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Author Topic: Can anyone help answer my questions?  (Read 10935 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 21, 2010, 12:32:17 PM »

I am a student (future health professional) researching orthodox christianity. I have found a lot of information in the library and internet but was wondering if anyone could fill me in on the current views on conception, abortion, contraception, sex before marriage and childbirth. Or if there is anything else relating to any of these that would interest people wanting to know more about orthodox christianity.

Ps. I hope you don't mind me posting here, I have rang a number of people and emailed people from orthodox churches but am yet to have a reply.  Thank you for your time, I look forward to your replies  Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 01:13:09 PM »

I am a student (future health professional) researching orthodox christianity. I have found a lot of information in the library and internet but was wondering if anyone could fill me in on the current views on conception, abortion, contraception, sex before marriage and childbirth. Or if there is anything else relating to any of these that would interest people wanting to know more about orthodox christianity.

As I understanding it Contraception is acceptable for one who is married and has approval from their spiritual Father. Sex before marriage is thought to be avoided as it is sinful. Abortion is not acceptable

Other more knowledgeable Orthodox can fill in the gaps.

I'm an Inquirer too. Welcome!
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 01:31:15 PM »

Here is the Greek archdiocese of America website in which many of these topics can be researched: http://www.goarch.org/
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 01:38:11 PM »

One sigificant thing about Orthodoxy is that our moral teachings (such as abortion and sexuality) are primarily derived from the Holy Tradition of the Church, not from individualistic interpretations of the Bible. This is why you will notice that Protestants are all over the map in regard to issues such as gay marriage, abortion, contraception, etc.; but Orthodoxy has consistently taught the same thing about such issues for two thousand years.

The Teachings and Traditions of the Orthodox Church are based upon Scripture, but they also include other apostolic writings such as the Didache and the Didascalia. Therefore, where the Bible is ambiguous, the Holy Tradtion of the Church clarifies the matter. For example, consider the issue of abortion. The Bible does not say anything explicitly about abortion, and Protestants develop different opinions about this issue based upon their view of the Bible and their particular biblical hermeneutic (interpretational system). But in the apostolic writings of the Didache and the Didascalia, the issue of abortion is specifically condemned in no uncertain terms.

So, as Orthodox Christians, we are blessed to have both the divine gifts of the Holy Bible and Holy Church Tradition. Therefore, our morality is not subjective, situational, or relative to the mores of modern culture; instead, the moral teachings of the Church are clear, inviolate, and and beneficial for ourselves and the the world in which we live.

Selam
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 05:34:34 PM »

Conception: according to the traditional teaching of the Orthodox Church, conception is the beginning of a human life.

Abortion: condemned; however, the Orthodox Church is very strongly against violence as means to prevent abortion.

Contraception: non-abortive methods of contraception within marriage are a pastoral issue (i.e. a married couple should seek advice and blessing of their parish priest, because there is no "one-size-fits-it-all" precepts on this).

Sex before marriage: considered sinful, like any other form of extramarital sex. Pre-marital sexual relations are generally called "fornication," which is a lesser sin than adultery (sexual relations with some who is somebody else's spouse). Couples that are not married and yet live together and have sex are counceled to get married, or, otherwise, separate.

Childbirth: always a blessing.
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 09:42:08 PM »

