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Author Topic: Monasticism - Catholicism and Orthodoxy  (Read 13267 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: January 22, 2010, 02:54:20 PM »

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.

So washing one's hands of the problem and putting it in the "too hard" basket is the answer? Why bother with catechesis, then? Education, of clergy and laity alike, is ultimately the solution.
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« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2010, 02:55:32 PM »

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.
I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.
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« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2010, 03:02:19 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
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« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2010, 05:54:21 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
Thanks for sharing. What do they do now?
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« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2010, 09:39:05 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
Thanks for sharing. What do they do now?

Personally, I don't know. An Orthodox Christian will have to file us in. Personally, I think a lot of the early Church changed after the Empire assumed it whole clothe like it did. I can't imagine the early Church getting their Bishops appointments approved by the secular leaders nor communicating with the Pope in Rome, for that matter.

My view of the early Church is rather one of spiritual elders being elevated by popular acclaim by the community without secular approval nor Papal appointment... simple popular acclamation.
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« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2010, 12:31:16 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I'm curious to know your views. What is the goal of monasticism? Please note, I would rather hear something more substantial than simply 'theosis' from Orthodox and something more substantial than "keeping the Commandments" from Catholics.

Thank you all.

Ignatius,

I know the thread has moved on, but I'm going to answer the OP. 

I'd recommend several sources where you can get the answer:

1. the Service of Monastic Tonsuring in the "Byzantine Rite"

2. the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and of Saint Makarios.
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=2667
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=2668

3. the Synaxarion , which has abundant examples of the different forms of monastic life and shows their similarities and differences.   
http://www.easternchristiansupply.biz/-#books/c14/c7298/c28898/a16521
[this one is published by the Monastery of Simonopetra on Mount Athos.  It's expensive but WELL worth the money]

4. the sections on Monasticism in Archmandrite Aemilianos (former Abbot of the Monastery of Simonopetra on Mount Athos)'s book The Church at Prayer - e.g. "if we don't become men of prayer, if we get lost in [such and such worldly matter], our whole coming to Mount Athos will be worthless". [this is an awesome book]
http://www.liturgica.com/cart/bookInfo.jsp?catNo=BF066

5. the final chapter of Archmandrite Vassilios (former Abbot of the Monastery of Iviron on Mount Athos)'s book "Hymn of Entry. 
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=96

6. Metropolitan Jonah's article in another thread gives some clues also. 
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25541.new.html#new


Finally, my opinion, paraphrasing the above:

The monk is a man who is called by God to live a particular form of Christian life, where one's "vocation" in life is to "die" to the world and live in a wholistic way devoted to God, to communicating to God in very "advanced" prayer, living away from the "world" as a solitary or in a cenobium, and expressing this to the world - to creation, to your brother monks, to the people you meet, to the pilgrims - in a loving, God-like manner.    [I'd say the same for Nuns]

In contrast, the "ideal" non-monastic life has one praying all day, indeed has one ideally allowing God to "prosper the work of your hands".  But it's different in that you don't give up all the trappings of the world.  You go on wearing/buying regular clothes, you can amass money, things, you can get married and have children - all in accordance with God's will for you.   

Note, IMO, monasticism (or lay life) is not willed, it's called by God and one lives it.   Also, note that, as per the Desert Fathers, someone living in the town can be just as holy as a monk.   

IMO,

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And for the rest of my life to please Thee
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O Lord before I utterly perish do Thou save me!
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« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2010, 01:17:35 AM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Again, the thread has drifted from this question a bit, but IMO on this:

These things happen because large swathes of the Latin Church have forgotten what worship is.  Because of this, they insert different things because they like it, because they think it makes them relevant, or whatever.  This is not just a modern phenomenon - we have in the 1400s various blasphemous things going on during Masses as well as "parody Masses" where the hymnody parodied popular songs.  In the 1700s we have Masses where the priest did his own thing, an orchestra played a "mass setting" which was more like a secular concert (the best of these are Mozart's Masses.  But there were also lots of Masses of lesser quality that no one plays anymore).  In the 1950s we have people going to Father such and such's Mass because he got you out of your Sunday obligation in 30 minutes.

