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Author Topic: My daughter HATES Orthodoxy & I only have -3 more yrs w/her. Any advise?  (Read 8474 times) Average Rating: 0
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ms.hoorah
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« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2010, 10:21:55 PM »

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2010, 10:22:44 PM »

None of the three previous posters that believe your daughter should stop attending church have ever raised teenagers.  

I disagree. I raised myself during my teen years, and they still haven't worn off completely! My mother didn't want to have anything to do with me, and my father was too busy working to look after me. I was a latch-key kid living in my father's house. I have raised a teenager--myself! I don't feel I did too great a job, and I feel you can see some of that evidence in how I used to act around here, but I know well how much young people seek out God. You can't force something as important as religion on a young person because it's sometimes like trying to force a cork in an active volcano. You may have turned out alright, but one size does not fit all. I went to catholic school, where religion was forced on me. It drove me to Paganism. If it had not been forced on me, but instead was encouraged with gentleness, kindness and patience, my spiritual life might not have been so chaotic.
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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2010, 10:31:36 PM »

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I'm sure that verse was very wise and applicable when it was given, when there was what amounted to a theocratic government, and a culture which would ostracize and punish you (possibly even being put to death) for spiritual rebellion and "going after strange gods". Things have changed a bit since then...
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2010, 10:36:26 PM »

It's a normal part of human development to branch out in your teen years and begin to develop independence- this often manifests itself in rejection of the norms and values under which one was raised. I've seen parents who force their teenagers to accept church life at this stage, only to have their teens resent their parents for years to come and equate the authoritarianism of their parents with a cruel, authoritarian God. I've known plenty of young women in their 20s who, raised in this type of environment, completely abandoned their parents' path and turn to drugs and ardent atheism. Fact is, you can't train someone to love God in this type of fearful environment.

The whole "you live under my roof, I feed you, I clothe you, you will accept all of my rules, etc. etc." mentality is so strange and foreign to me. I've never known it to create anything other than mistrust, fear, and sometimes hatred.

I'd be interested to know when the OP and her daughter converted to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2010, 10:39:02 PM »

When something as important as religion and spirituality is forced on teens, it can make them feel that you don't care what they're going through. Kinda like "It's MY way, so shut up and follow!" Young people have enough chaos to figure out without having something so private as religion being shoved at them. Maybe the OP knows better than her daughter, but it's her daughter that largely needs to figure these things out for herself, with her mother and loved ones guiding her, not forcing her.
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2010, 10:39:12 PM »

What if her daughter refused to not cook meth or refused to not inject heroin?

In parenting, some things are non-negotiable.  Kids must go to church and follow Christ’s teachings. They must go to school and study. They must stay away from drugs and sex.  They must do their share of chores.  Parents can negotiate with kids on small issues.

Marina, Go talk with your priest and many parents in your church.  If you give in on this issue, you will find that your daughter will demand that you give in on many other issues. Remember that you are the parent.

Well, we will probably never agree since while I agree children must go to school and study, I don't believe they have to go to Church.  If they believe Orthodoxy is bunk, believe Christianity is bunk or believe any sort of theism is bunk, it is up to them to find their spiritual path or lack there of.  If she doesn't believe that her mother's spiritual beliefs are true, she shouldn't have them forced down her throat.  Should she be respectful of them?  Of course, but there is no reason she should have to agree with them any more than she should have to conform to her parent's political beliefs.  Let her figure out who she is and what she believes.  If she chooses to look into Orthodoxy down the road, great; if she doesn't, great.
My son loves going to church but hates going to school. One year, he missed 20 days of school with fake illnesses. Children don't know what is best. When they are adults they can then choose to decide if they want to go to church or not.
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2010, 10:46:31 PM »

Maybe in the case of the original poster, she may need to find a different Orthodox Church. My nephews would rather attend the Orthodox parish we attend for various reasons. Maybe the parish is too focused on ethnicity. The priest may be out of touch with young people. The right parish can make the difference. My children beg us to take them to church.
Public school, on the other hand, leaves a bad taste in their mouth. The boy's Catholic school for my older son is a much better fit.

