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Author Topic: Monasticism - Catholicism and Orthodoxy  (Read 13351 times) Average Rating: 0
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ignatius
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« on: January 19, 2010, 10:52:39 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I'm curious to know your views. What is the goal of monasticism? Please note, I would rather hear something more substantial than simply 'theosis' from Orthodox and something more substantial than "keeping the Commandments" from Catholics.

Thank you all.
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 11:44:54 AM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Quote
Listen carefully, my child, to your master's precepts, and incline the ear of your heart (Prov. 4:20). Receive willingly and carry out effectively your loving father's advice, that by the labor of obedience you may return to Him from whom you had departed by the sloth of disobedience. To you, therefore, my words are now addressed, whoever you may be, who are renouncing your own will to do battle under the Lord Christ, the true King, and are taking up the strong, bright weapons of obedience. And first of all, whatever good work you begin to do, beg of Him with most earnest prayer to perfect it,
that He who has now deigned to count us among His children may not at any time be grieved by our evil deeds.

For we must always so serve Him with the good things He has given us, that He will never as an angry Father disinherit His children, nor ever as a dread Lord, provoked by our evil actions, deliver us to everlasting punishment as wicked servants who would not follow Him to glory.

Let us arise, then, at last, for the Scripture stirs us up, saying, "Now is the hour for us to rise from sleep" (Rom. 13:11). Let us open our eyes to the deifying light, let us hear with attentive ears the warning which the divine voice cries daily to us, "Today if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts" (Ps. 94:Cool. And again, "Whoever has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches" (Matt. 11-15; Apoc. 2:7). And what does He say? "Come, My children, listen to Me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord" (Ps. 33:12). "Run while you have the light of life, lest the darkness of death overtake you" (John 12:35).

And the Lord, seeking his laborer in the multitude to whom He thus cries out,
says again, "Who is the one who will have life, and desires to see good days" (Ps. 33:13)? And if, hearing Him, you answer, "I am the one," God says to you, "If you will have true and everlasting life, keep your tongue from evil and your lips that they speak no guile. Turn away from evil and do good; seek after peace and pursue it" (Ps. 33:14-15).

And when you have done these things, My eyes shall be upon you and My ears open to your prayers; and before you call upon Me, I will say to you, 'Behold, here I am'" (Ps. 33:16; Is. 65:24; 58:9).

What can be sweeter to us, dear ones, than this voice of the Lord inviting us? Behold, in His loving kindness the Lord shows us the way of life. Having our loins girded, therefore, with faith and the performance of good works (Eph. 6:14), let us walk in His paths by the guidance of the Gospel, that we may deserve to see Him who has called us to His kingdom (1 Thess. 2:12). For if we wish to dwell in the tent of that kingdom, we must run to it by good deeds or we shall never reach it.

But let us ask the Lord, with the Prophet, "Lord, who shall dwell in Your tent, or who shall rest upon Your holy mountain" (Ps. 14:1)?

After this question, brothers and sisters, let us listen to the Lord as He answers and shows us the way to that tent, saying, "The one Who walks without stain and practices justice; who speaks truth from his heart; who has not used his tongue for deceit; who has done no evil to his neighbor; who has given no place to slander against his neighbor." This is the one who, under any temptation from the malicious devil, has brought him to naught (Ps. 14:4) by casting him and his temptation from the sight of his heart; and who has laid hold of his thoughts while they were still young and dashed them against Christ (Ps. 136:9). It is they who, fearing the Lord (Ps. 14:4), do not pride themselves on their good observance; but, convinced that the good which is in them cannot come from themselves and must be from the Lord, glorify the Lord's work in them (Ps. 14:4), using the words of the Prophet, "Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to Your name give the glory" (Ps. 113, 2nd part:1).

Thus also the Apostle Paul attributed nothing of the success of his preaching to himself,
but said, "By the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). And again he says, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord" (2 Cor. 10:17).

Hence the Lord says in the Gospel, "Whoever listens to these words of Mine and acts upon them, I will liken to a wise person who built a house on rock. The floods came,
the winds blew and beat against that house, and it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock" (Matt. 7:24-25).

Having given us these assurances, the Lord is waiting every day for us to respond by our deeds to His holy admonitions. And the days of this life are lengthened and a truce granted us for this very reason, that we may amend our evil ways. As the Apostle says, "Do you not know that God's patience is inviting you to repent" (Rom. 2:4)?

For the merciful Lord tells us, "I desire not the death of the sinner, but that the sinner should be converted and live" (Ezech. 33:11).

So, brothers and sisters, we have asked the Lord who is to dwell in His tent,
and we have heard His commands to anyone who would dwell there; it remains for us to fulfill those duties. Therefore we must prepare our hearts and our bodies to do battle under the holy obedience of His commands; and let us ask God that He be pleased to give us the help of His grace for anything which our nature finds hardly possible. And if we want to escape the pains of hell and attain life everlasting, then, while there is still time, while we are still in the body and are able to fulfil all these things
by the light of this life, we must hasten to do now what will profit us for eternity.

And so we are going to establish a school for the service of the Lord. In founding it we hope to introduce nothing harsh or burdensome. But if a certain strictness results from the dictates of equity for the amendment of vices or the preservation of charity, do not be at once dismayed and fly from the way of salvation, whose entrance cannot but be narrow (Matt. 7:14). For as we advance in the religious life and in faith,  our hearts expand and we run the way of God's commandments with unspeakable sweetness of love (Ps. 118:32).

Thus, never departing from His school, but persevering in the monastery according to His teaching until death, we may by patience share in the sufferings of Christ (1 Peter 4:13) and deserve to have a share also in His kingdom.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/rule_st_benedict_e.htm#_Toc74181906
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 11:45:11 AM by Sinner Servant » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 12:04:59 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 02:10:58 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
For that Catholic view of monasticism, I think you can once again read the rule of St. Benedict.
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 02:25:41 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
For that Catholic view of monasticism, I think you can once again read the rule of St. Benedict.

Papist,

Would you agree that ascesis in the West seems to have largely died out since Vatican II? what I mean to say is that renunciation of the World doesn't seem to be the Catholic goal anymore.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:26:26 PM by ignatius » Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 04:16:22 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
For that Catholic view of monasticism, I think you can once again read the rule of St. Benedict.

Papist,

Would you agree that ascesis in the West seems to have largely died out since Vatican II? what I mean to say is that renunciation of the World doesn't seem to be the Catholic goal anymore.
I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

Indeed, after the Second Vatican Council, the Church was assaulted by the modernist error, and while our teachings did not fall into heresy, often our practices became weaker. Yes some religious gave up their vocations. Some became more liberal. However, I see these people as a daying breed. Those orders that are part of the new revival or orthodoxy are the orders that are growing and bursting at the seem with vocations. One great exmaple of this growth is the mendicant order, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. They lives lives of great poverty, chastity, and Obedience. Their lives are lives of self denial and service to the poor. Never have I seen such joyful men; never have I seen such happy men. One of the men from this order, Fr. Robert, passed away last year and he was a very dear friend of mine. His passing brought me tears, but also joy to know that he was in Heaven. His holiness and rejection of worldy things was observed by all he came into contact with and his shinning example of love and holiness inspired many who knew him to repentance, penance, and love of God. This man, I honor as a true saint and the Russian Cross he gave me, I keep as relic. So is there self denial and holiness still in the religious orders of the Catholic Church? YES THERE IS!
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 09:10:58 PM »

I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

I will mention another group who I would say is an example of renunciation in the Roman Catholic Church. Have you seen the documentary called Into Great Silence? It shows the lives of Carthusian monks in France. It was pretty interesting. I guess they are a part of an Order of St. Bruno which I've never heard of. They live in complete silence which is only broken while singing in church. They are pretty shut off from the outside world and are almost like hermits. I find this group the most interesting of the Catholic monastic orders. I read today that their rule is still as strongly enforced in its monasteries as it always has been.
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ignatius
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 09:44:36 PM »


I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

Indeed, after the Second Vatican Council, the Church was assaulted by the modernist error, and while our teachings did not fall into heresy, often our practices became weaker. Yes some religious gave up their vocations. Some became more liberal. However, I see these people as a daying breed. Those orders that are part of the new revival or orthodoxy are the orders that are growing and bursting at the seem with vocations. One great exmaple of this growth is the mendicant order, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. They lives lives of great poverty, chastity, and Obedience. Their lives are lives of self denial and service to the poor. Never have I seen such joyful men; never have I seen such happy men. One of the men from this order, Fr. Robert, passed away last year and he was a very dear friend of mine. His passing brought me tears, but also joy to know that he was in Heaven. His holiness and rejection of worldy things was observed by all he came into contact with and his shinning example of love and holiness inspired many who knew him to repentance, penance, and love of God. This man, I honor as a true saint and the Russian Cross he gave me, I keep as relic. So is there self denial and holiness still in the religious orders of the Catholic Church? YES THERE IS!

Actually, my question wasn't directed toward Religious but the laity in the Pews and the instruction they receive from the Parish Priests. We have a ministry called Christ Renews His Parish... it's a lay group that leads retreats for other lay parishioners and it's one of the most 'Protestant' expressions of spirituality I've seen within the Catholic Church. There is simply no Classic Catholic Spirituality taught and it's very disappointing because there is a very robust Ascetic Theology within Western Tradition and it's basically ignored by the majority of 'teachers' in Catholicism.

This is largely what has been drawing Catholics to Orthodox. It's not the polemics because those are frankly just as shallow and boneheaded as anything I've heard from Protestants but the vibrant spirituality is powerful. This has been the second year I've had an Orthodox Priest over my house for the Blessing of the House and I've attended many lectures and study sessions with his Orthodox community and I hate to say it but I am far more 'at home' among them than I am at my own Catholic Parish. When I speak about the Saints among Catholic Priests and Deacons as well as Catholics at my Catholic Parish they just stare at me like I'm some kind of weird anomaly. Among the Orthodox I hear 'wisdom' and I see 'crossing' and they share with me teachers in the East who share our Western Saints ascetic disciplines.

It is a real shame to say that American Catholic to a very extent has become 'Protestant'. Now I'm sure there are some 'orthodox' Religious Orders who by and large have be taught well by those who have not embraced whatever Spirit of the Age that invaded the Catholic Church after Vatican II.

It's nice to meet individual Catholics who hold on to 'orthodoxy' but honestly 'we' are by and large the exception not the rule and it's really disappointing. As my wife and I begin to bring another little life into this world the more I find myself weary of trying to keep orthodox Catholicism alive in my own little bubble. I wonder if it isn't far better for me to enter into a community were I can be nourished and fed and were sharing the lives of the Saints is welcomed and not avoided as I find in most Catholic circles.

My daughter crosses herself in the Orthodox fashion and she's drank holy water since she could walk. Our home is covered with icons blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest and I recently received a necklace of Our Lady for my wife to wear which I am having Blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest. Why? Because he's a 'real' Priest and even without the Sacraments I find myself far more nourished there than I do at my own Catholic Church were I receive the Sacraments almost every weekend.

For sure I chaff at poorly thought out Orthodox Polemics and numerous ex-Catholic Apologetics but I honestly find the 'real' Orthodox Church 'on the ground' far more nourishing than the 'real' Catholic Church 'on the ground'.

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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 10:40:45 PM »

Check out the Carmelite Monks of Wyoming, a most worthy group...

http://www.carmelitemonks.org/index.html
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 10:59:43 PM »


I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

Indeed, after the Second Vatican Council, the Church was assaulted by the modernist error, and while our teachings did not fall into heresy, often our practices became weaker. Yes some religious gave up their vocations. Some became more liberal. However, I see these people as a daying breed. Those orders that are part of the new revival or orthodoxy are the orders that are growing and bursting at the seem with vocations. One great exmaple of this growth is the mendicant order, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. They lives lives of great poverty, chastity, and Obedience. Their lives are lives of self denial and service to the poor. Never have I seen such joyful men; never have I seen such happy men. One of the men from this order, Fr. Robert, passed away last year and he was a very dear friend of mine. His passing brought me tears, but also joy to know that he was in Heaven. His holiness and rejection of worldy things was observed by all he came into contact with and his shinning example of love and holiness inspired many who knew him to repentance, penance, and love of God. This man, I honor as a true saint and the Russian Cross he gave me, I keep as relic. So is there self denial and holiness still in the religious orders of the Catholic Church? YES THERE IS!

