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Author Topic: Roman Catholicism makes more sense to me intellectually than Orthodoxy?  (Read 30329 times) Average Rating: 0
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militantsparrow
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militantsparrow
« Reply #405 on: April 30, 2010, 09:06:05 PM »

Who is right? Why would I take your word over Metropolitan Ware?

Can you show me where he has said this?

Sure, I posted a link to a podcast a few posts above of a talk Met. Ware did on the Primacy of Peter and possible reunion.

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I also know that you've been personally caught between Orthodox Catholicism and the Vatican's replica, and these sorts of statements by prominent Orthodox figures are dangerous because they remove any sense of urgency in conversion for you. They basically affirm your church, and say "don't worry about it, we are working it out on an official level. Stay put." That is a weak and pathetic witness (martyrdom) to the Truth. It is no witness.

That is a wise observation on your part. I did not realize it when I first posted this, but after you pointed it out, I think you're right.

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This isn't about what I think. This is about what the Church teaches and has always taught, despite what a few figureheads might be rattling off today in the spirit of cordial ecumenical dinners which come with nice flights and hotel rooms, as well as hobnobbing with important political leaders. Nothing is more exciting to a dying patriarchate which needs a few new powerful friends.

In your opinion, what will replace the dying patriarchate?
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #406 on: April 30, 2010, 09:09:55 PM »

As for Met. Ware and the OrthoWiki article, why are they more authoritative than Sts. Photius and Mark of Ephesus?
I just wanted to second this question.

Are there not Orthodox saints that shared with Met. Ware the same understanding of the Filioque?

Maximus the Confessors would appear to have, however it's important to note that he came before both Photios and Mark, and that Rome's definition of the filioque did progress in that time. I can't think of any significant Fathers after the time of Photios who shared that opinion.

Right. I did not want to outright defend the Filioque by my statement, but only point out that it is not simply Metropolitan Ware who shared the idea that the Filioque was not outright heretical.
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militantsparrow
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« Reply #407 on: April 30, 2010, 09:14:50 PM »

Later on, at about 16:00, when Presbyter Hopko speaks about Modalism, he does say some more things that would appear could be interpreted as un-Trinitarian. He refers to the Father as the one God rather than the Trinity. And he also seems to be avoiding identifying the Trinity as a singular being. However, I think this is simply untraditional language that is emphasizing the triple hypostatic nature of the Godhead while he affirms that the three hypostases are of the same divinity. So I think he is using potentially problematic language while not necessarily meaning something heretical by it.

Very good. Yes, I don't think Fr. Hopko is un-Trinitarian, but his definition is maybe a little careless or overstated. I think I got his point which is what I liked, but his statements do sound un-Trinitarian without the other qualifiers.
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militantsparrow
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militantsparrow
« Reply #408 on: April 30, 2010, 09:15:46 PM »

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I'm looking for the truth as proclaimed by the whole Church for all times everywhere.

Then you're looking for something that will never be found, as St. Vincent of Lerins must have realised about his formula. Wink  Regarding Met. Kallistos, I haven't listened to what you linked to yet, but I expect to do so tomorrow.

Smiley Well not in this lifetime, but I feel quite obligated to keep looking.
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #409 on: May 01, 2010, 02:41:31 PM »

I agree that this definition does seem problematic. Many post Vatican II apologists seem to say that the teaching is "from the Father...through the Son" but traditionalists would argue that the correct interpretation is that which you quoted from the Catechism.

I don't take issue with those affiliated with the Vatican taking a more Orthodox position, which they are doing when they make these sorts of revisions under the guise of "clarifications." It's always more convenient to say "That's not what we meant" than to say "We were wrong and you were right."

The Second Council of Lyon (1274) clearly decrees:

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On the Supreme Trinity and the Catholic Faith

1. We profess faithfully and devotedly that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration. This the holy Roman church, mother and mistress of all the faithful, has till now professed, preached and taught; this she firmly holds, preaches, professes and teaches; this is the unchangeable and true belief of the orthodox fathers and doctors, Latin and Greek alike. But because some, on account of ignorance of the said indisputable truth, have fallen into various errors, we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one.