The best type of Orthodox parish is the parish that is actively helping the less fortunate. It is not enough just to attend Divine Liturgy. We receive from Christ on Sunday and then we must find a way to take what we have been given to help those around us in a variety of ways.
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« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2010, 10:54:06 PM »

Oddly enough, I think Brigham Young University is onto something!

http://education.byu.edu/youcandothis/church_kids_dont_want_to_go.html

Some nice excerpts:

"Children will be more likely to return to full religious activity if they feel loved and supported--regardless of their choice to attend church or not.
Ultimately the choice to return has to be their own. If our children are not receiving the positive influences the church has to offer, the positive influence of family becomes that much more important."

"Think of yourself as a missionary called to convert your child. Think of tactics a missionary would use: building a relationship of trust, inviting consistently, praying together, and so on. Think also of tactics a missionary wouldn’t use: forcing, bribing, or coercing."
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« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2010, 11:00:19 PM »

I've loving and praying for her for years.

I've been trying to instill the Faith in her since our conversion to Orthodoxy.


This particularly caught my attention.  You wrote "since our conversion".  May I ask how old your daughter was at the time, please?  Was she interested in converting (from what if anything?) at the time and since then her erm.. excitement/devotion has faded? Was she willing at the time? Or was it that you converted and brought her along?  Were there significant changes in her life besides going to an EO church such as a move, or loss of relationships with others or changes in home life?  

I am not trying to be nosy, I assure you.  There could be some other parts of her life that are/have been affected.

We have three kids including 2 teenagers (16 and 13) so I have some experience with how they work/think sometimes.

Ebor
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« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2010, 11:06:30 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 
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« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2010, 11:15:05 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 

And you think this will lead your child to love God and you more?
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« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2010, 11:16:53 PM »

My son loves going to church but hates going to school. One year, he missed 20 days of school with fake illnesses. Children don't know what is best. When they are adults they can then choose to decide if they want to go to church or not.
I don't see physically visiting a parish as an essential part of a child's upbringing, while I believe schooling is.  If they wish to and are excited to go to Church, great; but if they don't want to go to Church or don't share the faith of their parents, I don't believe they should be forced to go.
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« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2010, 11:18:54 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 

And you think this will lead your child to love God and you more?
Parenting is tough work.  Your child is not always going to enjoy or love what you need to do as a parent. 
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« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2010, 11:25:29 PM »

I've loving and praying for her for years.

I've been trying to instill the Faith in her since our conversion to Orthodoxy.


This particularly caught my attention.  You wrote "since our conversion".  May I ask how old your daughter was at the time, please?  Was she interested in converting (from what if anything?) at the time and since then her erm.. excitement/devotion has faded? Was she willing at the time? Or was it that you converted and brought her along?  Were there significant changes in her life besides going to an EO church such as a move, or loss of relationships with others or changes in home life?  

I am not trying to be nosy, I assure you.  There could be some other parts of her life that are/have been affected.

We have three kids including 2 teenagers (16 and 13) so I have some experience with how they work/think sometimes.

Ebor
Ebor is asking about displaced feelings, perhaps anger.  It is none of our business, but you might want to evaluate if your daughter's hatred of the Church is displaced anger or a displaced hatred of some other event/object in which you are involved.
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« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2010, 11:28:10 PM »

In a way, I think it's even more important to be gentle with our approach with Church, whereas we can be quite forceful about schooling. It's the law, after all. And really, most of us end up hating school; if we didn't start out that way. But as long as we learned while we were there so that we could make informed decisions about our futures and further education. However, should we risk forcing the issue with Church in the same way, to have someone end up hating Church even more. Isn't this situation a little more far reaching? Our children need to know that we are there when they need us, and need us they so often do in those later teenage years. But if we have created a wedge between us regarding faith matters, who do they turn to when they need someone sensible, if they resent and perhaps hate us for forcing something they should be left to decide for themselves?