Actually, my question wasn't directed toward Religious but the laity in the Pews and the instruction they receive from the Parish Priests. We have a ministry called Christ Renews His Parish... it's a lay group that leads retreats for other lay parishioners and it's one of the most 'Protestant' expressions of spirituality I've seen within the Catholic Church. There is simply no Classic Catholic Spirituality taught and it's very disappointing because there is a very robust Ascetic Theology within Western Tradition and it's basically ignored by the majority of 'teachers' in Catholicism.

This is largely what has been drawing Catholics to Orthodox. It's not the polemics because those are frankly just as shallow and boneheaded as anything I've heard from Protestants but the vibrant spirituality is powerful. This has been the second year I've had an Orthodox Priest over my house for the Blessing of the House and I've attended many lectures and study sessions with his Orthodox community and I hate to say it but I am far more 'at home' among them than I am at my own Catholic Parish. When I speak about the Saints among Catholic Priests and Deacons as well as Catholics at my Catholic Parish they just stare at me like I'm some kind of weird anomaly. Among the Orthodox I hear 'wisdom' and I see 'crossing' and they share with me teachers in the East who share our Western Saints ascetic disciplines.

It is a real shame to say that American Catholic to a very extent has become 'Protestant'. Now I'm sure there are some 'orthodox' Religious Orders who by and large have be taught well by those who have not embraced whatever Spirit of the Age that invaded the Catholic Church after Vatican II.

It's nice to meet individual Catholics who hold on to 'orthodoxy' but honestly 'we' are by and large the exception not the rule and it's really disappointing. As my wife and I begin to bring another little life into this world the more I find myself weary of trying to keep orthodox Catholicism alive in my own little bubble. I wonder if it isn't far better for me to enter into a community were I can be nourished and fed and were sharing the lives of the Saints is welcomed and not avoided as I find in most Catholic circles.

My daughter crosses herself in the Orthodox fashion and she's drank holy water since she could walk. Our home is covered with icons blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest and I recently received a necklace of Our Lady for my wife to wear which I am having Blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest. Why? Because he's a 'real' Priest and even without the Sacraments I find myself far more nourished there than I do at my own Catholic Church were I receive the Sacraments almost every weekend.

For sure I chaff at poorly thought out Orthodox Polemics and numerous ex-Catholic Apologetics but I honestly find the 'real' Orthodox Church 'on the ground' far more nourishing than the 'real' Catholic Church 'on the ground'.



So you would rather quit than stand and fight for being the example of a true catholic among more modernist ones?
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 11:06:39 PM »

Let me show you what catholicism in my city can do to venerate the Virgin Mary the Theotokos, our mother, in a city of 4 million people: (and yet it is not Guadalupe) (lit your faith)



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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 11:09:56 PM »

I will mention another group who I would say is an example of renunciation in the Roman Catholic Church. Have you seen the documentary called Into Great Silence? It shows the lives of Carthusian monks in France. It was pretty interesting. I guess they are a part of an Order of St. Bruno which I've never heard of. They live in complete silence which is only broken while singing in church. They are pretty shut off from the outside world and are almost like hermits. I find this group the most interesting of the Catholic monastic orders. I read today that their rule is still as strongly enforced in its monasteries as it always has been.

I actually have this movie sitting right in front of me as I type this.  I got it off of Netflix and I've watched about the first thirty minutes so far (it's three hours!).  I think I'm really going to enjoy it.
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 11:51:46 PM »

I will mention another group who I would say is an example of renunciation in the Roman Catholic Church. Have you seen the documentary called Into Great Silence? It shows the lives of Carthusian monks in France. It was pretty interesting. I guess they are a part of an Order of St. Bruno which I've never heard of. They live in complete silence which is only broken while singing in church. They are pretty shut off from the outside world and are almost like hermits. I find this group the most interesting of the Catholic monastic orders. I read today that their rule is still as strongly enforced in its monasteries as it always has been.

I actually have this movie sitting right in front of me as I type this.  I got it off of Netflix and I've watched about the first thirty minutes so far (it's three hours!).  I think I'm really going to enjoy it.

I liked it. I did watch it in shifts because of the length.
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2010, 12:37:23 AM »

So you would rather quit than stand and fight for being the example of a true catholic among more modernist ones?

Grace and Peace Alonso,

When the modernists are everywhere I honestly feel like I am a Church of one not that I am someone special or anything like that but I simply don't see 'any' ascesis in the North American Catholic Church. The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition. I welcome a Catholic Church like that but I honestly don't know if I will be among them. I might be a 'better' Catholic a 'better' Christian in Orthodoxy.

I don't say this to threaten your devotion Alonso. I don't mean it to insult Papist. I just say what I am experiencing.
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 12:56:59 AM »

The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition.

I have only seen the fiercest of devotion from the Latin American Roman Catholics, and I greatly respect these people and their piety.
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 01:04:41 AM »

So you would rather quit than stand and fight for being the example of a true catholic among more modernist ones?

Grace and Peace Alonso,

When the modernists are everywhere I honestly feel like I am a Church of one not that I am someone special or anything like that but I simply don't see 'any' ascesis in the North American Catholic Church. The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition. I welcome a Catholic Church like that but I honestly don't know if I will be among them. I might be a 'better' Catholic a 'better' Christian in Orthodoxy.

I don't say this to threaten your devotion Alonso. I don't mean it to insult Papist. I just say what I am experiencing.


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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 01:24:00 AM »

So you would rather quit than stand and fight for being the example of a true catholic among more modernist ones?

Grace and Peace Alonso,

When the modernists are everywhere I honestly feel like I am a Church of one not that I am someone special or anything like that but I simply don't see 'any' ascesis in the North American Catholic Church. The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition. I welcome a Catholic Church like that but I honestly don't know if I will be among them. I might be a 'better' Catholic a 'better' Christian in Orthodoxy.

I don't say this to threaten your devotion Alonso. I don't mean it to insult Papist. I just say what I am experiencing.

Remember that Faith is not only about feelings, it is also about obedience, Our Lord obey his Father, and by his obedience, He saved us, It is by obedience that the apostles gave us the sacraments.
Now, about your intraquility respecting the church, ¿Do you think that St Francis of Asisi felt quite content with the church he met? Not at all, but ¿did he leave the church or did he transform it?
I ask you not to go the easy way, quitting the ship, but to go the hard way, the one that really closes you to sainthood as St Francis did. The same that St Ignatius of Loyola took, transforming the church exalting again what it needs to be exalted. Other way you may pass as one who left the church instead of one who worked for her for Our Lord’s Major Glory.
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2010, 01:32:10 AM »

The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition.

I have only seen the fiercest of devotion from the Latin American Roman Catholics, and I greatly respect these people and their piety.
¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2010, 12:03:58 PM »

I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

I will mention another group who I would say is an example of renunciation in the Roman Catholic Church. Have you seen the documentary called Into Great Silence? It shows the lives of Carthusian monks in France. It was pretty interesting. I guess they are a part of an Order of St. Bruno which I've never heard of. They live in complete silence which is only broken while singing in church. They are pretty shut off from the outside world and are almost like hermits. I find this group the most interesting of the Catholic monastic orders. I read today that their rule is still as strongly enforced in its monasteries as it always has been.
Beautiful group of men. I recently read a book about their order.
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2010, 12:10:10 PM »


I think it depends on where you look. There is a wonderful monastery out here in New Mexico called Christ in the Desert, where the monks live lives of great simplicity and their example has helped inspire many people to repentance and conversion. Are they living a life in which they renounce the world? Abosolutely!
Also, in Santa Fe, NM there is a cloister of Carmelite Nuns. They are of course cloisterd, and practice great self deprivation and penance. They are a shinning example of the renunciation of the world to which both religious and laymen are called.

Indeed, after the Second Vatican Council, the Church was assaulted by the modernist error, and while our teachings did not fall into heresy, often our practices became weaker. Yes some religious gave up their vocations. Some became more liberal. However, I see these people as a daying breed. Those orders that are part of the new revival or orthodoxy are the orders that are growing and bursting at the seem with vocations. One great exmaple of this growth is the mendicant order, The Franciscan Friars of the Renewal. They lives lives of great poverty, chastity, and Obedience. Their lives are lives of self denial and service to the poor. Never have I seen such joyful men; never have I seen such happy men. One of the men from this order, Fr. Robert, passed away last year and he was a very dear friend of mine. His passing brought me tears, but also joy to know that he was in Heaven. His holiness and rejection of worldy things was observed by all he came into contact with and his shinning example of love and holiness inspired many who knew him to repentance, penance, and love of God. This man, I honor as a true saint and the Russian Cross he gave me, I keep as relic. So is there self denial and holiness still in the religious orders of the Catholic Church? YES THERE IS!

Actually, my question wasn't directed toward Religious but the laity in the Pews and the instruction they receive from the Parish Priests. We have a ministry called Christ Renews His Parish... it's a lay group that leads retreats for other lay parishioners and it's one of the most 'Protestant' expressions of spirituality I've seen within the Catholic Church. There is simply no Classic Catholic Spirituality taught and it's very disappointing because there is a very robust Ascetic Theology within Western Tradition and it's basically ignored by the majority of 'teachers' in Catholicism.

This is largely what has been drawing Catholics to Orthodox. It's not the polemics because those are frankly just as shallow and boneheaded as anything I've heard from Protestants but the vibrant spirituality is powerful. This has been the second year I've had an Orthodox Priest over my house for the Blessing of the House and I've attended many lectures and study sessions with his Orthodox community and I hate to say it but I am far more 'at home' among them than I am at my own Catholic Parish. When I speak about the Saints among Catholic Priests and Deacons as well as Catholics at my Catholic Parish they just stare at me like I'm some kind of weird anomaly. Among the Orthodox I hear 'wisdom' and I see 'crossing' and they share with me teachers in the East who share our Western Saints ascetic disciplines.

It is a real shame to say that American Catholic to a very extent has become 'Protestant'. Now I'm sure there are some 'orthodox' Religious Orders who by and large have be taught well by those who have not embraced whatever Spirit of the Age that invaded the Catholic Church after Vatican II.

It's nice to meet individual Catholics who hold on to 'orthodoxy' but honestly 'we' are by and large the exception not the rule and it's really disappointing. As my wife and I begin to bring another little life into this world the more I find myself weary of trying to keep orthodox Catholicism alive in my own little bubble. I wonder if it isn't far better for me to enter into a community were I can be nourished and fed and were sharing the lives of the Saints is welcomed and not avoided as I find in most Catholic circles.

My daughter crosses herself in the Orthodox fashion and she's drank holy water since she could walk. Our home is covered with icons blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest and I recently received a necklace of Our Lady for my wife to wear which I am having Blessed by my Orthodox Parish Priest. Why? Because he's a 'real' Priest and even without the Sacraments I find myself far more nourished there than I do at my own Catholic Church were I receive the Sacraments almost every weekend.

For sure I chaff at poorly thought out Orthodox Polemics and numerous ex-Catholic Apologetics but I honestly find the 'real' Orthodox Church 'on the ground' far more nourishing than the 'real' Catholic Church 'on the ground'.


I guess this idea of "not rejecting the world" is not my experience at all. My parish is very Catholic. The priests call us to live lives of traditional Catholic Spirituality, in keeping with the teachings of the Church and the experience of the Saints.
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2010, 02:21:17 PM »

I actually have this movie sitting right in front of me as I type this.  I got it off of Netflix and I've watched about the first thirty minutes so far (it's three hours!).  I think I'm really going to enjoy it.