I'm not saying this was the way things were everywhere, but they were definite realities and I think the Latin Church still struggles with many of the same mentalities today, even though the form is different.  Compounding all this is having multiple Masses in one liturgical day (as many as seven), all run by one different presbyter according, in many ways, to his wishes.  We have non-Mass liturgies being regulated to private devotions and extraliturgical devotions becoming pseudo-liturgies.  

This is even the case in St. Peter's - in fact, that place sometimes can seem like a liturgical zoo, with all kinds of priests visiting and saying Masses with their tour groups at a schedule convenient to them and to the Basilica, while the tourists run around gawking, snapping pictures (with flash, even though there's a whole army of ushers who constantly say "no flash!") and talking [I am equally guilty of this, though I tried to be more discrete and reverent].   The sense is that of private people or groups doing their own thing, not "one community, one worship" and ensuring that that worship is sober, orthodox, involves everyone, and conducted in accordance with the spirit of the Church.   They can't go back to the days of Late Antiquity, where ONLY the bishop of a diocese said Mass (in Rome the Pope said Mass three times a week and that was it), but there needs to be something done to move away from the idea that a "private liturgy means that I can do things as I like".      

Finally, I agree with Father Ambrose that priests who do/condone outrageous things at Mass should be removed.  But frequently, the Bishops would generally condone those outrageous things, and even if they didn't they generally don't like removing priests.  And Rome can do little because, despite the centralization of the current Latin Church, it's incapable of micromanaging the whole of said church.  

That being said, I personally don't believe the Latin Church is completely off - in fact, there are places where it's surprisingly strong.   The decree of the Second Vatican Council on Liturgy is excellent - e.g. its liturgical theology, its insistence on liturgical chant, on public celebration of Vespers and Matins/Lauds.  But fat chance finding it implemented correctly anywhere.  

IMO, the best thing the Pope could do about all this is to figure out how to implement things correctly (based on his books, I have no doubt that he understands how to do this), to do so in Saint Peter's or whatever church he happens to be in on a particular day, and to broadcast it via Vatican TV (where it'll be picked up by EWTN and similar stations).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 01:18:05 AM by MarkosC » Logged

O Lord although I desired to blot out
with my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please Thee
through sincere repentance
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
against my sould with his cunning

O Lord before I utterly perish do Thou save me!
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« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2010, 03:35:14 AM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.
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« Reply #143 on: January 23, 2010, 03:46:09 AM »

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.

Over some Parishes in communion with Rome in North America, I find a great shadow of Sloth which has taken away any zeal. There simply is not fervor for our salvation nor for that of others. Don't get me wrong, it is not all like that but like I have said I really like 'real' Orthodox Christians whom I meet 'on the ground'... they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean. In fact, I only meet such characters on forums. None of the Orthodox Christian I know personally demean the Roman Catholic Church. I attended Catholic Evening Prayer tonight for those in Haiti. Lord have Mercy. It was not unlike Vespers with the Orthodox but it seems to take such a calamity such as Haiti to bring us out for a Vespers Service.
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« Reply #144 on: January 23, 2010, 03:56:02 AM »

...they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Forgive me if I've offended you.
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« Reply #145 on: January 23, 2010, 11:33:55 PM »

...they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Forgive me if I've offended you.

Oh, please. There is no need for you to apologize Alveus Lacuna, I was not meaning you by any stretch of the imagination.

I spoke to my Orthodox Priest tonight and I will be entering into the Catechumenate before Great Lent. Nice.

But I have to tell you some of people around here lately 'stink of Orthodoxy'.... it's a term I got from a Buddhist who said that some newbies go so overboard that they make Buddhism 'stink'... he he he

Anyways. Pray for me!

Peace.
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« Reply #146 on: January 24, 2010, 04:41:49 PM »

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.