BTW, is someone of 15 years old still a child?
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« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2010, 11:28:57 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 

And you think this will lead your child to love God and you more?
Parenting is tough work.  Your child is not always going to enjoy or love what you need to do as a parent. 


This presupposes that the parent has a correct understanding of what the child should be doing. Good luck.
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« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2010, 11:31:21 PM »

My rules that I learned from my parents-  If she lives in your house, eats your food, and uses your electricity, she follows your rules.  If the family goes to church, she should go to church with you....no exceptions.  You are the parent; be the parent.

As a 19-year-old rebellious guy I have to state it is the worst argument parents can use.

I think Ms. Hoorah's point is that obedience to one's parents is not up for argument or debate.

Selam
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« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2010, 11:33:13 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 

And you think this will lead your child to love God and you more?
Parenting is tough work.  Your child is not always going to enjoy or love what you need to do as a parent. 


This presupposes that the parent has a correct understanding of what the child should be doing. Good luck.

Desiring the spiritual wellfare of our children indicates a "correct understanding" in my opinion.

Selam
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« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2010, 11:35:00 PM »

Quote
BTW, is someone of 15 years old still a child?

I think that's a good question. I don't know about other countries and cultures, but here in America people start being allowed important responsibilities in their teens. Someone can join the military at age 17, get a drivers license at age 16, etc. I started working summer jobs at age 14, and was sometimes responsible for my own transportation for getting to the jobs (usually a bike). Obviously each person is going to mature differently, but I wouldn't normally think of a 15 year old as a child any longer.
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« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2010, 11:37:07 PM »

^I agree with Tamara's statement that children do not know what is best for them. I also agree that the OP's child might be happier at another parish.  Perhaps one with more teens.  

Setting a rule that our family goes to church (because we need to thank and worship our very good God) is not in any way abusive. Removing privileges for refusing to go to church is also not abusive. 

And you think this will lead your child to love God and you more?
Parenting is tough work.  Your child is not always going to enjoy or love what you need to do as a parent. 


This presupposes that the parent has a correct understanding of what the child should be doing. Good luck.

Desiring the spiritual wellfare of our children indicates a "correct understanding" in my opinion.

Selam

Pat Robertson's idea of "spiritual welfare"? The Branch Dividians' idea of "spiritual welfare"? A hardline, fear-filled "Orthodox" understanding of "spiritual welfare"?   Serious mistakes can be made despite good intentions.
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« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2010, 11:42:54 PM »

Quote
BTW, is someone of 15 years old still a child?

I think that's a good question. I don't know about other countries and cultures, but here in America people start being allowed important responsibilities in their teens. Someone can join the military at age 17, get a drivers license at age 16, etc. I started working summer jobs at age 14, and was sometimes responsible for my own transportation for getting to the jobs (usually a bike). Obviously each person is going to mature differently, but I wouldn't normally think of a 15 year old as a child any longer.

Yes, I was thinking that by that age one would be facing the stage that they were going to have to respect another *person's* decisions; not "their child's". Just because someone is our offspring doesn't mean that they are going to always see eye to eye with us --- if only!!  laugh We can train them so far and then we have to let them take over, learning to walk on their own - and perhaps making distastrous decisions in the process. But isn't that all part of life? I can't agree with the "you live under my roof, you do as I say" approach. At some point one has to recognise that there is another thinking person in the relationship. 
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« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2010, 11:46:13 PM »

Desiring the spiritual wellfare of our children indicates a "correct understanding" in my opinion.

Selam

A Protestant parent likely has their child's spiritual welfare in mind, but would likely have the same reaction if their child said they hated Protestantism and was looking into Orthodoxy.  Of course, that child would, on this forum, not be told to obey their parents without question and stick with their family's faith, but rather to respect their parents while travelling towards the "True Faith" and not be discouraged if their parents protest.  Maybe she doesn't view Orthodoxy as the Truth, in which case, she shouldn't be expected to submit to it nor be discouraged from finding her own spiritually beneficial path (which may lead back to Orthodoxy or not).
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« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2010, 11:46:47 PM »

Marina,

First of all, my prayers are with you. There are no easy answers or easy solutions. We can all offer you good advice and sound biblical principles, but only God really knows the situation with your daughter.