I just wanted to say that I finished the movie last night and I really enjoyed it.  I recommend it to anyone with an interest in Western monasticism.  It seemed like all of these monks had Orthodox icons in their cells, and their were Orthodox icons to the right and left of the altar as well.
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2010, 03:01:45 PM »

I actually have this movie sitting right in front of me as I type this.  I got it off of Netflix and I've watched about the first thirty minutes so far (it's three hours!).  I think I'm really going to enjoy it.

I just wanted to say that I finished the movie last night and I really enjoyed it.  I recommend it to anyone with an interest in Western monasticism.  It seemed like all of these monks had Orthodox icons in their cells, and their were Orthodox icons to the right and left of the altar as well.
Very Cool! I will have to watch this.
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2010, 03:08:43 PM »

Let me show you what catholicism in my city can do to venerate the Virgin Mary the Theotokos, our mother, in a city of 4 million people: (and yet it is not Guadalupe) (lit your faith)

A street procession in Russia to honour the Tikhvin icon of the holy Mother of God

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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2010, 03:20:37 PM »

Let me show you what catholicism in my city can do to venerate the Virgin Mary the Theotokos, our mother, in a city of 4 million people: (and yet it is not Guadalupe) (lit your faith)


Let us show you what Orthodoxy can do to venerate the Mother of God.

Here is another procession to honour another icon of the Mother of God in Russia.  This is the Kursk Icon.  This was in in September last year.



The icon of the Mother of God which these hundreds of thousands of people have come to venerate is the blue one in centre picture

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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2010, 03:22:31 PM »

To the two gentlemen that are posting pics, why are you guys engaging in a "look how much more we honor Mary than  you" game. Its actually silly.
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2010, 03:35:43 PM »

And... the other side of veneration, apart from the great street processions.   Deep quiet prayer

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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2010, 03:38:45 PM »

To the two gentlemen that are posting pics, why are you guys engaging in a "look how much more we honor Mary than  you" game. Its actually silly.

I think the pictures are beautiful.  In a world which is grey and faithless it is wonderful to see this love for the Mother of God, in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

The pictures uplift my heart more than the thousands of words we exchange on the forum.
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2010, 03:44:38 PM »

Well Here we go.

The seminary students walking to The Basilica of Zapopan in GDL. October 12th 2009

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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2010, 03:46:16 PM »

Well Here we go.

The seminary students walking to The Basilica of Zapopan in GDL.


Alonso, many in the United States like to characterize the Catholicism in Mexico as sort of a "Folk Catholicism" mixed with superstion and paganism. I know this to be false, for the most part, but what is the true status of Catholicism in Mexico?
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2010, 03:47:13 PM »

Dancers going ahead

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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2010, 03:51:52 PM »

Well Here we go.

The seminary students walking to The Basilica of Zapopan in GDL.


Alonso, many in the United States like to characterize the Catholicism in Mexico as sort of a "Folk Catholicism" mixed with superstion and paganism. I know this to be false, for the most part, but what is the true status of Catholicism in Mexico?

Catholicism in Mexico is only catholicism, no superstition but faith. superstition is very reduced, and only those who come to look for it they find it, In my house, that is also yours, I have very few Portraits, one of our Lord of Mercy, and other two of the virgin Mary. Do you consider that to be a superstition?
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2010, 03:53:32 PM »

Franciscan nouns awaiting the pass of Mary image.

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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2010, 03:54:39 PM »

The only hope is that Latin America Immigrates will reconstitute the Catholic Tradition.

I have only seen the fiercest of devotion from the Latin American Roman Catholics, and I greatly respect these people and their piety.
¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

I would say that devotion comes from faith.
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2010, 03:55:04 PM »

Music in the feast:

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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2010, 03:57:21 PM »

Franciscan brothers awaiting Our Lady:

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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2010, 03:59:12 PM »

Nocturn Eucharistical Adorators walking before Our Lady:

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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2010, 04:01:38 PM »

Main group of the march, just before Our Lady

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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2010, 04:03:52 PM »

WE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH:

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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 04:06:33 PM »

The Car of Our Lady:

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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2010, 04:10:16 PM »

After 8km of walking, we celebrate the Sacred Liturgy:

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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2010, 04:11:44 PM »

The liturgy:

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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2010, 04:14:26 PM »

After Sacred Liturgy, Our Lady is taken to inside her Sanctuary, ruled by Franciscan Brothers who live in the convent aside the Basilica:

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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2010, 04:16:56 PM »

The Basilica:

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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2010, 04:18:08 PM »

The place of Our Lady:

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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2010, 04:19:42 PM »

The Cathedral from where our Lady departs to her Basilica.

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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 04:39:29 PM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Father,

Is there anything in Orthodoxy that would prohibit such things from happening, Father? I mean outside of reverence and good taste?
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Father,

Is there anything in Orthodoxy that would prohibit such things from happening, Father? I mean outside of reverence and good taste?

I imagine that any bishop who permitted such things would find himself out of a job.   His brother bishops would depose him and the Synod would appoint some temporary episcopal oversight for the diocese until a new bishop were chosen.
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 04:55:05 PM »


I imagine that any bishop who permitted such things would find himself out of a job. His brother bishops would depose him and the Synod would appoint some temporary episcopal oversight for the diocese until a new bishop were chosen.

Sounds effective. I can see how this might work in our modern day of super fast information but how would this had worked in the early Church or during the times after the fall of Rome? As I understand it, at least in the Western Church, it sank into much abuse 'everywhere' before the rise of the Cluniac Abbots in the Monasteries cleaned them up. That reform, of course, lead to the rise of Papal Authority... the rest is history.
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 05:04:01 PM »

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2010, 05:21:04 PM »

I cannot see those videos from where I am now, but if they are what I am imaging you know the answer, That is not catholic teaching,  and if some priest have don such stupid sacrileg thinks, Be anathema. But that doesn't makes me to lose my faith, but to point a Bad priest to my Bishop, Cardinal Juan Sandoval Iñiguez, who has a laud voice inside catholic church to point that blasfemy practice out of church.

I have shown you the true Catholic Church, a true catholic feast, and you come up with easy disqualification, that is playing dirt I would say. And only shows me that your proselitism is based on bad catholics, rather in the comparison of the best orthodoxy has and the Best Catholicism Has.
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 05:25:15 PM »

There are some very nice buildings in Catholicism. Unfortunately, the average Catholic church interior where I live looks more suited for a corporate presentation or a lecture. I feel really bad for traditionalist Catholics when I see them getting excited over basic things like communion rails, reredoses, and the odd bit of decent artwork... it speaks of the pervasive devastation that has taken hold of the religion, whence I doubt it will ever recover.  
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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2010, 05:25:32 PM »

Once more, this is the real Catholic Church. The Real Latin.









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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2010, 05:51:10 PM »

This is my Bishop: (God Bless Him)

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 06:37:31 PM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 06:47:15 PM »

I didn't realized that I haven't added a good picture of Our Lady of Zapopan,
 the motive of our joy in Guadalajara, Here she is:


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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2010, 06:51:19 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2010, 07:23:27 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

In Guadalajara, the liturgy has changed from latin to spanish, songs and choruses are in spanish, but priest are strongly comanded to follow the misal. not improvisations are allowed which may damage the celebration. Our Bishop is quite observant of the priests.
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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2010, 07:24:37 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it.

Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it. The things you have posted are extremely rare abuses. Heartbreaking yes, but extremely rare. Are they even occuring in cannonical Catholic Churches?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 07:29:03 PM by Papist » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2010, 07:26:38 PM »

Well Here we go.

The seminary students walking to The Basilica of Zapopan in GDL.


Alonso, many in the United States like to characterize the Catholicism in Mexico as sort of a "Folk Catholicism" mixed with superstion and paganism. I know this to be false, for the most part, but what is the true status of Catholicism in Mexico?

Catholicism in Mexico is only catholicism, no superstition but faith. superstition is very reduced, and only those who come to look for it they find it, In my house, that is also yours, I have very few Portraits, one of our Lord of Mercy, and other two of the virgin Mary. Do you consider that to be a superstition?
Of course not. I love images of our Lord and Lady. I was just asking about things I have heard. I am glad that what I have heard is simply a mischaracterization; I actually suspected as much.
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« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2010, 07:34:21 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it.

Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it. The things you have posted are extremely rare abuses. Heartbreaking yes, but extremely rare. Are they even occuring in cannonical Catholic Churches?

In the doleful words of Pope Benedict he is not speaking of isolated and rare abuses but of a breakdown and corruption of the Mass which pervades the Catholic world.
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« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2010, 07:39:49 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it.

Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it. The things you have posted are extremely rare abuses. Heartbreaking yes, but extremely rare. Are they even occuring in cannonical Catholic Churches?

In the doleful words of Pope Benedict he is not speaking of isolated and rare abuses but of a breakdown and corruption of the Mass which pervades the Catholic world.

The Mass is still the Mass. Christ still becomes present in the Blessed Sacrament, and the people still recieve the Life Giving Mysteries. Again, the kinds of abuses you are talking about are rare where I live.
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« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2010, 08:10:21 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it.

Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it. The things you have posted are extremely rare abuses. Heartbreaking yes, but extremely rare. Are they even occuring in cannonical Catholic Churches?

In the doleful words of Pope Benedict he is not speaking of isolated and rare abuses but of a breakdown and corruption of the Mass which pervades the Catholic world.

The Mass is still the Mass. Christ still becomes present in the Blessed Sacrament, and the people still recieve the Life Giving Mysteries. Again, the kinds of abuses you are talking about are rare where I live.
My friend, these abuses are more common than you think. Their continued existence is, I'm sorry to say, an illustration of either lack of episcopal oversight, or, where right-minded bishops have spoken out against such things, it is not always the case that such deviations are removed. Two cases come to mind, both involving Abp Michael Sheehan of Santa Fe:

1. The 2001 exhibition of "art" which featured a blasphemous, bikini-clad version of Our Lady of Guadelupe, which the good archbishop succeeded in shutting down, with the help of the local folks who were outraged at such desecration. All credit to His Grace, and his flock.

2. The promotion and sale of blasphemous "icons" painted by a certain Franciscan friar (name supplied on request) through an online store. This message appeared on the said website circa 2007, undersigned by the artist:

"In deference to the criticism of Michael Sheehan, Archbishop of Santa Fe, these ten images will no longer be distributed by the Order of Friars Minor. [our store] will continue to sell these images until the inventory has been depleted.

All well and good. In the last couple of years, this caveat has quietly disappeared from that webpage, and these disgraceful images are still freely for sale.

I've often wondered how the actions of a bishop to defend his faith and that of his flock are sometimes successful, other times not. Ideas, anyone?



 
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« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2010, 08:22:48 PM »

[Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA

Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it.

Given the size of the Catholic Church (1 billion) is it really reasonable to expect that no abuses take place?  Yes more heads should roll that the above takes place at all, but I don't think the Church was ever abuse free.

Pope Benedict believes that it is the Mass which poses the greatest threat to Catholicism.  It has become the Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Catholic Church today..


"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Its not the Mass that is the problem but abuses of it. The things you have posted are extremely rare abuses. Heartbreaking yes, but extremely rare. Are they even occuring in cannonical Catholic Churches?

In the doleful words of Pope Benedict he is not speaking of isolated and rare abuses but of a breakdown and corruption of the Mass which pervades the Catholic world.

The Mass is still the Mass. Christ still becomes present in the Blessed Sacrament, and the people still recieve the Life Giving Mysteries. Again, the kinds of abuses you are talking about are rare where I live.
My friend, these abuses are more common than you think. Their continued existence is, I'm sorry to say, an illustration of either lack of episcopal oversight, or, where right-minded bishops have spoken out against such things, it is not always the case that such deviations are removed. Two cases come to mind, both involving Abp Michael Sheehan of Santa Fe:

1. The 2001 exhibition of "art" which featured a blasphemous, bikini-clad version of Our Lady of Guadelupe, which the good archbishop succeeded in shutting down, with the help of the local folks who were outraged at such desecration. All credit to His Grace, and his flock.