Over some Parishes in communion with Rome in North America, I find a great shadow of Sloth which has taken away any zeal. There simply is not fervor for our salvation nor for that of others. Don't get me wrong, it is not all like that but like I have said I really like 'real' Orthodox Christians whom I meet 'on the ground'... they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean. In fact, I only meet such characters on forums. None of the Orthodox Christian I know personally demean the Roman Catholic Church. I attended Catholic Evening Prayer tonight for those in Haiti. Lord have Mercy. It was not unlike Vespers with the Orthodox but it seems to take such a calamity such as Haiti to bring us out for a Vespers Service.
In the middle ages some converted to Albigensianism because they thought they found more fervor among that community.
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« Reply #147 on: January 24, 2010, 05:58:18 PM »


In the middle ages some converted to Albigensianism because they thought they found more fervor among that community.

Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.

I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
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« Reply #148 on: January 24, 2010, 06:06:25 PM »


Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

First, my point is not that they are the same. Rather, the idea that one should leave the Catholic Church because she is going through a rough time is not a good one. Second, I am not convinced that EOs are entirely orthodox.
You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.
Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church because that is not my experience. You aren't struggling with scrupulocity are you?

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.
Sounds like you have a bad diocese. All the more reason to remain and try to encourage other devout Catholics in your area to demand reform. If all the good Catholics were to leave the Church, where would we be?
I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
First, if you think that you won't think that you won't find liberal priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church, you are sadly mistaken. I know of several in the area in which I live. Second, no one is ever better served by schism. Third, if you think that the Eastern Orthodox Church is so solid, why have they waffled on artificial birth control? Why is the Ecumenical Patriarch so week kneed on the abortion issue?
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« Reply #149 on: January 24, 2010, 06:22:19 PM »


Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

First, my point is not that they are the same. Rather, the idea that one should leave the Catholic Church because she is going through a rough time is not a good one. Second, I am not convinced that EOs are entirely orthodox.
You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.
Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church because that is not my experience. You aren't struggling with scrupulocity are you?

I don't think so. I've never had a Priest suggest to me that I am suffering from scrupulosity. The Catholic Church just doesn't teach nor honor the virtues and vices anymore and think and teach another means of salvation, kinda like liberal Protestantism. It's sad.

Quote

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.
Sounds like you have a bad diocese. All the more reason to remain and try to encourage other devout Catholics in your area to demand reform. If all the good Catholics were to leave the Church, where would we be?

It must be. All I can tell you is I must deal with what I have and where I'm at. I draw much nourishment from Orthodoxy here.

Quote
I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
First, if you think that you won't think that you won't find liberal priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church, you are sadly mistaken. I know of several in the area in which I live. Second, no one is ever better served by schism. Third, if you think that the Eastern Orthodox Church is so solid, why have they waffled on artificial birth control? Why is the Ecumenical Patriarch so week kneed on the abortion issue?

I honestly can't answers those question but I can tell you that I've 'never' heard a Catholic Priest speak up about Artificial Birth Control and there are a lot of Catholics in my parish with one and two children who are in their late 30's and 40's. If they aren't using ABC then they aren't having relations.  Grin

I think the Orthodox approach is a bit more honest though. Kinda like the way they handle second marriages. They recognize it but they look down on it when it happens.
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« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2010, 01:46:19 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.
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« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2010, 04:24:07 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.

unfortunately, I think even though you and I attend the Roman Catholic Church in America we really aren't attending the 'real' Church because I can't find the Roman Catholic Church that you and I speak of where I live. Richmond VA.
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« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2010, 04:27:13 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.

unfortunately, I think even though you and I attend the Roman Catholic Church in America we really aren't attending the 'real' Church because I can't find the Roman Catholic Church that you and I speak of where I live. Richmond VA.
So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?
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« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2010, 04:28:12 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
For that Catholic view of monasticism, I think you can once again read the rule of St. Benedict.

Papist,

Would you agree that ascesis in the West seems to have largely died out since Vatican II? what I mean to say is that renunciation of the World doesn't seem to be the Catholic goal anymore.

There are still monastic orders in the West in which renunciation of the world is important. By and large, Catholic orders are less ascetic than Anglican orders.