A couple of thoughts:

1) Ask your Priest if he knows of some people your daughter's age who embrace their faith and could be a positive influence on her. At her age, I am guessing that she is more open to what her peers say than to what those in "authority" have to say.

2) Try not to make Church seem like a chore or punishment. Catechize her as best you can. We hate what we do not understand, and thereby we become prejudiced towards it. Start with simple things like the homily. Discuss the Priest's homilies with her, and do so by applying the message to you, not to her. This will help her to see you less as an authority figure trying to tell her what to do, and more as a person who also struggles with sin and the problems of life themselves. Over time she will come to realize that Orthodoxy is not something you are forcing on her, but rather something you deeply desire to share with her.

But I would nevertheless remain firm in your role as a parent. She will have plenty of time when she leaves your home to "discover herself." But she is still your child now, and she needs abundant love and consistent discipline.

You may want to try doing something fun every Sunday after Church. Take her out to lunch or for coffe or ice cream. Take her to a movie, or whatever. This will help your daughter to associate Church with your love for her and your desire to spend time with her. Eventually I believe she will begin to view Church in a positive manner.

Above all, have faith and hope in God. Smiley

Selam

 
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« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2010, 11:49:40 PM »

Desiring the spiritual wellfare of our children indicates a "correct understanding" in my opinion.

Selam

A Protestant parent likely has their child's spiritual welfare in mind, but would likely have the same reaction if their child said they hated Protestantism and was looking into Orthodoxy.  Of course, that child would, on this forum, not be told to obey their parents without question and stick with their family's faith, but rather to respect their parents while travelling towards the "True Faith" and not be discouraged if their parents protest.  Maybe she doesn't view Orthodoxy as the Truth, in which case, she shouldn't be expected to submit to it nor be discouraged from finding her own spiritually beneficial path (which may lead back to Orthodoxy or not).

I agree.

Selam
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« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2010, 11:52:13 PM »

Desiring the spiritual wellfare of our children indicates a "correct understanding" in my opinion.

Selam

A Protestant parent likely has their child's spiritual welfare in mind, but would likely have the same reaction if their child said they hated Protestantism and was looking into Orthodoxy.  Of course, that child would, on this forum, not be told to obey their parents without question and stick with their family's faith, but rather to respect their parents while travelling towards the "True Faith" and not be discouraged if their parents protest.  Maybe she doesn't view Orthodoxy as the Truth, in which case, she shouldn't be expected to submit to it nor be discouraged from finding her own spiritually beneficial path (which may lead back to Orthodoxy or not).

Exactly!!!
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« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2010, 11:52:36 PM »

So...at what age are you guys going to let your offspring decide if they want to go to school? At what age do they not need to follow your rules and they can start a meth lab in the basement?
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« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2010, 11:55:00 PM »

So...at what age are you guys going to let your offspring decide if they want to go to school? At what age do they not need to follow your rules and they can start a meth lab in the basement?

There's a color you should look into-  gray. It lies somewhere between turning tricks for meth and achieving theosis.
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« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2010, 11:56:30 PM »

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.


Things have changed a bit since then...

"Things" have changed, but people haven't.  Consider it axiomatic that this verse, given to us by our Lord, still remains true.  We still suffer the consequences of the Fall.  

But let me speak to this verse on a more personal level.  I was raised a Christian, did the rebellion thing (converting to Islam for ten years!!).  Glory to God, I have returned, the Prodigal son, back into the arms of Christ and His Church.  But, before that, I too was bored to death with Christianity until I just couldn't stomach it any longer and said goodbye.  I owe it to my parents for instilling Christianity in me.  
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 11:58:16 PM »

So...at what age are you guys going to let your offspring decide if they want to go to school? At what age do they not need to follow your rules and they can start a meth lab in the basement?

Education is compulsory to some age. Drug manufacturing is illegal. Being an agnostic is not.
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« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 11:59:54 PM »

So...at what age are you guys going to let your offspring decide if they want to go to school?