2. The promotion and sale of blasphemous "icons" painted by a certain Franciscan friar (name supplied on request) through an online store. This message appeared on the said website circa 2007, undersigned by the artist:

"In deference to the criticism of Michael Sheehan, Archbishop of Santa Fe, these ten images will no longer be distributed by the Order of Friars Minor. [our store] will continue to sell these images until the inventory has been depleted.

All well and good. In the last couple of years, this caveat has quietly disappeared from that webpage, and these disgraceful images are still freely for sale.

I've often wondered how the actions of a bishop to defend his faith and that of his flock are sometimes successful, other times not. Ideas, anyone?



 
I am not sure how obedient every Catholic is to their Bishop but I would like to point out that his Exellency, Archbishop Michael Sheehan happens to be my bishop.
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2010, 12:18:59 AM »

Ok I have seen the video, And now I see the true of this, Priest should be careful of this.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2010, 12:29:17 AM »

Ok I have seen the video, And now I see the true of this, Priest should be careful of this.


To be fair, Alonso, I have never attended such a scandalous Mass but the fact that Catholic Bishops in my country disrespect our Sacred Traditions and act so irreverently toward God and the Heavenly Host (who are present at the Mass) cuts me to the quick. I am scandalized by such things and it makes me ashamed to be Catholic. It demonstrates such a lack of piety and simple awareness of the act of the Sacred Mass that I am shocked and sickened.

I know several Catholic immigrates who came to America to work and send money home to their families. The go to Mass and they are shocked at how irreverent things are handled. I see no teaching of virtue, Fear of God, and reverence.

What is one family to do? How can I raise my children to be Faithful? It is a worry for me because I want my Children to be Faithful and to seek the good Pleasure of God. It is up hill and very hard to take.

I don't want you to question good sound Holy Tradition but I'm only telling you that it is very hard to find. Western Culture 'eats' devotions up and spits them out. I see the breakdown even among Orthodoxy but they are largely new in the West and only recently coming into the mainstream but they are devout and I respect that.
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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2010, 12:45:48 AM »

Ok I have seen the video, And now I see the true of this, Priest should be careful of this.


To be fair, Alonso, I have never attended such a scandalous Mass but the fact that Catholic Bishops in my country disrespect our Sacred Traditions and act so irreverently toward God and the Heavenly Host (who are present at the Mass) cuts me to the quick. I am scandalized by such things and it makes me ashamed to be Catholic. It demonstrates such a lack of piety and simple awareness of the act of the Sacred Mass that I am shocked and sickened.

I know several Catholic immigrates who came to America to work and send money home to their families. The go to Mass and they are shocked at how irreverent things are handled. I see no teaching of virtue, Fear of God, and reverence.

What is one family to do? How can I raise my children to be Faithful? It is a worry for me because I want my Children to be Faithful and to seek the good Pleasure of God. It is up hill and very hard to take.

I don't want you to question good sound Holy Tradition but I'm only telling you that it is very hard to find. Western Culture 'eats' devotions up and spits them out. I see the breakdown even among Orthodoxy but they are largely new in the West and only recently coming into the mainstream but they are devout and I respect that.

Ok I tell you again, We in Mexico are part of Latin Catholicism,  we know about critics towards devotion, they are cynics but the problem in USA is that catholics listen to them added to the fact that they are  attacked from everywhere and they are losing confidence. That is what I can see, Am I right?
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« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2010, 12:51:29 AM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.
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« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2010, 12:52:29 AM »

Ok I tell you again, We in Mexico are part of Latin Catholicism,  we know about critics towards devotion, they are cynics but the problem in USA is that catholics listen to them added to the fact that they are  attacked from everywhere and they are losing confidence. That is what I can see, Am I right?

Yes that is correct. I have seen only 'one' procession in my life except for the little ones when we go outside of the Parish and then right back in... that is not a procession to me.

Orthodoxy keeps it's Holy Tradition... we do not. If we did maybe we would not be so malnourished?
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« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2010, 12:54:18 AM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

I am not a Deacon or a Priest. I recognize Saintliness but I am not a Saint. I am just as bad as the next but I don't want to be.
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« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2010, 01:04:25 AM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

I am not a Deacon or a Priest. I recognize Saintliness but I am not a Saint. I am just as bad as the next but I don't want to be.

It doesn´t matter if you are part of clergy or not, Faith is not a matter of shoping, as going to Wall-Mart or K-Mart, I feel that consumism culture had made you to think that faith is something one can spare one way or another with no consecuences, You are called to be saint, ¿Don´t you know it?

Once your child grow up, they will feel set apart from their real roots, and the only guy reponsible for that, will be you. You may say you tryed to do the best for them, ¿would that givethem back their roots?
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« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2010, 01:08:40 AM »

I am Trying to lit your faith sharing with you my testimony of faith, and showing you that Catholicism after Vatican II is as alive as it was before, but it seems to me that long ago you give up, and my attempts are sterile
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« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2010, 01:31:42 AM »

I am not sure how obedient every Catholic is to their Bishop but I would like to point out that his Exellency, Archbishop Michael Sheehan happens to be my bishop.

This is precisely why I posted the above examples, Papist. I know he is your bishop, and he has indeed done much good, as I have described. Yet, how is it that His Excellency's quite proper, necessary and correct directive has been comprehensively ignored by not only the artist concerned, but by the outlet which promotes and sells his wares? In other words, how is it possible that such public and sustained transgressions can "fall through the cracks" and continue to be promulgated, as it were?  Huh Huh
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« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2010, 01:25:13 PM »

I am Trying to lit your faith sharing with you my testimony of faith, and showing you that Catholicism after Vatican II is as alive as it was before, but it seems to me that long ago you give up, and my attempts are sterile

Emphasis added, I think you mean "light" perhaps?

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« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2010, 02:32:54 PM »

Ok I tell you again, We in Mexico are part of Latin Catholicism,  we know about critics towards devotion, they are cynics but the problem in USA is that catholics listen to them added to the fact that they are  attacked from everywhere and they are losing confidence. That is what I can see, Am I right?

Yes that is correct. I have seen only 'one' procession in my life except for the little ones when we go outside of the Parish and then right back in... that is not a procession to me.

Orthodoxy keeps it's Holy Tradition... we do not. If we did maybe we would not be so malnourished?
That's interesting. We have a beautiful Corpus Cristi procession at my parish. We process the Eucharist out of the Church, through the local neighborhood and back into the Church.
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« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2010, 02:37:14 PM »

I am not sure how obedient every Catholic is to their Bishop but I would like to point out that his Exellency, Archbishop Michael Sheehan happens to be my bishop.

This is precisely why I posted the above examples, Papist. I know he is your bishop, and he has indeed done much good, as I have described. Yet, how is it that His Excellency's quite proper, necessary and correct directive has been comprehensively ignored by not only the artist concerned, but by the outlet which promotes and sells his wares? In other words, how is it possible that such public and sustained transgressions can "fall through the cracks" and continue to be promulgated, as it were?  Huh Huh
I agree that it is a terrible sadness and scandal, and for as much good as His Excellency has done, I wish he would do more. I think because the Catholic Church is so large and right in the forefront of media attention, some of our Bishops do not act as powerfully as they should. This is a great sadness. Further, because the Catholic Church is so large in the United states with many competing religions, with a full frontal attack of secularism in the USA, there are many Catholics who are only culturally so and thus don't listen to their bishops. But I have to say that in the circles in which I travel, there is true orthodoxy among many Catholics and the tide is changing. Many orthodox bishops are being ordained and they are begining to stand up for the truth more and more. I like the direction we are headed, while I mourn where we were throughout the seventies, eighties, and ninties. There are still some of the hippie types around, but I really see them as a dying breed.
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« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2010, 03:36:33 PM »

There are still some of the hippie types around, but I really see them as a dying breed.
Sadly, these "hippie types" pass their radical views onto the next generation.
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« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2010, 04:08:42 PM »

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!

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« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2010, 04:52:33 PM »

There are still some of the hippie types around, but I really see them as a dying breed.
Sadly, these "hippie types" pass their radical views onto the next generation.
Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
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« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2010, 04:53:47 PM »

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!


Pretty sick. Of course its a very extreme and very very very rare obuse.
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2010, 04:54:16 PM »

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!


Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
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« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2010, 05:04:27 PM »

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!


Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?

To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.   Smiley
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« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2010, 05:05:14 PM »

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  Shocked
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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2010, 05:05:37 PM »

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!


Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?

To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.   Smiley
righhhhht.
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2010, 05:06:13 PM »

We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?

Why are you being so defensive?
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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2010, 05:07:28 PM »

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  Shocked
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".
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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2010, 05:07:40 PM »

To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.   Smiley

 laugh
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« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2010, 05:08:49 PM »

We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?

Why are you being so defensive?
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.
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« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2010, 05:08:54 PM »

I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap.
LOL! The Byzantine Catholics would beg to differ with you.
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« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.

You seem to have a real inferiority complex.
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« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2010, 05:11:12 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe. But I will answer your question.

I am old enough to remember attending the Latin Mass of my youth.  To see this now--is a travesty.
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« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.

You seem to have a real inferiority complex.
Not at all. Just as you believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, I believe of my Church. What I am confused about is why you are so offened about Liturgical abuses in a Church that you don't even think has the Blessed Sacrament to offend in the first place. It seems like a bit of a contradiction.
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« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2010, 05:12:30 PM »

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  Shocked
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2010, 05:13:34 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
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« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2010, 05:14:18 PM »

Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  Shocked
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
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« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM »

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor.  Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2010, 05:15:24 PM »

I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap.
LOL! The Byzantine Catholics would beg to differ with you.
Well then they would be wrong.
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« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2010, 05:17:04 PM »

If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.

There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor.  Smiley
I can understand your other reasons. You didn't believe in what the teachings of the Catholic Church anymore. I am sympathetic to that. But this other reason, well I think that its plain silliness.
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« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2010, 05:17:13 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.

I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems.  Undecided
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« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2010, 05:18:09 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~


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« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2010, 05:18:17 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.

I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems.  Undecided
It will if they actually take me up on it.
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« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2010, 05:18:48 PM »

I think that its plain silliness.

I am sure they will be glad to hear that.
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« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2010, 05:19:18 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~



Again, I agree that there are problems right now. But he majority of Catholics will never see a "Clown Mass" or a "Devil/Halloween Mass" and I am sure you know this.
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« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2010, 05:19:52 PM »

I think that its plain silliness.

I am sure they will be glad to hear that.
Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.
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« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2010, 05:21:46 PM »

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!
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« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2010, 05:23:17 PM »

But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~

Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!
You are right. Your feelings on the matter are the strangest thing.  Wink
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« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2010, 05:23:22 PM »

Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.

Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2010, 05:24:38 PM »

You are right.

Thank you.  Grin
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« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2010, 05:25:16 PM »

Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.

Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly.  Roll Eyes
Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them. That was not the point of my comment about their maturity or lack there of. My point is to describe what I believe is the source of their anguish. If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.
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« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2010, 05:25:32 PM »

You are welcome.  Grin
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« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2010, 05:27:25 PM »

Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.

It would not.

If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.

ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!
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« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2010, 05:28:09 PM »

Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.

It would not.

If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.

ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!
You are too mickey.  Cheesy
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« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2010, 05:29:26 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
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« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2010, 06:00:19 PM »

Quote
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2010, 06:23:19 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
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« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2010, 06:28:46 PM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.
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« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2010, 07:44:26 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
I think they are making it an issue. But that doesn't mean its a substantial issue in and of itself.
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« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2010, 07:52:04 PM »

Quote
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  Smiley
Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.
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« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2010, 07:53:26 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.
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« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2010, 07:54:54 PM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.
1. Where on earth do you go to Church that you don't experience trustworthy priests?
2. An act of schism will certainly not lead you to sanctity.
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« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2010, 09:30:49 PM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.

Curiously, I was banned for the same reason  Cheesy. The tortured logic that the "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" come up with gets really cartoonish over there.
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« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2010, 10:16:13 PM »

Quote
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  Smiley
Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to?  Sad Huh
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:17:40 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2010, 11:38:21 PM »

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.
I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.
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« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2010, 11:43:34 PM »

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.
I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travesties continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.
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« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2010, 11:45:10 PM »

Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you

I think they are not as rare as you believe. But I will answer your question.