A member of my family, who was a nun, said that the goal is to bear witness, and to live to God. For her, the best way of doing that was as a nun, but that is not to say that if you are called to be a secular priest, a parent or any kind of person 'in the world', that you are not doing the same.
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« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2010, 04:30:20 PM »

So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?

I'm just going where the well has water is all. Where I don't see an actually functioning Hierarchy... I don't find Christ's Church. That is kind of an extreme statement so don't take it to far.
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« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2010, 04:32:39 PM »

So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?

I'm just going where the well has water is all. Where I don't see an actually functioning Hierarchy... I don't find Christ's Church. That is kind of an extreme statement so don't take it to far.
I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.
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« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »

I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.

next weekend the Bishop is having a Town hall meeting at our parish to discuss 'concerns'. I'm just 'done' is all. I'm tired of the 'games' Catholic Priests play to avoid being 'orthodox'.
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« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2010, 04:55:05 PM »

I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.

next weekend the Bishop is having a Town hall meeting at our parish to discuss 'concerns'. I'm just 'done' is all. I'm tired of the 'games' Catholic Priests play to avoid being 'orthodox'.
Again, nothing like the area in which I live.
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« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2010, 05:09:25 PM »

Again, nothing like the area in which I live.

The fact that we have fewer and fewer Priests just means that these pockets of Orthodoxy will not grow. The Priests that I know are nothing more than Ministers... and not really strong ones. I've been dialogue with several for years and they are so clever in their ability to argue around simple adherence to the norm of the Catholic Faith. I mean the CCC isn't vague about these things... yet they will flat tell you, to your face, in the midst of the Confessional a completely different thing. I don't feel right arguing with them in the midst of confession and after years of dialogue I honestly don't see how the Catholic Church can return to anything that appears 'orthodox'. They are far to clever and most of the leaders in the Parishes are supportive of their views.

Maybe there are some places out there that are faithful... I've just never seen them. My guess, and I'm only guessing, that if the Pope saw my situation he would be fine with me seeking nourishment in the Orthodox Parishes and Converting. If my Catholic Parish were even half as devout as the Orthodox Parish I attend I would be proud but it isn't. So you have to ask yourself what's the point of hearing all this vapid homilies month after month when there is an Orthodox Parish teaching the real unadulterated faith that has more in common with the Pope than their own Catholic Parishes?

I'm venting a bit so pardon me. But I'm a little tired of Catholics say tough it out, be faithful, and all that jazz when the Catholic Church is sinking... where I live.
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« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »

Again, nothing like the area in which I live.

The fact that we have fewer and fewer Priests just means that these pockets of Orthodoxy will not grow. The Priests that I know are nothing more than Ministers... and not really strong ones. I've been dialogue with several for years and they are so clever in their ability to argue around simple adherence to the norm of the Catholic Faith. I mean the CCC isn't vague about these things... yet they will flat tell you, to your face, in the midst of the Confessional a completely different thing. I don't feel right arguing with them in the midst of confession and after years of dialogue I honestly don't see how the Catholic Church can return to anything that appears 'orthodox'. They are far to clever and most of the leaders in the Parishes are supportive of their views.

Maybe there are some places out there that are faithful... I've just never seen them. My guess, and I'm only guessing, that if the Pope saw my situation he would be fine with me seeking nourishment in the Orthodox Parishes and Converting. If my Catholic Parish were even half as devout as the Orthodox Parish I attend I would be proud but it isn't. So you have to ask yourself what's the point of hearing all this vapid homilies month after month when there is an Orthodox Parish teaching the real unadulterated faith that has more in common with the Pope than their own Catholic Parishes?

I'm venting a bit so pardon me. But I'm a little tired of Catholics say tough it out, be faithful, and all that jazz when the Catholic Church is sinking... where I live.
I am sorry if you are tired of hearing Catholics say tough it out, but that is what calls us too. You say that the Church is not teaching you virtues, but running away to what appears easier is not virtue but vice. Something to think about. You know, during the Arian Crisis, it probably appeared that the Church would never return to her formal glory, but guess what. It did.
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« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2010, 05:27:49 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.
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« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2010, 05:30:31 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make actholics to hesitate about their churches. It is lijke if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Goodness ... well, I've read a fair few of Ignatius' posts, it doesn't sound as if he's a 'schismatic agent'.