Like if they want to drop out of school and tour the U.S. in a rock band or something? Probably 16. Maybe 17 if the band doesn't have a capable front man.

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At what age do they not need to follow your rules and they can start a meth lab in the basement?

I don't have a basement.
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« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2010, 12:03:46 AM »

^Haha....we will see.  You have darling little girls.  You will be protective!
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« Reply #76 on: January 19, 2010, 12:09:28 AM »

My son loves going to church but hates going to school. One year, he missed 20 days of school with fake illnesses. Children don't know what is best. When they are adults they can then choose to decide if they want to go to church or not.
I don't see physically visiting a parish as an essential part of a child's upbringing, while I believe schooling is.  If they wish to and are excited to go to Church, great; but if they don't want to go to Church or don't share the faith of their parents, I don't believe they should be forced to go.
I would disagree. Attending Church is vital to the spiritual development of your child. Receiving the Holy gifts is essential to spiritual growth. Schooling is not essential in the same way as spiritual development. Spiritual development is a gift that you have with you through eternity while schooling is only necessary for our earthly life. Anyway, according to your line of thought if a parent forces a child to go to school against his will, how does that help him to love it? Why force one thing but not the other? Anyway, force is not necessary if you use the right parental tactics in either case.
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« Reply #77 on: January 19, 2010, 12:31:45 AM »

I would disagree. Attending Church is vital to the spiritual development of your child. Receiving the Holy gifts is essential to spiritual growth. Schooling is not essential in the same way as spiritual development. Spiritual development is a gift that you have with you through eternity while schooling is only necessary for our earthly life.
Well, we are always going to disagree on this.  I believe someone can develop spiritually outside of an established Church.  I find looking up into the cosmos on a clear night to be more of a 'religious experience' than any Liturgy or Mass.

Anyway, according to your line of thought if a parent forces a child to go to school against his will, how does that help him to love it? Why force one thing but not the other? Anyway, force is not necessary if you use the right parental tactics in either case.
No, the State forces a child to attend school until a certain age, whether the parents agree or not.  I view schooling as essential, but if at the legal drop-out age they choose to do so, by law, they have every right to.  The State also protects the freedom of conscience and religion and the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression.  If the individual does not adhere to nor believe a certain faith is True, they are protected by the State to pursue and express whatever faith or lack of faith they choose.
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« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2010, 12:37:27 AM »

I would disagree. Attending Church is vital to the spiritual development of your child. Receiving the Holy gifts is essential to spiritual growth. Schooling is not essential in the same way as spiritual development. Spiritual development is a gift that you have with you through eternity while schooling is only necessary for our earthly life.
Well, we are always going to disagree on this.  I believe someone can develop spiritually outside of an established Church.  I find looking up into the cosmos on a clear night to be more of a 'religious experience' than any Liturgy or Mass.
Are you an Orthodox Christian or another type of Christian? If you are not, why are you replying to an Orthodox Christian mother who is asking for advice from other Christians? Just wondering?

Anyway, according to your line of thought if a parent forces a child to go to school against his will, how does that help him to love it? Why force one thing but not the other? Anyway, force is not necessary if you use the right parental tactics in either case.
Quote
No, the State forces a child to attend school until a certain age, whether the parents agree or not.  I view schooling as essential, but if at the legal drop-out age they choose to do so, by law, they have every right to.  The State also protects the freedom of conscience and religion and the freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression.  If the individual does not adhere to nor believe a certain faith is True, they are protected by the State to pursue and express whatever faith or lack of faith they choose.

Yes, the state forces you to go school just as parents have it within their legal right as parents to bring their children to church until the child is of legal age.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 12:38:02 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2010, 12:42:32 AM »

Dear Marina,

You have to realize that some of the advice you will be receiving on this thread will be coming from posters who may or may not be Christian. Some may still be in the searching frame of mind but others may be happy with their agnostic beliefs. Keep that in mind when you read the threads.