I am old enough to remember attending the Latin Mass of my youth.  To see this now--is a travesty.
I agree
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« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2010, 11:47:59 PM »

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.
I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travest" ies continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.
Isn't that a phenomenon?
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« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2010, 11:00:48 AM »

Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.

Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1

There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.

Curiously, I was banned for the same reason  Cheesy. The tortured logic that the "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" come up with gets really cartoonish over there.
I guess we will have to be in agreement on that point.   Cheesy
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« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2010, 11:04:32 AM »

Quote
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  Smiley
Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to?  Sad Huh
Well, I agree with everything you have said here. I think for the most part the extreme abuses in the Liturgy are usually dealt with. That being said, could American Catholic Bishops stand to be tougher? They sure could. The problem is that once pandora's box has been opened, it takes a long time pull all those demons back in. I believe that we are in the process of fixing the problem but I don't believe that it will happen over night.

I have a questions as well. Since contraception is contrary to traditional Orthodox morality, why are your bishops not doing more to preach against it? You see, once a negative movement like this has begun, its really hard to stop.
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« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2010, 11:05:03 AM »

Lord have mercy. I have seen some strange things but I'm glad I have not seen any of that going on in any of the Roman churches in my city. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen or heard of such things. That is taking things a little far.
I have seen these videos before. They are mainly posted by Traditionalist Roman Catholics. You  can see more on their websites.

I think these (clown Masses) are an abomination.

Irrelevant as to who posts them online, ChristusDominus. My gripe is that such travest" ies continue to be conducted by certain clergy, including some bishops, who appear to be "in good standing" with their church.
Isn't that a phenomenon?
I love your Avatar btw. St. Pio was an amazing saint.
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« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2010, 02:17:27 PM »

Quote
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.

Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  Smiley
Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.

Papist, at no time did I say these travesties were characteristic of your church. What I did say was that their very existence, even if conducted by a small minority of RC clergy, constitute a debasement of the RC faith, which can only be corrected by a more rigorous approach on the part of the laity (they can only do so much), and, more importantly, from the episcopate and higher orders, if such transgressions are promoted by bishops themselves, as has been shown. By contrast, if an Orthodox cleric were to hold wayward liturgies, he would be VERY swiftly dealt with.

There was even a case a few years ago of a bishop in the north of Greece who took it upon himself to conduct services in modern Greek. Though many would see this as a minor deviation of litugical order, it didn't last long, and he was quite chastised by his fellow bishops. If such a seemingly minor infraction was dealt with in this way, then you should be able to imagine the avalanche that would result if an Orthodox priest or bishop held a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, or any other form of worship which didn't shape up. If the Orthodox can manage to curb such infractions in line, then why can't your lot seem to consistently be able to?  Sad Huh
Well, I agree with everything you have said here. I think for the most part the extreme abuses in the Liturgy are usually dealt with. That being said, could American Catholic Bishops stand to be tougher? They sure could. The problem is that once pandora's box has been opened, it takes a long time pull all those demons back in. I believe that we are in the process of fixing the problem but I don't believe that it will happen over night.

I have a questions as well. Since contraception is contrary to traditional Orthodox morality, why are your bishops not doing more to preach against it? You see, once a negative movement like this has begun, its really hard to stop.

On your question on contraception: If I were to answer it, I would derail the thread. At any rate, this is an individual pastoral matter, while at the same time, Orthodox bishops in my experience haven't exactly been silent on the matter.

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, into cheap entertainment?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:18:57 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2010, 02:21:28 PM »

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?
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« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2010, 02:29:20 PM »

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.
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« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2010, 02:47:35 PM »

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.
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« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2010, 02:50:38 PM »

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.
I have seen both good and bad priests in the EO Church as well. I visited a Greek Orthodox Church here in Albuquerque. The sermon was not about God's call to righteousness or his salavation. It was pretty much one of those warm squishy sermons that many charge Catholic priests with. The other Church I visited was OCA, and I actually visted several times. That priest happens to be the brother of one of the deacons at my old Ruthenian parish. The OCA priest preached a sermon of true repentance and conversion. I suspect that you get both kinds of priest in the EO just as you would get both kinds of priest in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #134 on: January 22, 2010, 02:51:32 PM »

I love your Avatar btw. St. Pio was an amazing saint.
Thanks, he truly was an amazing man.Yet, his life was no bowl of cherries.
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« Reply #135 on: January 22, 2010, 02:54:20 PM »

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.

I think if you are not Catholic in America, you're honestly not in a position to dictate. Vast numbers of Catholics are nominal at best. Many just don't care. I've spent the better part of 5 years dialoguing with Priests and Deacons and Laity who think God is Accepting and Accommodating. We don't have to stick to stuffy praxis, as such is born out of fear of God and whatnot. This is the mentality. You are talking about a few voices that largely come across as 'judgmental' and 'lacking love' compared to the vast majority who are okay living a nominal Christian lifestyle.

Even St. Isaac said that ascesis draws only a few every generation. You seem to assume the throughout history the mast majority of Christians were dutiful. I don't know if St. Isaac would agree with you.

So washing one's hands of the problem and putting it in the "too hard" basket is the answer? Why bother with catechesis, then? Education, of clergy and laity alike, is ultimately the solution.
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« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2010, 02:55:32 PM »

Pandora's Box may have been opened regarding liturgical and other abuses, but it is really so difficult for each bishop to put his foot down in his diocese? And, apart from voting with their feet, as so many of my RC friends are doing, does not the laity have some say in this, as they did, with the help of their bishop, in succeeding to shut down the blasphemous OL of Guadelupe exhibition, or to restore the proper Trinitarian formula for baptisms in the church I earlier referred to? It worked then, why not for the arguably graver transgression of turning Mass into a pantomime, a sideshow?

We are not talking about "private", individual, personal matters here, but the public expression of the faith of the RCC, the very heart of its worship. I'm not arguing the merits of the Tridentine Mass versus Novus Ordo per se, but of the continued conducting, even if in a small number of churches, of liturgical travesties. Even if it were happening in but ONE church, that is one church too many.

Perhaps too little too late but when the Bishop is part of the problem and most individuals are only moderately religious and their vocation is seen more as a occupation... what do you expect them to do? If an inquiry were done can you imagine what the media would do?

It's never too late to act to correct such abuses, Ignatius. And if the media get hold of the "story" does this mean that the "good name of the church" takes precedence over what is right and proper praxis? Perpetuating ignorance and selection of poor episcopal candidates is little excuse.
I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.
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« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2010, 03:02:19 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
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« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2010, 05:54:21 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
Thanks for sharing. What do they do now?
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« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2010, 09:39:05 PM »

I agree. That's why His Holiness Pope Benedict has been placing good men in the espicopate. BTW, could you shed a little for me on how EO bishops are selected. For Catholics, the bishops from a particular country come up with a list of candidates to fill the seat of a particular see. This list is sent to Rome, and one of the men on the list is approved or the list is rejected outright and the Bishops from the originating country come up with a new list. How do you guys select a bisop.

In Orthodoxy it was in a similar fashion, except the candidate was sent to the Emperor for approval.
Thanks for sharing. What do they do now?

Personally, I don't know. An Orthodox Christian will have to file us in. Personally, I think a lot of the early Church changed after the Empire assumed it whole clothe like it did. I can't imagine the early Church getting their Bishops appointments approved by the secular leaders nor communicating with the Pope in Rome, for that matter.

My view of the early Church is rather one of spiritual elders being elevated by popular acclaim by the community without secular approval nor Papal appointment... simple popular acclamation.
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« Reply #140 on: January 23, 2010, 12:31:16 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I'm curious to know your views. What is the goal of monasticism? Please note, I would rather hear something more substantial than simply 'theosis' from Orthodox and something more substantial than "keeping the Commandments" from Catholics.

Thank you all.

Ignatius,

I know the thread has moved on, but I'm going to answer the OP. 

I'd recommend several sources where you can get the answer:

1. the Service of Monastic Tonsuring in the "Byzantine Rite"

2. the Sayings of the Desert Fathers and of Saint Makarios.
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=2667
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=2668

3. the Synaxarion , which has abundant examples of the different forms of monastic life and shows their similarities and differences.   
http://www.easternchristiansupply.biz/-#books/c14/c7298/c28898/a16521
[this one is published by the Monastery of Simonopetra on Mount Athos.  It's expensive but WELL worth the money]

4. the sections on Monasticism in Archmandrite Aemilianos (former Abbot of the Monastery of Simonopetra on Mount Athos)'s book The Church at Prayer - e.g. "if we don't become men of prayer, if we get lost in [such and such worldly matter], our whole coming to Mount Athos will be worthless". [this is an awesome book]
http://www.liturgica.com/cart/bookInfo.jsp?catNo=BF066

5. the final chapter of Archmandrite Vassilios (former Abbot of the Monastery of Iviron on Mount Athos)'s book "Hymn of Entry. 
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=96

6. Metropolitan Jonah's article in another thread gives some clues also. 
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25541.new.html#new


Finally, my opinion, paraphrasing the above:

The monk is a man who is called by God to live a particular form of Christian life, where one's "vocation" in life is to "die" to the world and live in a wholistic way devoted to God, to communicating to God in very "advanced" prayer, living away from the "world" as a solitary or in a cenobium, and expressing this to the world - to creation, to your brother monks, to the people you meet, to the pilgrims - in a loving, God-like manner.    [I'd say the same for Nuns]

In contrast, the "ideal" non-monastic life has one praying all day, indeed has one ideally allowing God to "prosper the work of your hands".  But it's different in that you don't give up all the trappings of the world.  You go on wearing/buying regular clothes, you can amass money, things, you can get married and have children - all in accordance with God's will for you.   

Note, IMO, monasticism (or lay life) is not willed, it's called by God and one lives it.   Also, note that, as per the Desert Fathers, someone living in the town can be just as holy as a monk.   

IMO,

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« Reply #141 on: January 23, 2010, 01:17:35 AM »


¿do you think it is only devotion? ¿Don´t you think it is driven by faith?

Alonso,

Here are some reasons which will help you understand why the Orthodox cannot be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church:

Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WadbbxPoBlk

Catholic Clown Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsC4wRPybpA


Again, the thread has drifted from this question a bit, but IMO on this:

These things happen because large swathes of the Latin Church have forgotten what worship is.  Because of this, they insert different things because they like it, because they think it makes them relevant, or whatever.  This is not just a modern phenomenon - we have in the 1400s various blasphemous things going on during Masses as well as "parody Masses" where the hymnody parodied popular songs.  In the 1700s we have Masses where the priest did his own thing, an orchestra played a "mass setting" which was more like a secular concert (the best of these are Mozart's Masses.  But there were also lots of Masses of lesser quality that no one plays anymore).  In the 1950s we have people going to Father such and such's Mass because he got you out of your Sunday obligation in 30 minutes.

I'm not saying this was the way things were everywhere, but they were definite realities and I think the Latin Church still struggles with many of the same mentalities today, even though the form is different.  Compounding all this is having multiple Masses in one liturgical day (as many as seven), all run by one different presbyter according, in many ways, to his wishes.  We have non-Mass liturgies being regulated to private devotions and extraliturgical devotions becoming pseudo-liturgies.  

This is even the case in St. Peter's - in fact, that place sometimes can seem like a liturgical zoo, with all kinds of priests visiting and saying Masses with their tour groups at a schedule convenient to them and to the Basilica, while the tourists run around gawking, snapping pictures (with flash, even though there's a whole army of ushers who constantly say "no flash!") and talking [I am equally guilty of this, though I tried to be more discrete and reverent].   The sense is that of private people or groups doing their own thing, not "one community, one worship" and ensuring that that worship is sober, orthodox, involves everyone, and conducted in accordance with the spirit of the Church.   They can't go back to the days of Late Antiquity, where ONLY the bishop of a diocese said Mass (in Rome the Pope said Mass three times a week and that was it), but there needs to be something done to move away from the idea that a "private liturgy means that I can do things as I like".      

