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Author Topic: I"m interested in orthodoxy, so try to convince me to become one.  (Read 11124 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2010, 02:17:19 PM »

Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

But weren't the Melki thoroughly latinized until the renovations in the eastern rites following Vatican II?
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2010, 02:18:27 PM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church, without Old Rome.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2010, 02:31:17 PM »

I can't decide if I want to be western or eastern catholic.

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church, without Old Rome.

Very true, and Alonso, we have ecclesiastical/administrative unity as well as unity of faith. You just fail to see this because you think of administrative unity as being under one head of a church (the Pope in this case). Sure in America we have jurisdictional differences, but we are still all one Church in faith and in administration. Also, just because someone is/is not of a certain race, doesn't mean he should follow his ancestors. I have Native American blood in me, and yet I don't worship in the way they did. We are to follow the TRUTH, not the example of our ancestors. The truth lays in the Orthodox Church, not in blood & ancestry.

Also, just because our Church suffered greatly under the Muslims doesn't make us any less right. You appear to live in a world where you think that the right Church converts all. I'm sorry, but the Roman Catholic Church sure isn't a good example of that, especially after the murder of thousands of natives in the Americas, as well as murder of thousands of others who refused to convert. Our Church doesn't force conversions, many people were lost to the Muslims because the Muslims DID force conversions, some did indeed convert to Islam to avoid death, but others didn't, and some fled. The true Christian attitude towards adversity does not lead to success in a worldly sense. We are to choose to die (and thus will live) if we are told to renounce Christ. If people do this, then obviously the numbers of Orthodox is going to decrease as we've seen time and time again. The number of faithful in the Roman Catholic Church is certainly NOT an indicator of it's validity and truth. If it weren't for the Conquistadors and others, I'd be willing to bet there would be far less Roman Catholics in Latin & South America than there are today.
I'm not saying the Roman Catholic Church is violent, but it, like most other religions, has had a violent past that cannot be ignored. So just because our Church suffered greatly under the Turks and thus, there are few left in Asia, that does NOT mean that our Church is untrue and erring. If you want to use that argument, then it's completely fair to bring up the forced conversions to the Roman Catholic Church in Latin America and South America, because this is exactly what the Turks were doing to the Orthodox.

NOTE: I only bring this up, because of Alonso's previous post (in this thread) in Spanish argues against Orthodoxy based on the fact that Islam took over Asia.

Alonso, from what I was able to understand from your post (the long one in spanish), you appear to be trying to convince Christianus that the Roman Catholic Church is the real Church he should be in, and not the Orthodox Church. I'm sorry, but I cannot stand for this, especially on a forum that is dedicated to Orthodoxy. I'm sorry if I'm breaking any forum rules by this post, but I just cannot let him publically try to sway someone away from thinking about Orthodoxy on an Orthodox forum.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 02:48:34 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
FatherGiryus
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« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2010, 02:52:59 PM »

Nowadays, Melki is used to describe "Byzantine Rite Catholics" who are descendents of Orthodox who broke with the Patriarchate of Antioch to seek the protection from Rome during the rather bad latter days of the Ottomans.  They are different from Lateens who practice the Western Rite and Maronites who were a completely different sect that was absorbed around the same time and are found primarily in Lebanon.

Prior to the schism, Melki was used to describe Byzantines who remained loyal to the Chalcedonian Churches (who had Imperial Roman patronage) as opposed to the Non-Chalcedonian Churches (who formed dual Patriarchates in Antioch, Jerusalem and [depending on how you look at it] Alexandria.  For some reason, when the Melkite Schism occured, the Orthodox kept the Roum and the Roman Catholics got the Melki, sort of like when a divorce occurs and the husband gets the sewing machine and the wife gets the chain saw.

But weren't the Melki thoroughly latinized until the renovations in the eastern rites following Vatican II?

That all depends upon who you ask.  Wink

Frankly, it matters little.  What's importann is understanding how people look at themselves now.

For example, if you are a priest and someone of Middle Eastern origin gets into communion line and you are not sure if he is Orthodox or not (based on our understanding that "Orthodox" means "Church-of-Seven-Ecumenical-Councils-and-Member-of-the-Constantinople-Communion"), you should not ask him, "Are you Orthodox?"  After all, he can honestly answer 'yes' as far as his understanding of what the word means while not being in communion with your church.

Asking "Who is your bishop?" isn't helpful either unless you are familiar with which bishop is where in the Old Countries, which is hard enough to track here.

Rather, you would be better off asking, "Are you Roum?" (which is pronounced like 'room').  Then you will find out for sure.

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« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2010, 03:09:05 PM »


 but we are still all one Church in faith and in administration.