To other posters on this thread:

And I think anyone who is going to give an Orthodox Christian mother religious advice should be honest about their own faith or lack of it so she can have a frame of reference when she ponders your comments.
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« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2010, 12:44:29 AM »

Dear Marina,

You have to realize that some of the advice you will be receiving on this thread will be coming from posters who may or may not be Christian. Some may still be in the searching frame of mind but others may be happy with their agnostic beliefs. Keep that in mind when you read the threads.


To other posters on this thread:

And I think anyone who is going to give an Orthodox Christian mother religious advice should be honest about their own faith or lack of it so she can have a frame of reference when she ponders your comments.

Good point. I'm very Orthodox. Probably more Orthodox than Tamara. You should listen to me.
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« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2010, 12:48:13 AM »

I would disagree. Attending Church is vital to the spiritual development of your child. Receiving the Holy gifts is essential to spiritual growth. Schooling is not essential in the same way as spiritual development. Spiritual development is a gift that you have with you through eternity while schooling is only necessary for our earthly life.
Well, we are always going to disagree on this.  I believe someone can develop spiritually outside of an established Church.  I find looking up into the cosmos on a clear night to be more of a 'religious experience' than any Liturgy or Mass.
Are you a Wiccan?
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« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2010, 12:51:10 AM »

Dear Marina,

You have to realize that some of the advice you will be receiving on this thread will be coming from posters who may or may not be Christian. Some may still be in the searching frame of mind but others may be happy with their agnostic beliefs. Keep that in mind when you read the threads.


To other posters on this thread:

And I think anyone who is going to give an Orthodox Christian mother religious advice should be honest about their own faith or lack of it so she can have a frame of reference when she ponders your comments.

I know the OP's frame of reference; I am also a single parent, albeit not of a teenaged child nor am I a convert to Orthodox Christianity.  If other posters are single parents, regardless of faith belief, they are entitled to their opinions as long as they are respectful and not malicious per the forum rules.   police
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« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2010, 01:02:12 AM »

Are you an Orthodox Christian or another type of Christian? If you are not, why are you replying to an Orthodox Christian mother who is asking for advice from other Christians? Just wondering?
On paper, I suppose I'm still a Roman Catholic.  A Christian, I'd say so, though I am sure others will disagree.  Currently alternating attendance between an Orthodox parish, an Roman Catholic parish and an Anglican parish though my time to do so is sparse.  Until I have a better label, maybe Christian humanist is best?

Yes, the state forces you to go school just as parents have it within their legal right as parents to bring their children to church until the child is of legal age.
And a child has a Charter-protected right to choose their beliefs and faith.  A parent can drag a child to Church if they wish, but they have no right to try and bludgeon them into believing something they openly choose not to.

Are you a Wiccan?
Not at all.  I just truly relate to Fr. Alexander Men when he said, "I find more meaning in the wing of a bird and in the branch of a tree than in five hundred icons..."  I find the natural world (especially space) to be an amazing source of beauty, inspiration, meaning and peace.
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« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2010, 01:09:19 AM »

I would disagree. Attending Church is vital to the spiritual development of your child. Receiving the Holy gifts is essential to spiritual growth. Schooling is not essential in the same way as spiritual development. Spiritual development is a gift that you have with you through eternity while schooling is only necessary for our earthly life.
Well, we are always going to disagree on this.  I believe someone can develop spiritually outside of an established Church.  I find looking up into the cosmos on a clear night to be more of a 'religious experience' than any Liturgy or Mass.
Are you a Wiccan?

What does it matter? One doesn't have to be Pagan for nature to touch one's soul more than liturgy.
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« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2010, 01:11:30 AM »

Are you an Orthodox Christian or another type of Christian? If you are not, why are you replying to an Orthodox Christian mother who is asking for advice from other Christians? Just wondering?
On paper, I suppose I'm still a Roman Catholic.  A Christian, I'd say so, though I am sure others will disagree.  Currently alternating attendance between an Orthodox parish, an Roman Catholic parish and an Anglican parish though my time to do so is sparse.  Until I have a better label, maybe Christian humanist is best?

Yes, the state forces you to go school just as parents have it within their legal right as parents to bring their children to church until the child is of legal age.

