again and again is that it was NOT the Old Believers who made the Sign of the Cross a matter of Life and Death it was the REFORMERS WHO ANATHEMATIZED AND PERSECUTED PEOPLE FOR USING TWO FINGERS in the Sign of the Cross! What was the big deal? In the West some use five fingers for the five wounds of Christ, some use the index and middle together straight leaving the thumb out and the ring and pinky bent to the palm and I don't know where that came from, some use three fingers, some just leave their hand open with fingers not together and will just touch lightly using their middle finger. Yes Roman Catholicism is heresy but I'm just pointing out that people can hold the same faith and have varying individual practices. It really is still shocking to me all the fighting over making the sign of the Cross with two fingers! They even denied the Sainthood of Anna of Kashin over this issue when she had already been declared a Saint after they uncovered her relics and found her right hand in the form of using the two fingered sign which the Old Believers took as a great sign to validate their cause.
Lord Have Mercy if I go too far but often it is those who seek reform who are overly strict, brute and harsh rather than those who are traditional resist any un-necessary reform that would introduce innovation to the detriment of the faith.
I hope that this helped. I know it wasn't a quick straight answer.
Please pray for me.
When you pray for me you can make the Sign of the Cross with two or three fingers as long as you are giving Right-Glory! as long as you are Orthodox!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 11:03:17 PM by Lenexa » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2010, 01:24:05 AM »

Thank you very much for this information, I appreciate it immensely.
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Ελέησον με, ο Θεός, κατά το μέγα έλεος σου και κατά το πλήθος των οικτιρμών σου εξάλειψον το ανόμημα μου.

Αναστάς ο Ιησούς από του τάφου, καθώς προείπεν, έδωκεν ημίν την αιώνιον ζωήν και το μέγα έλεος.
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2010, 10:59:50 AM »

I want to revive this, I've also recently become interested in the Old-Rite, and their points seem very convincing, I wonder what the typical Orthodox response to them is, I haven't been able to find anything.

Rocor has an Old-Rite Parish in Erie PA. I know people who travel there frequently and attend services.

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 10:20:51 PM »

I'm glad people are interested Smiley
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