This topic is becoming rather like a Monty Python sketch!
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« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2010, 05:32:36 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided
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« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make actholics to hesitate about their churches. It is lijke if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Goodness ... well, I've read a fair few of Ignatius' posts, it doesn't sound as if he's a 'schismatic agent'.

This topic is becoming rather like a Monty Python sketch!
" Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity!..."
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« Reply #164 on: January 25, 2010, 06:07:21 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided

YOU ARE CATHOLIC, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AFTER. But if you want to drop out the ship and go ahead by swiming no problem, we keep in the ship of Peter.
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« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »

YOU ARE CATHOLIC, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AFTER. But if you want to drop out the ship and go ahead by swiming no problem, we keep in the ship of Peter.

I think I now understand the reformation. They looked at each Church fighting over who had grace and who had jurisdiction and they finally determined that they'd just have to brave it alone.
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« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2010, 06:19:06 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!
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« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2010, 06:55:43 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!

May be who knows.
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« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2010, 08:13:26 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.
Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.
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« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2010, 08:14:26 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided
Well, I am certainly not perfect, but I consider you my brother in Christ. If any of my posts have offended you, please forgive me.
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« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!
That's probably not going to help the situation.
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« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2010, 08:28:42 PM »

I spoke to my Orthodox priest tonight and I will be entering into the catechumenate before Great Lent.

Congratulations.  May God keep you safe.
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« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2010, 09:22:36 PM »

Who hijacked the thread ? It's a outrage...
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« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2010, 10:52:33 PM »

Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.

No, No, No... my actions are nobodies fault except my own and those of my Priests, seriously. Saturday at Confession was kinda like the straw that broke the camels back. Far more Orthodox here slamming sincere Catholics trying to work out their salvation in fear and trembling has served more to drawing me to defense them but I honestly can't defend the Catholic Church in America, especially in my neck fo the woods. It is absolutely anti-Catholic Catechism, anti-moral code, pro-license.

That said we really should get this thread back on target.

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline? I've honestly never saw a Catholic praying the rosary at my parish, except during the RCIA session on the Rosary.
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« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2010, 11:58:35 PM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0
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« Reply #175 on: January 26, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0

I have about a 20 minute drive into work every morning which I often say the Trisagion and the Jesus Prayer. My daughter and I pray the Trisagion every evening together with a few added prayers for friends, family, those suffering and those who have passed on. The Orthodox Parish I attend also has a 'rule for home prayer' although we don't tend to make it through that one before my daughter (7 years old) tires out ;-)
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« Reply #176 on: January 26, 2010, 12:03:40 PM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0

I have about a 20 minute drive into work every morning which I often say the Trisagion and the Jesus Prayer. My daughter and I pray the Trisagion every evening together with a few added prayers for friends, family, those suffering and those who have passed on. The Orthodox Parish I attend also has a 'rule for home prayer' although we don't tend to make it through that one before my daughter (7 years old) tires out ;-)

Ignatius, you put me to shame. Only a catechumen and you are already much further ahead than I on the journey (both before and after my conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy).  I say that without any false humility.  I have baited you in the past and ask your forgiveness. Godspeed.
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« Reply #177 on: January 26, 2010, 12:05:38 PM »

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline?

Prayer rule--morning and evening prayer with family. Frequent reading of Scriptures. Spiritual reading pertaining to lives of saints, Church Fathers, theology, etc.  The Jesus Prayer.  Fasting when appropriate.

It is imperative to find a good spiritual father.  Smiley
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« Reply #178 on: January 26, 2010, 12:26:26 PM »

Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.