To go back to the first questions I just want to add a link to Vladimir Moss's book The Theology of Eros
http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/149_THE_THEOLOGY_OF_EROS.pdf
This book gives a great deal of explanation with regards to sexuality and what is sinful and what is blameless. My understanding has always been that abortion is NEVER acceptable, conception of a child is blessing from God, contraception is an issue for discretion and marriage should precede sexuality. From what I recall from the Canons of St.Basil when young people are involved sexually before marriage it simply states: "let them be married lest they fall into greater sin." However it does not, from what I remember, specify any time period of penance as it does for other sins and masturbation is given a penance of two years! I think adultery carried a penance of seven years. Now of course such penance time periods are different today but I think that this can tell us that the Church can exercise leniency to those who fall into the sin of sex before marriage. Please pray for me and forgive if I am mistaken.
I used to have a much stricter and judgmental view on these issues but human beings are all weak in some ways and often overwhelmed by passions especially when in love. Perhaps this the reason for such leniency while those engaged in sexual acts purely motivated by selfish desire for pleasure which often result in objectifying the opposite sex and even deception of others and yourself are judged so harshly.
With regards to murdering abortionists and people who are having abortions I think that killing them is more extreme and here is why:
You may not want to think about this but there are a lot of young girls some even 11 and 12 years old pressured into sex by older boys and much worse by family relatives. I can think of one case where I knew the man who was convicted by overwhelming physical evidence of raping his eleven year old daughter! When they get pregnant they are likely to be pressured into having an abortion by others. Is this young girl guilty of murdering their child in the same way an adult who was simply promiscuous is?
Now as to the abortionist: Many of them think about cases such as above, or think about all the abused or neglected children or children of abusive or foolish parents and think that they are preventing such things from happening by providing the "service" that they do. They have lied to themselves against science that they are not killing a baby. They think, "Well it's really not a baby until at least after the first trimester and the vast majority of abortions are during the first trimester so it's really not murder." Now this last part is offensive to us but that is how I think most of them view it. That they are helping innocent women and keeping child abuse and neglect from happening. I agree that it is always murder but I just can't bring myself to support killing them. Maybe if that was the only way to stop women from getting abortions but I just think that the way it is so easy for them to convince themselves that they are not committing murder makes it too extreme.
As for genocidal tyrants:
Open rebellion and killing of such must be motivated by a real just war to overthrow and impose a just authority. I do believe in the Just War. It is unfortunate that seldom are wars truly Just or even close, especially now, and even in Orthodox countries this has been true. At the end of the Time of Troubles the False Dmitri II was defeated and his 3 year old son was murdered along with his wife!
God help me I would kill a genocidal tyrant if there were no other way. I would've killed Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin or Adolf Hitler with little qualms. But what would've happened? Would an overthrow and change of power take place? Yes I probably would still kill such madmen but would rather overthrow their evil government's entirely.
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 02:51:55 AM »

I am a student (future health professional) researching orthodox christianity.

Welcome to the forum! Here are some articles which I hope you will find useful.

conception

"WHOSE BODY IS IT, ANYWAY ?"
http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=33&MONTH=May&YEAR=2003

abortion

Orthodox Christians and Abortion
http://yya.oca.org/TheHub/Articles/TheChurchonCurrentIssues/OrthodoxChristianAndAbortion.htm

contraception, sex before marriage, childbirth

This article on Bioethics should address this question, along with several others:

For the Health of Body and Soul: An Eastern Orthodox Introduction to Bioethics
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8076

Ps. I hope you don't mind me posting here, I have rang a number of people and emailed people from orthodox churches but am yet to have a reply.  Thank you for your time, I look forward to your replies  Smiley

A quick note about Orthodox priests; they are notoriously slow about returning phone calls and answering email, so don't take it personally. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 03:34:42 AM »


A quick note about Orthodox priests; they are notoriously slow about returning phone calls and answering email, so don't take it personally. Wink

I know this is off topic, but can anyone explain why this is the case? I have noticed it, and I find it odd. I don't mean to sound judgmental (forgive me please Embarrassed), but what if someone was on the verge of suicide and wanted to talk to their Priest? Or maybe it isn't suicide, but a life altering crisis?

I realize that Priests cannot baby sit every parishoner. But it seems like they could at least return a phone call or send a brief reply to an email.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME. I AM ONLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. I KNOW THIS SOUNDS SOOO DISRESPECTFUL. Embarrassed


Selam
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 12:43:27 PM »

I am a student (future health professional) researching orthodox christianity. I have found a lot of information in the library and internet but was wondering if anyone could fill me in on the current views on conception, abortion, contraception, sex before marriage and childbirth. Or if there is anything else relating to any of these that would interest people wanting to know more about orthodox christianity.

Ps. I hope you don't mind me posting here, I have rang a number of people and emailed people from orthodox churches but am yet to have a reply.  Thank you for your time, I look forward to your replies  Smiley


Let me just apologize for how fast your sincere question was taken completely off track. For the most part Orthodoxy pretty much agrees with Roman Catholicism and other conservative/traditional Churches on these issues you raised. However there are a few differences, and I think Orthodoxy tends to not make blanket statements on issues of abortion/contraception in particular due to pastoral issues which may arise in individual couples etc. Sex before marriage is certainly considered not OK, but of course one can always repent, so it's not like anyone who's done that is forever "out" with the Church. Definitely check out the www.goarch.org website as well as www.oca.org

Both have FAQ sections and will get you a good basic primer on a lot of these issues.
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 04:17:22 PM »

Tangent on the assassination of abortion providers made the subject of this separate thread:  The Assassination of Abortion Practitioners Morally Equivalent to the Assassination of Genocidal Tyrants?
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 04:50:55 PM »

. . .the current views on conception. . .