Can you explain this unity?
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88Devin12
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« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2010, 03:29:46 PM »

Well, we all share the same beliefs, handed down to us by the Apostles, and our administrative unity comes through being in communion with one another...

In the case of the Eastern Orthodox Church:

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Orthodox Church of Antioch
Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Orthodox Church of Russia
Orthodox Church of Serbia
Orthodox Church of Romania
Orthodox Church of Bulgaria
Orthodox Church of Georgia
Orthodox Church of Cyprus
Orthodox Church of Greece
Orthodox Church of Poland
Orthodox Church of Albania
Orthodox Church of the Czech lands and Slovakia
Orthodox Church in America

All churches are autocephalous (with the OCA being questioned by some), that is self-governing. Each has defined boundaries, each is governed by a Council of Bishops/Synod with it's Primate. That Primate holds the titles of either: Patriarch, Metropolitan or Archbishop.
However, the sole head of the entire Church is Christ himself.

The churches are in full communion with one another, reflecting a unity of faith and governance. We aren't governed by a single Bishop, though the "first among equals" is the Patriarch of Constantinople (currently His Grace, Patriarch Bartholomew) holds special position, he is not able to make a decision that supercedes or interferes in other churches. (unless the canons state that during a dispute, he must intervene)
This, as it is known, was the original position of the Latin Pope (Patriarch of Rome), however, in the 11th, 12th and 13th Centuries, the Latin Popes began to skew their position more and more and misunderstood their position in the Church. This was partially due to the barbarians and the "Holy" "Roman" "Empire", as well as other factors.

Decisions on important doctrine are decided by councils, which are held with Primates, Bishops, Clergy, etc... in attendance. Thus the decisions made at the Councils are universal across the church. Some Ecumenical Councils saw some churches missing during the discussions, but the decisions were just as universal and true for the whole Church. The wasn't one council where a Bishops declared that his decision was the law, with the other Bishops submitting to him. At all councils, the churches agreed together and the "first among equals" presided, but did NOT dictate nor decide for all of them.

The Orthodox Church is fully united in faith, doctrine, canons, law, administration etc...

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I apologize in advance if any of this is incorrect. This is from what I remember from what I've been taught, as well as what I've read in various literature such as "The Orthodox Church" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 03:38:32 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2010, 03:39:58 PM »

A reminder, for those who "forget" what the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum is:

Beloved in the Lord,

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

In Christ,
Thomas
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2010, 04:48:10 PM »

A reminder, for those who "forget" what the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum is:

Beloved in the Lord,

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

In Christ,
Thomas
Convert Forum Moderator 

My apologies, Fr. George.  I hereby tap-out.
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« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2010, 02:32:43 AM »

No habla espanol Wink
You have some Spanish saints in the orthodox church, 3 from Seville, God how I love that city,
Saint Isidore of Seville, Fulgetius, and Florentius I think.
And it was the Idea of Hosius of Córdoba to start the first ecumenical council.
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/oespain.htm

He had considerable influence over St. Constantine, indeed it was the idea of St. Hosius to call the First Oecumenical Council at Nicea just outside Constantinople in 325, which Council he presided. Not as is sometimes stated, he was firm in his support of St. Athanasius and his opposition to Arianism and for this was imprisoned at the end of his life. He reposed in c. 359 after an extraordinary episcopate of over sixty years and is commemorated in eastern calendars as a confessor on 27 August.

yeah so you have Spanish saints in the orthodox church, Santos españoles, Sancti hispani, which is strange to me, because Spain isn't orthodox anymore, yet it produced alot of saints,according to this list.
I wish that there would be a Latin speaking orthodox church again.
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« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2010, 07:29:06 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
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Christianus
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« Reply #145 on: February 08, 2010, 11:42:17 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
I don't know, I thought that the east hated Romans like Spaniards, Italians, and French people, every now and then, I hear: those latins, those latins said by the orthodox.
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Christianus
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« Reply #146 on: February 08, 2010, 11:47:02 AM »

Um... ok, thanks.  Were you under the impression that I have some kind of grudge against Spanish-speaking peoples or something?  Smiley
I don't know, I thought that the east hated Romans like Spaniards, Italians, and French people, every now and then, I hear: those latins, those latins, or those romans said by the orthodox.
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« Reply #147 on: February 08, 2010, 06:03:29 PM »

I'm a recent convert to Orthodoxy from a Pentecostal church, and believe me, Orthodoxy is a whole EXPERIENCE which takes place within your spirit, and in your thoughts the moment you engage with it...and more so when you are away from it.  Cheesy

I am still learning thing everyday about myself, the Orthodox Church and how I can become more Christ-like.

I am no longer content with just attending church on a Sunday to be hyped-up by the pastors zeal and infectious rhetoric. I don't want to belong to that annoying sense of safety and comfort I used to love.



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