And a child has a Charter-protected right to choose their beliefs and faith.  A parent can drag a child to Church if they wish, but they have no right to try and bludgeon them into believing something they openly choose not to.

Are you a Wiccan?
Not at all.  I just truly relate to Fr. Alexander Men when he said, "I find more meaning in the wing of a bird and in the branch of a tree than in five hundred icons..."  I find the natural world (especially space) to be an amazing source of beauty, inspiration, meaning and peace.
Many feel this way, but I hope that you and your offspring will "relate" more to the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ.
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« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2010, 01:12:46 AM »

Dear Marina,

You have to realize that some of the advice you will be receiving on this thread will be coming from posters who may or may not be Christian. Some may still be in the searching frame of mind but others may be happy with their agnostic beliefs. Keep that in mind when you read the threads.


To other posters on this thread:

And I think anyone who is going to give an Orthodox Christian mother religious advice should be honest about their own faith or lack of it so she can have a frame of reference when she ponders your comments.

Good point. I'm very Orthodox. Probably more Orthodox than Tamara. You should listen to me.

This site is called: Orthodox Christianity.net
It is only fair to let the OP know if you believe in Christ or not if you want to give her advice on a spiritual problem.
She could go to any yahoo site and get all kinds of advice from a variety of philosophies if that is what she wanted but she came to an Orthodox Christian site in the Orthodox family forum with hopes of getting advice from other believers.
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« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2010, 01:14:07 AM »

Are you an Orthodox Christian or another type of Christian? If you are not, why are you replying to an Orthodox Christian mother who is asking for advice from other Christians? Just wondering?
On paper, I suppose I'm still a Roman Catholic.  A Christian, I'd say so, though I am sure others will disagree.  Currently alternating attendance between an Orthodox parish, an Roman Catholic parish and an Anglican parish though my time to do so is sparse.  Until I have a better label, maybe Christian humanist is best?

Yes, the state forces you to go school just as parents have it within their legal right as parents to bring their children to church until the child is of legal age.

And a child has a Charter-protected right to choose their beliefs and faith.  A parent can drag a child to Church if they wish, but they have no right to try and bludgeon them into believing something they openly choose not to.

Are you a Wiccan?
Not at all.  I just truly relate to Fr. Alexander Men when he said, "I find more meaning in the wing of a bird and in the branch of a tree than in five hundred icons..."  I find the natural world (especially space) to be an amazing source of beauty, inspiration, meaning and peace.
Many feel this way, but I hope that you and your offspring will "relate" more to the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ.

Those things are meaningless without the idea of the world being created as essentially good.
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« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2010, 01:19:51 AM »

Are you an Orthodox Christian or another type of Christian? If you are not, why are you replying to an Orthodox Christian mother who is asking for advice from other Christians? Just wondering?
On paper, I suppose I'm still a Roman Catholic.  A Christian, I'd say so, though I am sure others will disagree.  Currently alternating attendance between an Orthodox parish, an Roman Catholic parish and an Anglican parish though my time to do so is sparse.  Until I have a better label, maybe Christian humanist is best?

Yes, the state forces you to go school just as parents have it within their legal right as parents to bring their children to church until the child is of legal age.

And a child has a Charter-protected right to choose their beliefs and faith.  A parent can drag a child to Church if they wish, but they have no right to try and bludgeon them into believing something they openly choose not to.

Are you a Wiccan?
Not at all.  I just truly relate to Fr. Alexander Men when he said, "I find more meaning in the wing of a bird and in the branch of a tree than in five hundred icons..."  I find the natural world (especially space) to be an amazing source of beauty, inspiration, meaning and peace.
Many feel this way, but I hope that you and your offspring will "relate" more to the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ.

Those things are meaningless without the idea of the world being created as essentially good.

Why is that?
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« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2010, 01:21:30 AM »

Many feel this way, but I hope that you and your offspring will "relate" more to the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ.

Do you think agnostics (I'm not posting about anyone precisely) can take the Eucharist 'neither to their judgment, nor to their condemnation'? I doubt.
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