Finally, I agree with Father Ambrose that priests who do/condone outrageous things at Mass should be removed.  But frequently, the Bishops would generally condone those outrageous things, and even if they didn't they generally don't like removing priests.  And Rome can do little because, despite the centralization of the current Latin Church, it's incapable of micromanaging the whole of said church.  

That being said, I personally don't believe the Latin Church is completely off - in fact, there are places where it's surprisingly strong.   The decree of the Second Vatican Council on Liturgy is excellent - e.g. its liturgical theology, its insistence on liturgical chant, on public celebration of Vespers and Matins/Lauds.  But fat chance finding it implemented correctly anywhere.  

IMO, the best thing the Pope could do about all this is to figure out how to implement things correctly (based on his books, I have no doubt that he understands how to do this), to do so in Saint Peter's or whatever church he happens to be in on a particular day, and to broadcast it via Vatican TV (where it'll be picked up by EWTN and similar stations).
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« Reply #142 on: January 23, 2010, 03:35:14 AM »

Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.

Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.
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« Reply #143 on: January 23, 2010, 03:46:09 AM »

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.

Over some Parishes in communion with Rome in North America, I find a great shadow of Sloth which has taken away any zeal. There simply is not fervor for our salvation nor for that of others. Don't get me wrong, it is not all like that but like I have said I really like 'real' Orthodox Christians whom I meet 'on the ground'... they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean. In fact, I only meet such characters on forums. None of the Orthodox Christian I know personally demean the Roman Catholic Church. I attended Catholic Evening Prayer tonight for those in Haiti. Lord have Mercy. It was not unlike Vespers with the Orthodox but it seems to take such a calamity such as Haiti to bring us out for a Vespers Service.
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« Reply #144 on: January 23, 2010, 03:56:02 AM »

...they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Forgive me if I've offended you.
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« Reply #145 on: January 23, 2010, 11:33:55 PM »

...they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Forgive me if I've offended you.

Oh, please. There is no need for you to apologize Alveus Lacuna, I was not meaning you by any stretch of the imagination.

I spoke to my Orthodox Priest tonight and I will be entering into the Catechumenate before Great Lent. Nice.

But I have to tell you some of people around here lately 'stink of Orthodoxy'.... it's a term I got from a Buddhist who said that some newbies go so overboard that they make Buddhism 'stink'... he he he

Anyways. Pray for me!

Peace.
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« Reply #146 on: January 24, 2010, 04:41:49 PM »

Well, I can't tell you anymore than the fact that in the Catholic Church, he who arrives is not part of the rest, and we don't lack of that who he leaves. And yet we seek for unity.

Over some Parishes in communion with Rome in North America, I find a great shadow of Sloth which has taken away any zeal. There simply is not fervor for our salvation nor for that of others. Don't get me wrong, it is not all like that but like I have said I really like 'real' Orthodox Christians whom I meet 'on the ground'... they are not like those we encounter here who are puffed up and mean. In fact, I only meet such characters on forums. None of the Orthodox Christian I know personally demean the Roman Catholic Church. I attended Catholic Evening Prayer tonight for those in Haiti. Lord have Mercy. It was not unlike Vespers with the Orthodox but it seems to take such a calamity such as Haiti to bring us out for a Vespers Service.
In the middle ages some converted to Albigensianism because they thought they found more fervor among that community.
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« Reply #147 on: January 24, 2010, 05:58:18 PM »


In the middle ages some converted to Albigensianism because they thought they found more fervor among that community.

Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.

I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
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« Reply #148 on: January 24, 2010, 06:06:25 PM »


Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

First, my point is not that they are the same. Rather, the idea that one should leave the Catholic Church because she is going through a rough time is not a good one. Second, I am not convinced that EOs are entirely orthodox.
You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.
Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church because that is not my experience. You aren't struggling with scrupulocity are you?

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.
Sounds like you have a bad diocese. All the more reason to remain and try to encourage other devout Catholics in your area to demand reform. If all the good Catholics were to leave the Church, where would we be?
I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
First, if you think that you won't think that you won't find liberal priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church, you are sadly mistaken. I know of several in the area in which I live. Second, no one is ever better served by schism. Third, if you think that the Eastern Orthodox Church is so solid, why have they waffled on artificial birth control? Why is the Ecumenical Patriarch so week kneed on the abortion issue?
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« Reply #149 on: January 24, 2010, 06:22:19 PM »


Papist, we both know that there is a 'big' difference from the Albigensians and the Orthodox Church. The Albigensians were gnostic heretics. We both know that the Orthodox aren't heretics and are clearly not gnostics.

First, my point is not that they are the same. Rather, the idea that one should leave the Catholic Church because she is going through a rough time is not a good one. Second, I am not convinced that EOs are entirely orthodox.
You know I went to confession yesterday to a Catholic Priest I only recently meet and I confessed a sin. Do you know that that Priest said 'flat out' accept my sinfulness and don't worry about it. I told him that we are called to be holy and he told me only God can make you holy and it isn't based on our sinfulness. We should accept ourselves as we are and relax.
Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church because that is not my experience. You aren't struggling with scrupulocity are you?

I don't think so. I've never had a Priest suggest to me that I am suffering from scrupulosity. The Catholic Church just doesn't teach nor honor the virtues and vices anymore and think and teach another means of salvation, kinda like liberal Protestantism. It's sad.

Quote

I can tell you that such is not told to us in the Ancient Church nor even the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a scandal the lack of fever within the Catholic Church today in America. I'm sure Pope Benedict is a devout follower by I'm telling you I haven't met a Catholic Priest in my diocese how teaches anything that is clearly taught in the Orthodox Parishes around me. They are the only ones who are faithful to the Gospel. It's a scandal.
Sounds like you have a bad diocese. All the more reason to remain and try to encourage other devout Catholics in your area to demand reform. If all the good Catholics were to leave the Church, where would we be?

It must be. All I can tell you is I must deal with what I have and where I'm at. I draw much nourishment from Orthodoxy here.

Quote
I am sure that me and may family will be better guided in the Orthodox Church. I've known the local Priest for several years and I've debated this for some time and it's for the best.
First, if you think that you won't think that you won't find liberal priests in the Eastern Orthodox Church, you are sadly mistaken. I know of several in the area in which I live. Second, no one is ever better served by schism. Third, if you think that the Eastern Orthodox Church is so solid, why have they waffled on artificial birth control? Why is the Ecumenical Patriarch so week kneed on the abortion issue?

I honestly can't answers those question but I can tell you that I've 'never' heard a Catholic Priest speak up about Artificial Birth Control and there are a lot of Catholics in my parish with one and two children who are in their late 30's and 40's. If they aren't using ABC then they aren't having relations.  Grin

I think the Orthodox approach is a bit more honest though. Kinda like the way they handle second marriages. They recognize it but they look down on it when it happens.
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« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2010, 01:46:19 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.
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« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2010, 04:24:07 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.

unfortunately, I think even though you and I attend the Roman Catholic Church in America we really aren't attending the 'real' Church because I can't find the Roman Catholic Church that you and I speak of where I live. Richmond VA.
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« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2010, 04:27:13 PM »

^ Again, I have no idea where you are going to Church but my Priest often talks about how artificial birth control and how it is wrong. This priest often talks about the abortion issue. And since you have brought up the issue of "Cheap grace" my priest has preached on this issue specifically. He has a sermon entiled "The false gospel of Cheap Grace" or something like that.

unfortunately, I think even though you and I attend the Roman Catholic Church in America we really aren't attending the 'real' Church because I can't find the Roman Catholic Church that you and I speak of where I live. Richmond VA.
So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?
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« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2010, 04:28:12 PM »

We all have the same vocation lay or monastic that is that we are to acquire the likeness of God that was lost during the Fall of Adam. This is attained through public participation in the life of the Church and privately through prayer, fasting, and almsgiving.


For a pure monastic interpretation from a cenobitic perspective lets look at a Saint and Monastic highly respected in Both The Orthodox and Catholic Church, Saint Benedict of Nursia. Here is what he has to say on this topic:

The Prologue to the Rule of Saint Benedict

Thank you so much for sharing this with me. It was very much what I was looking for. Thank you so much.
For that Catholic view of monasticism, I think you can once again read the rule of St. Benedict.

Papist,

Would you agree that ascesis in the West seems to have largely died out since Vatican II? what I mean to say is that renunciation of the World doesn't seem to be the Catholic goal anymore.

There are still monastic orders in the West in which renunciation of the world is important. By and large, Catholic orders are less ascetic than Anglican orders.

A member of my family, who was a nun, said that the goal is to bear witness, and to live to God. For her, the best way of doing that was as a nun, but that is not to say that if you are called to be a secular priest, a parent or any kind of person 'in the world', that you are not doing the same.
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« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2010, 04:30:20 PM »

So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?

I'm just going where the well has water is all. Where I don't see an actually functioning Hierarchy... I don't find Christ's Church. That is kind of an extreme statement so don't take it to far.
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« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2010, 04:32:39 PM »

So you think that the Church has ceased to exist when there is a lack of Zeal? Do you think that this has never happened in the Byzantine East?

I'm just going where the well has water is all. Where I don't see an actually functioning Hierarchy... I don't find Christ's Church. That is kind of an extreme statement so don't take it to far.
I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.
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« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »

I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.

next weekend the Bishop is having a Town hall meeting at our parish to discuss 'concerns'. I'm just 'done' is all. I'm tired of the 'games' Catholic Priests play to avoid being 'orthodox'.
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« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2010, 04:55:05 PM »

I understand what you are hinting at and I may be blessed to have a wonderful parish (in fact all the parishes in my little suburban area are wonderfully orthodox) but I think you have to be missing many things to be willing to leave the Catholic Church. It grieves me deeply and worries me intensely. That being said, there seems to be nothing I can do for you but pray.

next weekend the Bishop is having a Town hall meeting at our parish to discuss 'concerns'. I'm just 'done' is all. I'm tired of the 'games' Catholic Priests play to avoid being 'orthodox'.
Again, nothing like the area in which I live.
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« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2010, 05:09:25 PM »

Again, nothing like the area in which I live.

The fact that we have fewer and fewer Priests just means that these pockets of Orthodoxy will not grow. The Priests that I know are nothing more than Ministers... and not really strong ones. I've been dialogue with several for years and they are so clever in their ability to argue around simple adherence to the norm of the Catholic Faith. I mean the CCC isn't vague about these things... yet they will flat tell you, to your face, in the midst of the Confessional a completely different thing. I don't feel right arguing with them in the midst of confession and after years of dialogue I honestly don't see how the Catholic Church can return to anything that appears 'orthodox'. They are far to clever and most of the leaders in the Parishes are supportive of their views.

Maybe there are some places out there that are faithful... I've just never seen them. My guess, and I'm only guessing, that if the Pope saw my situation he would be fine with me seeking nourishment in the Orthodox Parishes and Converting. If my Catholic Parish were even half as devout as the Orthodox Parish I attend I would be proud but it isn't. So you have to ask yourself what's the point of hearing all this vapid homilies month after month when there is an Orthodox Parish teaching the real unadulterated faith that has more in common with the Pope than their own Catholic Parishes?

I'm venting a bit so pardon me. But I'm a little tired of Catholics say tough it out, be faithful, and all that jazz when the Catholic Church is sinking... where I live.
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« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »

Again, nothing like the area in which I live.

The fact that we have fewer and fewer Priests just means that these pockets of Orthodoxy will not grow. The Priests that I know are nothing more than Ministers... and not really strong ones. I've been dialogue with several for years and they are so clever in their ability to argue around simple adherence to the norm of the Catholic Faith. I mean the CCC isn't vague about these things... yet they will flat tell you, to your face, in the midst of the Confessional a completely different thing. I don't feel right arguing with them in the midst of confession and after years of dialogue I honestly don't see how the Catholic Church can return to anything that appears 'orthodox'. They are far to clever and most of the leaders in the Parishes are supportive of their views.