Have a look:
1. a 5-part essay on contraception written from the Orthodox perspective: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Orthodoxy+and+contraception%2C+part%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fochlophobist.blogspot.com
2. a post by one of OC.net members who is an Orthodox priest: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25368.msg397242.html#msg397242

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 09:03:20 PM »


I think Orthodoxy tends to not make blanket statements on issues of abortion/contraception in particular due to pastoral issues which may arise in individual couples etc. Sex before marriage is certainly considered not OK, but of course one can always repent, so it's not like anyone who's done that is forever "out" with the Church.


From the Didache, 2:2
"Thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born."

So we see that the Apostles of our Faith did make blanket statements about abortion, fornication, and adultery. Repentance is the result of true faith, and therefore should not be thought of simply in terms of :an out.;" i.e. "Of course one can always repent."

The grace of God and the Cross of Our Lord does indeed make it possible for even the worst of sinners to find divine forgiveness and life in Christ. Many Saints were formerly murderers, adulterers, and thieves.

As far as birth control, I would agree that you should read other Orthodox opinions on the subject and consult your spiritual father (if you have one). But without exception, those forms of birth control that are abortifacients (such as the birth control pill) are to be rejected outright because they can indeed cause the abortion of nascent human life.


Selam
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 09:05:22 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2010, 06:54:33 AM »

Thank you for your replies! Some of the answers were very helpful and very interesting and I am pleased I now understand a religion that I was originally unfamiliar with.
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2010, 08:25:40 AM »


I think Orthodoxy tends to not make blanket statements on issues of abortion/contraception in particular due to pastoral issues which may arise in individual couples etc. Sex before marriage is certainly considered not OK, but of course one can always repent, so it's not like anyone who's done that is forever "out" with the Church.


From the Didache, 2:2
"Thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born."

So we see that the Apostles of our Faith did make blanket statements about abortion, fornication, and adultery. Repentance is the result of true faith, and therefore should not be thought of simply in terms of :an out.;" i.e. "Of course one can always repent."

The grace of God and the Cross of Our Lord does indeed make it possible for even the worst of sinners to find divine forgiveness and life in Christ. Many Saints were formerly murderers, adulterers, and thieves.

As far as birth control, I would agree that you should read other Orthodox opinions on the subject and consult your spiritual father (if you have one). But without exception, those forms of birth control that are abortifacients (such as the birth control pill) are to be rejected outright because they can indeed cause the abortion of nascent human life.


Selam


The word often translated as 'fornication' in that quote is πορνεία - porneia - from which the word 'pornography' comes from.  It actually doesn't mean 'fornication' at all. Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2010, 11:29:45 AM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.
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« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2010, 04:32:36 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

Correct.


Selam
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2010, 04:58:41 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 05:06:27 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2010, 05:07:18 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2010, 05:07:46 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2010, 05:08:37 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2010, 05:09:26 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2010, 05:10:16 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2010, 05:10:36 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2010, 05:11:12 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.


Well please correct me then. I have been wrong before. But if the Church teaches that premarital sex is not a sin, then it's news to me. Your knowledge of Orthodoxy is probably much broader than mine, so please provide us with evidence of Church teachings that support your claim.

Selam
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2010, 05:11:37 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
What propaganda?
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2010, 05:11:59 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?

Authority? I didn't know that theological opinions required authority to be thought.
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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.


Well please correct me then. I have been wrong before. But if the Church teaches that premarital sex is not a sin, then it's news to me. Your knowledge of Orthodoxy is probably much broader than mine, so please provide us with evidence of Church teachings that support your claim.

Selam

I never said the Church did. If someone denies that the Church teaches something it doesn't mean that they are asserting that it teaches the contrary. There is the grey area of the Church not teaching anything on the matter.
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« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2010, 05:14:05 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
What propaganda?

The common propaganda that people assert of the Church teaching any number of various things because it is convenient to their agenda.
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2010, 05:15:51 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?

Authority? I didn't know that theological opinions required authority to be thought.
Well, you're asserting your thoughts on an Orthodox discussion board in opposition to what is generally accepted to be Church moral teaching on human sexuality.  Why should anyone care what you think if it's not backed up by anything more than your desire to be rebellious?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:16:53 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2010, 05:16:20 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
What propaganda?

The common propaganda that people assert of the Church teaching any number of various things because it is convenient to their agenda.
What agenda?
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2010, 05:18:19 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
What propaganda?

The common propaganda that people assert of the Church teaching any number of various things because it is convenient to their agenda.
What agenda?