That is the Vatican's traditional position, and the catechism still confirms it, despite the positive and salvific effects the dialogues with the True Church have had on their understanding.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 02:44:40 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #410 on: May 01, 2010, 02:54:40 PM »

In your opinion, what will replace the dying patriarchate?

Whatever needs to. Constantinople is not the New Jerusalem, and His Kingdom is not of this world. Rome fell away, and so can New Rome. No one is exempt, least of all me, who has not even yet tasted His most precious Body and Blood. Pray for me.

However, I hope that a strong zeal and conviction for the Orthodox Catholic faith will return to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. It was an unfortunate series of events which led to the current situation, and it seems to me that Ecumenical Patriarchate would have been better off if it had retained its control over the Orthodox Church in the Hellenic Republic. I know things couldn't have happened this way, it's just unfortunate. He's a shepherd without a flock, unless he reinterprets the canons to put everyone in the "barbarian" lands under his immediate jurisdiction. Then he suddenly goes from being in charge of several thousand souls to millions.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 02:55:00 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
militantsparrow
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« Reply #411 on: May 01, 2010, 03:41:40 PM »

He's a shepherd without a flock, unless he reinterprets the canons to put everyone in the "barbarian" lands under his immediate jurisdiction. Then he suddenly goes from being in charge of several thousand souls to millions.

But then he would be making himself a Pope of sorts wouldn't he?
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #412 on: May 01, 2010, 05:21:24 PM »

He's a shepherd without a flock, unless he reinterprets the canons to put everyone in the "barbarian" lands under his immediate jurisdiction. Then he suddenly goes from being in charge of several thousand souls to millions.
But then he would be making himself a Pope of sorts wouldn't he?

Well therein lies the problem, because that's precisely what he's trying to do. But these matters are internal disputes of governance within the Church, and you shouldn't trouble yourself with them as an inquirer. My point was simply that these days not everyone considers the "First Among Equals" as some bastion of Orthodoxy when he waxes poetic about the supposed "other lung." Many of us see other motives that have little to do with traditional ecclesiology or theology, and far more to do with political opportunism. Of course then you have that whole problem of "Who is some sinful catechumen to question the Ecumenical Patriarch?", and to some extent I agree. All I am relating is my observations over the last couple of years.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 05:22:19 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
deusveritasest
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« Reply #413 on: May 05, 2010, 11:55:04 AM »

As for Met. Ware and the OrthoWiki article, why are they more authoritative than Sts. Photius and Mark of Ephesus?
I just wanted to second this question.

Are there not Orthodox saints that shared with Met. Ware the same understanding of the Filioque?

Maximus the Confessors would appear to have, however it's important to note that he came before both Photios and Mark, and that Rome's definition of the filioque did progress in that time. I can't think of any significant Fathers after the time of Photios who shared that opinion.

Right. I did not want to outright defend the Filioque by my statement, but only point out that it is not simply Metropolitan Ware who shared the idea that the Filioque was not outright heretical.

I tend to agree with that opinion. And I think Protopresbyter Thomas Hopko says something to this effect as well in his essay on the papacy.
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« Reply #414 on: August 19, 2010, 02:09:19 PM »

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    * It seems clear that Rome held a place of primacy in the pre-schism Church.

Welp, only up untill Constantine moved the capital to Constantinople.. The primacy of Rome was due to Peter and had a lot to do with Rome being the capital of the Empire till the IVth century.


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    * It appears that Rome even held a place of “presidency” (i.e., “presiding in love.”)

Yes, there were many bishops of Rome who presided in love and with humility...
 
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   * Rome appeared to be the sounding board for orthodoxy.

On many ocassions it did..

   
     
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* The Orthodox Church seemed to stop looking towards Rome as a sounding board for orthodoxy not because it was un-orthodox, but because of political issues.
    * If Rome presided in love, held the presidency, and was used as the litmus test for orthodoxy, why would the Eastern churches abandon it due to political issues.

Things started to ruin with the falling of the Roman Empire, yes because of the political reasons.. The patriarch of Rome started to induce new roles unto himself and exalt his position...

 

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