Maybe there are some places out there that are faithful... I've just never seen them. My guess, and I'm only guessing, that if the Pope saw my situation he would be fine with me seeking nourishment in the Orthodox Parishes and Converting. If my Catholic Parish were even half as devout as the Orthodox Parish I attend I would be proud but it isn't. So you have to ask yourself what's the point of hearing all this vapid homilies month after month when there is an Orthodox Parish teaching the real unadulterated faith that has more in common with the Pope than their own Catholic Parishes?

I'm venting a bit so pardon me. But I'm a little tired of Catholics say tough it out, be faithful, and all that jazz when the Catholic Church is sinking... where I live.
I am sorry if you are tired of hearing Catholics say tough it out, but that is what calls us too. You say that the Church is not teaching you virtues, but running away to what appears easier is not virtue but vice. Something to think about. You know, during the Arian Crisis, it probably appeared that the Church would never return to her formal glory, but guess what. It did.
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« Reply #160 on: January 25, 2010, 05:27:49 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.
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« Reply #161 on: January 25, 2010, 05:30:31 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make actholics to hesitate about their churches. It is lijke if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Goodness ... well, I've read a fair few of Ignatius' posts, it doesn't sound as if he's a 'schismatic agent'.

This topic is becoming rather like a Monty Python sketch!
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« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2010, 05:32:36 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided
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« Reply #163 on: January 25, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make actholics to hesitate about their churches. It is lijke if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Goodness ... well, I've read a fair few of Ignatius' posts, it doesn't sound as if he's a 'schismatic agent'.

This topic is becoming rather like a Monty Python sketch!
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« Reply #164 on: January 25, 2010, 06:07:21 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided

YOU ARE CATHOLIC, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AFTER. But if you want to drop out the ship and go ahead by swiming no problem, we keep in the ship of Peter.
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« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »

YOU ARE CATHOLIC, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AFTER. But if you want to drop out the ship and go ahead by swiming no problem, we keep in the ship of Peter.

I think I now understand the reformation. They looked at each Church fighting over who had grace and who had jurisdiction and they finally determined that they'd just have to brave it alone.
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« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2010, 06:19:06 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!
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« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2010, 06:55:43 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!

May be who knows.
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« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2010, 08:13:26 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.
Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.
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« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2010, 08:14:26 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Oh, that is so lame. A schismatic agent of the Orthodox... If that worked for me that would be great. The problem is the Orthodox think I'm a heretical agent of the Catholics...  Roll Eyes

No place to lay me head... I guess.  Undecided
Well, I am certainly not perfect, but I consider you my brother in Christ. If any of my posts have offended you, please forgive me.
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« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2010, 08:14:53 PM »

Ignatius I am coming to understand that perhaps you never belonged to Catholic church, and that you actualy are a schsmatic dressed like catholic to make catholics to hesitate about their churches. It is like if you were playing the tactics of a catholic that makes others to feel abandoned, that is what you really are doing, but that game doesn't work with me, If you want to leave, right, go at once. But stop sniveling. other way We will be sure that you are really a schismatic agent dressed like a false doubtful catholic.

Are you an Orthodox pretending to be Catholic, so you can make Catholics look dumb? Because you're doing a great job!
That's probably not going to help the situation.
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« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2010, 08:28:42 PM »

I spoke to my Orthodox priest tonight and I will be entering into the catechumenate before Great Lent.

Congratulations.  May God keep you safe.
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« Reply #172 on: January 25, 2010, 09:22:36 PM »

Who hijacked the thread ? It's a outrage...
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« Reply #173 on: January 25, 2010, 10:52:33 PM »

Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.

No, No, No... my actions are nobodies fault except my own and those of my Priests, seriously. Saturday at Confession was kinda like the straw that broke the camels back. Far more Orthodox here slamming sincere Catholics trying to work out their salvation in fear and trembling has served more to drawing me to defense them but I honestly can't defend the Catholic Church in America, especially in my neck fo the woods. It is absolutely anti-Catholic Catechism, anti-moral code, pro-license.

That said we really should get this thread back on target.

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline? I've honestly never saw a Catholic praying the rosary at my parish, except during the RCIA session on the Rosary.
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« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2010, 11:58:35 PM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0
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« Reply #175 on: January 26, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0

I have about a 20 minute drive into work every morning which I often say the Trisagion and the Jesus Prayer. My daughter and I pray the Trisagion every evening together with a few added prayers for friends, family, those suffering and those who have passed on. The Orthodox Parish I attend also has a 'rule for home prayer' although we don't tend to make it through that one before my daughter (7 years old) tires out ;-)
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« Reply #176 on: January 26, 2010, 12:03:40 PM »

Seeing someone recite the Rosary is like the use of incense and candles at a Catholic Mass... 0

I have about a 20 minute drive into work every morning which I often say the Trisagion and the Jesus Prayer. My daughter and I pray the Trisagion every evening together with a few added prayers for friends, family, those suffering and those who have passed on. The Orthodox Parish I attend also has a 'rule for home prayer' although we don't tend to make it through that one before my daughter (7 years old) tires out ;-)

Ignatius, you put me to shame. Only a catechumen and you are already much further ahead than I on the journey (both before and after my conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy).  I say that without any false humility.  I have baited you in the past and ask your forgiveness. Godspeed.
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« Reply #177 on: January 26, 2010, 12:05:38 PM »

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline?

Prayer rule--morning and evening prayer with family. Frequent reading of Scriptures. Spiritual reading pertaining to lives of saints, Church Fathers, theology, etc.  The Jesus Prayer.  Fasting when appropriate.

It is imperative to find a good spiritual father.  Smiley
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« Reply #178 on: January 26, 2010, 12:26:26 PM »

Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.

No, No, No... my actions are nobodies fault except my own and those of my Priests, seriously. Saturday at Confession was kinda like the straw that broke the camels back. Far more Orthodox here slamming sincere Catholics trying to work out their salvation in fear and trembling has served more to drawing me to defense them but I honestly can't defend the Catholic Church in America, especially in my neck fo the woods. It is absolutely anti-Catholic Catechism, anti-moral code, pro-license.

That said we really should get this thread back on target.

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline? I've honestly never saw a Catholic praying the rosary at my parish, except during the RCIA session on the Rosary.

How long have you been preaticing the Liturgy of the Hours?

Here is a good Link for the daily prayer.

http://divineoffice.org/

Jan 26, Morning Prayer for Tuesday of the 3rd week of Ordinary Time


Hymn: Nada te turbe (Taize chant from poem by St Teresa of Avila)
Translation:
May nothing disturb you.
May nothing astonish you.
Everything passes.
God does not go away.
Patience can attain anything.
He who has God within,
does not lack anything.
God is everything!*

Psalm 85 — Our salvation is near
Antiphon 1: Lord, you have blessed your land; you have forgiven the sins of your people.

.2 O Lord, you once favored your land
and revived the fortunes of Jacob,
.3 you forgave the guilt of your people
and covered all their sins.
.4 You averted all your rage,
you calmed the heat of your anger.

.5 Revive us now, God, our helper!
Put an end to your grievance against us.
.6 Will you be angry with us for ever,
will your anger never cease?

.7 Will you not restore again our life
that your people may rejoice in you?
.8 Let us see, O Lord, your mercy
and give us your saving help.

* * *

.9 I will hear what the Lord God has to say,
a voice that speaks of peace,
peace for his people and his friends
and those who turn to him in their hearts.
.10 His help is near for those who fear him
and his glory will dwell in our land.

.11 Mercy and faithfulness have met;
justice and peace have embraced.
.12 Faithfulness shall spring from the earth
and justice look down from heaven.

.13 The Lord will make us prosper
and our earth shall yield its fruit.
.14 Justice shall march before him
and peace shall follow his steps.

Canticle: Isaiah 26:1-4, 7-9, 12 –Hymn after the defeat of the enemy
Antiphon 2: My soul has yearned for you in the night, and as morning breaks I watch for your coming.


Psalm 67 – People of all nations will worship the Lord
Antiphon 3: Lord, let the light of your face shine upon us.

.2 O God, be gracious and bless us
and let your face shed its light upon us.
.3 So will your ways be known upon earth
and all nations learn your saving help.

.4 Let the peoples praise you, O God;
let all the peoples praise you.

.5 Let the nations be glad and exult
for you rule the world with justice.
With fairness you rule the peoples,
you guide the nations on earth.

.6 Let the peoples praise you, O God;
let all the peoples praise you.

.7 The earth has yielded its fruit
for God, our God, has blessed us.
.8 May God still give us his blessing
till the ends of the earth revere him.

Reading: 1 John 4:14-15

14 Moreover, we have seen and testify that the Father sent his Son as savior of the world.
15 Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him and he in God.



Canticle of Zechariah
Antiphon: God has raised up for us a mighty Savior, as he promised of old through the holy prophets.


Intercessions
Antiphon: Remember your people, Lord


Our Father …

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

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« Reply #179 on: January 26, 2010, 12:37:00 PM »



How long have you been preaticing the Liturgy of the Hours?

Here is a good Link for the daily prayer.

http://divineoffice.org/

Jan 26, Morning Prayer for Tuesday of the 3rd week of Ordinary Time


Actually, I have all that in my iPhone... I like the Liturgy of the Hours. I've prayed it for years. Not Christian Prayer but the actual four volume Set Liturgy of the Hours. In Orthodoxy, they still pray the Old Divine Hours but I don't manage to attend them all with the Parish. Mostly just Wednesday Vespers and Great Vespers on Saturday. I haven't been attending the Divine Liturgy on Sundays because I've still been attending my Catholic Parish on Sundays but I'm feeling that will be coming to a stop as I enter into the Catechumenate but the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours was probably the best thing that came out of Vatican II. to simply it and make it available to everyone was a great idea. I only wish it was incorporated into the life of the Parishes more fully.
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« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »



Ignatius, you put me to shame. Only a catechumen and you are already much further head than I on the journey (both before and after my conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy).  I say that without any false humility.  I have baited you in the past and ask your forgiveness. Godspeed.

It's really not 'me'... I honestly think what helps 'me' pray everyday is my family. Some nights I honestly don't feel like praying but my daughter encourages me and other nights I encourage her. It's very nice to pray with family. I really like it when our whole family are involved, including Mom.

There is something about Orthodox Prayers which comes across very nonjudgmental that I find healthy for my daughter too. Looking at the Lord as 'on our side' and seeing sin as 'something other' is good at making my daughter not feel guilty at age seven. That is very important I think to building a canon or rule for them that they are not going to reject in later years.
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« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2010, 01:18:17 PM »

Dear Brother,
What you have posted above does not sound like Ignatius at all. While I definitely don't aprove of his schismatic actions, his posters, for years now, appear to be very genuine. He sounds like a man who is truely struggling and does not always know quite where he belongs. The situation in which he finds himself is a very difficult one and I don't envy him. I truely believe that he is trying his best to serve the Lord in the best way he knows how. It may be the wrong decision, but I do believe he is genuine about it. Rather than verbally attacking him, why not show him some love and pray for him. If you had been kinder to him, perhaps that example would have been the very thing that would have kept him in the Ark of Salvation. Just some things to think about.

No, No, No... my actions are nobodies fault except my own and those of my Priests, seriously. Saturday at Confession was kinda like the straw that broke the camels back. Far more Orthodox here slamming sincere Catholics trying to work out their salvation in fear and trembling has served more to drawing me to defense them but I honestly can't defend the Catholic Church in America, especially in my neck fo the woods. It is absolutely anti-Catholic Catechism, anti-moral code, pro-license.

That said we really should get this thread back on target.

What does 'you' Church encourage you to do as a spiritual/ascetic discipline? I've honestly never saw a Catholic praying the rosary at my parish, except during the RCIA session on the Rosary.
I am sorry that you have had such bad experience. Lucky for all of us, we know that no matter what our experience, the Lord loves and wants to divnize us.