No, No, No... my actions are nobodies fault except my own and those of my Priests, seriously. Saturday at Confession was kinda like the straw that broke the camels back. Far more Orthodox here slamming sincere Catholics trying to work out their salvation in fear and trembling has served more to drawing me to defense them but I honestly can't defend the Catholic Church in America, especially in my neck fo the woods. It is absolutely anti-Catholic Catechism, anti-moral code, pro-license.

That said we really should get this thread back on target.

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline? I've honestly never saw a Catholic praying the rosary at my parish, except during the RCIA session on the Rosary.

How long have you been preaticing the Liturgy of the Hours?

Here is a good Link for the daily prayer.

http://divineoffice.org/

Jan 26, Morning Prayer for Tuesday of the 3rd week of Ordinary Time


Hymn: Nada te turbe (Taize chant from poem by St Teresa of Avila)
Translation:
May nothing disturb you.
May nothing astonish you.
Everything passes.
God does not go away.
Patience can attain anything.
He who has God within,
does not lack anything.
God is everything!*

Psalm 85 — Our salvation is near
Antiphon 1: Lord, you have blessed your land; you have forgiven the sins of your people.

.2 O Lord, you once favored your land
and revived the fortunes of Jacob,
.3 you forgave the guilt of your people
and covered all their sins.
.4 You averted all your rage,
you calmed the heat of your anger.

.5 Revive us now, God, our helper!
Put an end to your grievance against us.
.6 Will you be angry with us for ever,
will your anger never cease?

.7 Will you not restore again our life
that your people may rejoice in you?
.8 Let us see, O Lord, your mercy
and give us your saving help.

* * *

.9 I will hear what the Lord God has to say,
a voice that speaks of peace,
peace for his people and his friends
and those who turn to him in their hearts.
.10 His help is near for those who fear him
and his glory will dwell in our land.

.11 Mercy and faithfulness have met;
justice and peace have embraced.
.12 Faithfulness shall spring from the earth
and justice look down from heaven.

.13 The Lord will make us prosper
and our earth shall yield its fruit.
.14 Justice shall march before him
and peace shall follow his steps.

Canticle: Isaiah 26:1-4, 7-9, 12 –Hymn after the defeat of the enemy
Antiphon 2: My soul has yearned for you in the night, and as morning breaks I watch for your coming.


Psalm 67 – People of all nations will worship the Lord
Antiphon 3: Lord, let the light of your face shine upon us.

.2 O God, be gracious and bless us
and let your face shed its light upon us.
.3 So will your ways be known upon earth
and all nations learn your saving help.

.4 Let the peoples praise you, O God;
let all the peoples praise you.

.5 Let the nations be glad and exult
for you rule the world with justice.
With fairness you rule the peoples,
you guide the nations on earth.

.6 Let the peoples praise you, O God;
let all the peoples praise you.

.7 The earth has yielded its fruit
for God, our God, has blessed us.
.8 May God still give us his blessing
till the ends of the earth revere him.

Reading: 1 John 4:14-15

14 Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world.
15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God.



Canticle of Zechariah
Antiphon: God has raised up for us a mighty Savior, as he promised of old through the holy prophets.


Intercessions
Antiphon: Remember your people, Lord


Our Father …

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 12:33:06 PM by Alonso_castillo » Logged

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« Reply #179 on: January 26, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »



How long have you been preaticing the Liturgy of the Hours?

Here is a good Link for the daily prayer.

http://divineoffice.org/

Jan 26, Morning Prayer for Tuesday of the 3rd week of Ordinary Time


Actually, I have all that in my iPhone... I like the Liturgy of the Hours. I've prayed it for years. Not Christian Prayer but the actual four volume Set Liturgy of the Hours. In Orthodoxy, they still pray the Old Divine Hours but I don't manage to attend them all with the Parish. Mostly just Wednesday Vespers and Great Vespers on Saturday. I haven't been attending the Divine Liturgy on Sundays because I've still been attending my Catholic Parish on Sundays but I'm feeling that will be coming to a stop as I enter into the Catechumenate but the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours was probably the best thing that came out of Vatican II. to simply it and make it available to everyone was a great idea. I only wish it was incorporated into the life of the Parishes more fully.
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St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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