Various social/political/doctrinal agendas that people where people commonly say "the Church teaches this" and "the Church teaches that" to bolster their agenda, not because they know the Church to have ecumenically taught something, but because they assume that the Church must teach exactly what they believe.
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2010, 05:19:19 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?

Authority? I didn't know that theological opinions required authority to be thought.
Well, you're asserting your thoughts on an Orthodox discussion board in opposition to what is generally accepted to be Church moral teaching on human sexuality.  Why should anyone care what you think if it's not backed up by anything more than your desire to be rebellious?

Desire to be rebellious? I'm not surprised that you are seeking to slander me once again. I won't waste my time trying to discuss with the likes of you anymore.
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2010, 05:23:09 PM »

It's one of those 'grey areas' that weren't covered by the creeds or councils, or scripture. Analysed objectively, it's foolish to think that the model of 'no sex before marriage' could work for the entire world to create healthy, lifelong relationships. Marriage should be taken seriously, not jumped into recklessly. It takes time to work out who is the right person with whom to spend your life - for many people, part of working that out involves a sexual relationship. Sex is important in a healthy relationship - enjoyable, stimulating, unifying sex which strengthens the bond of love. It can't just be a boring task to be gotten over and done with as if it were a chore. Sometimes, although we may find someone attractive, we may find them completely unsatisfying sexually, for various reasons (poorly functioning organs could be one).
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2010, 05:26:35 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.
Why are you so tired of this?

Because it reeks of propaganda.
What propaganda?

The common propaganda that people assert of the Church teaching any number of various things because it is convenient to their agenda.
What agenda?

Various social/political/doctrinal agendas that people where people commonly say "the Church teaches this" and "the Church teaches that" to bolster their agenda, not because they know the Church to have ecumenically taught something, but because they assume that the Church must teach exactly what they believe.
But, as regards sexual morality, how can you assert that Gebre is saying, "The Church teaches this," merely to support his agenda?  It seems to me that most Christians, be they Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant, recognize that the Bible and the universal witness of the Church speak out against sex outside of marriage.  It seems to me that you're the only one asserting otherwise, and you haven't even given us any authoritative reason why outside of merely citing your license to have your own opinion on the matter.  Based on all this, it seems to me that the only one really trying to accomplish an agenda is you.  Why?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:27:40 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2010, 05:28:32 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?

Authority? I didn't know that theological opinions required authority to be thought.
Well, you're asserting your thoughts on an Orthodox discussion board in opposition to what is generally accepted to be Church moral teaching on human sexuality.  Why should anyone care what you think if it's not backed up by anything more than your desire to be rebellious?

Desire to be rebellious? I'm not surprised that you are seeking to slander me once again. I won't waste my time trying to discuss with the likes of you anymore.
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2010, 05:33:17 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.


Well please correct me then. I have been wrong before. But if the Church teaches that premarital sex is not a sin, then it's news to me. Your knowledge of Orthodoxy is probably much broader than mine, so please provide us with evidence of Church teachings that support your claim.

Selam

I never said the Church did. If someone denies that the Church teaches something it doesn't mean that they are asserting that it teaches the contrary. There is the grey area of the Church not teaching anything on the matter.

OK. Then I guess it's a matter for couples to discuss with their spiritual Fathers. I'm going out on a limb and guessing that Priests would not condone premarital sex. But we have some Priests on this forum that might be able to clarify this for us if they so choose.


Selam
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2010, 05:33:54 PM »

It's one of those 'grey areas' that weren't covered by the creeds or councils, or scripture.
But why must something be covered by the creeds, councils, or scripture to have any dogmatic authority?  Can the universal witness of the Church be reduced to these organs?
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2010, 05:35:22 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.
On what grounds?

I do not think that it is inherently sinful to have sex before consecration in the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony.
That's nice.  But on what authority do you think this?

Authority? I didn't know that theological opinions required authority to be thought.
Well, you're asserting your thoughts on an Orthodox discussion board in opposition to what is generally accepted to be Church moral teaching on human sexuality.  Why should anyone care what you think if it's not backed up by anything more than your desire to be rebellious?

Desire to be rebellious? I'm not surprised that you are seeking to slander me once again. I won't waste my time trying to discuss with the likes of you anymore.
You've no need to repeat what you just said ten minutes ago.
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2010, 05:40:41 PM »

It's one of those 'grey areas' that weren't covered by the creeds or councils, or scripture. Analysed objectively, it's foolish to think that the model of 'no sex before marriage' could work for the entire world to create healthy, lifelong relationships. Marriage should be taken seriously, not jumped into recklessly. It takes time to work out who is the right person with whom to spend your life - for many people, part of working that out involves a sexual relationship. Sex is important in a healthy relationship - enjoyable, stimulating, unifying sex which strengthens the bond of love. It can't just be a boring task to be gotten over and done with as if it were a chore. Sometimes, although we may find someone attractive, we may find them completely unsatisfying sexually, for various reasons (poorly functioning organs could be one).