As for my Parish, we are encouraged to fast and pray. The Rosary is a very important part of our parish life and it is prayed everday before daily mass while people are in line for confession. In fact, my parish offers confession twice every weekday, and three times on Saturday. For every single session of confession, there is a line and you have to be sure to be there early so that you get confession before mass since there are so many confessors. On Sundays we pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and I can't even count all of the people who have made the liturgy of the ours part of their spiritual lives. We have Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament twenty four hours a day. During the Advent season, we have a novena leading up to Christmas with Mass, Confession, and Benediction. During the weeks leading up to Easter we have the Stations of the Cross every Friday with confession, Mass, and Benediction. The priests never give silly penances like "Love the Lord". Instead we are asked to make a Holy Hour with the Blessed Sacrament or pray the Rosary, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, etc. The adult education courses at my parish are unmatched, and our youth ministry is moving towards a more and more traditional empahsis of the faith. Its a beautiful place and the parishes in my little suburb just north of Albuquerque are the same way. Writting this out just gives me a real peace, and I feel so genuinely greatful that the Lord has given me such a wonderful parish.
I feel you have been robbed in a sense by the parishes you have attended. I agree that in many places in the United States Catholicism is in a great crisis, not very different from the Arian Crisis. This time it is the modernist crisis and because of this, many have not experienced the deep fruits of the Catholic faith. That being said, I have a great parish and I will remain in communion with Sts. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, John Viani, Thomas Aquinas, Therse the Little Flower, Francis of Asisi, Dominic, Padre Pio, Claire, Catherine of Siena, and the countless others in the Holy Cloud of Witnesses. I cannot deny their sanctity and I don't believe such sanctity would be possible if they were worshiping bread and not the living Lord.
That all being said, I will always keep you in my prayers and I wish you the best in your journey to server our common Lord and Savior.
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« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2010, 02:39:17 PM »

I am sorry that you have had such bad experience. Lucky for all of us, we know that no matter what our experience, the Lord loves and wants to divnize us.

As for my Parish, we are encouraged to fast and pray. The Rosary is a very important part of our parish life and it is prayed everday before daily mass while people are in line for confession. In fact, my parish offers confession twice every weekday, and three times on Saturday. For every single session of confession, there is a line and you have to be sure to be there early so that you get confession before mass since there are so many confessors. On Sundays we pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and I can't even count all of the people who have made the liturgy of the ours part of their spiritual lives. We have Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament twenty four hours a day. During the Advent season, we have a novena leading up to Christmas with Mass, Confession, and Benediction. During the weeks leading up to Easter we have the Stations of the Cross every Friday with confession, Mass, and Benediction. The priests never give silly penances like "Love the Lord". Instead we are asked to make a Holy Hour with the Blessed Sacrament or pray the Rosary, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, etc. The adult education courses at my parish are unmatched, and our youth ministry is moving towards a more and more traditional empahsis of the faith. Its a beautiful place and the parishes in my little suburb just north of Albuquerque are the same way. Writting this out just gives me a real peace, and I feel so genuinely greatful that the Lord has given me such a wonderful parish.
I feel you have been robbed in a sense by the parishes you have attended. I agree that in many places in the United States Catholicism is in a great crisis, not very different from the Arian Crisis. This time it is the modernist crisis and because of this, many have not experienced the deep fruits of the Catholic faith. That being said, I have a great parish and I will remain in communion with Sts. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, John Viani, Thomas Aquinas, Therse the Little Flower, Francis of Asisi, Dominic, Padre Pio, Claire, Catherine of Siena, and the countless others in the Holy Cloud of Witnesses. I cannot deny their sanctity and I don't believe such sanctity would be possible if they were worshiping bread and not the living Lord.
That all being said, I will always keep you in my prayers and I wish you the best in your journey to server our common Lord and Savior.

Yes, I agree with you. I believed for a very long time that there was unity in the Catholic Church... but that is not actually true. There has been a great falling away and yet the illusion is that they still are in communion. These Parishes continue to exist and yet are shadow Churches not truly in communion. The teach something loose and vague but altogether alien to that taught by the Vatican. For those of us who can read and do read the CCC. It is a very strange thing indeed.

I only hope and pray that such invisible schism doesn't happen to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #183 on: January 26, 2010, 08:08:58 PM »

I am sorry that you have had such bad experience. Lucky for all of us, we know that no matter what our experience, the Lord loves and wants to divnize us.

As for my Parish, we are encouraged to fast and pray. The Rosary is a very important part of our parish life and it is prayed everday before daily mass while people are in line for confession. In fact, my parish offers confession twice every weekday, and three times on Saturday. For every single session of confession, there is a line and you have to be sure to be there early so that you get confession before mass since there are so many confessors. On Sundays we pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, and I can't even count all of the people who have made the liturgy of the ours part of their spiritual lives. We have Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament twenty four hours a day. During the Advent season, we have a novena leading up to Christmas with Mass, Confession, and Benediction. During the weeks leading up to Easter we have the Stations of the Cross every Friday with confession, Mass, and Benediction. The priests never give silly penances like "Love the Lord". Instead we are asked to make a Holy Hour with the Blessed Sacrament or pray the Rosary, the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, etc. The adult education courses at my parish are unmatched, and our youth ministry is moving towards a more and more traditional empahsis of the faith. Its a beautiful place and the parishes in my little suburb just north of Albuquerque are the same way. Writting this out just gives me a real peace, and I feel so genuinely greatful that the Lord has given me such a wonderful parish.
I feel you have been robbed in a sense by the parishes you have attended. I agree that in many places in the United States Catholicism is in a great crisis, not very different from the Arian Crisis. This time it is the modernist crisis and because of this, many have not experienced the deep fruits of the Catholic faith. That being said, I have a great parish and I will remain in communion with Sts. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, John Viani, Thomas Aquinas, Therse the Little Flower, Francis of Asisi, Dominic, Padre Pio, Claire, Catherine of Siena, and the countless others in the Holy Cloud of Witnesses. I cannot deny their sanctity and I don't believe such sanctity would be possible if they were worshiping bread and not the living Lord.
That all being said, I will always keep you in my prayers and I wish you the best in your journey to server our common Lord and Savior.

Yes, I agree with you. I believed for a very long time that there was unity in the Catholic Church... but that is not actually true. There has been a great falling away and yet the illusion is that they still are in communion. These Parishes continue to exist and yet are shadow Churches not truly in communion. The teach something loose and vague but altogether alien to that taught by the Vatican. For those of us who can read and do read the CCC. It is a very strange thing indeed.

I only hope and pray that such invisible schism doesn't happen to the Orthodox Church.
No, they just have to deal with internal schisms.
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« Reply #184 on: January 27, 2010, 07:49:41 AM »


It's really not 'me'... I honestly think what helps 'me' pray everyday is my family. Some nights I honestly don't feel like praying but my daughter encourages me and other nights I encourage her. It's very nice to pray with family. I really like it when our whole family are involved, including Mom.

There is something about Orthodox Prayers which comes across very nonjudgmental that I find healthy for my daughter too. Looking at the Lord as 'on our side' and seeing sin as 'something other' is good at making my daughter not feel guilty at age seven. That is very important I think to building a canon or rule for them that they are not going to reject in later years.

Yes! I've noticed this too - I like it.

I also like the way that Orthodox prayer is not self-conscious at all.
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« Reply #185 on: January 29, 2010, 10:42:56 AM »

There has been a great falling away and yet the illusion is that they still are in communion. These Parishes continue to exist and yet are shadow Churches not truly in communion. The teach something loose and vague but altogether alien to that taught by the Vatican. For those of us who can read and do read the CCC. It is a very strange thing indeed.

Exactly. The unity that the Pope supposedly brings is an illusion. If the Vatican were to actually enforce Catholic dogma and moral teaching, the RCC would split 3 or 4 different ways. Traditional Catholics, in the US, would go from being a tiny niche within the church to simply being a tiny church.
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« Reply #186 on: January 29, 2010, 11:30:59 AM »

There has been a great falling away and yet the illusion is that they still are in communion. These Parishes continue to exist and yet are shadow Churches not truly in communion. The teach something loose and vague but altogether alien to that taught by the Vatican. For those of us who can read and do read the CCC. It is a very strange thing indeed.

Exactly. The unity that the Pope supposedly brings is an illusion. If the Vatican were to actually enforce Catholic dogma and moral teaching, the RCC would split 3 or 4 different ways. Traditional Catholics, in the US, would go from being a tiny niche within the church to simply being a tiny church.

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.
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« Reply #187 on: January 29, 2010, 11:57:24 AM »

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.

The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.
http://catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=725&Itemid=91



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« Reply #188 on: January 29, 2010, 12:11:26 PM »

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.

The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.
http://catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=725&Itemid=91

I don't know if I see a move in America to traditionalize... I for one am interested in a more devout Church... The Bishop of our Diocese will be at our 'contemporary' Parish this Sunday to have a 'Town Hall Meeting'. I've debated if I should even attend knowing my moves to leave Catholicism.
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« Reply #189 on: January 29, 2010, 12:20:06 PM »

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.

The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.
http://catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=725&Itemid=91

I don't know if I see a move in America to traditionalize... I for one am interested in a more devout Church... The Bishop of our Diocese will be at our 'contemporary' Parish this Sunday to have a 'Town Hall Meeting'. I've debated if I should even attend knowing my moves to leave Catholicism.

You are moving to a more traditional catholicism, Pope Benedict has delivered the posibility of celebrating Latin Masses all around the World, You can form a group of catholics in your diosesis that ask your bishop for a mass in latin weekly, so you can gather there to feel traditional mass, though it is not going to be the Novo Ordo mass but the Roman rite, stablished in Vatican II but in Latin.
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« Reply #190 on: January 29, 2010, 12:30:17 PM »

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.

The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.
http://catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=725&Itemid=91

I don't know if I see a move in America to traditionalize... I for one am interested in a more devout Church... The Bishop of our Diocese will be at our 'contemporary' Parish this Sunday to have a 'Town Hall Meeting'. I've debated if I should even attend knowing my moves to leave Catholicism.

You are moving to a more traditional catholicism, Pope Benedict has delivered the posibility of celebrating Latin Masses all around the World, You can form a group of catholics in your diosesis that ask your bishop for a mass in latin weekly, so you can gather there to feel traditional mass, though it is not going to be the Novo Ordo mass but the Roman rite, stablished in Vatican II but in Latin.

We have an indult Tridentine Parish in our Diocese already. In Latin, every Wednesday and Saturday and Sunday (Low and High). We also have a SSPX Chapel too.
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« Reply #191 on: January 29, 2010, 12:42:21 PM »

I think Pope Benedict XVI predicted just that. He said he foresaw a much small yet more devout Catholic Church in our future.

The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.
http://catholicanada.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=725&Itemid=91

I don't know if I see a move in America to traditionalize... I for one am interested in a more devout Church... The Bishop of our Diocese will be at our 'contemporary' Parish this Sunday to have a 'Town Hall Meeting'. I've debated if I should even attend knowing my moves to leave Catholicism.
Even though you are leaving, your voice might be useful for those of us who remain.
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« Reply #192 on: January 29, 2010, 01:12:34 PM »


Even though you are leaving, your voice might be useful for those of us who remain.

In all honesty bro I don't see how this will ultimately change things. I've been at this parish for more than 6 years and it's grown more liberal in the last 3 years under the current Pastor. Don't get me wrong I think our Pastor is a wonderful man but he'd be even more wonderful at a Baptist Church...  laugh

Anyways... I'm very serious about moving on and I've been putting this off for years now. I'm not going to fight it anymore and I'm just going to have to leave the Catholic Church to take care of it's own business.

PS: isn't that a sassy pict of my daughter...  Grin
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« Reply #193 on: February 02, 2010, 12:12:57 AM »

Congradulations on your coming entry into the catechumate... I will keep you in my prayers



May God Grant you many years!!!

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« Reply #194 on: February 02, 2010, 12:20:23 AM »

Quote
PS: isn't that a sassy pict of my daughter... 

The current one or the previous one? I thought both were cute  Grin
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