Monasticism - Catholicism and Orthodoxy

[Mickey]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe. But I will answer your question.

I am old enough to remember attending the Latin Mass of my youth.  To see this now--is a travesty.

[Papist]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.

You seem to have a real inferiority complex.

Not at all. Just as you believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, I believe of my Church. What I am confused about is why you are so offened about Liturgical abuses in a Church that you don't even think has the Blessed Sacrament to offend in the first place. It seems like a bit of a contradiction.

[Irish Hermit]

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language. 

I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

[Papist]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

[Papist]

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language. 

I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

[Mickey]

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor. 

[Papist]

I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap.

LOL! The Byzantine Catholics would beg to differ with you.

Well then they would be wrong.

[Papist]

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor. 

I can understand your other reasons. You didn't believe in what the teachings of the Catholic Church anymore. I am sympathetic to that. But this other reason, well I think that its plain silliness.

[Mickey]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.

I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems. 

[Irish Hermit]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.
Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

[Papist]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.

I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems. 

It will if they actually take me up on it.

[Mickey]

I think that its plain silliness.

I am sure they will be glad to hear that.

[Papist]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.
Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

Again, I agree that there are problems right now. But he majority of Catholics will never see a "Clown Mass" or a "Devil/Halloween Mass" and I am sure you know this.

[Papist]

I think that its plain silliness.

I am sure they will be glad to hear that.

Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.

[Mickey]

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.
Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!

[Papist]

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.
Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!

You are right. Your feelings on the matter are the strangest thing. 

[Mickey]

Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.

Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly. 

[Mickey]

You are right.

Thank you. 

[Papist]

Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.

Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly. 

Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them. That was not the point of my comment about their maturity or lack there of. My point is to describe what I believe is the source of their anguish. If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.

[Papist]

You are right.

Thank you. 

You are welcome. 

[Mickey]

Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.

It would not.

If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.

ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!

[Papist]

Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.

It would not.

If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.

ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!

You are too mickey. 

[Irish Hermit]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

[LBK]

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  

[podkarpatska]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763

[ignatius]

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.

[Papist]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

I think they are making it an issue. But that doesn't mean its a substantial issue in and of itself.

[Papist]

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  

Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

[Papist]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763

I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.

[Papist]

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.

1. Where on earth do you go to Church that you don't experience trustworthy priests?
2. An act of schism will certainly not lead you to sanctity.

[Iconodule]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763

I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.

Curiously, I was banned for the same reason  . The tortured logic that the "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" come up with gets really cartoonish over there.

[LBK]

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  

Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to?  

[ChristusDominus]

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.

I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

[LBK]

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.

I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travesties continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.

[ChristusDominus]

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe. But I will answer your question.

I am old enough to remember attending the Latin Mass of my youth.  To see this now--is a travesty.

I agree

[ChristusDominus]

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.

I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travest" ies continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.

Isn't that a phenomenon?

[Papist]

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763

I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.

Curiously, I was banned for the same reason  . The tortured logic that the "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" come up with gets really cartoonish over there.

I guess we will have to be in agreement on that point.   

[Papist]

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  

Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to?  

Well, I agree with everything you have said here. I think for the most part the extreme abuses in the Liturgy are usually dealt with. That being said, could American Catholic Bishops stand to be tougher? They sure could. The problem is that once pandora's box has been opened, it takes a long time pull all those demons back in. I believe that we are in the process of fixing the problem but I don't believe that it will happen over night.

I have a questions as well. Since contraception is contrary to traditional Orthodox morality, why are your bishops not doing more to preach against it? You see, once a negative movement like this has begun, its really hard to stop.

[Papist]

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.

I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travest" ies continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.

Isn't that a phenomenon?

I love your Avatar btw. St. Pio was an amazing saint.

[LBK]

The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks. 

Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to? 

Well, I agree with everything you have said here. I think for the most part the extreme abuses in the Liturgy are usually dealt with. That being said, could American Catholic Bishops stand to be tougher? They sure could. The problem is that once pandora's box has been opened, it takes a long time pull all those demons back in. I believe that we are in the process of fixing the problem but I don't believe that it will happen over night.

I have a questions as well. Since contraception is contrary to traditional Orthodox morality, why are your bishops not doing more to preach against it? You see, once a negative movement like this has begun, its really hard to stop.

On your question on contraception: If I were to answer it, I would derail the thread. At any rate, this is an individual pastoral matter, while at the same time, Orthodox bishops in my experience haven't exactly been silent on the matter.

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, into cheap entertainment?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

[ignatius]

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?

[LBK]

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

[ignatius]

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.

[Papist]

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.

I have seen both good and bad priests in the EO Church as well. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church here in Albuquerque. The sermon was not about God's call to righteousness or his salavation. It was pretty much one of those warm squishy sermons that many charge Catholic priests with. The other Church I visited was OCA, and I actually visted several times. That priest happens to be the brother of one of the deacons at my old Ruthenian parish. The OCA priest preached a sermon of true repentance and conversion. I suspect that you get both kinds of priest in the EO just as you would get both kinds of priest in the Catholic Church.

[ChristusDominus]

I love your Avatar btw. St. Pio was an amazing saint.

Thanks, he truly was an amazing man.Yet, his life was no bowl of cherries.

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