This opinion is not only unOrthodox, but it is refuted by the evidence. It has been proven that married couples have longer lasting and happier marriages when both people are virgins before their marriage. And common sense dictates that the more partners you have prior to marriage, the less likely you will be to find enduring sexual satisfaction with your spouse. A spouse should not be "shopped for" like a common object.  It's not like buying a car that you need to test drive beforehand.

Selam
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 05:42:56 PM by Gebre Menfes Kidus » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2010, 05:49:05 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.


Well please correct me then. I have been wrong before. But if the Church teaches that premarital sex is not a sin, then it's news to me. Your knowledge of Orthodoxy is probably much broader than mine, so please provide us with evidence of Church teachings that support your claim.

Selam

I never said the Church did. If someone denies that the Church teaches something it doesn't mean that they are asserting that it teaches the contrary. There is the grey area of the Church not teaching anything on the matter.

OK. Then I guess it's a matter for couples to discuss with their spiritual Fathers. I'm going out on a limb and guessing that Priests would not condone premarital sex. But we have some Priests on this forum that might be able to clarify this for us if they so choose.


Selam

Like I have said, I have met a few canonical EO priests who told me that they would allow homosexual relations in the context of long-term monogamy; as such I am sure that the number who would permit heterosexual relations in the context of long-term monogamy would be significantly greater.
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »


You've no need to repeat what you just said ten minutes ago.

I quoted it as my response to post #34.
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« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2010, 05:51:35 PM »

It's one of those 'grey areas' that weren't covered by the creeds or councils, or scripture. Analysed objectively, it's foolish to think that the model of 'no sex before marriage' could work for the entire world to create healthy, lifelong relationships. Marriage should be taken seriously, not jumped into recklessly. It takes time to work out who is the right person with whom to spend your life - for many people, part of working that out involves a sexual relationship. Sex is important in a healthy relationship - enjoyable, stimulating, unifying sex which strengthens the bond of love. It can't just be a boring task to be gotten over and done with as if it were a chore. Sometimes, although we may find someone attractive, we may find them completely unsatisfying sexually, for various reasons (poorly functioning organs could be one).

This opinion is not only unOrthodox, but it is refuted by the evidence. It has been proven that married couples have longer lasting and happier marriages when both people are virgins before their marriage. And common sense dictates that the more partners you have prior to marriage, the less likely you will be to find enduring sexual satisfaction with your spouse. A spouse should not be "shopped for" like a common object.  It's not like buying a car that you need to test drive beforehand.

Selam
I understand also that sexual intercourse releases chemicals into the brain that arouse intense emotions that can cloud one's reasoning and make it much more difficult to engage in the careful thought process so necessary for wise mate selection.
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« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2010, 05:52:34 PM »


You've no need to repeat what you just said ten minutes ago.

I quoted it as my response to post #34.
But without any added explanation from you, there's no way of knowing why you quoted your own post.
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« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2010, 05:53:19 PM »

Paul was condemning sexual immorality, not sex before marriage. They are not synonymous.

They are different sins, but still: sins.

I register my disagreement.

And the Church registers hers with you. Wink


Selam

I grow tired of people thinking they know what the Church teaches but without being able to provide evidence of ecumenical statements to back it up.


Well please correct me then. I have been wrong before. But if the Church teaches that premarital sex is not a sin, then it's news to me. Your knowledge of Orthodoxy is probably much broader than mine, so please provide us with evidence of Church teachings that support your claim.

Selam

I never said the Church did. If someone denies that the Church teaches something it doesn't mean that they are asserting that it teaches the contrary. There is the grey area of the Church not teaching anything on the matter.

OK. Then I guess it's a matter for couples to discuss with their spiritual Fathers. I'm going out on a limb and guessing that Priests would not condone premarital sex. But we have some Priests on this forum that might be able to clarify this for us if they so choose.


Selam

Like I have said, I have met a few canonical EO priests who told me that they would allow homosexual relations in the context of long-term monogamy; as such I am sure that the number who would permit heterosexual relations in the context of long-term monogamy would be significantly greater.

Fortunately, I have met no such Priests. I can assure you that they do not exist in the EOTC!


Selam
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